Odie5533
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Hi, thanks for the quotation for コラボレーション, it looks great. I took a look through your other contribs too and they are also excellent. Wiktionary needs more Japanese editors as there are basically two active ones right now. If I may make a suggestion regarding quotes, usually they are in four lines, the first being the original, the second in kana, the third in romaji, and the fourth the translation. I prefer using the {{usex}} template. It looks like you know what you're doing but you have any questions about editing Japanese (that's all I do here) please feel free to ask. --Haplology (talk) 06:26, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
Your added text is not quite correct: 者 ("he who ...", Old Chinese *taʔ) never was the "previous form" of 暑 ("heat, summer", Old Chinese *s-tʰaʔ); it was the original form of 煮 ("to cook over a stove", Old Chinese *taʔ, exact homophone of 者). There is no need to explain that the phonetic part 者 had been borrowed for a different use, because that is unrelated to the etymology of 暑. The character 暑 was constructed from 者 with an extra 日 radical only because 暑 and 者 had nearly identical roots (only difference being aspiration), i.e. 者 was borrowed for sound, not for meaning. Hence 暑 is only a simple phono-semantic character, so a template {{Han compound}} suffices. There is no need to explain the etymology of 者; that belongs at 者#Etymology. Wyang (talk) 02:49, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you for explaining what the problem with the text was. I updated it to more closely reflect the source. The source says, "暑 was devised to replace 者 after the latter's transformation of meaning." This means it is important for the etymology to explain why the character was created, i.e. to replace 者. Please let me know if you believe anything in the updated text is incorrect. --Odie5533 (talk) 05:09, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- The reason 暑 was created was because the Old Chinese-speaking people lacked a written form to represent the word *s-tʰaʔ meaning "heat, summer", not because 者 had undergone a transformation in meaning or it was devised to replace 者. To write that word meaning "heat, summer", the Old Chinese-speaking people chose a word with a similar pronunciation which already had a written form, which happened to be 者 (pronounced *taʔ) (which may mean "he who ..." if the semantic change had occurred, or "to cook over a stove" if it hadn't; but the semantic part was unimportant, because 者 was chosen because it sounded similar to the word meaning "heat, summer"). Writing the new word still as 者 will be ambiguous, so a "sun" radical was added to differentiate meanings. That source is incorrect in saying "暑 was devised to replace 者 after the latter's transformation of meaning" because 者 was the original form of 煮 ("to cook over a stove"), not 暑 ("heat, summer"). Other 者-based phono-semantic characters were formed in a more-or-less similar way: 偖诸諸陼堵啫帾猪渚媎绪緒緖琽楮暏赌賭禇睹锗鍺褚蝫赭醏豬踷觰鯺都都斱殾覩著奢署箸乽煑煮翥屠瘏阇闍. Wyang (talk) 05:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Do you have a source which gives this other explanation for the formation of the character? Your explanation makes sense, but it seems also possible that the source's explanation is correct. 者 may have been used to mean both "hot" and to mean "he who ...", and so it is possible that the radical was added to differentiate the two. Thus, for the meaning of "hot", 暑 replaced 者. --Odie5533 (talk) 05:35, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- The reason 暑 was created was because the Old Chinese-speaking people lacked a written form to represent the word *s-tʰaʔ meaning "heat, summer", not because 者 had undergone a transformation in meaning or it was devised to replace 者. To write that word meaning "heat, summer", the Old Chinese-speaking people chose a word with a similar pronunciation which already had a written form, which happened to be 者 (pronounced *taʔ) (which may mean "he who ..." if the semantic change had occurred, or "to cook over a stove" if it hadn't; but the semantic part was unimportant, because 者 was chosen because it sounded similar to the word meaning "heat, summer"). Writing the new word still as 者 will be ambiguous, so a "sun" radical was added to differentiate meanings. That source is incorrect in saying "暑 was devised to replace 者 after the latter's transformation of meaning" because 者 was the original form of 煮 ("to cook over a stove"), not 暑 ("heat, summer"). Other 者-based phono-semantic characters were formed in a more-or-less similar way: 偖诸諸陼堵啫帾猪渚媎绪緒緖琽楮暏赌賭禇睹锗鍺褚蝫赭醏豬踷觰鯺都都斱殾覩著奢署箸乽煑煮翥屠瘏阇闍. Wyang (talk) 05:20, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- For example: [1]. The meaning implied by the shape of 者 was "burning bush", as shown by bronze inscriptions. Oracle bone script had a fire radical under sparkling bush. The connection to 煮 ("to cook on a stove") is far more likely. Wyang (talk) 09:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- I don't dispute that 者 is derived from 煮. The source simply says that afterwards, 暑 replaced 者 for the meaning of "hot". --Odie5533 (talk) 10:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- For example: [1]. The meaning implied by the shape of 者 was "burning bush", as shown by bronze inscriptions. Oracle bone script had a fire radical under sparkling bush. The connection to 煮 ("to cook on a stove") is far more likely. Wyang (talk) 09:52, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's all mixed up now.. 者 was not derived from 煮. 者 did not have the meaning of "hot". 者 was written to represent the word meaning "burning bush" (i.e. cooking on a stove), and was later borrowed to represent the word meaning "he who ...". Both 煮 and 暑 were later derivations, the former to represent the replaced sense of 者 (cooking on a stove), and the latter an unrelated but phonologically similar sense "heat, summer". Wyang (talk) 10:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- You are correct, 煮 appears to have been derived from 者 with the addition of the fire semantic. With regards to 暑, the source does say that the character was created to replace the meaning ("hot") of 者. The sources you've shown appear to discuss other aspects of the formation only, namely that 者 had a similar sound and so a sun semantic was added. You said 者 never meant "hot", but how do you know this? --Odie5533 (talk) 10:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- Not in Hanyu Da Zidian, Hanyu Da Cidian or the bronze inscriptions/seal script dictionaries I have. Wyang (talk) 00:15, 5 February 2013 (UTC)
- You are correct, 煮 appears to have been derived from 者 with the addition of the fire semantic. With regards to 暑, the source does say that the character was created to replace the meaning ("hot") of 者. The sources you've shown appear to discuss other aspects of the formation only, namely that 者 had a similar sound and so a sun semantic was added. You said 者 never meant "hot", but how do you know this? --Odie5533 (talk) 10:55, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
- It's all mixed up now.. 者 was not derived from 煮. 者 did not have the meaning of "hot". 者 was written to represent the word meaning "burning bush" (i.e. cooking on a stove), and was later borrowed to represent the word meaning "he who ...". Both 煮 and 暑 were later derivations, the former to represent the replaced sense of 者 (cooking on a stove), and the latter an unrelated but phonologically similar sense "heat, summer". Wyang (talk) 10:14, 4 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi again. I'm afraid the etymology you added there is not correct. 茶 was a late corruption of 荼 ("bitter taste vegetable, tea"), which is itself phono-semantic (semantic 艸, phono 余 *la); both ultimately from Proto-Sino-Tibetan *sla ("leaf / tea"). (see for example: Axel Schuessler "An Etymological Dictionary of Old Chinese") The information from that website is not accurate. Wyang (talk) 11:31, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
- I see. If you have a source which says as much, please correct it. Also, how did you find my changes so quickly? :) --Odie5533 (talk) 11:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)