Enoshd

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Again, welcome! --WikiTiki89 21:38, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Hebrew entries

I noticed you've been doing some work on our Hebrew entries. This is much appreciated! However, it would be helpful if you followed our formatting standards. See WT:HE TR for our Hebrew transliteration rules. In general, pay attention to my corrections of your edits and learn from them and you should do fine. --WikiTiki89 21:38, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi, would like to remind you again to follow the transliteration rules given at WT:HE TR. Also, please check a dictionary before adding nikkud, since you seem to be making a lot of mistakes. --WikiTiki89 02:02, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Don't mind WikiTiki. He means well, but his zeal for correct transliteration is misapplied. (For real, Wiki, how often do people come along who care about editing Hebrew? B"R 70:5, dude.)

Anyway, we use WT:HE TR to try to be simple and consistent. I've never been a big fan of the transliteration system we use, so I'd understand if you don't like it and don't want to use it. If that's the case my advice would be to just not do transliteration at all. I have two reasons for this: 1) eventually someone else will probably come along and do it, and if not, niqud are sufficient; and 2) Wiktionary needs a lot of work in Hebrew entries − transliteration is least among them. — [Ric Laurent] — 14:10, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I actually agree. I don't like our transliteration system, but for now it is the one we use and it is better to be consistent. If you don't want to follow our transliteration system, just leave the transliteration out. But much more important is the correct nikkud, so please check a dictionary if you are unsure, rather than adding the wrong nikkud. --WikiTiki89 15:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Leaving the transliteration out is what I've been doing, but I'm not sure if I should add the terms to Category:Hebrew terms lacking transliteration or not. Enoshd (talk) 12:15, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

There's no need; I think the templates do it automagically. — [Ric Laurent] — 12:21, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you don't need to add the category manually. It is added automatically by the headword template if the transliteration is missing. --WikiTiki89 23:09, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

If automatic transliteration can be made for over, say 70% of entries, then an automatic (with no override) transliteration should be made and used, allowing for manual transliteration where necessary, like Arabic. If, e.g. kamats is transliterated as "a" in a vast majority of cases, then it could be default, "o" can be added manually, where necessary. Automatic transliteration would ensure that more standard (whatever the current standard is) transliterations is used and a change to the module will automatically update changes, e.g. if "š" is chosen of "sh" for שׁ. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:00, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm tempted to say that could probably work, though it would take time and I don't know how to do it. But I wouldn't encourage anyone to tackle that mission anyway; looking at what auto-translit does to Yiddish churns my tum. lol — [Ric Laurent] — 09:06, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@Dick Laurent Thanks, Ric. User:Benwing, User:Wyang, User:Kephir or [[User:CodeCat might be able to do it, if they have time and interest. Yiddish auto-translit is overridable with the manual one, so is Arabic, Russian and so should (definitely) be Hebrew. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:44, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

The translit module part is easy, in fact it's already there. I think what Dick/Ric was referring to was the enormous task of making sure every entry that needs a translit override has one. --WikiTiki89 00:56, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

The module needs a lot of work, I did it based on the About Hebrew page and I don't know Hebrew. An important feature of the Arabic module is that it only transliterates vocalised Arabic, missing diacritics in the middle of words returns nothing, which should be also implemented with Hebrew, not sure about Yiddish. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:02, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Re: "enormous task of making sure every entry that needs a translit override has one". Agreed. Are there distinct situations (characters, combinations), which should be paid attention to as a priority, like kamats? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:07, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the problem is kamats is the most common vowel. I suppose a good indicator would be an unstressed kamats followed by a shva or dagesh. We would also need to start indicating non-final stress in the Hebrew text, with either a meteg or 'ole. The problem with that is that there are font problems when the meteg is next to a vowel written below and when the 'ole is next to a vowel written above. --WikiTiki89 01:30, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

It seems word stress is another serious issue. Is it absolutely required and is it a common practice to indicate it in Hebrew dictionaries? Are your suggested methods (meteg, etc.) used elsewhere or is it just a workaround you suggest? (I'm not against it, just asking, a similar approach could potentially be used for Sanskrit, where word stress is unpredictable but normally not used in the Devanagari script). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:39, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

I know kamats is a very common vowel but "o" reading is not that common, is it? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:41, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

It is common practice in Hebrew to indicate non-final stress with a meteg in situations where it is necessary (mostly only in dictionary headwords, siddurim, etc.). The 'ole is less common for this purpose (I've only seen it in linguistic books about Biblical Hebrew). While the "o" reading of kamats is not that common, I think that it is actually more common than "a" when it is followed by a shva, which is why such a situation would be a good indicator. --WikiTiki89 02:18, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

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The "o" reading of kamats does not occur much in Modern Hebrew because those words are written with a vav to indicate the "o". Presumably you're talking about Biblical Hebrew? I also thought the purpose of meteg was to indicate a long vowel, and used in conjunction with kamats it indicates the "a" reading along with a following vocal shva. Benwing (talk) 04:58, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Actually the Academy of the Hebrew Language recommends writing words in which a kamats katan does not interchange with kholam (for example חָכְמָה) without a vav. And also in properly vowelated Modern Hebrew kamats katan is written without a vav. And even when it is written with a vav, the underlying vowel is still a kamats katan. So you can't really say it "does not occur much in Modern Hebrew". Also we treat Biblical and Modern Hebrew as the same language. As I said, there are two ways to indicate stress in Hebrew. The more common one is just using the meteg to indicate stress and the less common one is using the 'ole to indicate stress and the meteg indicate long vowels in order to distinguish the kamatses and shvas. The latter method is nowadays mostly restricted to linguistic or non-Jewish literature about Biblical Hebrew and most Israelis would be unfamiliar with it. --WikiTiki89 05:43, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome!

And thank you for adding more Hebrew!

The regulars can be asses sometimes (see my talk page for examples as well), but they mostly mean well and just become too curt over time. If you can pick up or agree with their conventions, that's great and makes everything smoother. If they're rude or wrong, just ignore them or (if you can find it) add your voice to the conversations about establishing conventions (as above). Still, as long as you're not vandalizing or spreading misinformation, we can always clean up the formatting later and we do really appreciate your help. Hebrew and Arabic are very underserved here.

Another consideration (if you're adding entries and not already doing this) is to include the Hebrew to the translation sections of the English words as well. — LlywelynII 04:04, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Others like שנא

Can you think offhand of any others like שנא that have tsere in the past tense instead of kamats? — Z. [ קהת ] b"A. — 15:00, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

צָמֵא, טָמֵא, מָלֵא --WikiTiki89 15:34, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Those three also have the קָטֵל present tense, unlike שָׂנֵא. --WikiTiki89 15:35, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

All right... I'm trying to figure out if there are enough to warrant a special switch function, or just enough to add overrides... Hm. — Z. [ קהת ] b"A. — 16:17, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Those are all the ל״א קָטֵל verbs listed in Tarmon and Uval's Hebrew Verb Tables (see the first two links at User:Wikitiki89#Shortcuts and links). --WikiTiki89 17:10, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

I guess there's nothing to add. Enosh (talk) 20:29, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

חודשי

{{U:he:qamats-o-excessive-spelling}} does not actually apply to חודשי / חָדְשִׁי because חודש / חֹדֶשׁ is spelled with a cholam. To quote the Academy's example: חומרי (החֹמֶר שלי או שם התואר). Maybe we should have two separate usage notes templates? --WikiTiki89 11:40, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Probably, the template is already a bit big. Enosh (talk) 11:46, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Module Error at מה

A direct result of your edits to {{he-pron}}. Please fix either the entry or the template. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 02:58, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Fixed both. Enosh (talk) 04:42, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

Hebrew declensions

Please make sure you add accurate and complete information to the {{he-decl}} template, otherwise it will generate garbage like נַחָלְךָ. Don't forget to preview the table and make sure the forms are correct before saving. See, for example, my corrections at נחל. --WikiTiki89 17:17, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89 Do you think that while going over Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:tracking/he-noun/param-and-paramwv I should try to add {{he-decl}} for most terms or not. Enosh (talk) 18:36, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Not necessarily. We should try to have them for terms that are actually used with possessive suffixes. --WikiTiki89 18:40, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Your bot

You need to get your bot approved by creating a vote before you can run it. If what you're doing is semi-manual, then just do it under your main account for now. See WT:BOTS for more. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:30, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Okay I'll switch to the main account and stop for today – need to sleep anyway. And yes it's semi-manual, these entries have other stuff it's good to get to. —Enosh (talk) 21:45, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Hebrew root romanization

Hi. I've noticed that you transliterate ה as "_" in ל׳ה roots, so e.g. ג־ל־ה is romanized as "g-l-_" instead of "g-l-h". I am not familiar with this convention and it seems strange to me. Could you perhaps explain it? —Pinnerup (talk) 19:12, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

I haven't been transliterating ה like that (not that I remember at least) but there was someone who did before I started (Wikitiki89 might remember), so I can't really help you with the logic. I can guess maybe to distinguish from הּ or because it isn't pronounced. —Enosh (talk) 07:29, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

The final ה in the root is not an actual "h". Scholars will give the root as ג־ל־י. Personally I think there are a lot of issues with transliterating roots so whenever I add them myself I leave them untransliterated. --WikiTiki89 18:56, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

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Great work on Hebrew

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