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Thread titleRepliesLast modified
Gender of a Middle Low German word113:50, 24 November 2014
Categories that have failed RFDO116:39, 23 November 2014
Term placeholders/requests822:44, 21 November 2014
Something for "News for editors" for November216:14, 21 November 2014
politically correct as a politically correct term000:10, 21 November 2014
etymology citation423:24, 19 November 2014
{{temp|hu-suffix}} - Part 2813:36, 19 November 2014
Reverting my edition120:51, 16 November 2014
How are you speeding up MewBot?215:30, 13 November 2014
Would the affix template you suggested work for this word?914:40, 12 November 2014
Sami/Finnic correspondences223:59, 8 November 2014
Sami/Finnic correspondences023:43, 8 November 2014
Musical terms114:27, 5 November 2014
{{tl|head}}222:38, 4 November 2014
Can you get f1tr= working again in {{temp|head}}?219:08, 4 November 2014
Module:grc-conj119:44, 3 November 2014
Autocannons are not machine guns2010:22, 2 November 2014
Template:Greek and Coptic character info120:29, 1 November 2014
l docs418:22, 31 October 2014
Another Day, Another Odd Error102:38, 31 October 2014
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Gender of a Middle Low German word

Hello, CodeCat,

I hope that you are doing well! :) I have a question, which is actually the gender of Middle Low German havene?

Greets HeliosX

HeliosX (talk)13:50, 24 November 2014

I would guess that it's feminine but I don't know for sure.

CodeCat13:50, 24 November 2014
 

Categories that have failed RFDO

I haven't tracked down the discussion, but both Category:Lojban nouns and Category:Lojban proper nouns were deleted as having failed RFDO. Aside from the merits of this individual case, I think we need to come up with a way of preventing Mewbot from creating categories that are validly formed, but shouldn't exist (to use an absurd example: Category:Chinese class 1 strong verbs). Maybe an exception list?

Chuck Entz (talk)16:08, 23 November 2014

If MewBot doesn't create them, it doesn't stop someone else from doing so anyway. So the list would probably need to be built into the category tree modules somehow, so that the module can automatically tag or trigger an error when they get created.

CodeCat16:39, 23 November 2014
 

Term placeholders/requests

Re "Showing a request for a term is pointless. How are people supposed to know what term is meant?": From context. Or from any other information that may be indicated, such as the translation. See Zira.

WikiTiki8920:57, 12 November 2014

I can't tell from context what is meant there. It seems more like a crossword puzzle to me. "Guess the word that means X and sounds like Y." Besides, the module is used very generally; we don't want to remove the error checking just for a few specific cases. It's not worth it.

CodeCat21:00, 12 November 2014
Edited by author.
Last edit: 21:05, 12 November 2014

That's the whole point. You might not know the word, but someone else who stumbles upon the page (perhaps by browsing through the category) might know. Either from the idea that it has to be similar to "Zira" or from the translation, or both. If it's an error, then it would still be caught by the editor or whoever is browsing the category. And who ever said it's only for specific cases? This could be used very widely. It hasn't been only because the template hasn't allowed it.

WikiTiki8921:02, 12 November 2014

And what if it isn't?

CodeCat21:04, 12 November 2014

Not every error can be caught. One error I frequently make is {{m|he|מַיִם|máyim}}, which displays as: máyim. If I don't catch it when I'm editing, someone else will when they are browsing the page.

WikiTiki8921:08, 12 November 2014

One tweak I would suggest is checking the namespace: people try out all kinds of nonstandard kluges in their user spaces- do we really want those cluttering up the request categories?

Chuck Entz (talk)03:46, 16 November 2014
 
 
 
 
 

Something for "News for editors" for November

Tweenk (talkcontribs) created a new template, {{pl-decl-noun-cie}}, for Polish nouns ending in -cie because I somewhat requested it. Does the creation of a new template like that count as news for editors?

Lo Ximiendo (talk)05:09, 21 November 2014

I think so. There's no harm in putting it there, especially as there isn't much other news.

CodeCat10:12, 21 November 2014

I added the news myself today. Maybe for the first time ever.

Lo Ximiendo (talk)16:14, 21 November 2014
 
 

politically correct as a politically correct term

I feel that that entry and category need to be linked in some way. Doesn't really matter how, but in some way. Note about the category in the entry and link to the category in the lede are two other ways that could be open if we don't want to categorize politically correct as a politically correct term.

Purplebackpack8900:10, 21 November 2014

etymology citation

Hi, you recently deleted the triangular hebesphenorotunda citations page. The citation I gave illustrated the etymology in more detail than seemed appropriate on the primary definition, but is nonetheless interesting and relevant information. May I ask where else I should put that quote?

Origamidesigner (talk)20:10, 19 November 2014

The problem is that the citation does not contain the term "triangular hebesphenorotunda" at all. Citations are supposed to show the term as it is used.

CodeCat20:17, 19 November 2014

Ok, but it explains the etymological roots of the term in detail, attributed to the guy who coined the term. I'm not sure where else to put that information, maybe I should just integrate it into the etymology section?

Origamidesigner (talk)22:41, 19 November 2014

Or maybe that level of detail isn't necessary, and I should just forget about it?

Origamidesigner (talk)22:43, 19 November 2014

It's probably not necessary. Our etymologies mostly focus on how the word came to exist, and leave out anything else.

CodeCat23:24, 19 November 2014
 
 
 
 

{{temp|hu-suffix}} - Part 2

There is another issue with the new hu-suffix: In certain cases, we want to use the template with a blank first parameter, just to show the suffix and put the word into the correct suffix category. See dinamikus. The terminology in these cases is with -xx ending. This worked fine in the original version, but the new version adds a plus sign: with + -xx ending which does not make sense. I'd like the restore the original functionality.

Panda10 (talk)14:19, 15 November 2014

Why is Hungarian so unique that it needs all this extra stuff that other languages don't need?

CodeCat16:43, 15 November 2014

I can't speak for other languages because I don't know them well. I think it would be a simple change for you. Can you just add it?

Panda10 (talk)17:45, 15 November 2014

Why not remove the "with"?

CodeCat17:49, 15 November 2014

Because the + sign is superfluous in these cases. It is not a root + suffix.

Panda10 (talk)17:54, 15 November 2014

Can you give an example of where this is used? I don't quite understand it right now.

CodeCat17:55, 15 November 2014
 
 
 
 
 

Reverting my edition

What is the reason for reversion of my edition? What did I do wrong? Thank you.

Viethoc (talk)20:50, 16 November 2014

You are writing the definitions in Vietnamese. But this is an English dictionary, the definitions should be written in English.

CodeCat20:51, 16 November 2014
 

How are you speeding up MewBot?

I notice that MewBot saves on the order of 20-30 changes per minute. I'm using a modified version of your blib for my bot, but every time it saves a page, it sleeps on the order of 5-8 secs, and I end up with only 5-7 changes per minute. This is using the page.save() function. Apparently you must be disabling throttling or using some API that doesn't throttle, or at least throttles less? t notice some scripts using page.put() or page.put_async(), and the code text = page.get(throttle=False), but I'm not sure how to directly control throttling, nor am I sure what the difference between page.save(), page.put() and page.put_async() is. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Benwing (talk)07:12, 13 November 2014

OK I think I figured it out, reducing the values of put_throttle, maxlag and maxthrottle in user-config.py. What settings do you use?

Benwing (talk)07:57, 13 November 2014

I only use put_throttle=1. Some people here think that this overloads the server, but I've been doing it a long time and I never noticed anything. Surely the servers are robust enough to handle one more request per second?

CodeCat15:30, 13 November 2014
 
 

Would the affix template you suggested work for this word?

Edited by another user.
Last edit: 02:06, 11 November 2014

Recently I asked Chuck Entz for advice on how to set up the etymology for a word. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User_talk:Chuck_Entz#Etymology_format_for_suffix_gloss

You suggested the following: An alternative is to use {{affix}}, a recently created template. It detects the type of affix (base, prefix, suffix, interfix) based on the parameters given, so there is no ambiguity. —CodeCat 01:59, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Today I posted a word that has two suffixes. My language (Wauja) uses suffixes quite exuberantly, and some words have three in a row, or more. Here is the word: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yamukunauntope The etymology that you see there now is just a placeholder, to show you how I would like it to be displayed to the visitor. But it's just manually formatted, which is not what I want because it won't add the example to a list of entries for that suffix. Could the affix template you mentioned serve in a case like this?

Thanks!

Emi-Ireland (talk)01:56, 11 November 2014

I've now added the template to the entry. I've also added a few others. You can see what I changed by viewing the history of the entry and comparing my edit with the version before it.

CodeCat02:06, 11 November 2014

Wow! Thanks! Very interesting. Much more efficient. Several questions:

  1. Is ux|wau|etc. what I should use for all my entries? Is the way I have my entries now deprecated?
  2. And what's the purpose of the "1" in this? l|wau|yamukutai||child
  3. Is there a write-up explaining what t1, t3, and pos2 are all about? I can carefully reuse that code (and thank you very much) but I would like to really understand the what, why, and wherefore.
  4. What characters can I use to escape, so that I can use braces as ordinary characters in my questions and examples?
  5. Ah yes, is there any way I can search everything I've posted? Because sometimes I find a typo in an example I've used in more than one place and I want to make sure the error didn't get replicated elsewhere. Currently I keep a Word document version of my posts for that purpose. Very inefficient, of course.

Thanks!

Emi-Ireland (talk)03:13, 11 November 2014
  1. There are two templates, {{usex}} and {{ux}}, that do the same thing but they are used differently (the parameter names are different). It's preferred to use them but it's not strictly wrong to do it the old way.
  2. It's not a 1 but a lowercase L. It stands for "link" or perhaps "list" and is a shortcut to the template {{link}}.
  3. The documentation for the template is located on its page, Template:affix. Generally speaking you can find information about any template (anything between {{ and the first |) by putting "Template:" before the name and then going to that page.
  4. Single braces are ok to use. It's only double or triple ones that need special treatment. Is that what you wanted to do?
  5. In the top right, there's a "Contributions" link which takes you to all the edits you ever made on Wiktionary. There's no real search feature but it may be helpful anyway.
CodeCat10:59, 11 November 2014

Thanks very much. That advice is very helpful. If you happen to see any Wauja entries that that done improperly or inefficiently, I would be grateful to hear about it. Currently, I am working by myself, and I'm a newbie. Soon I will get the Wauja/Portuguese site going. Next summer, I will go back to Brazil to train young Wauja to add entries to the Wauja/Portuguese site, since the young people are bilingual in Wauja and Portuguese, and that dictionary will be very important to them. Many of the young Wauja very capable at learning how to use unfamiliar digital tools. Though none of the three rainforest villages has a reliable internet connection, they have managed to make initial lexicons as MS Word documents, and the whole community is collaborating on standardizing the orthography. That's why I want to learn best practices myself, so I don't pass on bad habits. Thanks very much for the templates and other advice you have kindly provided.

Emi-Ireland (talk)15:58, 11 November 2014

I'd be happy to give feedback, but I won't be able to check every single entry let alone comment on it. I would recommend adding every Wauja page you create/edit to your watchlist (there is a checkbox for it above the button when you save your edits).

The watchlist is available through the link at the top right (next to the contributions link), and it automatically shows any edits that are done to any pages that are on the list. It works like a news feed or a favourites list.

If you check your watchlist regularly (once a day or so) you will be able to see when others have edited Wauja entries. That way you can see what they have changed (using the history/diff button) and that might help you improve things. I could of course notify you when I change one of your entries, but it's easier if you automatically get notified through your watchlist.

Of course you're still free to message me any time you want feedback or have a question, but this should help anyway.

CodeCat16:22, 11 November 2014
 
 
 
 
 

Sami/Finnic correspondences

Proto-Samic is absolutely full of Proto-Finnic (and later) loanwords. It is a good idea to not assert two similar words as cognates unless you know the further etymology, or exact references.

You can mostly check this thru the Álgu database… but you'll have to know the notation. So for example on the entry for *ājkē, you will note the type of arrow to Finnish is "!<". This does not mean "not loaned from", it means "possibly loaned from, yet in contradiction to another source".

In this particular case, given that

  1. in inherited Uralic vocabulary *a is reflected as Samic *uo
  2. the Finnic word has been explained as a Germanic or Indo-Iranian loan

loaning seems to be the better explanation.

Tropylium (talk)23:45, 8 November 2014

I used "cognate" precisely because I didn't want to commit to anything either way. It means a word is from the same common origin, but that doesn't mean Finnic can't be that origin. I realise this may not be how the term is commonly understood, but how else do you say "from the same source" if not "cognate"?

CodeCat23:51, 8 November 2014

I believe the term for "same origin as this word, possibly via descent from it" is "akin to". On the Finnic side this doesn't work either though, as descendants do not belong in the etymology section (much like how we do not claim that Latin hora is "cognate to" English hour.)

Tropylium (talk)23:59, 8 November 2014
 
 

Sami/Finnic correspondences

Proto-Samic is absolutely full of Proto-Finnic (and later) loanwords. It is a good idea to not assert two similar words as cognates unless you know the further etymology, or exact references.

You can mostly check this thru the Álgu database… but you'll have to know the notation. So for example on the entry for *ājkē, you will note the type of arrow to Finnish is "!<". This does not mean "not loaned from", it means "possibly loaned from, yet in contradiction to another source".

In this particular case, given that

  1. in inherited Uralic vocabulary *a is reflected as Samic *uo
  2. the Finnic word has been explained as a Germanic or Indo-Iranian loan

loaning seems to be the better explanation.

Tropylium (talk)23:43, 8 November 2014

Musical terms

In some cases, an abbreviation from one language means something entirely different in another language. For example, "Tr." could refer to drums or trumpet. If the composer wasn't German, it definitely isn't the drums. A German composer wouldn't abbreviate trumpet as "Tr." because that's used strictly for drums. Similarly, "Kb." could refer to the double bass in German or the keyboard in English. And (for obvious reasons), "Fag." is only used in German and Italian music-- never English!

There are a few Italian words that are used across all languages of music notation, and these are the ones used for dynamics and tempo (e.g. "mezzo-forte" and "allegro"). But no musician would call those English words!

Aside from the standard Italian dynamics and tempos, the remainder of music notation is generally written in the composer's native tongue. I am looking at some examples right now; an American piece uses "in a strict tempo", "sizzling", "much brighter", and "mysterious". An Italian piece uses terms like "tranquillamente", "energico", and "sostenuto". A German piece has terms like "nicht schleppend", etc. These terms would never appear in music written in a different language.

Bob the Wikipedian (talkcontribs) 12:59, 5 November 2014

I see. Well, if certain terms are used for all languages, then they should be put in a ==Translingual== language section. We use this "language" for a wide variety of international terminology. For some reason we also use it for Chinese characters, which I don't really agree with.

CodeCat14:27, 5 November 2014
 

{{tl|head}}

Can do! Thanks for letting me know!

Bob the Wikipedian (talkcontribs) 03:21, 3 November 2014

I must have accidentally left {{head}} off of some of them. I appreciate the pointers! I'll see how much of my mess I can clean up this evening. :)

Bob the Wikipedian (talkcontribs) 22:34, 4 November 2014

You didn't leave it off. For backwards compatibility reasons, {{head}} allows the second parameter (the part of speech category) to be left empty. But when it's left empty, no category is added (of course). That's what happened here.

CodeCat22:38, 4 November 2014
 
 

Can you get f1tr= working again in {{temp|head}}?

Your changes to Module:headword clearly support transliterations for inflections, but the old f1tr= etc. params don't work anymore. This is used e.g. by Template:arz-noun, the Egyptian Arabic equivalent of Template:ar-noun. BTW if you want to clean up Template:arz-noun like you did for Template:ar-noun, be my guest.

Benwing (talk)05:40, 4 November 2014

They never did work as far as I know. I've now added support for them.

CodeCat18:21, 4 November 2014

Thanks!

Benwing (talk)19:08, 4 November 2014
 
 

Module:grc-conj

Could you please explain the effect of this edit? ObsequiousNewt (ἔβαζα|ἐτλέλεσα) 19:41, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

ObsequiousNewt (ἔβαζα|ἐτλέλεσα)19:41, 3 November 2014

language_link only creates a link but it doesn't wrap the text in the right language tags. full_link does both.

CodeCat19:44, 3 November 2014
 

Autocannons are not machine guns

By definition, an autocannon and a machine gun are two different things. That's the point I was making on the Cannon definition.

2602:47:239E:3D00:2930:9CA0:7714:8E5702:28, 30 October 2014

But the point of the entry is to show what people might mean when using the word "cannon". One of those things is what is more accurately described as an autocannon.

CodeCat02:48, 30 October 2014

That's exactly what I said, that "cannon" is often short for "autocannon" when discussing aircraft. So why remove it?

2602:47:239E:3D00:2930:9CA0:7714:8E5703:31, 30 October 2014

I thought you removed it, not me?

CodeCat14:12, 30 October 2014

No, I added it and then you removed it.

2602:4B:AC4E:6800:388B:977B:6489:E4CA01:23, 31 October 2014
 

I'll go ahead and put it back then since it seems to have been a misunderstanding.

2602:4B:AC4E:6800:388B:977B:6489:E4CA01:26, 31 October 2014

Again you removed the definition "A large-bore machine gun". So yes, you did remove it.

CodeCat01:36, 31 October 2014
 
 
 
 
 

Template:Greek and Coptic character info

Hi,

You added |sc=Grek here whereas we already had |sc=Grek. What should we keep?

Kind regards,

Automatik (talk)20:28, 1 November 2014

I just picked the first one to keep.

CodeCat20:29, 1 November 2014
 

l docs

This part should be updated as you recently changed the behaviour of script detection: "and if it fails to detect the script, the language's default script (the first listed in Module:languages) will be used"

Z08:37, 31 October 2014

Ok, done. We should probably unify the documentation of all the linking templates anyway, as they all work the same way.

CodeCat16:46, 31 October 2014

Thanks. We need to have some sort of a common sub-doc for the module that would be transcluded in the middle of doc page of these templates.

Z18:02, 31 October 2014

We could just redirect them all, like we did with {{t}}.

CodeCat18:05, 31 October 2014

I see what you mean now. Yes, we can put everything (description, shortcuts) about l, m, etc. in one page, good idea.

Z18:22, 31 October 2014
 
 
 
 

Another Day, Another Odd Error

I bet you don't remember typing what's displayed here...

Chuck Entz (talk)02:36, 31 October 2014

No, not really. But that template is barely used anywhere so orphaning it would be good enough. If we want to use it again we should make a Lua version.

CodeCat02:38, 31 October 2014
 
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