Alexdubr

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Check

We take formatting really seriously here, so could you look at this edit, and maybe look at how other pages are formatted for future reference? We don't have a lot of Ukrainian here, so it would be a shame for us to lose you over formatting issues. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:51, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll learn proper formatting. --Alexdubr 09:01, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

If you ever have a question about anything, feel free to ask me. If it's something I'm not sure of, I'll try to find someone more helpful. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 14:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/2011-10/Categories of names 3

Because you voted in Wiktionary:Votes/2011-07/Categories of names, I'm informing you of this new vote.​—msh210℠ (talk) 01:58, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

WT:UK TR

So I'm not really familiar with Ukrainian, but there's little things like я being ja instead of 'a, etc. We have a bit of a mess with some of our older Russian entries with stuff like that, and ц as ts instead of c. I'd like to keep that to a minimum in Ukrainian and have it be as uniform as humanly possible :D — [Ric Laurent] — 13:32, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

OK. I don't mind any form of romanization, so if you have some detailed rules, I'll stick to them. As for я and some other letters, they have two ways of pronouncing, depending of the position. So 'a means that preceding consonsnt is palatalized. In general, the apostrophe in standard Ukrainian romanization means palatalization. But if it's not used here, I'll not use it either.--Alexdubr 13:38, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

One argument I get into surprisingly commonly is transliteration vs pronunciation guide. I have a kind of internal dilemma as to which I prefer, though I seem to prefer pronunciation, simply because I feel that if you want to learn a language, that would be more useful than transliteration. I mean, you'll hopefully learn the alphabet or writing system anyway, so the transliteration will eventually become useless, but a pronunciation guide will still be potentially useful. It might be a good idea to talk to Stephen Brown or Anatoli Titarev, their knowledge of Ukrainian is a lot better than mine, so I think talking to them would be more useful. — [Ric Laurent] — 13:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Very minor point, not even gonna create a subsection for it, but you don't need sc=Cyrl inside {{uk-noun}}, as it only allows Cyrl! Same as you don't need sc=Latn in {{en-noun}}. --Mglovesfun (talk) 14:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually I don't think we need sc=Cyrl anywhere except for languages that use multiple scripts. Even {{infl|uk|noun}} still returns Cyrl because of our awesome replacement for the utterly stupid Xyzy template. — [Ric Laurent] — 14:25, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

OK. I'm not very experienced in templates, so just was copying them from article to article. Alexdubr 14:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

No worries man, you get used to it. The basic ones you'll need are these:

{{uk-noun|tr=}}
{{uk-adj|tr=}}
{{uk-verb|tr=}}

— [Ric Laurent] — 14:41, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Привет и спасибо за вклад! Рекомендую придерживаться нашего стандарта транслитерации - WT:UK TR для украинского и WT:RU TR для русского. Дело не в произношении, а то как мы эти буквы транслитерируем :). Придется привыкать. Для мягкости гласных не нужно ставить ', кроме буквы ь. Всего доброго и успехов! --Anatoli 21:43, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Это сводит меня с ума, что я понимаю ... er... only about half of this. Kinda like how much of what I want to say I can translate :D — [Ric Laurent] — 21:49, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Don't stress out, man :) As I said, just ask if you don't understand a word or a phrase. --Anatoli 22:08, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Lol it's cool man, I naturally stress about not learning quickly enough :D But when I learn too fast I kinda burn out. Like I did when I was learning Russian. And like I may have just done with Albanian, for the second or third time. :( I'll go back to both surely lol — [Ric Laurent] — 22:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Personal questions

Hi,

do you mind if I were to ask you a few personal questions? Feel free to not answer them, but I ask them because I wish to know something about 'memory' in Russia or with Russians in general. I ask these questions to several native Russian speakers, so forgive me if you encounter these questions on different talkpages. So here are the questions:

• When were you born?
• Were you 16 or older in the 1980s?
• Were you born in Russia/Soviet Union? Where?
• How do you remember the Soviet-Afghan war/Afghan war?
• How do you remember the Soviet repression, such as the Gulag or the prison camp system?
• How do you remember the public discussion in the 1980s/1990s about the repression and the prison camp system?
• How do you feel about the victims of the Afghan war and the victims of the repression?

Answer in anyway you like (which includes not answering as well of course), thank you very much.

Kind regards,

User:Mallerd (Zeg et es meisje) 12:29, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

Talk:небо

Hi! We're having a disagreement on the talk page, so perhaps you could weigh in, being an native speaker? Is небеса ever spoken among common people? --Ivan Štambuk (talk)

Наголос в перекладах

Привіт,

Зверни увагу, будь ласка, що для української мови не потрібна ручна транслітерація, досить поставити правильно наголос, ось так: сновиді́ння n (snovydínnja). Дякую за внесок :) --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:24, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

От якби я ще знав, як це робити:) Alexdubr (talk) 12:31, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Просто потрібно поставити знак ́ (наголос) у слові. :) --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 19:26, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Не можу знайти його в себе на клавіатурі. Потрібна комбінація клавіш?Alexdubr (talk) 19:35, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

У мене у Firefox-і є плаг-ін (character palette), але ти можеш зберегти у себе комбінації: А́, Е́, Є́, И́, І́, Ї́, О́, У́, Ю́, Я́, а́, е́, є́, и́, і́, ї́, о́, у́, ю́, я́ в User:Alexdubr/Tools. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:02, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Зробив User:Alexdubr/Tools, подивись. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:37, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Дякую! Залюбки користуватимусь Alexdubr (talk) 23:33, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Uk pronunciations

Hi Alex! I'm trying to implement automatic generation of phonetic transcriptions for standard Ukrainian in IPA. There are some test cases here that you can inspect. The algorithm is implemented on the basis of these works. Some of which are a bit dated, though I doubt spoken Ukrainian norm has changed much in the last 20 years. There are some newer sources listed here but unfortunately I don't have access to them :/ I would very much appreciate if you could comment or test the module yourself! It can be used in entries like this. As you probably know, the usual Ukrainian phonetic transcription does not use IPA symbols but Cyrillic script, which is not easily convertible to IPA. There are no IPA symbols for "semi-palatalization", "weak palatalization" or "the sound between [ɛ] and [ɪ] but more closer to [ɛ]". The current scheme uses [e] to represent the range of unstressed allophones of /ɛ/ and /ɪ/. Do you think that's OK? Perhaps we should just keep it [ɛ] and [ɪ] in all positions... There are very few sources for Ukrainian in IPA, and it would be easy to implement new rules in the Lua module, should better source appear (and we decide to use them). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:43, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ivan! First of all I'd like to thank you for your interest in Ukrainian and contributions to its section here. Second. Ukrainian spoken norm did change a bit towards Russian, esp in devoicing final voiced consonants; also, I can't tell the difference between Ukr. ɪ and Rus. ɨ, though according to the sources these are two different phonemes. Finally, you yourself can see that even the proffies in phonology argue about the most correct representation of certain sounds. My thought is that a dictionary should be of help to the learner, and the IPA transcription is not of importance for Ukrainian learners since the language writing system is quite phonetic. The only example of breaking of this rule I can tell without thinking long is the word принаймні which is read as принаймі.

The newer sources you cited. I haven't read any, but I did have an academic textbook on the modern literary Ukrainian (published in 2002 if I'm correct), and it doesn't use IPA, rather cyrrilic transcription. There, for example, unstressed e is repr. as е^и, unstressed и is и^е (this is covered in th 2008 paper from your ref. part 2.2) . Also, now it is agreed that there are long consonants.

I think, the paper of Tonia Bilous (2005) is a great thing to base Ukr. IPA for Wiktionary on it. Alexdubr (talk) 16:15, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Some sources do mention different pronunciation in the dialects, Russian-influenced pronunciations, and even variant standard pronunciations (such as the prefixes роз- and без- spoken with з both voiced and devoiced), but these are unfortunately mostly listed in haphazard manner. If we could get a comprehensive list of sound changes associated with Ukrainian spoken with e.g. heavy Russian influence, or Eastern vs. Western Ukrainian, it would be easy to make the template generate multiple regional pronunciations. It's all really a matter of collecting sources. Take a look at the the awesome {{grc-ipa-rows}} template for how it could look like :)

Spoken -н- in прина́ймні (Template:uk-pron) here seems audible - perhaps that is some colloquial form?

I have some other plans for Ukrainian that will streamline creation of entries. I'll get back to you when it's done :) --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:54, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Look, there are a lot of accents in every language. That's why a standard form exists. If an IPA pronunciation adds any useful info to an entry, it should represent the norm. Any other accents may be described somewhere in appendices, if at all.

Any automatisation of entry creation is great, if done well. I think, several parameters could be added to templates of adjectives and verbs. And also to declensions: the Russian ones are more automated, for example. Alexdubr (talk) 19:51, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it should represent the norm, but if we can find proper description of the actual vernacular spoken in some major areas of interest (like big cities, or border areas), we could generate them as well. It wouldn't be too hard to expand the functionality of the pronunciation template. These could be hidden if their number grows to large inside a collapsible box, with a "click here to see more pronunciations" button or something similar... This type of important but rare and often neglected knowledge is something that could set Wiktionary apart from other dictionaries.

Regarding adjectives and verbs - yes the module for Ukrainian headwords Module:uk-headword needs to be expanded to add support for comparative forms and similar. I also find the Ukrainian conjugation template {{uk-conj-table}} very illogical. Most of the conjugation templates for other languages have tenses listed on the left, and forms by persons and numbers in columns on the right. Plus, there is lots of unused space left on the screen. Just by expanding it makes me wanna rotate my head by 90 degrees instinctively...

Anyway, please take a look at this entry. It has an automatically generated layout, all except for the definition line. I can generate many such entries by a bot (also for adjectives and verbs, once their templates are upgraded!) It would be very similar to what User:Tbot used to generate, but which doesn't operate anymore (it's operator has passed away). Basically the idea is to make editors such as yourself waste less time with wiki markup, templates and formatting... i.e. the type of stuff that can be to a large degree automated, and instead focus on actual content, such as the definitions, relations among words (synonyms, derived terms), usage examples and so on. What do you think about that idea? I could generate a few dozen entries for testing, and if you like it with can proceed with more :) --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:22, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Your Tbot analogue is great! Though it should be used carefully, lest we have ru.wikt, where there are some 90% of pages without definition/translation. Also, I think it would be wise to create a distinct category for these entries, like Tbot's one. Wtat do you think should be the input words for the bot? May be there should be a special "feed-page"? One could add a needed word and, at least, its part of speech to that page and turn on the bot, or wait until it reads the page itself. Alexdubr (talk) 19:07, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Oh I know those type of entries on Викисловарь :) But those entries are bare skeleton..they don't have a single piece of data in them, only empty sections. Often I click interwiki links on Russian entries to find...nothing. Sadly, this practice is common on many other Wiktionaries :/
However, I could generate a definition line stub as well (a single word for translation), by stealing it from our translation tables, or Вікісловник, or machine-translating. From my experience with Serbo-Croatian where I have a similar system in place already, these would be sufficiently correct for some 50% of entries, and in the rest they would have to be manually expanded (by adding glosses in brackets, missing meanings, and similar). We could give it a shot, and if it doesn't work too well it could be turned off.
Yes I could make a feed page where words could be added...no need to specify the part of speech! Or, for example, bot could scan your own contributions in the last month, and create entries for Ukrainian translations that you added for English entries :) Also, there is on Wikimedia Commons a category with Ukrainian pronunciations with 16k entries, so was thinking about focusing on their entries first. There should definitely be a category for it. It could take me a few days to set this up, I'll get back to you later. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:05, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

The bot creating articles from the Ukr translations I make to English words sounds great indeed. I wanted to ask for something similar but didn't think it's easyly achievable. Alexdubr (talk) 21:17, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Pregenerating entries (Ukrainian)

Привіт,

Ти ще не кинув працювати з українською? :) Якщо ні, то є робота. Запрошую взяти участь у бесіді про масове генерування українських статей у Вікісловнику - Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/May#Pregenerating_entries. Твоя участь тут дуже важливе. Не обов'язково негайно перевести всі статті, але хоча б планувати це зробити протягом якогось часу. Який ліміт ти вважаєш прийнятним? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:01, 3 June 2014 (UTC)