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Thread titleRepliesLast modified
sami-110:01, 25 July 2014
Are you a sysop (to get added to the AWB list)?205:33, 24 July 2014
Lemma List319:32, 23 July 2014
Thank you!010:41, 22 July 2014
Macedonian Lemma List307:54, 22 July 2014
Script-related issue in the templates423:00, 19 July 2014
Apoteozo521:58, 19 July 2014
Vandalizm words in Turkish.119:41, 19 July 2014
Japanese Template misuse by MewBot218:15, 19 July 2014
change to template lv-adj416:00, 18 July 2014
"Loan Oversetting"118:50, 17 July 2014
Script list519:46, 16 July 2014
Conjugation of "overdenken" rendered incorrectly201:29, 15 July 2014
Script names523:28, 14 July 2014
Emptied categories (Norwegian)220:57, 14 July 2014
{{diff|24555665}}211:36, 14 July 2014
What Wiktionary is not119:55, 12 July 2014
Dynamic Columns/Rows1108:49, 12 July 2014
PIE *plōtus etymology622:34, 11 July 2014
Verb imperative forms611:35, 11 July 2014
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Is [[sami-]] salvageable? I think you know better than me.

Keφr09:48, 25 July 2014

I fixed it.

CodeCat10:01, 25 July 2014

Are you a sysop (to get added to the AWB list)?

Hello. Do you have sysop privileges? I'm looking to do a bunch of regex-type changes to the conjugations of Old French verbs and it's too painful to do this without something like AWB.

Benwing (talk)00:34, 24 July 2014

I am but I have no idea how I would go about that. It might be better to ask in WT:GP?

CodeCat00:42, 24 July 2014

I've asked on WT:BP, which is what the AWB page recommends.

Benwing (talk)05:33, 24 July 2014

Lemma List

I have noticed that not all lemma entries are automatically going to a lemma list for their respective language. Is this intentional or are there some issues? For example, Dutch seems to have only around 700 lemma terms in the lemma list, whereas many more lemma terms have been entered for it all in all. I thought this odd. I also noticed that for some Serbo-Croatian nouns, such as ogrlica, there is no link to the lemma list at the bottom of the page, although the Serbo-Croatian lemma list has quite a few entries, almost 20,000.

Martin123xyz (talk)19:22, 16 July 2014

Right now, only {{head}}, and by extension any templates that use it, have been modified in this way. But there are still several headword templates that don't use it, but something else. There are also some that use a special module instead of going through {{head}}. I do intend to fix those eventually, but it will take a while. Right now I'm trying to make sure that all pages that use {{head}} also specify a part of speech. There's still 3000 to fix...

CodeCat19:33, 16 July 2014

I'm looking forward to the English lemma list (also very empty at the moment) being fully populated. It's something I would use relatively often (as a reader rather than an editor), so thanks! Maybe we should destroy or redirect the out-of-date Index:English at that future stage.

Equinox 19:30, 23 July 2014

If you want to help out, something like a list of all headword templates that use neither {{head}} nor (possibly indirectly) Module:headword would be very useful. Those are the ones that would be the hardest to track down and update.

CodeCat19:32, 23 July 2014

Thank you!

Thank you for deleting Modulis:it-head. It is my mistake. I try to made this in Latvian wiktionary, and mistaken. --Čumbavamba (talk) 10:41, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

New thread10:41, 22 July 2014

Macedonian Lemma List

I've noticed that the number of Macedonian lemmas in the list is decreasing. Why is this so? Is someone deleting entries? Are you removing entries from the lemma list because they were not actually lemmas and had gotten misplaced? I can't really know what's happening because there are over 5,000 entries in the list, such that I can't notice when something has changed.

Martin123xyz (talk)14:19, 21 July 2014

I have no idea to be honest. Can you point me to an entry that was there before, but isn't anymore?

CodeCat14:22, 21 July 2014

I'm afraid I cannot because I haven't noticed anything specific. I just know that yesterday there were about 5440 entries in the list, whereas there are 5320 now.

Martin123xyz (talk)17:38, 21 July 2014

Now, the list suddenly has about 5760 terms - how odd.

Martin123xyz (talk)07:54, 22 July 2014

Script-related issue in the templates

I noticed a script-related issue in our templates, I don't know which module is responsible exactly as I've completely forgotten which module do what because I wasn't here for a while but it must be related to language utilites or script utilites or their related modules so I'm bringing it up here. The problem is script is chosen solely based on the script detection function and if it fails, the "None" class is used, instead of the first script in m.lang.scripts.


{{head|ccp|noun|head=𑄚𑄳𑄟}}: 𑄚𑄳𑄟
{{l|ccp|𑄚𑄳𑄟}}: 𑄚𑄳𑄟

Related data in Module:languages/data3/c, note "scripts":

m["ccp"] = {
        names = {"Chakma"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Cakm"},
        family = "inc"}

Related data in Module:scripts/data, note the lack of "characters":

m["Cakm"] = {
        names = { "Chakma" },
Z22:24, 19 July 2014

I suppose that if there is only one script listed, we could use it as fallback if detection fails.

CodeCat22:26, 19 July 2014

But as far as I recall we have always treated the first script in the list as the default one. and I think it's a good practice. Anyway, in this case we have only one script listed, but our templates mistakenly use "None" instead.

Z22:34, 19 July 2014

That was before we had Lua. Now, all scripts are treated as equal, with none given priority. This is still useful because there are cases where detection fails because the text actually isn't in any of the scripts. But in this case it fails because it's just not able to detect it at all. So that's a different case, and we could look at that.

That said, why can't the characters just be added to the script data instead? That would solve it.

CodeCat22:38, 19 July 2014

So that was intentional? Ok, but we should have add the characters first, it has broken older entries and has caused confusion for users.[1]

By the way, the functionality of the detect_script is not perfect.

Z23:00, 19 July 2014


Hello CodeCat,

Thanks for your additions to apoteozo. Though it could certainly use a bit of expansion, in what way does the entry need clean up? I'm afraid I don't quite follow. The entry is new, less than an hour old.

Wikijeff (talk)19:20, 19 July 2014

The definition "to become a god" is worded as a verb, so it suggests that the word is a verb too. But the word is a noun so this is confusing.

CodeCat19:20, 19 July 2014

Okay, that makes sense. I have changed the definition to read "Apotheosis, to become a god." The first clause (before the comma) is in keeping with the definition of apoteozo in ESPDIC. The second clause (after the comma) in the sentence is intended simply for clarity. I'm going to remove the clean up tag now, unless you object.

Wikijeff (talk)21:37, 19 July 2014

Maybe something like "(the act of) becoming a god"?

CodeCat21:41, 19 July 2014

How about "Apotheosis: the fact or action of becoming or making into a god." This is the English language definition of the term almost verbatim. I've only slightly modified the punctuation and dropped the reference to "deify" because that, in Esperanto, would be something like apoteozita.

Wikijeff (talk)21:54, 19 July 2014

That's ok.

CodeCat21:58, 19 July 2014

Vandalizm words in Turkish.

Hi, 88.XXX.XX.XXX on IP doesn't writes true words. "emes, karamazdan, yağday..." words isn't Turkish. You can look at there for example.

123snake45 (talk)13:16, 19 July 2014

Düşerge isn't camp at Turkish. It is "pay, miras payı". Camp is düşərgə at Azeri. 88.XXX.XXX.XX IP prefabricated that word.

123snake45 (talk)19:41, 19 July 2014

Japanese Template misuse by MewBot

There are three types of Japanese kanji categories that normally show up in Wanted Categories:

  1. [[Category:Japanese terms spelled with <kanji> read as <hiragana>]]. The category takes takes {{ja-readingcat}} with three numbered parameters:
    1. The kanji (required)
    2. The hiragana (required)
    3. The type of reading- normally either "on" or "kun". It can be left blank, but it gets added to a cleanup category.
  2. [[Category:Japanese kanji read as <hiragana>]]. The category takes {{ja-readascat}}, with only one parameter:
    1. The hiragana (required)
  3. [[Category:Japanese terms spelled with <kanji>]]. This isn't a Japanese-specific type of category- I've always just used {{charactercat}}, which takes two parameters for these entries:
    1. The language code (ja)
    2. The kanji

The first category is added by a template to the entries themselves. {{ja-readingcat}} in the first category adds the other two categories to that category. All three category types should be very easy to automate: all of the information needed to populate the template parameters is included in the category name in a very consistent pattern. The third parameter for {{ja-readingcat}} is an exception, since it's completely unpredictable- but it's optional

Haplology never got around to putting much error-checking in these, so bad input creates categories that look deceptively normal. In the 28 categories of the second type that I just fixed, {{ja-readingcat}} is the wrong template for such categories and "kanji" is the wrong first parameter, but it sort of works. For example, in the original version of Category:Japanese terms spelled with kanji read as ゆみ, the first line reads "This category lists Japanese terms spelled with kanji read as ゆみ." It's only when you check the linked word that you find that it's linking to "kanji#Japanese" as if kanji were the entry for a CJKV character. All three categories at the bottom of the page are bogus, but look real. The first should be something like Category:Japanese terms spelled with 弓, but is instead [[Category:Japanese terms spelled with kanji]]. The second is a self-reference, and the third shouldn't be there at all.

Before I started using the Japanese templates, I spent a good bit of time looking at existing categories and the entries that referenced them to see what the current practice was, and how everything worked. You should have, too. Please be more careful.

Chuck Entz (talk)07:31, 19 July 2014

I suppose that rather than considering this an error, we could adjust the template so it handles the case where the first parameter is "kanji" properly?

CodeCat10:59, 19 July 2014

Why? {{ja-readascat}} and {{ja-readingcat}} do different things. If you want a template to do both, you don't need a parameter to tell which one- it's all there in the category name:

  1. "Japanese terms spelled with " + <character>:
    1. Nothing following: {{charactercat|ja|<character>}}
    2. Followed by " read as " + <hiragana>: {{ja-readingcat|<character>|<hiragana>}}
  2. "Japanese kanji read as " + <hiragana>: {{ja-readascat|<hiragana>}}

It would be nice to have something with a name like {{ja-readcat}}, having one optional parameter for the reading type, which would only be used in cases now covered by {{ja-readingcat}}. This would make it extremely easy for humans to use and require no decisions by bots beyond recognizing the categories that use it. Using the new name rather than either of the old ones would mean not having to allow for the old parameters.

The simplest thing would be to just have the new template behave as above, acting as a front end to call the correct template with the correct parameter(s). If you want to merge the templates, then incorporate the logic of the two ja templates in the new template, but don't mess with the charactercat part of it, for compatibility with all the other languages.

Chuck Entz (talk)18:14, 19 July 2014

change to template lv-adj

Hi! I undid your changes to {{lv-adj}}, since they caused a problem with indeclinable adjectives like rozā or aizkuņģa: these were being presented as if they had a definite form, when in fact they don't. This is probably because of some little glitch in the conditional structure after you introduced all those spaces in the template. Personally, I prefer templates without spaces (strangely enough, I find them much easier to read without all the extra spaces and '<--'s and '-->'s), but I have nothing against you introducing them in templates if you want to -- just make sure you let me know when you make a change like that to a Latvian template, so that I can check that nothing has changed in the output (I will know places to look that you probably won't think of); if something has changed, I can let you know and you can fix it without me undoing your changes. No big deal, just a little thing. --Pereru (talk) 05:16, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Pereru (talk)05:16, 21 June 2014

Could you tell me what needs to be changed then? I find your original code completely unreadable so I have no idea what is wrong.

CodeCat11:50, 21 June 2014

I also find your version unreadable, so it's difficult for me to find out exactly what was wrong with it; besides, I'm not exactly swimming in free time these days, as you may have noticed. If you're interested, you can try to do the detective work yourself -- just run a page like rozā or starpzvaigžņu, which describe indeclinable adjectives, through one of the versions you created (which incorrectly labels them as having a definite form), and compare it to my version (which doesn't). If you're not that much into it, then just leave the template as it is. As they say, don't fix what ain't broke.

Pereru (talk)06:02, 22 June 2014

That's why I fixed it in the first place! Can you describe under what conditions there is no declined form?

CodeCat10:29, 22 June 2014

You fixed it because it wasn't broken? I don't understand your answer.

Usually, borrowed words (like rozā), or 'genitival adjectives' (really old genitive forms) like starpzvaigžņu. I indicate these with a hyphen as the first argument in {{lv-adj}} (the first #ifeq statement handles that). Is this what you wanted to know?

Pereru (talk)15:58, 18 July 2014

"Loan Oversetting"

Edited by author.
Last edit: 18:50, 17 July 2014

(NOTE: When I say "cleansed/ceunde/pure/native English", I refer to the use of English words that are of Germanic origin. They can come through any route (Spanish gave English "ranch" which ultimately derives from Proto-Germanic *hringaz, French gave English "seize" which ultimately derives from Proto-Germanic *sakjaną, Japanese gave English "skinship", and English also inherits many native words from Old English. When I say "cleansed/ceunde/pure/native English", I also refer to words that have been present in English since Old English times, even if they aren't of Germanic origin.)


I just wished to ask you, as a Dutch speaker, if Dutch has any particular method of coining words from old roots or forming metaphors that English might lack.

See, I'm a linguistic purist, and I also write poetry in cleansed/ceunde English. Sometimes, I find it difficult to describe something in just pure English. At those times, I look to metaphors.

In this respect, various pidgin languages have come in handy. But sometimes, I like to look to other, fellow Germanic languages for answers. Most oftentimes, I will look to Icelandic, as it is a particularly conservative Germanic language. Other times, I prefer to look to Dutch for answers instead, among other things due to its long trade history with English. Years ago, my delvings into Dutch led to the word "unforstandy" (loan translation of "onverstandig") permanently entering the vocabulary of myself, my family and my friends (albeit with the slightly semantically shifted meaning of "foolish").

Since you are a native speaker of Dutch, I thought to ask you for advice on this matter.

Tharthan (talk)18:04, 17 July 2014

It's probably best to look at the structure of the word first. onverstandig comes from on- (un-) + verstandig (sensible, wise). The latter in turn derives from verstand (reason, mind, understanding), which finally is closely tied to verstaan (to understand). So you would need to follow this structure in English too.

However, the first hurdle is already that English uses a slightly different root word, understand. The second is that English does not have a noun paired with this word in the same way that Dutch has, unless you use understanding. But this doesn't allow an adjective to be derived from it in the same way, something meaning "of or related to understanding"... understandingy just doesn't really cut it.

Another approach is to look for synonyms of any of the intermediate steps. Starting from the end, you might translate verstand with mind, and following the process then gives mind(l)y and unmind(l)y. But you can also translate verstandig directly, giving wise, and then of course you simply end up with unwise which is a perfectly good translation of the Dutch onverstandig. :)

CodeCat18:13, 17 July 2014

Script list

Hi CodeCat, For the translations, there does seem to be a (more) automatic way of adding the word "script" (or indeed any other convenient sign) to script names used in the translations. However, I do not seem to be able to enter them. You, on the other hand, seem to have able to alter at least part of the page. How can I help clarify the script indications that are supposedly hidden on that page?

Redav (talk)01:24, 15 July 2014

Which page are you referring to exactly?

CodeCat01:38, 15 July 2014

Redav (talk)19:17, 16 July 2014

The information on that page is automatically generated, based on the data in Module:scripts/data.

CodeCat19:20, 16 July 2014

And the page ( it points to is (also) protected against editing by me. I would be prepared to add the word "script" wherever appropriate in that script, if it is easy to find out how to do it in a correct and helpful way.

Redav (talk)19:45, 16 July 2014

That would not work, because firstly, this page does not control the text in the pages you are editing. Rather, it's used by templates. Secondly, those templates also need to be able to use the name without "script" attached to it.

CodeCat19:46, 16 July 2014

Conjugation of "overdenken" rendered incorrectly

Hi CodeCat, The conjugation at is rendered incorrectly. I have tried to change it by removing an indicator that seemed to the verb is separable, which it is not. But that (on its own) does not improve the contents of the table.

Redav (talk)23:17, 14 July 2014

I've fixed it now, by changing the table and also deleting and editing the entries for all the forms.

CodeCat23:46, 14 July 2014

Probably some parts of the page are hidden from me, since I can see no separate entries on the Edit-page, just:


Redav (talk)01:29, 15 July 2014

Script names

I do insist that writing "Latin" instead of "Latin script" or "Latin spelling" creates confusion on pages lik, even if it be only with me. It would be perfectly fine with me to write "Cyrillic script" or "Cyrillic spelling" instead of just "Cyrillic". Compare, where "Urdu spelling" is used rather than "Urdu".

Another option might be to use the word "Roman" instead of "Latin", as in the Serbo-Croatian translation in the translations list of "human abode" on But then we might have to invent find or invent alternative names for other scripts, for in that same translations list, the Aramaic translations are confusingly presented behind words that may indicate languages, namely Syriac and Hebrew.

The omission of indicators is the more confusing since the script names and language names are presented in similar ways in the lists at e.g. (e.g. Syriac and Hebrew vs. Lower Sorbian and Upper Sorbian) and (e.g. Cyrillic and Latin vs. Lower Sorbian and Upper Sorbian).

But I am not knowledgeable enough to create automatized ways of doing this. Please help!

Redav (talk)21:30, 14 July 2014

There is no simple automatic way to do this, unfortunately. The only way is to fix them all manually...

CodeCat22:14, 14 July 2014

Hi CodeCat, I brought the subject to the attention of just an hour ago, if at all that is a proper way. There also seem to be more knowledgeable people behind Wiktionary, but the message and communication system itself of Wiktionary deems rather intricate to me. One may write on someone's Talk page, messages do sometimes come through email, message pop up after clicking a "Thanks"-button or similar. I know I got lost there. So, yes, manually would be my way. It reminds me of all those monks copying book after book by hand in medieval monasteries. I will not, however, change all entries one after another. I may proceed on a "when encountered" basis.

Redav (talk)22:28, 14 July 2014

I am the one reading your email message at the moment, but I think local talk pages are a better place now you understand how the system works. At the helpdesk we mainly help newbies to find their way at the Wiki.

Jcb (talk)23:28, 14 July 2014

After reading a little on your User page, I got impressed with what you seem to be able of. Would you be a person that could (invoke) help if I told you that a major struggle for me is the lack of easy and clear links on a particular page to * all * relevant templates and other structures that might apply to that page, and in such a way that clicking or opening them does not close the page that one is working on? Until now, I look around for an example on the page itself or on a similar page, and then copy it, hoping it will work properly without irritating anyone, like I managed to do with you ;-) on that languages-and-scripts issue. Btw your mother tongue is also mine, but I suppose we should write in English here, should we not?

Redav (talk)22:42, 14 July 2014

able of => capable of

Redav (talk)22:43, 14 July 2014

Emptied categories (Norwegian)

I have emptied out the following two categories - One entry remains in the latter category, which I have nominated for speedy deletion. These two categories are unnecessary, as the spellings of comparatives and superlatives in Bokmål (-ere, -est, -igst, -este, igste) and Nynorsk (-are, -ast, -aste) always differ from each other.

Donnanz (talk)20:49, 14 July 2014

Empty categories will now automatically appear in a cleanup category (Category:Empty categories), where they can either be filled or deleted.

CodeCat20:51, 14 July 2014

OK, fine. Preferably deleted in this case.

Donnanz (talk)20:57, 14 July 2014


Why the changed language code?

Yair rand (talk)09:27, 14 July 2014

Sorry, forgot that templates aren't parsed in LQT headers. diff

Yair rand (talk)09:28, 14 July 2014

I have no idea.

CodeCat11:36, 14 July 2014

What Wiktionary is not

Could you add the most recent edit of it to Wiktionary:Bad jokes and other deleted nonsense. Could not be more appropriate there.

Renard Migrant (talk)19:52, 12 July 2014

Here it is, you can do it...

{{rfd}}This is a list of what Wiktionary is not. We are using this so that you can understand what Wiktionary is not the place for. Enjoy.

==The list of what Wiktionary is not==

===1. Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia===
Wiktionary is not an '''encyclopedia''' for writing about companies, organizations, services, etc. If you need to write an encyclopedia, go to Wikipedia.

===2. Wiktionary is not where to describe about news===
Wiktionary is not the place to describe '''news broadcasts''', or '''any''' type of news. If you would like to write a news broadcast, Wikinews is the place to do so.

===3. Wiktionary is not the place for quotes===
Wiktionary is not the place to add quotes from movies, books, audiobooks, etc. Go to Wikiquote if you would like to do that.

===4. Wiktionary is not the place to spam, scam, etc===
Wiktionary is not where you spam, scam, or do anything like post links to websites that could give your computer a virus.

===5. Wiktionary is not the place for vandalism===
Wiktionary is not for vandalism, or any type of edits causing loads of work for the community. Wiktionary is also not the place to constantly create pages and leave them blank.

===6. Wiktionary is not the place for porn===
Wiktionary is not anything that counts as porn, which would be considered as uploading pictures of yourself without any clothes on, or only your shirt on.

===7. Wiktionary is not the place to throw what we consider "online parties"===
Wiktionary is not the place for people to purposely join and cause trouble by vandalizing pages and making unwanted edits.

===8. Wiktionary is not Facebook===
Wiktionary is not the place to talk to people while online. If you are here to chat, go to another site.

===9. Wiktionary is not the place to play games===
Wiktionary is not where you play games, such as Learn to Fly, Learn to Fly 2, Flight, etc.

===10. Wiktionary is not the place to advertise===
Wiktionary is not where you advertise your websites, products, games, apps, inventions, or any other things by you.
CodeCat19:55, 12 July 2014

Dynamic Columns/Rows

I have now learned that if I use {{#if:{{{0|}}}||}}} to determine what's supposed to happen if some parameter is equal to one and what's supposed to happen if it's not equal to one, but I don't know how to use this to create new rows in a table. I need to know how to do this to be able to have the noun table add a row for the count form for masculine nouns when I set some parameter equal to one (let's say "cf"). Now, I only know how to make the code add the count form rather than a dash when the appropriate parameter is defined but this is not satisfactory, because I don't want the count form's row appearing for feminine and neuter nouns. So, could you advise me as to what I should do? I don't think I can just add the code for the new row within one of the parameters of the aforementioned if statements. I tried and the whole template got messed up.

Martin123xyz (talk)17:39, 10 July 2014

Showing and hiding table cells or whole rows with "if" is a bit tricky, because the table formatting code interferes with the code for the "if". Both use |, so things get a little confused. Furthermore, table formatting depends on the presence of line breaks, so if you don't get those right, things also don't work.

For the first problem, the solution is to use the template {{!}} instead of | whenever you want to use a | for a table formatting tag, but inside some other kind of conditional code like "if" or "switch". This makes the code look even harder to understand but at least it works.

For the second problem you have to keep some things in mind when it comes to tables. All the table-specific formatting tags, like and | (new cell) and |- (new row), must be placed at the beginning of a line. They can be placed inside "if", but then that "if" must be placed on the beginning of the line, so that when it is evaluated and replaced with the result text, the table tags will end up on the beginning of the line instead of the "if".

I hope this helps.

CodeCat17:45, 10 July 2014

Thank you for the suggestions - I thought about {{!}} too, after seeing it in the Bulgarian templates, but I'm afraid that the count form still doesn't work.

This is what I put in the general noun template:

{{#if:{{{cf|}}}|style="background:#eff7ff" {{!}} '''count form''' {{!}}{{!}}— {{!}}{{!}} {{#if:{{{cf_pl|}}}|{{l-self|mk|{{{cf_pl}}}|tr=-}}|—}}|}}

This is what I put in the masculine noun template:


This is what I put on the page for "маж".


However, no results were produced - everything is the way it was before. I'm presuming that lots of things are terribly wrong with the code I put in the general noun template. How should I fix it? Also, is there any other way to make rows appear and disappear besides these if-statements, if these are not so effective?

Martin123xyz (talk)18:05, 10 July 2014

This is because you are looking to see if one parameter (cf) is empty, but then you display an entirely different parameter (cf_pl). I suggest using just one name, such as "count", for the parameter, as there is no singular form anyway.

Also, don't all masculine nouns ending in a consonant have a count form?

CodeCat18:08, 10 July 2014

Okay, I'll change that and see what happens.

By the way, yes, all masculine nouns ending in a consonant have a count form. However, it's not always derived by simply adding "-а" to the singular stem because sometimes elision is involved. Thus, I will later make another parameter that specifies whether a default count form should be made with the addition of "-а" to the page name or if the provided stem should be used. I haven't done that yet because I was trying to make the dynamic row work first.

Martin123xyz (talk)18:12, 10 July 2014

Okay, I changed it, but the count form went in the wrong place. Look what happened:

Martin123xyz (talk)18:14, 10 July 2014

PIE *plōtus etymology

I'm sorry for the back and forth about this one. I was working off of the AHD of IE Roots ( section I.6. which lists the the lengthened o-grade of *pleu- as *plō(u)- (or *plō(w)-, as the case may be). It seems very convenient of them just to list the u/w as optional, but do you think that this is a fair explanation, particularly if we list it as *plō(w}- + -*tus?

JohnC5 (talk)21:11, 11 July 2014

The problem is that there is no established sound change that would turn -ōw- into -ō-. -ōw- was allowed as a diphthong in Proto-Indo-European, just compare *gʷṓws (cow). So the change of -ōw- to -ō- must be accounted for somehow. Furthermore, the Germanic form does not necessarily need to reflect *plōtus. The -ō- could also originate from -eh₂- or -eh₃-. In fact, M Philippa's etymological dictionary of Dutch (which I've found to be very reliable over time) mentions a root *pleh₃- as a possible source of the Germanic words.

CodeCat21:18, 11 July 2014

Ok, thanks for the input. Hopefully others will try to figure that out then. I wonder then why the AHD of IE Roots would allow that etymology in then? I had always understood it to be very reliable. Also, thank you for helping me in these early days of my Wiktionary editing.

JohnC5 (talk)21:26, 11 July 2014

Etymological dictionaries are often collections of information from various sources. They don't necessarily do any in-depth researching themselves, and may not have the know-how to judge them all. It's also possible that they just made mistakes or missed things, though. They're still human...

CodeCat21:39, 11 July 2014

Kroonen gives -ōw- to -ō- as regular before a hiatus. I can go through and list some examples if you want.

Confusingly, he lists the Pre-Germanic form of *flōduz as *ploh₃tús, but states it is derived from the root of *flōaną, which he gives as *plōw-, as necessary for related *flawją (ship) and *flaumaz (stream). Maybe it's a middle ground of *pleh₃-u-?

Anglom (talk)22:27, 11 July 2014

For Germanic, that might indeed apply, yes. But this is a PIE reconstruction, and I doubt there was a law for the same there.

CodeCat22:29, 11 July 2014

Yeah, sorry. It's a Germanic development, I should have specified.

Anglom (talk)22:34, 11 July 2014

Verb imperative forms

Don't think I haven't noticed. Have you got an aversion to these?

Donnanz (talk)08:29, 11 July 2014

Why would we have a category for verb imperative forms specifically? What is the use of such a category?

CodeCat08:32, 11 July 2014

I don't know the answer to that, the category was already in existence. If you want to record imperatives as both verb forms and verb imperative forms, you can use head|nb|verb form, then {{imperative of| ; however there is an aesthetic problem with that template, as the wording is "Imperative of" instead of "imperative of". Can that be altered? At the moment you are emptying the verb imperatives file.

Donnanz (talk)09:10, 11 July 2014

That was my intention, actually. I don't think imperative forms are special enough to warrant having a category of their own, especially not when we don't have (and shouldn't have) categories for all the other forms. Could you imagine what a nightmare it would be to have a category for every inflected form in every language? Imperatives are not like, say, participles, which are not quite like regular verb forms because they inflect themselves and therefore are somewhat more like lemmas (the term I've seen used on Wiktionary is "sublemma").

CodeCat09:25, 11 July 2014

Hmm, as long as they are still identified as imperatives. Norwegian is not alone, you will find a file for Danish verb imperative forms with 604 entries currently.

Donnanz (talk)09:40, 11 July 2014

Of course, the definitions in the entry won't change. I'm just removing the category.

CodeCat11:29, 11 July 2014
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