Talk:女妖

Derivations?

报丧女妖 (bàosāng nǚyāo) - banshee --

That's really more of a derived term, isn't it? -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:21, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's a SoP as well. Chinese doesn't have a term for "banshee", phonetic transliteration is not popular, so they use a SoP description or a term like 女妖 or 妖精, which is close enough. It was wrong to have "banshee" as the main translation of "女妖". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 19:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

RFV

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CMN entry added by our obsessive anon. The ZH WT entry at zh:女妖 has RU ведьма (vedma) as a translation, which we have listed as meaning witch; the anon seems to think this equates to banshee. Is our ведьма (vedʹma) entry incomplete? Is the ZH WT entry's translation table incomplete? Is this anon completely incompetent? You decide! (<-- attempt at tongue-in-cheek humor) -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:10, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Checked this. Checked ведьма (védʹma) as well and added translations at banshee and enchantress. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 19:30, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Do the Chinese words you added as translations to banshee really refer to Irish folklore? Because that's part of our definition of banshee. I don't think the translation should be for any sort of death-presaging female spirit, but specifically for (Irish) banshees. (Incidentally, I have the same doubts about the Dutch translations fee and elf, and I really wonder what the Persian translation below the translation box says. I suspect it's more a description of a banshee than the Persian word for banshee.) —Angr 21:26, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Me and Tooironic sometimes add "no exact term exist". That's how Chinese borrowings often work, especially for rarely used words or mythological creatures. It's the best you can get. I added the term as SoP, you can see that there two Chinese words. The Chinese Wikipedia describes them as "Scottish" 女妖精 ("female evil spirit"). Like with goblins, elves, etc, only phonetic loanwords or cognates can more or less guarantee exactness. Another similar terms (no 100% match) are 丧门神 and 丧门星 ("messenger of death"). Chinese dictionaries use them to compare with "banshee". Will add those as well, remove Persian and Dutch "fee" and "elf". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:05, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I think it's fine if Chinese Wiktionary explains what the English word "banshee" means rather than providing an exact translation when none exists. But at English Wiktionary, which is oriented to English speakers, I think if Chinese and Persian don't have exact translations, then those languages should just be left out of the translation table. —Angr 10:03, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

The Chinese translation 报丧 (bàosāng)女妖 (nǚyāo) is not an explanation, it's a correct translation of the word "banshee", even if it's a sum of parts with a literal "the announcing death enchantress". The Chinese term 报丧 (bàosāng)女妖 (nǚyāo) is also used for as the name of the toy. At English Wiktionary we use "{{t-SOP}}" or multiple "{{l}}" in such cases. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:54, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm a little irritated by "enchantress" here. I don't know what the implications of 女妖 (nǚyāo) are, but a banshee is most certainly not an enchantress by any of the definitions we currently have for that word. So if 女妖 (nǚyāo) means enchantress, then a banshee isn't a 女妖 (nǚyāo); and if a banshee is a 女妖 (nǚyāo), then 女妖 (nǚyāo) doesn't (always) mean enchantress. —Angr 14:32, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

When something is left out of a translation table, it doesn't tell me that there is no translation, it tells me that nobody has added a translation. Those translating into a language probably want something, especially if you've got a fantasy text with endless fantasy creatures with distant relationships to their mythological origins. (Banshees, of course, have always been incorporeal undead female elves.)

I'll note that 女妖 is what Magic the Gathering uses to translate banshee ([1], [2]). I would argue that when a million gamers know that 午夜女妖 is Midnight Banshee, 女妖 is an established way of translating banshee into Chinese.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:26, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, 女妖 (nǚyāo) is also used as "banshee", as an extended meaning. 报丧 (bàosāng)女妖 (nǚyāo) is full term. Angr, I don't know the source for your irritation. Words change their meanings, that's common. Chinese uses 报丧 (bàosāng)女妖 (nǚyāo) or just 女妖 (nǚyāo) to mean "banshee", even if its original meaning is "enchantress" but that's not the only meaning. My Pleco dictionary gives "succuba" or female demon. As for the SoP translations, if our CFI didn't allow "bear cub" to be included, the valid SoP translation for the Russian "медвежонок (medvežonok)" (medvežónok) or the French "ourson" would be "bear cub". If a language doesn't have a single word for "beauty" (beautiful woman) then translating as "beautiful" + "woman" into other languages is also valid. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:52, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

"even if its original meaning is "enchantress" but that's not the only meaning". That's what I wanted to know. The other meanings should be added to 女妖 (nǚyāo), because right now it's glossed only as "enchantress". —Angr 09:53, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

It's kind of complicated again, I can't give you a simple answer without going into how Mandarin borrowings work. Consider this example: 元首 (yuánshǒu) means "head of state" but it's also used to mean "Führer". Translation of "Führer" as "元首 (yuánshǒu)" is perfect, that's how it's used but it's has a broader meaning but I don't it's very good to add "Führer" to the definition of "元首 (yuánshǒu)". 真主 (zhēnzhǔ) originally meant "the true God" but it now means "Allah". 女妖 (nǚyāo) without a qualifier means various female spirits, may also mean "kikimora" (a Russian female house spirit), like 妖怪 (yāoguài) may mean various generic supernatural beings, including goblins, demons, even if they are all very different. It may all seem primitive but as the Chinese language, due to the phonetic and writing systems, traditions and language policies is not absorbing a large number of foreign words but translates them in its own way. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:41, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

My problem is with using the English word "enchantress", which always has an implication of seductiveness but only rarely has an implication of the supernatural, as the sole translation of a Chinese word which seems (AFAICT) always to have an implication of the supernatural but not necessarily an implication of seductiveness. —Angr 10:57, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

I changed the definition to "witch" per Angr's comments. Is that OK? - -sche (discuss) 00:52, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok with me. Thanks. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:59, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good to me too. —Angr 09:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)