Last modified on 3 June 2014, at 20:28

Talk:two-spirit

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RFV discussionEdit

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Native American mixed gender. Someone has deposited a vast amount of research not well formatted. I think that the substantial cleanup effort requires that the definitions be correct and attestable before the translation-table clean up begins. DCDuring TALK 12:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, unfortunately, having been involved in published research on this topic, it's essentially undefinable in English which assumes dichotomous sex and gender. I would propose, but solely based on research among 'aboriginal north american peoples' (itself a disputed concept) three primary definitions in common parlance:
  1. Non-heterosexual people, sexual minorities, especially of Aboriginal North American ethnicity.
  2. Non-western gender identified; a person whose dichotomous genetic sex is not the same as the person's gender role or presentation. Especially a person of Aboriginal North American ethnicity.
  3. (queer jargon) Any queer person, especially one embracing a "Native American"-influenced spirituality.
- Amgine/talk 03:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

RFV failed, both senses removed and replaced with {{substub}}. —RuakhTALK 15:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Etymology discussionEdit

Removed etymology because it is unsubstantiated and suspect for grammatical reasons(see detailed reasons at talk section of Wikipedia article on "two spirit").

the "etymology" of this thing is that it has been touted as a politically correct shibboleth since ca. 1993. This is a cultural thing. In the USA, interest groups only feel they are given due attention if everyone is forced to tiptoe around them and emphatically embraces their preferred terminology du jour. "This attempt at rebranding recalls the shifts from homosexual to gay to queer to GLBT." A descriptive dictionary will report this kind of US-specific proscriptivism, but it will not either endorse or reject it.
personally, I feel that "two-spirit" is much more disingenious than the mere "LGBT" or "queer" because it is an attempt to simulate a Sapir-Whorfian "indigenous cultural viewpoint" expressed in vocabulary by means of made-up vocabulary. The PC people in the US are very fond of doing this, see "never again the burning times" in radical pagan feminism, which simulates a "genocide survivor" trauma expressed in culture-specific vocabulary. Exactly the same thing is going on in Maafa, again simulating "genocide survivor" vocabulary, shamelessly imitating the real term Shoah. To my mind, this is despicable linguistic fraud. The real crime of cultural chauvinism is perpetrated by the people using such fraudulent mimicry terminology.
But I can detach myself from this personal opinion sufficiently to just report the facts. Which are that this is a terminlogical fashion which arose in certain subcultures in the USA in the 1990s. --Dbachmann (talk) 12:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

TranslationsEdit

Per RFC, these have been moved out of the entry until they can be checked and formatted. (Note how badly they are formatted, and how many do not use canonical language names.)

Moved out of the main entry to here by: - -sche (discuss) 19:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Specific two-spirit figuresEdit

These were listed as translations of "two-spirit", but are in fact the names of specific two-spirit people:

  • Blackfoot: Saahkómaapi'aakííkoan ("Boy-girl", another name of the female-bodied "Running Eagle") (Southern Peigan dialect)
  • Alutiiq: Tyakutyik (Chugach dialect; name given to one two-spirit, but also to a non-two-spirit; lit. "what kind of people are these two")[1]
  • Nuxálk / Bella Coola: Sx̣ints (Sxints, Sx̭ınts, Sx’ǐnts) (a particular hermaphroditic mythological figure)[2][3]
  • Winnebago: Dedjáŋgtcowiŋga ("Blue lake woman", name of a particular ?male-bodied? two-spirit)

Moved out of the main entry to here by: - -sche (discuss) 19:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

ItelmenEdit

The Itelmen translation (koekchuchami) is incorrect. First, the ending -ami is a Russian noun case ending (instrumental plural). Second, Itelmen uses Cyrillic. The word is probably коекчуч. —Stephen (Talk) 04:38, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Good catch! It seems that the reference which had koekchuchami was in error. Regarding the script, Wikipedia says Itelmen used the Latin alphabet when it was first written (in the 1930s), and switched to Cyrillic in the 1980s. Google Books has mentions of both forms (scripts). - -sche (discuss) 06:12, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

RFC discussion: November 2013Edit

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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, though feel free to discuss its conclusions.


The translation table is in a form that is a substantial departure from our format, using many multi-part language names, unlinked translations, with non-conforming glosses and at least one out-of place comment. It has the look of a data deposit from someone's academic research project.

Someone who had good knowledge of the range of native American languages, tribes, and geography is needed to render this into our format. Alternatively, the data could be copied to the Talk page and the entry perhaps reverted to a state when it was more conformant. DCDuring TALK 15:52, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

What’s more, there is a hidden translation table with the gloss “Similar mixed-gender identities outside of North America”. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I think DCDuring's suggestion of moving the content to the talk page until it can be checked and formatted is best. I have moved it and will begin checking what I can. - -sche (discuss) 20:00, 25 November 2013 (UTC)