Talk:a friend in need is a friend indeed

Tea room discussion

Note: the below discussion was moved from the Wiktionary:Tea room.

Does this proverb really mean “Someone who comes to you when in need is a true friend, as he trusts you enough to help.”, as our entry claims? —Ruakh_TALK 13:55, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Er, no. To me it means, "A friend who helps you when you are in need is a true friend." (ie, not a fairweather friend.) Ƿidsiþ 13:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Ruakh is "a friend in need" (of an opinion), and Ƿidsiþ is "a friend indeed" (as he comes rapidly to assist Ruakh.) In other words, I agree with Ƿidsiþ. -- ALGRIF talk 16:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

The skeptical reading is: A friend who needs your help will act very friendly to set up the forthcoming request for what is needed. DCDuring TALK 16:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what I've always thought it meant. So I guess we all agree that the def in the entry is wrong, but not about what the right def is. :-P   And now that I examine the entry's history, I see that the reference likely doesn't support it, since the reference was already there before 204.63.137.150 (talk) changed the def from “Someone who helps you when you are in need, is a real friend.” to “Someone who comes to you when in need is a true friend, as he trusts you enough to help.” So, I'm reverting that change, and adding the def that you and I understand it as, and adding {{rfquote-sense}} to each sense. (I wonder if this is US/UK difference? Are we more cynical than Brits? (Is Algrif British?)) —Ruakh_TALK 17:18, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Interesting. Maybe there is more evidence of this cynical interpretation. However, I do not think that is what it was intended to mean. The Old English version is much clearer, and older forms in general are less open to other interpretations, eg in Caxton "It is sayd, that at the nede the frende is knowen." And according to my trusty Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, it picks up from a Latin phrase "Amicu certus in re incerta cernitur", from someone called Quintus Ennius. Ƿidsiþ 17:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• Good to know. That's probably worth clarifying in the entry, either in an etymology section, or in sense labels, or in a usage note. —Ruakh_TALK 17:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• The first definition is what I understand the proverb to mean. The second is either creative invention or simple misunderstanding of the term (deprecated template usage) in need. SemperBlotto 17:27, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguity?:

• 1909, William Shepard Walsh, Handy-book of Literary Curiosities, page 400

  Prosperity makes friends," says Publius Syrus, "adversity tries them." To the same effect is Ecclesiasticus, " A friend cannot be known in prosperity, and an enemy cannot be hidden in adversity." Therefore all nations have the proverb " A friend in need is a friend indeed," an expression found in Plautus's " Epidicus," — "Nothing is there more friendly to a man than a friend in need.'1 (Act iii., Sc. 3). Yet he seems to be a rarity : In aught that tries the heart, how few withstand the proof! BVRON : Ckildt Harold, Canto ii., St. 66.

  DCDuring TALK 18:01, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• In a volume edited by The great scholar of proverbs, Wolfgang Mieder, Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett says that ambiguity is of the essence for this proverb here, pages 113-4. Heris students produced four senses. DCDuring TALK 18:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• At the risk of nitpicking, the page you link to is actually by Barbara Kirshenblatt-Gimblett. (Mieder is one of the editors of the book it's in.) But, that's really helpful, a specific source discussing the ambiguity (instead of our having to infer the ambiguity from mutually contradictory sources). This proverb gives new meaning to the proverb that proverbs hunt in pairs. :-)   —Ruakh_TALK 21:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

• I think you're all barking up the wrong tree. My take on the meaning of this phrase is that it is said in a sarcastic way...a bit more like "a friend in need is a friend my foot". In other words "who wants a needy friend? No thanks." — This unsigned comment was added by Stevedobo33 (talk • contribs) at 15:14–34, 7 January 2009 (UTC).

Meaning

The one and only meaning is this: If you need help then you will recognize your real friends! --80.226.1.7 09:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

This anonymous remark (apparently based on an old English proverb) about "true friendship" could prove quite enlightening: "A friend in need is a friend in need of a friend indeed."
Unknown talk 12:28, 14 Oct. 2014

Polysemy

Excerpt from The Wisdom of Many: Essays on the Proverb (1994, →ISBN, page 114:

Sources of multiple meaning in "A friend in need is a friend indeed (in deed)" include (1) syntactic ambiguity (is your friend in need or are you in need); (2) lexical ambiguity (indeed or in deed); (3) key (Is proverb being stated "straight" or "sarcastically"? does "a friend indeed" mean "a true friend" or "not a true friend"?).

- -sche (discuss) 02:19, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Very insightful questions, but do we have the answers? --WikiTiki89 03:36, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

RFV discussion: March–May 2014

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a friend in need is a friend indeed

See also: Talk:a friend in need is a friend indeed

RFV-sense "A needy friend is an undesirable friend." - -sche (discuss) 21:01, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

I also RFV-sensed the second sense "Someone who needs your help is likely to be more friendly towards you." which I think is just a misinterpretation of the proverb (i.e. "in need" is interpreted as referring to the friend rather than to the speaker or listener), and I don't think anyone uses the proverb that way. --WikiTiki89 21:45, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

There are definitely people who understand/use "a friend in need" to mean "a friend who is in need" rather than "someone who is a friend to you when you are in need", probably because that's how "in need" functions in many (most?) other cases, e.g. Children in Need. But "...is likely to be more friendly towards you" seems like a cynical interpretation. I've added (as a new sense) a different definition that I think better matches the neutral/positive tone of the citations I added with it. - -sche (discuss) 03:26, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I've removed both of the tagged senses as RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 19:30, 29 May 2014 (UTC)