Talk:hazelnut

Can someone suggest an etymology for hazelnut? Does hazel have anything to do with the common 'chestnut brown' hare, inasmuch as 's' and 'r' tended to shift around a lot, around 1000 AD, and the hazelnut tree tends to spread very rapidly?198.177.25.10 07:21, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

• In a word, no. Hazel is a very old word, and goes back to Proto-Indo-European. Although interestingly, in Latin the medial consonant is now an R -- see corylus. Ƿidsiþ 07:32, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

WHAT IS A 'HAZELNUT'?

Since ハシバミ (hashibami) at Japanese was marked with a "please check" notice, I've done some rudimentary research. It appears that the nuts of all 14–18 species of Corylus around the world are edible, but the main commercial varieties are Corylus avellana or "common hazel", and Corylus maxima or "filbert". The Asian hazel or Corylus heterophylla, called the hashibami in Japan, is found in Japan and is edible, and thus qualifies as a "hazelnut". However, the type that is commercially available for consumption in Japan appears to be Corylus avellana.

This raises problems for the entry itself. Should the definition of "hazelnut" be confined to the familiar "common hazelnut", or should the many different edible varieties found worldwide be included in the sense? The entry as it stands is unclear on this. For Japan, the common term for the familiar hazelnut is ヘーゼルナッツ hēzerunattsu, from English. The term セイヨウハシバミ seiyō-hashibami is a technically correct description of the variety involved, although I doubt many Japanese consumers would be familiar with it. The Asian hazel (ハシバミ) is possibly consumed non-commercially in Japan, but the overwhelmingly familiar "hazelnut" appears to be the European variety. Similar considerations probably apply (even more forcefully) to Chinese terms for the hazelnut. Bathrobe (talk) 21:38, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

@Bathrobe In English, hazel and hazelnut can refer to any species in the genus Corylus, but most people are only familiar with the commercial hazelnuts (Corylus avellana as hazelnuts and don't think of filberts as hazelnuts. We should probably give both the names for the commercial hazelnut and the Japanese hazelnuts, with the appropriate qualifiers. I wonder, though, if 榛 (hashibami) refers to just the tree/shrub, or the nut as well. There's a section at w:ja:ヘーゼルナッツ#呼称 that seems to address that, but I don't speak Japanese and Google Translate only goes so far.

By the way, according to the flora I usually consult (although the taxonomy is half a century out of date), Corylus sieboldiana is also native to Japan, though the common name for it is derived from that of C. heterophylla.

Thanks for your comment, which has prompted me to look a little further into this.

The section you refer to says this:

漢字では、広義の榛（はしばみ、ハシバミ属）の果実は「榛実」と表記する。日本語でも中国語でも変わりない（ただし、簡体字では「榛实」、繁体字では「榛實」。また、中国語では可食部は「榛子」と呼ぶほうが一般的）。とは言え、榛、角榛、西洋榛などといった種類によって呼称が変わることもある（あった）と思われる。片仮名での別名としてフィルビアード、ウィッチエール、ハルスなどがある。

In Chinese characters, the fruit of the hazel (hashibami, Corylus) is written "榛実" [hazel fruit]. This holds for both Japanese and Chinese (although this is 榛实 in Chinese Simplified and 榛實 in Chinese Traditional characters; moreover, the edible part is generally known as 榛子 [zhēnzi].) However, the name is believed to change (or have changed) depending on whether it is a hashibami [C. heterophylla], tsuno-hashibami [C. sieboldiana] , or seiyō-hashibami [C. avellana] variety. In katakana, it has the alternative names "filbiert" [sic], "hals", etc. (My translation).

Still a bit confusing.

At this page (https://botanica-media.jp/2251) I found the following:

ハシバミの実はヘーゼルナッツとして食べることができます。厳密にいえば、ヨーロッパ原産の「セイヨウハシバミ」の実がヘーゼルナッツですが、国内で生産されたハシバミの実もヘーゼルナッツと呼ばれることが多いです。

The fruit of the hashibami can be eaten as "hazelnut". Strictly speaking, the hazelnut is the fruit of the European seiyō hashibami, but it is often the case that hashibami fruit produced domestically goes by the name of "hazelnut". (My translation).

This answers one question I was driving at: are the local varieties consumed in Japan, and what are they called? So it appears that ヘーゼルナッツ hēzurunattsu can refer both to seiyō-hashibami (i.e. Corylus avellana) and to nuts produced from local species....

Also this passage from the site above:

日本においては、奈良時代や平安時代にはハシバミの実を食用として利用していたといわれています。また日本では過去にはセイヨウハシバミの栽培普及が試みられたこともありますが、種子をつけるまでの期間が長いなどの理由から、普及せず現在に至ります。

In Japan, it is said that hashibami nuts were eaten in the Nara and Heian periods. Moreover, attempts were made in the past to spread the cultivation of seiyō-hashibami (i.e., C. avellana), but for reasons such as the long time it takes to set seeds, it has failed to spread right up till the present day. (My rough translation.)

The Chinese Wikipedia article on 榛果 zhēnguǒ says:

榛果（香港称作榛子），是榛属植物的的坚果，果皮坚硬，果仁可食。人类食用的榛子，取自欧榛果实的果仁。榛子与中国北方野生的平榛果实虽然同属榛属，但平榛的果实较小，口味不太一样。

The zhēnguǒ (called zhēnzi in Hong Kong) is the fruit of plants in the genus Corylus, of which the nut is edible. Zhēnzi consumed by human beings is the nut of the fruit of the European hazel [i.e. Corylus avellana]. Although both the zhēnzi and the fruit of the píng-zhēn that grows wild in northeast China both belong to the genus Corylus, the fruit of the píngzhēn is smaller and has a rather different flavour. (My translation). (Note: píngzhēn refers to Corylus heterophylla)

These still pose questions as to how this should be handled at the entry. Since this is English Wiktionary, English-language usage should be the standard. If the English entry is about the fruit of the Corylus in general, then this definition should be followed in presenting translated names, with local usage being properly clarified in listing translations. If the entry strictly refers only to Corylus avellana, then the translations should follow this. As you suggest, the "filbert" throws a bit of a spanner in the works with regard to English usage.

To be honest, I'm personally not sure how this should be handled. I'm simply raising the question for input from other editors such as yourself. Bathrobe (talk) 05:00, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

This is, in part, an instance of a general problem. In English, plants and their flower, fruit, wood, resin, edible parts, etc. are sometimes referred to by the same word. I take it that it doesn't necessarily work that way in other languages. I suppose that we should review the English entries that have vernacular names and make sure that there are separate definitions for the plant and any of its products that are attestably called by that name.

Another problem is that vernacular names for an organism in a given language usually refer to a species (or genus etc) that is found where the language is spoken. In English, words like robin have different referents in, for example, the US, UK, Australia, India, Caribbean, South Africa. It is usually difficult to attest to such differences, though compounds including robin strongly suggest that robin alone is likely used to refer to the compound-named species.

I think we are unlikely to be able to produce evidence for all the cases that we find. Words like probably, sometimes, or typically may have to be used in definitions for some extended or region-specific meanings. DCDuring (talk) 17:08, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

I've reverted my edits to Japanese at the translation section. It's clear from the entry and that at hazel that 'hazelnut' refers to Corylus in general. There is no need to give the Japanese translation as セイヨウハシバミ, which refers strictly to "Corylus avellana". Bathrobe (talk) 19:48, 16 May 2023 (UTC)