User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan

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Thanks for fixing პრინცესა (princ’esa); I apologise for perpetuating and entrenching the preëxisting error. Re принцесса (princessa), are you sure it derives from the German Prinzessin? de:Prinzessin states that, up till the nineteenth century, the usual form was Prinzess / Prinzeß. If принцесса was borrowed before the 19th C., one of those etyma would've been a more likely candidate. Plus, the addition of (-a) is easier to explain that the removal of -in (especially if exists as a feminine suffix in Russian as well as Serbo-Croatian). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:11, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I noticed that the mistake was introduced by Embryomystic's inappropriate use of Borrowing. As for принцесса, it was borrowed during Peter the Great's reign. According to Vasmer the etymon is Prinzessin but I think Prinzess is more likely. Let's be bold and change the etymology. --Vahag (talk) 17:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
Agreed. I've created Prinzess and added принцесса as a descendant, accordingly. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 18:05, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment from an IPEdit

I don't know how to leave a comment here, but I was shocked to see that no one knew the genitive for the German word "das Kino". One does not even need to know German to consult the Duden Dictionary, to see that everything that I posted is a fact, in-line with the currently accepted German grammar rules. I apologize if I did not edit "EXACTLY" the way that is accepted on Wiktionary, but I was just trying to provide information that someone might later put in the appropriate format for this site. The partative IS only expressed though the genitive in German. I have the physical dictionary in front of me. I'm sure that internet links can be found on the internet, but I want to just give you the facts. How can you prove or disprove them if you erase them immediately? This seems very bias. :( —This unsigned comment was added by (talkcontribs).

I explained to you that the German entry is at Kino, not kino. --Vahag (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2013 (UTC)


Are you sure that this Modern Greek word has descendants in those languages - are they not from Ancient or Byzantine/Mediaeval Greek? — Saltmarshαπάντηση 18:18, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

My sources on Ukrainian and Romanian explicitly say "from New Greek". --Vahag (talk) 18:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
Sorry to doubt you !) — Saltmarshαπάντηση 11:17, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
As rightly you should be! Know you not that Vahag's genetic material comes straight from the gargantuan balls of God (որը մեր հիմար մոլորություններից դուրս գոյություն չունի)? — [Ric Laurent] — 16:57, 6 November 2013 (UTC)
 :D --Vahag (talk) 16:55, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

թե, թե՞ որEdit

Hey man. I've been looking at these trying to figure out the difference. It looks like որ can be used as a conjunction or (with -ը/ն) a relative pronoun, but that թե is only used as a conjunction. It kind of looks like they're synonymous as conjunctions, but is there any little coloring of meaning that isn't obvious? — [Ric Laurent] — 15:46, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

You are right, թե is only used as a conjunction. Թե and որ are synonymous, but they are used in different contexts. As a native speaker, I have not paid attention to what governs their use and my head hurts trying to figure out the difference. So I have to copy-paste Dum-Tragut: "թե is particularly often used introducing interrogative sentences with interrogative pronouns but it also serves to introduce reported speech clauses governed by certain verbs." I don't know if this is helpful. --Vahag (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
I hate when that happens, being unable to figure out differences between similar words. Especially in languages like mine that way overuse prepositions. Like. "Meet up"? This isn't going down in heaven. Up makes no damn sense.
The reported speech part makes sense. Like... Եղբայրս ասաց, թե բլաբլաբլա? The first part is a little weird. I can't imagine why one would need an interrogative pronoun in the introduced sentence... like... What? It... Yeah, it hurts my brain also lol :D Still, it's helpful enough, even if I'm not an expert lol.
That reminds me, I was going to tell you I ordered this book by Andranik last week, Առաքելոց վանքին կռիւը. (It took me a minute to figure out because of the weird font on the cover lol.) I wish I had enough to afford Dum-Tragut. I should've gotten it while I had the chance. The pdf just isn't the same. — [Ric Laurent] — 13:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I think Dum-Tragut means cases like this: Ես չգիտեմ, թե ինչու դա արեցի։ (Es čʿgitem, tʿe inčʿu da arecʿi.), Ես տեսա, թե ինչ եղավ։ (Es tesa, tʿe inčʿ ełav.). Interrogative pronouns are bold. Are you going to read Andranik in Armenian? --Vahag (talk) 15:00, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Seeing it like that makes more sense now. In those kinds of sentences, the թե doesn't translate at all, it's just a grammatical thing. Man, I haven't seen something like that in a while.... That actually did make that part a lot clearer, but now I have one more question on the reported speech thing. Hopefully it's the last one I have on this lol. How freely can թե and որ be interchanged? Եւ՛ <ասացին, որ ուզում են> եւ՛ <ասացին, թե ուզում են> կոշեր ե՞ն։
I might try to read it, but the most we can say for sure is that I will own Andranik in Armenian lol. Saw some other stuff on eBay that looked like it could be interesting. One was a book of poetry in Armenian. The other had a sexy cover. I can't remember what it was called offhand, I'll have to look... — [Ric Laurent] — 16:46, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
In that example they are interchangeable. The first sounds more colloquial to me. Andranik's book is in Western Armenian and Traditional Orthography. Good luck :) --Vahag (talk) 19:49, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Aw fuck. I could probably handle TO for the most part, but Western Armenian fucks my brain like a really sexually talented man fucks a cheap unsuspecting prostitute. Anyway, maybe I can get some vocabulary out of it. lol. For an example sentence, is this grammar all g? Ի՞նչ է, որի մասին ուզում ես խոսել։ (What is it that you want to talk about?) — [Ric Laurent] — 21:09, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Nice simile, writer's talent shines through :) Use Ինչի՞ մասին ես ուզում խոսել։ --Vahag (talk) 22:11, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
That's probably what I would have said normally; I just wanted to try to be fancy, test out the grammar lol. Oh! Վահրամ Սահակյանի Հավերժ Կախաղան։ That was the other book I saw on eBay. The one with the սեքսուալ cover. Wikipedia declares it romance novel, which worries me. American romance novels are...something else. I hope this one is violent or something. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Vahram Sahakian is a famous potty mouth and алконавт. Could be good. --Vahag (talk) 22:44, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
I'm so wildly curious.... It'd probably be worth the price. I'm going to have to find out what it's about. — [Ric Laurent] — 23:41, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

Турецкие существительныеEdit

Привет Вааг,

Может быть лучше изменить {{tr-noun}}, чтобы (definite accusative [ [ ] ]) не показывалось и сделать этот параметр не обязательным, если этот шаблон сделан специально для турецкого? Носителям языка будет легче работать с таким шаблоном, чем переделывать {{head}}. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:16, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

Привет, Анатолий. Я поэкспериментировал с {{tr-noun}} и побоялся там что-то изменить, сломаю. В любом случае проблема не в этом конкретном {{tr-noun}}, а в безответственном поведении Lo Ximiendo. До этого она добавляла неправильные hyphenation для русского и армянского. Сейчас несёт всякую антинаучную х*%ню. Этому должен быть положен конец. --Vahag (talk) 11:05, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
Наверное ты прав. Она перестала обращать внимание на просьбы других участников. У нее было много полезного редактирования с арабским, польским, немецким, похоже она смогла разобраться даже с шаблонами склонения и спряжения, хотя Maro отменял все ее правки. Кстати, я не видел неправильного слогоделения для русского. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
Да, жаль терять пользователя. Насчёт русского слогоделения не помню, но она добавляля слогоделение для армянского (точно неправильное), грузинского, амхарского, сирийского, и т.д. Некому проверить правильность последних. --Vahag (talk) 06:46, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Reference template dataEdit

All those abbreviations are killing me. Do you think it would be wise to relocate it into per-language Lua tables? Additional benefits would be 1) ability for smart post-processing for generation of external URLs, reducing the overall number of parameters 2) eliminate abbreviations, e.g. {{R|lang-code|author=X|Year=Y|page=Z}} would suffice (or add additional support for abbreviations and optional reference-specific parameters) 3) uniform layout. WP's citation module subsystem is very complex and we need a fraction of its layout functionality, which could easily be manually replicated. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:42, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I think it would be wise. Another benefit of having tables of references is avoiding duplicate reference templates. I had to delete {{IEW}} today. Eliminating abbreviations altogether is not a good idea; some references are much better known by their abbreviations. Besides, many references do not have authors, e.g. encyclopedias. --Vahag (talk) 21:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


Այս բառը չա՛րն է։ Ինչու՞ հոդ չունի։ :( — [Ric Laurent] — 17:34, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, it used to have article in archaic Eastern Armenian and still has one in contemporary Western Armenian. I don't know why we lost it. Being a non-regular plural must have played a role. --Vahag (talk) 17:42, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Is that the only word like that, with identical indefinite and definite plurals? I can't think of any others. Even the ones with plurals that look irregular to me lol.
Hey, when there's a consonant cluster at the end of the word before a vowel-initial word, like in փառքն անվերջ է :D that's pronounced [ˌpʰɑrkʰən ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ], right?
Speaking of Western Armenian, I finally got that book and tried to read a little of it. I feel like my Eastern Armenian is getting better, but the book.. is essentially a foreign language to me lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 17:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I can think of կանայք (kanaykʿ), պարոնայք (paronaykʿ).
IPA(key): [ˌpʰɑrkʰn‿ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ] sounds more natural to me, sorry :)
Even I haven't studied Western Armenian yet, but I'm planning to. --Vahag (talk) 18:01, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
IPA(key): [ˌpʰɑrkʰn‿ɑnˈvɛɾt͡ʃʰ ɛ] was my second guess lol.... There are a few spots like that in Վստահելի Վերջաղիքը that I'll have to ask you about. Trying to fit the words to the music is still kicking my ass.
Do you think you really have to study it? Probably just a good hard look at it would be enough lol. I imagine it's kind of like how I think of Australian or British English; different but reproducible with care? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:28, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
I understand everything I read in Western Armenian but I can't contribute in it with 100% certainty. I need to study before I can construct conjugation and declension templates. --Vahag (talk) 21:36, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Ahh, tesnum em. I had considered that problem a few years ago, but with my current feelings about wiktionary it's less like a job and more like a...I dunno. Thing. I need. More booze.
Speaking of need... I need to ask you about Armenian ways of expressing need. But that booze thing was serious; I'm like at that spot where I've had too much to be coherent but if I have more I can regain some of my coherence. I don't know how the hell that works. God works in mysterious ways. Speaking of God: Աստծո = [ɑstˈt͡so] (ɑstːˈso) or [ɑstəˈt͡so]? — [Ric Laurent] — 23:19, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
Well, expressing need is easy. X եմ ուզում or ուզում եմ X.
The occurrence of [ə], which is non-phonemic, gives trouble even to native speakers. Colloquially I pronounce [ɑsˈt͡so]. [ɑstəˈt͡so] and [ɑsˈt͡sːo] are probably right as well. --Vahag (talk) 10:14, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha I forgot to come back and be more specific about 'need' after I got sloshed. I usually think of expressing need for nouns and verbs. I forgot we had the entry I need your help, but I don't know how extreme a need would have to be before using կարիք ունեմ lol. But for "I need to verb," are there modal auxiliary verbs that mean like "I must X"? — [Ric Laurent] — 12:48, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Good morning, alky :) "I need to verb" is "ես պետք է verb", e.g. ես պետք է չիշիկ անեմ (es petkʿ ē čʿišik anem, I need to pee, I must pee). --Vahag (talk) 12:55, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
صبح بخیر :) The verb is subjunctive with that, right? I haven't looked a lot at subjunctive verbs. Or actually anything but present, perfect and aorist lol. It's just so...much. T_T — [Ric Laurent] — 13:14, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, it is the subjunctive. I expect an English-speaking brain to blow up when it tries to understand the subjunctive. --Vahag (talk) 13:35, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha not this guy. After Romanian, Lithuanian, Persian... subjunctives are easy. I just have to learn how to make them in Armenian. — [Ric Laurent] — 13:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

մի թե մեկEdit

Եթե խոսում եմ <Մեր մոլորակը (one moon) ունի> ասել, մի լուսին թե՞ մեկ լուսին կլինի։ I feel like it should be mek lusin, but something is giving me doubt lol — [Ric Laurent] — 17:52, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

They are completely interchangeable in that example. If there is any stylistic difference, it is lost on this native speaker. --Vahag (talk) 19:01, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha cool, thanks man. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:48, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
You're welcome, buds. --Vahag (talk) 19:55, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
I should also ask you about the other idea that I originally had for that second example sentence, and your edit to it that gave me another question :D
In Armenian, is "there are" կան or կա? In Persian you'd use the singular for both. (هست hast)
I'll compare Persian for my second question, too. I used "ութ մոլորակնեո" because I saw those words used on the Armenian wikipedia article for solar system. But I think in that case it was used as the subject of the sentence. So in Persian, whenever you have a counting word before the noun, like هشت‌تا سیاره (hašt-tâ sayâre) you don't use a plural marker. How is it in Armenian? Is the plural marker only dropped when the counted word is an object instead of subject, or is there more subtlety I'm missing? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:10, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
"There are" is կան, "there is" is կա. Yes, the plural marker is dropped only when the counted word is an object instead of subject. That being sad, many "educated" Armenians under the influence of Russian and English do not drop the plural, e.g. Սեղանին կան չորս գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan čʿors grkʿer.), instead of Սեղանին կա չորս գիրք։ (Sełanin ka čʿors girkʿ., There are four books on the table). People with no knowledge of foreign languages speak more naturally and correctly. --Vahag (talk) 21:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
If you took չորս out, would it be Սեղանին կան գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan grkʿer.)? It also makes me think of another variation. If you wanted to say Իմ եղբայրները <wives> ունեն (Im ełbayrnerə <wives> unen) would wives be rendered կանանց to agree, or կնոջ? I know some languages think using singular makes it clear enough. I think Persian is like that. If you have the plural marker there it would imply definiteness. It would sound more like "they have the wives" instead of "they have wives." — [Ric Laurent] — 20:27, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Yes, if you take չորս out, it would be Սեղանին կան գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan grkʿer.). This will confuse you even more, but I have to tell you: some authorities claim that if there is an adjective between the number and the noun, plural should be used, e.g. Սեղանին կա չորս գիրք։ (Sełanin ka čʿors girkʿ.) but Սեղանին կան չորս հետաքրքիր գրքեր։ (Sełanin kan čʿors hetakʿrkʿir grkʿer.). Others dispute this.
Իմ եղբայրները կանայք ունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ unen.), ունենալ (unenal, to have) requires nominative. --Vahag (talk) 20:43, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Lol getting cases right in Armenian is harder than Lithuanian.... Which actually gives me another question. In Lithuanian most direct objects use accusative, but if the sentence is negative you use genitive instead. Does Armenian do anything like that, or would our married brothers' sentence just change to Իմ եղբայրները կանայք չունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ čʿunen.)? — [Ric Laurent] — 21:34, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Իմ եղբայրները կանայք չունեն։ (Im ełbayrnerə kanaykʿ čʿunen.) is right. We don't change stuff because of negative like some puny Lithuanian. --Vahag (talk) 21:38, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha thank God.... I'm gonna control myself for now, but I'll probably have more questions for you before too long lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:04, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Bring it on, I don't mind. --Vahag (talk) 22:05, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
All right, I've got a little one for an example sentence lol. Ես ուզում եմ հարբել, բայց <բուխլո> չունեմ։ Two things: "բուխլո" lol; and is there a word that translates as "any" where the English sentence would be "I haven't got any...", or can the negative stand by itself? — [Ric Laurent] — 22:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Ես ուզում եմ հարբել, բայց ընդհանրապես խմիչք չունեմ։ I don't know a slang equivalent of бухло, I'm a nice boy :) --Vahag (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
ընդհանրապես (əndhanrapes) is such a long word lol... It's in a song I know, but I can't remember the rest of the context. We don't have any pages that link to it but a frequency list. — [Ric Laurent] — 23:12, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
It's long, that's why colloquially we always use Russian вообще (voobšče). --Vahag (talk) 08:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
վափշե gets a pretty good amount of Google hits, should it be mentioned on ընդհանրապես (əndhanrapes) with the IPA for noobz? Thanks for making the entry, by the way, the example sentences are great. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 13:45, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I added several informal spellings. It is disputable whether they pass CFI, they are only used informally on the Internet and never in durably-archived writing. --Vahag (talk) 16:22, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
As an anti-elitist, I'm happy with the fact that they're mentioned, even if we don't have entries for them lol — [Ric Laurent] — 16:44, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I decided to also become anti-elitist after some personal, first-hand experiences. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 20:23, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Anti-elitism is good, but purging the language from Russian parasite words is good. At least from the very basic vocabulary. We should expel զատո (zato) < зато (zato), դաժը (dažə) < даже (daže), տոյիսծ (toyisc) < то есть (to jestʹ), վոփշմ (vopʿšm) < в общем (v obščem), պռոստո (pṙosto) < просто (prosto), ծիլիվիզըռ (cilivizəṙ) < телевизор (televizor)... --Vahag (talk) 20:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
(I have to unindent because my brain can't read narrow columns for some reason)
Armenian needs a word for "both" lol. You should write a book teaching Armenians to speak Armenian instead of Russoarmenian :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:09, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
The trend is unfortunately in the other direction with us being drawn into the evil Eurasian Union. By the way, I was watching the Colbert Report the other day and saw a guy named Alexis Ohanian, who is the founder of Reddit. Didn't know we invented Reddit. --Vahag (talk) 19:39, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
American youth ruin Reddit with their nonsense. I know there are some fabled parts of it that are cool, but the multitude of knownothings makes those parts like fountains of youth or something. Our education system creates utter retards. Thank God there are some who can make it through unscathed, think for themselves, and innovate like that, though. On the news today is drones as delivery systems for online shopping. Capitalism is fucking wonderful. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I've also heard that there are people who are unplugging from both cable TV AND Internet service as well. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:59, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Some new dictionaries onlineEdit

Hi Vahagn, hope you are doing well and that you'll enjoy these two jewels. More to come soon... Հայերէն Գաւառական Բառարան and Բառարան Գանձարան Հայերէն Լեզուի. Best, Սէրուժ (talk) 10:27, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

It's great to finally have these in high-quality scan and easily searchable. I will refer to Գաւառական more often now. It was a pain in the ass looking for a word in Flib's inferior pdf version. I have linked our templates to Nayiri, Template:R:hy:Gayayean and Template:R:hy:Ačaṙean:1913.
On an unrelated note: as a frequent user of Nayiri the most important feature that's missing for me is the ability to know whether a certain headword exists in a certain dictionary. Right now I have to open each dictionary separately and check. --Vahag (talk) 10:59, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Hi Vahagn, yes the list of headwords for each dictionary and whether a certain headword exists in a given dictionary are important features. We will have that in the future. Just released Արեւմտահայերենի բառարան (1991, Երեւան). Not sure how useful it will be for you, but it's an interesting one. Hope you're keeping warm out there :) Սէրուժ (talk) 08:25, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
I have Artem Sargsyan in print, but thanks for adding it. I have noticed I haven't opened once my print HAB, Malxaseancʿ, ŽHLBB, Ałayan since they appeared on Nayiri. Sargsyan's dictionary has influenced me in my decision to treat Eastern Armenian and Western Armenian under a single header in Wiktionary. Since it is a dictionary of all differences of Western Armenian from Eastern Armenian and has only 4000 entries compared to the ~150000 word stock of modern Armenian, it makes sense not to duplicate content for the rest of 146000 words.
I wish there was a dictionary of differences of Eastern Armenian from Western Armenian. Often I add a word to Wiktionary, like գազար (gazar), and do not know whether to tag it with an (Eastern Armenian) context label, because I cannot know whether you use it too.--Vahag (talk) 21:19, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Why don't you check Հայոց Լեզուի Նոր Բառարան printed in Beirut? It's definitely the most modern Western Armenian dictionary, and probably one of the best printed. Սէրուժ (talk) 08:52, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Also, I'm glad to hear someone actually using Nayiri so often that they don't need to use their print version of the same books. My goal was two-fold: (1) make dictionaries fast and efficient to use, and (2) make the dictionaries accessible to those who don't have it, or those who don't want to carry all of those books everywhere they go, even if they do have it. So thanks for sharing your anecdotal usage. Սէրուժ (talk) 08:58, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, I agree with you on EA and WA. In my experience I find people who are less educated or have read less to think that there is a large difference between WA and EA. The less they know, the more they think the two are different. And the converse is also true. Indeed, it is not so much WA vs EA, but 31+ dialects that we've had. But standard EA and WA are almost the same language with rather minor grammatical and word usage (vocabulary differences). The sound shifts are also interesting, and both have experienced them since antiquity, but WA sound shifts have become more pronounced over the last 300+ years as a result of greater interaction with Western European languages. Սէրուժ (talk) 09:02, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I do use HLNB, but a missing word is not yet a guarantee of it being an Eastern-Armenianism. The dictionary could simply be incomplete. The best way to go is searching for a word in a Western Armenian corpus, which does not yet exist. --Vahag (talk) 14:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
FYI -- Just released: Հայերէն Աշխարհաբար Լեզուի Լիակատար Բառարան, 1954-57, Հալէպ։ It's comprehensive in that it claims to contain the full vocabulary of both Eastern and Western Armenian. This is my last resort dictionary when I cannot find the word I'm looking for even in Մալխասեանց. Սէրուժ (talk) 10:01, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Very interesting dictionary, thank you. Western Armenian dictionaries printed in diaspora are generally unavailable in Armenia (except Kuyumjian). Nayiri is our only access to them. --Vahag (talk) 13:39, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

I've got a good oneEdit

(I was going to try to say that in Armenian, but I couldn't figure out how to parse "a good one." Mek lav...Lav mek...Mi lav mek... Armenian has too many words for "one" lol) Anyway, I can never remember when nominatives are really accusatives and datives are really genitives, so I'll just ask you without trying to translate: "The guy whose sister you kissed when you were drunk is here and he doesn't look like he wants to play cards." — [Ric Laurent] — 19:39, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

"I've got a good one" is an untranslatable English folklore :) "Տղեն, ում քրոջը պաչեցիր խմած ժամանակ, ստեղ ա ու պատրաստվում ա ոտդ ոռիցդ պոկի։" I couldn't think of an exact idiomatic translation for the playing cards part. The one I gave you literally says "intents to rip off your leg from your ass". --Vahag (talk) 19:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Haha I guess Armenians don't much use that sort of indirect but evident phrasing? I'll probably do that a lot anyway, because it's fun... lol — [Ric Laurent] — 20:08, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Translating idioms is the hardest part for me because I am not familiar with the rich phraseology of my language. It is shameful. --Vahag (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I think part of what adds to it is that sometimes English uses stuff that looks idiomatic but it's really just kind of unclear. Like, I think the playing card things might be a relatively common way of saying what I did, but only because card playing is so common. I could just as easily have said "and he doesn't look like he wants to shake your hand" or "and he doesn't look like he wants to invite you over to meet the family." Maybe linguists have a name for the kind of sentence I did, but knowing what that name is would do us no good lol. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Oh, the end of the sentence reminds me. Կարող լինել, is the supporting verb subjunctive, infinitive, either/or depending on circumstance? — [Ric Laurent] — 20:12, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Normatively it supports the infinite: կարող ես ուտել (karoł es utel, you can eat). Colloquially it supports the subjunctive: կարող ես ուտես (karoł es utes, you can eat). This is very common and used even by educated speakers who do not know it's sub-standard. --Vahag (talk) 20:26, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
Armenian is surprisingly challenging lol... Most languages I know that have a subjunctive use it for that. I was just crying to my friend about wanting Jasmine Dum-Tragut's grammar but not wanting to spend so much money on it. Studying awesome languages is expensive. But I do really need to get that. If I read it I could waste a lot less of your time and ask you more important stuff :D — [Ric Laurent] — 20:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I've read 66 pages of Dum-Tragut now and it is full of errors. Be careful! There is another Western grammar, Kozintseva, Modern Eastern Armenian. It is available on pirate websites and looks more professional. --Vahag (talk) 20:34, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
I actually already have a PDF of Dum-Tragut, but I'm a purist about books lol. I like being able to flip through, put in bookmarks, highlight shit. I know you can do a lot of that stuff with PDFs now, but it's still hollow. Hard to follow. But I did add Kozintseva to my list of stuff to acquire. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/avEdit

This redlinked cat has a good two dozen entries in it that might need looking over. Thought I'd inform you, since I don't know who else would have Avar resources. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

It's empty now. Different editors use different transliteration schemes. --Vahag (talk) 19:50, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Thankeesah! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:53, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Sure. The only thing left is to clean up gargantuan Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/hy and Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/ka caused by a shift in transliteration scheme. A bot should simply remove all transliterations for hy and ka.--Vahag (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Все части речи для весьEdit

Привет, Вааг, приглашаю тебя поучаствовать в обсуждении Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup#весь. Если есть мнения или дополнительная информация, пожалуйста сообщи. CC: Стив Смит. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:04, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


You seem to have inadvertently messed up the entry. I restored it to the last good point AFAICT. I tried not to remove anything good that you added (I left the hu translation), but you might want to check. DCDuring TALK 20:55, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Conrad's tool is misbehaving. --Vahag (talk) 07:10, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to take that out of context and giggle incessantly, like a Japanese schoolgirl. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:58, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I knew you'd interpret it that way, pervert :) --Vahag (talk) 16:00, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm so predictable you could write my responses yourself :D — [Ric Laurent] — 14:08, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Searching for template-generated contentEdit

[1] - I tried it and it doesn't work. What do I have to enable for it to work? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:26, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Go to "Beta Features" in your Preferences and enable "New search". --Vahag (talk) 14:31, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
It works! Thanks. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:44, 1 January 2014 (UTC)
It can even find content created few seconds ago. --Vahag (talk) 15:01, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

fun is evilEdit

You know the rules, Vahagn: no fun allowed ever. --Æ&Œ (talk) 06:07, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

No, Pilcrow. It's not allowed to you. I have an official license to have fun. I'm like the 007 of trickstery. --Vahag (talk) 16:10, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Bah, you only got it because you are Armenian. If you were a straight white man, they would permablock you. Damn liberal elites are ruining Geektionary. --Æ&Œ (talk) 20:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Liberal elites ruin everything. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
Guys, stop watching Fox News. --Vahag (talk) 22:57, 2 January 2014 (UTC)
But if I watch msnbc they'll just call me a racist misogynist homophobe bigot all day and I just can't deal with that. :'( Besides I have a crush on like half the hosts at Fox. — [Ric Laurent] — 03:10, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
Mmm-hmmmm. Stossel's porn mustache is sexy. --Vahag (talk) 13:22, 3 January 2014 (UTC)
That thing probably controls him. I've actually got one of his books lol.
I think my favorite is that adorable libertarian munchkin Greg Gutfeld. Humor is arousing. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


I've hijacked the context label "post-Classical" and made it available to Ancient Greek as well as Old Armenian......and those other languages too. I'm pretty sure it should now treat Old Armenian uses identically to how it did before. I apologize if this causes you any problems. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:16, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

I originally had it as language agnostic too, but then I changed my mind. I don't remember why. The change is fine by me. --Vahag (talk) 22:22, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Some random questionsEdit

Hi Vahag, does Armenian differentiate between a normal g and a palatalized one ([gʲ])? I'm just curious to know where does the յ (y) in դարգյահ (dargyah) come from, درگاه is pronounced [dæɾgɒːh], and it has another form (درگه) pronounced [dæɾgʲæh], so maybe դարգյահ (dargyah) form is from the latter. BTW, is the second a in sparapet an inner Armenian development? Also, is d > r a regular sound change here (I guess I've seen d > r change in several other loanwords in Armenian)? Just want to make sure if this (saying that սպարապետ is from spādpat) is ok. --Z 07:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Z. Thanks for the interesting questions. Old Armenian and the dialects of Ararat Plain and Constantinople on which two varieties of modern literary Armenian are based do not have palatalized consonants, but the dialects of Karabakh, Agulis, Van, Kharberd and Maragha do have them. [dæɾgʲæh] fits perfectly for դարգյահ (dargyah). Other cases with a -յ- (-y-) in Persian-borrowed terms are գյազար (gyazar) vs گزر (gazar), քյալամ (kʿyalam) vs کلم (kalam), դազգյահ (dazgyah) vs some by-form of دستگاه (dastgâh). I assume in all cases -յ- (-y-) reflects Persian palatalization.
Jahukyan reconstructs Iranian *spāδ(a)pet for սպարապետ (sparapet), which means it is possible the second -a- is an inner-Armenian development (I think smart people call this “analogical leveling”) — սպար (spar) is “Armenian”, պետ (pet) is “Armenian” and Armenian words should be connected with the interfix -ա- (-a-). d > r is not regular but δ > r is. As far as I know, Parthian contrasted plosive b, d, g with fricative β, δ, γ. I don't know if there is difference in orthography, but in transcription the difference should be indicated. Note how Boyce 1977, page 22, transcribes Parthian ʿspʾd as [ispāδ]. Périkhanian quotes attested Inscriptional Parthian spʾdpty, which should be transcribed with a -δ- to accommodate Armenian. Or even better, it should not be transcribed without a serious modern source. Even Périkhanian does not venture reconstruction, she simply says “cf. Parthian spʾdpty”. She doesn't even claim սպարապետ (sparapet) is from that specific attested spelling.
The determination of which Iranian language and in which period yielded a given Armenian word is a very difficult and ongoing task. There are different periods of Parthian, early and late Middle Persian, Old Median, Périkhanian's "Middle Median", some Old Persian and even some Eastern Iranian elements of unknown origin, perhaps Scythian or "Parnian". I suggest we tread very carefully and like Jahukyan get away with general statements such as "an Iranian borrowing, compare Parthian this, Middle Persian that..." unless we have some modern source claiming an exact origin. --Vahag (talk) 19:54, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your explanation, the -յ- (-y-) case was interesting. You are quite right that we should not transcribe that word (yes post-vocalic OIr. /d/ yields Parth. /δ/, there are evidences that /d/ and /δ/ merged into one sound [/d/ or /δ/] later; also those voiceless stops became voiced, these changes happened separately, so it's quite hard to transcribe such Parth. word exactly). --Z 09:17, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

locusta etymologyEdit

That's really excellent work; thank you very much for it. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:19, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. I have good sources. --Vahag (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2014 (UTC)


Կարող եք մասնակցել այս քվեարկությանը: --Vadgt (talk) 19:07, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Module talk:columnsEdit

Do you have any input here, since you're the one that requested the feature? DTLHS (talk) 19:35, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


Thanks for the helpful feedback in your edit summary on Բարաք. I still think that it shouldn't be listed as being "from English", even if the direct source is an individual from an English-speaking country, simply because it's not an English name. Imagine if the next US President was named Gagik, and that this caused a spike in the name's popularity in, I don't know, Japan. Should the Japanese spelling be categorised in "Japanese given names from English"? I would think "from Armenian" would be more appropriate. -- Perey (talk) 12:25, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

I have removed "from English" but did not replace it with "from Hebrew" because I'm not sure the name is ultimately from Hebrew and not Arabic. The etymology still says "from English", because we certainly learned about the name and transliterated it into Armenian from English, not its Semitic source. PS I like the idea of president Gagik. Kim Kardashian could then be his vice-president. --Vahag (talk) 15:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Regarding shahanshah, شاهنشاه and شاهان‌شاهEdit

  1. My name is not Kenneth, as in the history of شاهان‌شاه.
  2. What makes you determine that shahanshah is from شاهنشاه instead of شاهان‌شاه?
  3. If شاهنشاه is a short form of شاهان‌شاه, why isn't the information put on شاهان‌شاه instead?

--kc_kennylau (talk) 11:54, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

  1. I don't like short names. You're Kenneth from now on.
  2. OED says from šāhanšāh, not šāhānšāh.
  3. The information is put at the most common spelling created first, which is شاهنشاه. --Vahag (talk) 12:03, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  1. I am never Kenneth.
  2. I cannot find the respective entry from OED.
  3. How do you know which is more common?
--kc_kennylau (talk) 12:07, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
  1. Kenneth, Kenneth, Kenneth.
  2. OED is Oxford English Dictionary.
  3. I compare 463,000 Google hits to 6,490 hits. Search with quote marks. --Vahag (talk) 12:17, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Nishanyan TemplateEdit

There is a discussion on your Nishanyan Template at Wikipedia. May you can explain your decision for making this template to use it as a reliable source. --2A02:908:E621:8BE0:F8A4:4828:6C73:A598 22:25, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Этимология прилагательного ցամաքEdit

Привет, Вааг! Я заметил, что в статье о ցամաք есть ссылки, которые говорят о заимствовании из сирийского языка. Сегодня я встретил это прилагательное (хоть и в необычной транслитерации) в словаре Уленбека (1898), где оно связывается (точное выражение: «Man vergleicht [...]») с санскритским словом क्षाम (kṣāmá), сожжённый. Среди источников есть такой, который упоминает возможное индоевропейское происхождение (родство с क्षाम ), хоть и с предостережением, но как возможный вариант? (К сожалению я не могу читать на армянском.) The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 13:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Привет, Богорм! Когда писал этимологию ցամաք (cʿamakʿ), источником имел только Ачаряна. Я сейчас дополнил и расширил этимологию на основании новых работ. Сравненние с санскритским क्षाम (kṣāmá, versengt, ausgedörrt) идёт с Bugge 1889 и принято в Pokorny 1959 и J̌ahukyan 1987, 2010. Hübschmann 1897 считает сравнение "unsicher", а Мартиросян вовсе не принимает и предпочитает родство с क्षम् (kṣám-, земля). --Vahag (talk) 18:03, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Спасибо. Еще один вопрос в связи с другой этимологией. В том же словаре в этимологии санскр. चन्द् (cand-) указано армянское слово с транслитерацией šand и значением Blitz (молния). Я нашел շանթ с тем же значением, но у него -թ . Есть армянское или древнеармянское слово *շանդ или это опечатка и շանթ искомое слово? Самое интересное, что в словаре дано еще два значения армянского родственного слова: искра (Funke) и накаленное железо (glühender Eisen), поэтому я предположил, что есть другое слово (кроме շանթ). The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 19:40, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
շանթ (šantʿ) искомое слово. У него есть вариант շանդ (šand). На днях напишу этимологию—у Мартиросяна есть большое обсуждение на эту тему. --Vahag (talk) 16:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Было сложно, но я это сделал. Смотри обзор этимологий в շանթ (šantʿ). В твоем словаре отражена гипотеза Бугге. Ссылке в списке литературы. --Vahag (talk) 20:31, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Thank you!Edit

Thanks so much for your edits! I know it's a lot of work, so thank you for putting up with me. :) Arax (talk) 06:01, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

No, thank you. You're doing the part I hate the most—translating from Armenian into English. Adding pronunciation, inflection and etymology is fun. Keep up the good work. By the way, are you translating Ananyan now? --Vahag (talk) 07:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Glad to hear we're each doing the part we like best! :) Who's Ananyan? I translate mostly (or only) literature. Arax (talk) 05:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Vakhtang Ananyan, the writer. I usually find the words you add in his work when I search the Eastern Armenian corpus. I'm asking, because if you're translating a literary work you could add quotations from it. See for example շահնշահ, մուճակ, պաղպաղակ. Quotations are very useful. --Vahag (talk) 15:05, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Ah, I see. I don't usually get the words from the works I'm translating; I get them from works I'm reading. :) I could add quotations if it helps the meaning of the word. I've added "collocations" where relevant. Arax (talk) 09:47, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Repeating contentEdit

Hi Vahagn,

I realised you deleted my etymology on абажур. I understand that most of this information is contained elsewhere on wiktionary, but the information compiled in that etymology was taken from at least 5 different sources (including the information on cognates which didn't exist anywhere else). It took me some time to find it all. Anyway I have deleted the information about proto languages (I suggest that the Latin etymology is adjusted to include this information) but restored the link to the Russian article журнал and cognates.

Thanks,--Itsacatfish (talk) 19:55, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Czech abažúr and Polish abażur are not cognates of Russian абажур (abažur) as we understand "cognates" on Wiktionary. Cognates are inherited from the same proto-language, e.g. Russian брат (brat) and Czech bratr. Abažúr and abażur are no more relevant to the Russian page than Georgian აბაჟური (abažuri). I am going to move them to the list of descendants of French abat-jour.
I am also going to remove your links to beatan and журнал (žurnal). This is not Russian Wiktionary. The etymology of the French word should be treated on the French page, not its Russian descendant. Журнал (Žurnal) can be listed as a Related term.
If you have etymological information that is not anywhere on Wiktionary, you need to find place it at the correct page. --Vahag (talk) 20:17, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for clearing all that up! That was a very helpful comment actually, even if you seem rather annoyed with me :) --Itsacatfish (talk) 20:31, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
I am not annoyed. It's just I've sworn to fight duplication till my last breath.
Your contributions are of high quality but there are some formatting errors. Keep an eye on your watchlist while I fix some of them. --Vahag (talk) 20:35, 29 March 2014 (UTC)


Hi Vahagn, since it seems you know how to/have permission to move articles, please could you move my article oбаим to обаим (my entry is written with an English "o"!) Thanks, --Itsacatfish (talk) 17:33, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I just did. You can probably do it too. To the left of the search box there is a downward facing triangle. The "Move" command is there. --Vahag (talk) 17:40, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion on PIE *teleEdit

User_talk:Hirabutor#Appendix:Proto-Indo-European.2Ftele - Hirabutor (talk) 21:52, 9 April 2014 (UTC)


I split the two meanings because they are rather distinct, and it's not really clear how they could be unified under one root. Other sources I found (Philippa 2009, De Vaan 2008) said similar things. —CodeCat 18:32, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the splitting. Pokorny splits the meanings too, but lists sūtīt (to send) and sių̃sti (to send) under the meaning “to go”, which makes sense. --Vahag (talk) 18:43, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Last modified on 17 April 2014, at 21:53