Talk:倭

"倭" and "矮”

The　two share near sound productions and letter shape. Thus some misunderstand the essence of meaning.

1. 矮 : dwarf,short
2. 倭 : docile

Ref. 康熙字典　http://www.kangxizidian.com/kangxi/0109.gif --Lulusuke 04:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, the situation is like that described in w:Wa (Japan)#Etymology. A printed Japanese kanji dictionary I have also says that they are sharing the origin and the meaning of "dwarf, short." The both meanings seem to be OK. --Tohru 08:45, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi !.

1. First, please show your source in detail.
2. sencod, Why do you delete "Old meaning in 康熙字典".

Thank you --Lulusuke 15

53, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

If you want to dispute the sense, talk here, or add {{rfv-sense}} and follow the instructions. Note that it is not terribly useful to have this level of debate over the "common meaning"; the definitions should be for the languages in question. Robert Ullmann 14:35, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

OK I see. But why do you delete my references?

Are neither the references nor grounds important?--Lulusuke 02:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, Lulusuke, we greatly appreciate your contribution. Though you might be right in all aspects, at the moment I'm just not so sure if we should remove the definition. The dictionary I mentioned above is 改訂版 漢字源 [1]. You can see a quoted definition of 倭 from it on a blog [2]. The study of 甲骨文字 was started 100 years after the compilation of 康熙字典, and since then it seems that a considerable part of it has been rethought. Therefore it is not so surprising if you find additional definitions on those modern dictionaries. --Tohru 16:51, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know the Gakken's dictornary. I have and read it. But I've 6 other dictornaries, and they don't say "dwarf, short". And I look Korean and Chinese dictoranries

:: Yes, I know the Gakken's dictionary. I have and read it.

It's very easy and convenience to use online dictionary. But I've another over 10 dictionaries, and they don't say "dwarf, short". And I look Korean and Chinese dictionaries, they also don't say "dwarf, short". To looking and search a dictionary is very important. But to look ONE dictionary may be danger. Thank you. --Lulusuke 02:40, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Look http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~massange/cgi-bin/iroiro.cgi/lingua/zh/wo1.htm --Lulusuke 14:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I understand what you said.

Please show the examples what you addressed as "dwarf,short" in historic literary works and documents. --Lulusuke 02:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I checked several dictionaries, and have not found any reference to a classical Chinese work in which 倭 has a meaning of short. There are some websites that put forth the theory that 倭 came to be associated with the meaning of short, because of the short stature of Japanese (or because of the short knives that the Japanese were famous for at the time). I have not been able to verify this with any ancient works. If anybody finds something, let us know. For now, I'm not including short as a meaning in the Mandarin section. -- A-cai 10:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the "short" or "dwarf" meaning as it is wrong and there is not a single source that support that. If someone has a source about that, please include a link on the talk page.--AsadalEditor (talk) 12:29, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

Negative interpretation when using this word to call modern Japan

Shall we add a usage note that using this word to call modern Japan may be considered negative? Likewise, most Chinese people tend to consider 支那 (w:Shina (word)) negative when calling modern China.--Jusjih 16:15, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

RfV February 2013

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Rfv-sense for "docile" reading, as it's uncited and not in the Unihan database. Bumm13 (talk) 22:17, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Apparently derived from the Shuowen Jiezi definition: "順皃。从人委聲。《詩》曰：“周道倭遟。”" Some interpret (eg. Hanyu Da Zidian) 順 as "along, following, in the same direction as" to explain the quote of Shijing in that definition (倭遲: winding, circuitous), while others explain 順 as "docile, submissive" (see Names of Japan). Wyang (talk) 04:51, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Failed. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 19:33, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

RFV discussion: May 2019–May 2021

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倭

Currently the article 倭 states that the meaning is "dwarf". That is not correct. The meaning is: "submissive, docile, obedient", "bowing; bent over" or “distant” and or was used as the early name of Japanese (Yamato?). This needs to be corrected. I wanted to correct that, but was reverted and it was explained that I have to do a request for verification first. The "dwarf" or "short" meaning is this: 矮 — This unsigned comment was added by AsadalEditor (talk • contribs).

@AsadalEditor: FWIW, The MDBG entry gives a meaning of dwarf for 倭. Meanwhile, the MDBG entry for 矮 gives a meaning of short, but not dwarf. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 20:57, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, Tooironic, Atitarev, Suzukaze-c, Geographyinitiative, RcAlex36, Mar vin kaiser, any other active Chinese editors --

The MDBG and Unihan entries both list "dwarf" as a meaning for this character. My dead-tree copy of the 現代漢語詞典／现代汉语词典 (Xiàndài Hànyǔ Cídiǎn, “Modern Chinese Dictionary”) defines 倭 only as 我国古代称日本 (“Our country's older label for Japan”), so I suspect the "dwarf" sense might be obsolete, or at least archaic.

The nominating editor, AsadalEditor (talk • contribs), appears to have shown up to contest these two entries on April 27, 2019, and then vanished again.

Could any of you weigh in with your expertise? Does our Chinese 倭 entry need updating, perhaps with labels? And does our Chinese 矮 (ǎi) entry need any work?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:04, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

• I would help but I don't currently have access to any professional monolingual hanzi dictionaries. The basic resources I can access don't support the "dwarf" reading. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:17, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

• @Eirikr: The Oxford Chinese Dictionary (牛津英汉汉英词典) defines it as "dwarf" and "short" and gives 倭刀 "short sword" as an example for "short" (though Guoyu Cidian defines 倭刀 as a kind of Japanese sword). I cannot find this sense in other dictionaries (modern or ancient). To me, it seems to be what I've heard this as what people claim to be the "original" meaning of the word, but I'm not sure if we can find actual uses. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:22, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you both. FWIW, my (somewhat fuzzy) memory of past readings into Japanese armaments suggests that Japanese swords in antiquity may have commonly been somewhat shorter than those used on the continent, with the exception of the longer 太刀 (tachi) greatsword used by cavalry. So the gloss of 倭刀 as "short sword" or as "Japanese sword" would both seem to fit.

I did run across the Koolearn site's entry for 倭, which includes a sense for "short, dwarf, dwarfish", but I have no idea as to this resource's provenance, reliability, etc. I see the Kangxi page here, sixth character, but I confess that I cannot read enough of that to glean anything useful. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:42, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Kangxi doesn't seem to have this "short, dwarf" sense either. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:32, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

• RFV failed for "dwarf" and "dwarfish; short". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:10, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

倭黑猩猩

• Good natured, docile (bonobo) climbed higher, it's dwarf tail became almost invisible. Partly because, has failed Wiktionary's verification process

Flāvidus (talk) 01:35, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

RFV discussion: May–June 2022

The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
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倭

Chinese. Rfv-sense: "obedient". Tagged by Dine2016. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:12, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Shuowen gives "順皃" and Guangyun gives "愼皃" (愼 is defined as "遵循；依順" in one of the senses in Hanyu da cidian). So it seems "obedient" may be possible, perhaps with a zh-hd tag? ChromeGames (talk) 00:46, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

@ChromeGames: Thanks. However, I think Shuowen quotes Shijing, where this character is used in the phrase/compound 倭遲. It doesn't seem to mean "obedient", but something like "following/going along" a meandering path. "Obedient" seems to be a misunderstanding of the definitions in Shuowen and Guangyun. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:34, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

• RFV failed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

RFV discussion: February–June 2023

The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
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---

倭

Chinese. Rfv-sense: "dwarf; pygmy" and "dwarfish; short". Previously failed RFV, but readded by @ChromeGames. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:38, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

This is repeated in https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Graphic_pejoratives_in_written_Chinese&oldid=1140826645#History but that also lacks a citation. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 06:18, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

There is 1 non-compound appearance in the Classic of Poetry and another one in the Book of Han. The Shuowen lists defines this term as some kind of appearance at https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&id=31413 . There is more at https://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=%E5%80%AD , with "Unihan definition:dwarf; dwarfish, short". Whatever the definition was in ancient times, the modern definition has narrowed to just "Japanese". Daniel.z.tg (talk) 06:23, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

In retrospect these senses are a lot less cited than I expected, so I think removing them would be fair. At the same time, they are so widely claimed that it feels there ought to be some basis for them. ChromeGames (talk) 16:36, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

The 倭 in Shijing exists in the compound 倭遲／倭迟 (“tortuous and remote”), which is perhaps a disyllabic morpheme, while the definition given in Shuowen is completely unrelated and unattested elsewhere. @ChromeGames: please don't add senses that lack quotations in monolingual dictionaries for Classical Chinese. RcAlex36 (talk) 10:06, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

I suspect the "dwarf" sense is folk etymology that arose from conflation with 矮 (ǎi, “short”). RcAlex36 (talk) 10:14, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

• RFV failed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:24, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

  @Justinrleung: Someone added this again at https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%E5%80%AD&diff=prev&oldid=73227461 . This should also be removed from Wikipedia if you believe that these senses don't exist. Daniel.z.tg (talk) 22:52, 2 June 2023 (UTC)