Appendix talk:Proto-Indo-European/ḱwṓ

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Proto-Indo-European *ḱwṓEdit

Is the Hindi word कुत्ता also a descendant? If so, then Bulgarian куче (kuče) must also be a descendant as well. Cf. this research into common words in Bulgarian, Avestan and Sanskrit transmitted via the Eastern Iranian Proto-Bulgarian language, there the author compares Avestan kuti. Ossetian cognate куыдз (kuydz) looks also pretty similar. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 09:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Is Ossetian куыдз/куй really a descendant? My Ossetian dictionary does not go beyond Eastern Iranian *kuti. --Vahagn Petrosyan 09:43, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
To me *ḱwṓ resembles pretty much куыдз. V. I. Abaev lists also the Bulgarian word, Nepali kuti (dog), Kurdish kučak and Latvian kutsa (female dog, сука) and notes that in Old Persian and Persian the sp root is predominant. Why is it then listed here instead of the East Iranian, Hindi and Nepali root?! The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 10:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
Vahagn, I found where we discussed this with Ivan three months ago - here. I shall add it forthwith to the Etymology scriptorium, so that more users can partake of the conversation. He must have looked into some sort of pro-Ugro-Finnic dictionary... Supposed that the Bg. word is of Hungarian origin, how would it end up on the other end of Eurasia, in Nepali and Kurdish? I already quoted modern Bulgarian research, linking the East Iranian words with куче (kuče) through Proto-Bulgarian. And as it is known, Alanians were the closest associates of Proto-Bulgarians, therefore куыдз. Everything sounds sensible and sound. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 10:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian kuče / куче are borrowed from Hungarian kutya (dog) (with historically attested /tj/ > /č/ change). PIE palatovelars such as */ḱ/ cannot yield /k/ in Satem group of languages like Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian (except in a small number of well-known exceptions, and *ḱwon- is not one of them). I am also very skeptical on Ossetian kuydz, which looks very dubious as rest of the Indo-Iranian reflexes have expected word-initial /s/ or /š/. Indo-Aryan *kutta/*kuttā is according to Turner ultimately onomatopoetic in origin [1], hence not PIE. --Ivan Štambuk 14:34, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Ivan, in indorsing Turner's stance you will suggest that all the East Iranian languages + Kurdish + Nepali + Latvian have come to the same word by means of onomatopœetic generation? It turns out that only East Iranian people + Nepalese people + Kurds + Balochi and other Indo-Europæan languages (Latvian) can derive it? So it is ultimately Indo-Europæan? And if it were Ugro-Finnic, it can not have ended up in said Indo-Aryan languages... I really do not see valuable reasons for acceptingt the Ugro-Finnic hypothesis. The Proto-Bulgarians have carried the East Iranian word westwards, have came in contact with Ugro-Finnic tribes, who in their turn had contact with Latvians. This sounds much sounder, and although it is unambiguously promulgated(here: Думата "куче" в съвременния български език е доказано източно-иранска и санскритска, т.е. прабългарска етимология. Нейното множествено число също се образува по начин, различен от този при славянските езици, чрез скито-сарматския суфикс за множественост "-т" - кучета. - The word куче in the modern Bulgarian language is demonstrated to be East Iranian and Sanskrit, id est Proto-Bulgarian etymology. Its plural form is also formed in a way dissimilar to the one in the Slavic languages, through the Scytho-Sarmatic suffix for plurality -t - кучета) by Dr. Tanev from the above research, I abandon for now the hope to insert it into the appendix... Ivan, tell me, how is the plural form of the Serbo-Croatian word? Any other Hungarian loanwords with -t- in the plural? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 15:08, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
SC kuče "puppy" is neuter t-stem, like the general category of neuter t-stems in Common Slavic and OCS, denoting young of an animal or human (obviously generalized and not inherited in this case..). This Proto-Bulgarian stuff (not to mention "Scytho-Sarmatic"..) is really way too ORish to be included.. The word was obviously originally onomatopoetically coined in Indo-Aryan (possibly Indo-Iranian), whence it possibly spread elsewhere, tho I have no idea on the exact relationship to Kurdish and Latvian words you mention (note that Latvian has a regular Satem reflex already listed), but they simply can't get listed unless corroborated by some verifiable evidence (i.e. etymological dictionary or a research paper published in a respectable journal). Note also that there are quite a few Iranian/Indo-Aryan/Indo-Iranian borrowings in Finno-Ugric, but no known borrowings in the opposite direction. --Ivan Štambuk 16:11, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Slavic languages with ps-/p-s or similar words for dogEdit

I wondered whether this /s/ could be proof of these words being derived from this stem, and went to take a look at this page, but they are not here. Now, I still could not miss the fact that the word in Avestan has initial ps-. Looking at the etymology for at least Serbo-Croatian/Bosnian ‹pas›, I also find an Old Slavic word with an initial p-, but that doesn't rule out a possible earlier, pre-Slavic form, I guess. Is there any relation? I'm speculating around the fact that they are satem languages. Skomakar'n 15:16, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Last modified on 4 May 2013, at 15:09