Last modified on 9 January 2015, at 19:09

Wiktionary:Grease pit

Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives +/-

November 2014

American Sign Language Letter Images Showing at Full SizeEdit

As an IP noted at Talk:C, the "100px" parameter in Image wikilinks wrapped in {{head|head=}} seems to be ignored, so the image of the finger-spelled "C" fills the page. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:13, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Fixed; the section-linking code was parsing the link wrongly and corrupting the size specifier. I fixed the parsing code; though we should probably suppress section linking altogether for File-namespace links (and probably some others). Keφr 20:08, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

Cyrillic UyghurEdit

Can someone please suppress Cyrillic in Module:ug-translit? Or write another function for it? See Khorgas. قورعاس (qorğas) and Қорғас (Qorghаs). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:08, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I changed the transliteration module so that it returns nothing if the script is not Arabic. It needs an extra function for Cyrillic still, but someone else will need to do that. —CodeCat 00:29, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. If someone adds a framework for it (the logic), I can fill the table with transliteration symbols. w:Uyghur_Cyrillic_alphabet. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:38, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Is the transliteration just by each letter individually? As in, there are no pairs of letters (or similar) that must be transliterated separately? —CodeCat 00:48, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
I've set it up now. —CodeCat 00:52, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. They are very straightforward, one-to-one and there are most likely no rules to change transliterations depending on the position of letters, like Russian "е" (e, je, etc.). I'll have a go at it later, if no-one does, just need to map Uyghur Arabic transliterations (which is fully fully phonetic and doesn't use any diacritics unlike Arabic) to Cyrillic, so we have some consistency, e.g. "چ" = "ch" = "ч". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:58, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
@CodeCat:. I've added the Cyrillic letters, not sure why there is no Arabic equivalent of Ә. I've asked User:Hahahaha哈, a Uyghur speaker (not sure if they know the mapping between Cyrillic and Arabic). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:46, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Calling @ZxxZxxZ: as well, please check if you can. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:49, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Ә = ه —Stephen (Talk) 03:39, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Stephen, I have added ه. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:57, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Fixed a mismatch. Cyrillic "е" is apparently Roman "ë" (="ې"), e.g. يېزىق (yëziq) and йезиқ (yëziq) "script", "alphabet" (from Russian "язык"?) and Cyrillic "ə" is Roman "e" (="ه"), can't find an example word with "ه". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Found a Cyrillic letter, which was missing in Wikipedia. Added "э" as "é". I'm not sure what it should be. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:22, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply. I can't read Cyrillic script. I checked the Arabic part, and found this ["ع"] = "ğ", They don't have this letter in Uyghur Arabic form, the letter "ğ" is the letter "gh" in ULY. The letter "é" is no longer in use, it is "ë" now. --Hahahaha哈 (talk) 04:57, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Searching for green ACCEL linksEdit

Is there any way to search for, or generate a list of, entries with green ACCEL links in them? --Type56op9 (talk) 15:03, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Scan Wiktionary for redlinks wrapped in spans with appropriate CSS classes (plural-of or whatever). Using a dump may make it easier. Keφr 17:57, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I have no idea how to use dumps. Perhaps a help page Help:Taking a Wiktionary dump and being creative with it is needed. --Type56op9 (talk) 09:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
"pagelinks" is a (compressed) text file containing a series of SQL statements which can be imported verbatim into a MySQL database (and maybe others, after some modifications). Then you can use the "all-titles" dump to remove all bluelinks (and links to non-content namespaces) from your database. Then you do SELECT UNIQUE pl_from FROM pagelinks;, giving you a list of pageids of pages containing redlinks. If you expand templates in each (with e.g. mw:API:Revisions) and look for <span class="form-of, it means you got something which WT:ACCEL can turn into a greenlink. Probably.
Hmm. Quite a lot of work, it seems. If I were to do it, I would probably (ab)use my Admin Powers™ by editing Module:headword to add a tracking template for each accelerated link, and then just pull the list from mw:API:EmbeddedinKeφr 20:35, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
But then you'd have to wait a long time for the changes to show up. A dump is a much better solution. --WikiTiki89 22:06, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
With 3M jobs in the queue right now, you might have a point. Keφr 15:31, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Ref no references warning bannerEdit

It has a mistakes in it, it says to used <references> which is incorrect, it's <references/>. I suppose it's somewhere in the MediaWiki namespace. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:35, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

MediaWiki:Abusefilter-warning-ref-no-references. I have edited it like you suggested; although I do not consider this an error myself, I agree it might be misleading for newbies (which are the primary target of this message in the first place). Keφr 17:54, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I get this message all the time, and I'm not a newbie. I get it because I add <ref> tags in one section (usually the Etymology section), save that section, and then go to the bottom of the language to add a new ===References=== section with the <references/> tag in it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:51, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, okay. But you know what to do already: this message merely reminds you to do it, so its actual content is of lesser importance to you. Keφr 19:08, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I think it's hard to remember where the forward slash goes, I'm always happy to be reminded, better than than get it wrong! Renard Migrant (talk) 00:06, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
@Renard Migrant: To explain the slash placement: "<references>" is an opening tag, "</references>" is a closing tag. Every opening tag must have a corresponding closing tag. However, when no text needs to be placed between the opening and closing tags, it is redundant to write the tag twice. Thus, "<references/>" is a shorthand for "<references></references>". --WikiTiki89 05:22, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Removing diacritics for all regional versions of Arabic, not just Standard ArabicEdit

A number of regional Arabic dialects (aka languages) have entries for words in those languages. E.g. there are quite a number of words in Category:Egyptian Arabic nouns and Category:Libyan Arabic nouns, and they're written in Arabic script. Personally I think the lemmas should be written in transcription since the Arabic script can never be phonologically very accurate for the dialects, and indeed most pedagogical literature uses transcription more or less exclusively. But since we have stuff written in Arabic, we should at least provide diacritic-removal services like we do for Standard Arabic. As it is, you can't e.g. put diacritics in an Egyptian Arabic link without manually specifying the non-diacritic version as another param. I'm proposing that the automatic diacritic removal we do for Standard Arabic should be done for all the Arabic varieties. The full list is here:


This would simply involve copying the entry_name = entry in the language table for code ar to all the codes given in the list above, possibly with a check that "Arab" is actually one of the allowed scripts. Could someone do this? Thanks.

Benwing (talk) 07:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

The change is straightforward but a few data modules needs to change. I have just updated Module:languages/data3/a, which happens to have a bunch of Arabic dialects, including Egyptian, Moroccan, for which we have a lot of entries - diff and diff. I only changed those with sc=Arab but this may need to change. I also changed User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js for translations - diff. Pls check if there are other data modules, like Module:languages/data3/a with Arabic dialects. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:29, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
There is also Shihhi Arabic (ssh) and Chadian Arabic (shu) in Module:languages/data3/s, and Hassaniyya (mey) in Module:languages/data3/m, all with sc=Arab. Juba Arabic in Module:languages/data3/p (a pidgin or creole) has sc=Arab but I think this is a mistake and should be changed to Latin -- Ethnologue says script is Latin, and the one entry we have in the dictionary is in Latin script.
According to Ethnologue:
  • Tajiki Arabic (abh), Baharna Arabic (abv), Saidi Arabic (aec), Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic (avl) are listed in Ethnologue as using Arabic script but we have them as sc=None, which should be changed to sc=Arab and the diacritic-removal stuff put in.
  • Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic (acq), Hijazi Arabic (acw), Najdi Arabic (ars), Sanaani Arabic (ayn) have no writing system listed in Ethnologue and we have sc=None but all are vigorously-spoken languages that serve as regional or national standards, so I suspect they do use Arabic script and I think we should change them to sc=Arab and put in the diacritic-removal stuff.
  • Hadrami Arabic (ayh) has no writing system listed in Ethnologue and we have sc=None. It is vigorously-spoken by a smaller community (300,000 people) than the other two dialects in Yemen. Based on the example of things like Tajiki Arabic and Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic I'd tentatively set it to sc=Arab and put in the diacritic-removal stuff.
  • Uzbeki Arabic (auz) has no writing system listed in Ethnologue and is given as moribund, so I think it should remain as sc=None.
  • For Cypriot Arabic (acy) we have sc=None and Ethnologue has "Arabic script [Arab], no longer in use. Greek script [Grek], no longer in use. Latin script [Latn], revitalization efforts in one town". I would set sc=Latn here.
Benwing (talk) 15:33, 15 November 2014 (UTC)
@Benwing: You can follow the changes I made to other dialects and update the appropriate scripts and handling of diacritics for them. The translation adding tool should also follow. If you don't have access to the modules, pls make a list of required changes. Provided there are no objections, I'll make the changes. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:22, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I can't change the modules myself.

  • Please include diacritic-removal stuff for Shihhi Arabic (ssh) and Chadian Arabic (shu) in Module:languages/data3/s, and Hassaniyya (mey) in Module:languages/data3/m.
  • Please change Juba Arabic in Module:languages/data3/p to have sc=Latn.
  • For Tajiki Arabic (abh), Baharna Arabic (abv), Saidi Arabic (aec), Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic (avl), Ta'izzi-Adeni Arabic (acq), Hijazi Arabic (acw), Najdi Arabic (ars), Sanaani Arabic (ayn), Hadrami Arabic (ayh) please change to have sc=Arab and add the diacritic-removal stuff in. (This is all the remaining Arabic dialects in Module:languages/data3/a other than Uzbeki Arabic and Cypriot Arabic.)
  • For Cypriot Arabic (acy) please change to have sc=Latn.


Benwing (talk) 23:54, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, if no-one else does, I'll do it in the near future (there's no urgency as there are not much content in these languages/dialects). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:43, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Orangelinks gadget not working for meEdit

At spur#Etymology {{m|ang|spora}} (spora) and {{term|spora|lang=ang}} (spora) showed blue, not orange, though there is no Old English section at [[spora]]. Here they look tan in color, which must be the current 'visited-link' color. DCDuring TALK 15:54, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

I see orange links above. —CodeCat 15:56, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
@CodeCat: So you must not have visited [[spora]]. What about spora at spur#Etymology? DCDuring TALK 16:10, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't see an orange link there, no. —CodeCat 16:12, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I think this is caused by a JavaScript error at [[spur]]. I don't know enough to investigate it. --WikiTiki89 16:15, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
OK. The page seems to have mostly garden-variety templates and other formatting, so it might recur elsewhere. DCDuring TALK 16:27, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Ugh. I broke it. I have restored it to a working version. Ironically, I was trying to debug a defect which seemingly only I keep hitting… (I have some idea why, but I am yet to discover the specifics.) Keφr 18:23, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, it works for me now. Hope you can solve your problem. DCDuring TALK 19:11, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Duplicate TLFiEdit

Kennybot (talkcontribs) has 'helpfully' added {{R:TLFi}} to all French lemmas. The problem: this include French lemmas that already had it! For example this edit to pionnier. Could anyone rectify this?

The second problem, where the TLFi link links to a nonexistent page is harder to fix and that's definitely beyond me. The first one I could fix just not yet. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:09, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Can I just check that no-one's done this? I was going to do it tomorrow. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Text editorsEdit

I've used Textpad as an editor for some 20 years, it does almost everything I need: sorting, multiple files (openable in one operation as a "workspace"), macros, find/replace (which handles /n, /t etc), and syntax highlighting, (there may be others). BUT it won't handle more than one "character set" - ie if I'm using Greek characters (η, ή etc) it handles Roman letters in the same file - but not if they're accented (é, etc).

I've been looking for another editor, can anyone recommend one (simple off the shelf (free!), not requiring "plugins" ? I've been trying Notepad++, but syntax highlighting for wiki files is difficult to sort out (Textpad makes it easy) Np++ uses XML files - with syntax and terminology I don't understand (I do html but don't wish to to master XML). Thanks — Saltmarshαπάντηση 16:00, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem is not so much the text editor, but the font and encoding. You need to make sure the encoding is some form of Unicode. Also, most simple text editors only use one font at a time and unless it supports everything you need, you will have display issues. --WikiTiki89 17:02, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Where I work, we're on Windows, and we routinely apply the Arial Unicode MS font to text to ensure that 1) all characters are displayed properly, and 2) that we don't have unnecessary internal markup where fonts change because the language changed. FWIW. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:32, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, but I'm afraid its not that simple, displaying in Athena Unicode doesn't make the problem go away. I think it's to do with the number of bits used to store each character. Textpad lets you choose which font you want displayed, but you have to opt for a script (Western|Greek|Baltic|central European|...) Western-script will give abcdef and áä éë (but not Greek alphabet) Greek-script will give abcdef and αβγδεέ (but not accented western chars) — Saltmarshαπάντηση 19:40, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not familiar with Textpad, but what you describe as "script" sounds an awful lot like the character encoding. Specific character encodings like Western, Greek, Baltic, or Central European only display those specific characters. Try using Unicode instead. Unicode has been developed precisely to overcome the problem you describe -- it's a single character encoding that defines characters for (ideally) all languages. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:21, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
    • Technically Unicode is a character set, not an encoding. The encoding is UTF-8 (or UTF-16, UTF-32, UCS-2 but those are less popular as file formats). —CodeCat 20:59, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
      UTF-16 is still more common on Windows. No one ever uses UTF-32 except as an intermediate encoding. --WikiTiki89 15:32, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
      • @CodeCat, thank you, yes, my sentence got things confused.
      • @Wikitiki89, I thought UTF-8 was more common? Then again, I work mostly with the combination of English and Japanese, so that might have something to do with it. Also, at work, we have some older tools that can only properly handle UTF-16LE (little-endian). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:17, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
        UTF-8 is more common in general, especially on the web, but specifically not on Windows, which uses UTF-16 as the native and default encoding for many things such as the command prompt. I don't think the combination of English and Japanese has anything to do with it, since that would work perfectly fine in encoding.
I sometimes use SC UniPad [2]. Not as great as TextPad or Np++ but it supports a lot of scripts and you can enter them with a big variety of keyboards and character maps or make your own. It's very useful if you want to break up complex characters, separate diacritics. It can decompose Korean hangeul into individual jamo. Great for deciphering scripts you don't know too - it gives you the names of characters and you can see diacritics separately and edit them. It has its limitations - doesn't support ligatures and doesn't have the advanced features of text editors. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:19, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

2 exceptions for клеветать and жаждать in Module:ru-verbEdit

Module:ru-verb needs some changes, please. I feel less confident now with Lua after not coding for a long time.

клеветать is type "6c" needs a "щ" parameter, like "4a" function, жаждать is "6a" type, it needs to suppress iotation, some functions use "no_iotation" parameter, e.g. "present_je_a" function.

Alternatively, I'll make full conjugation paradigms as for completely irregular verbs but I prefer not to do that. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:36, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Good try, thanks for helping :). I guess, I'll have to try it myself when I have more time. :/ --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:47, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Better Handling of Language-Code ErrorsEdit

Currently, if someone uses a language code we don't recognize, such as sp for Spanish, they get an error message that says: "Lua error in Module:<module name> at line <XX>: The language code "eng" is not valid", with a hyperlink to the module where the error was executed.

This doesn't do much for the casual contributor who doesn't know the correct language code or where to find it- telling you that the language code is invalid is better than nothing, but it doesn't tell you how to fix it.

I would suggest that we should at least refer them to WT:LOL, with extra credit for a clickable link to it. Can we do this? Chuck Entz (talk) 00:23, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think you can put links in module errors. They interfere with the link that shows the error details. —CodeCat 00:43, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
"Interference" seems to be exactly what Chuck wants, if I understand him correctly. I'm not sure what the nature of the 'interference' you invoke actually is: does it cause the servers to crash? blank users screens? break the internet? defund the Bank of International Settlements? Can't errors be trapped? DCDuring TALK 01:00, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Try it and see. And errors can be trapped but I don't see much point in doing that in this case. —CodeCat 01:27, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
The reason I said "extra credit" was because I suspected that was the case. I still think we should at least figure out a good way to tell contributors where they can get correct language codes. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:03, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
It's possible to catch errors, and show a more informative message for certain errors. But we can't pick and choose which errors to catch and which to let through; either we catch them all, or none. Catching all errors would not necessarily be desirable, because there are many cases where the actual module error message is more helpful than anything we could come up with. —CodeCat 00:16, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
We could mention WT:LOL in the error message, but I suspect that sending lots of casual users to that very resource-intense page would be bad for the site's servers. - -sche (discuss) 01:03, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

A Little Module OddityEdit

{{pt-conj}} and {{pt-verb}} showed up for the first time in Category:Pages with module errors in the past day or so: It looks like the huge number of transclusions in the documentation page are pushing the Lua execution time past its limit.

What I don't understand is why this only happens when the documentation is transcluded into the template page, but not when you view the documentation page itself. Previewing both the {{pt-conj}} template and documentation pages in edit mode shows the documentation using 2.353 seconds, but the template using 29.579 seconds (commenting out {{documentation}} drops Lua usage to zero, so there's nothing in the template itself that could account for it). Even stranger, all the items in the Lua Profile for the template don't add up to 10 seconds- let alone 29.579. That leaves two-thirds of the Lua time usage unaccounted for. The memory usage is 2.87 MB and 3.66 MB, with highest expansion depths of 22 and 24, so it doesn't look like those would explain it. Null edits on both haven't changed anything.

What's going on here? Chuck Entz (talk) 05:24, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

This happened ever since Kephir converted {{documentation}} to use Lua. —CodeCat 14:03, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
Is it because the non-Lua part of the template expansion is now part of the Lua execution time? Would it be possible for the module to just export wikitext and let the expansion happen afterwards? Or have separate invocations for the part before the documentation-page transclusion and the part after, so the documentation-page expansion doesn't have to be done by Lua?
I realize this is mostly due to the complexity of Daniel Carrero's template code, and to the abnormally-large number of template calls in the documentation pages, but it does show that there's added overhead here. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:56, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I wonder why Lua even has its own execution time limit. They should really get rid of that and just use a page-wide limit. —CodeCat 22:04, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
I guess converting the pt-verb/pt-conj templates to Lua would help with the overhead and make it more maintainable in general ? It looks like it would be a bigger job, but hard for me to estimate, I'm new here. Jberkel (talk) 15:21, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
Absolutely. And the key to peace in the Middle East is getting Muslims and Jews to get along with each other... ;)
The problem is that Daniel Carrero's code is notoriously impenetrable- I've described it before as a cross between spaghetti and an Escher engraving. Names like "do work" for major components of the code are a sure sign of poorly-thought-out structure and disregard for maintainability. It would be easier to have someone who knows Portuguese verbs well to just look at the output and create something new from scratch. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:05, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
Ungoliant? Keφr 18:34, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
I was working on a Lua module for Portuguese conjugation, but gave up when CodeCat and you started complaining about the amount of data modules (even though the amount of data module would be fewer than the current amount of data templates necessary...) — Ungoliant (falai) 21:01, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
That? I posted it on 21st of September, while your last edit to a subpage of Module:pt-verb (still nonexistent as of yet) was on 14th of September. I would guess you had stopped working on it for a while before.
Though I remember my thought back then was that given that these data modules are quite small, and we could not see any actual logic behind them (i.e. no code which would actually get input from a user and assemble conjugation tables), I figured that these should probably be consolidated into a single data module. Keφr 23:32, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
My approach would be the following: parse the existing templates with conjugation data into a data structure (with the help of an external script) then serialise the conjugation data back to a Lua table (could just be one file, but will be large, see Module:User:Jberkel/pt-verb-table), then write the module logic which reads the data and generates the HTML tables. Jberkel (talk) 01:18, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
I had a look at the templates, you're right, it probably needs a complete rewrite. Are there any examples of well-written inflection/conjugation modules out there? Jberkel (talk) 20:36, 30 November 2014 (UTC)
I wrote most of Module:ar-verb (Arabic) and Module:fro-verb (Old French), and I think they're fairly well written, although they may be daunting because of size; both languages have quite complex verb conjugations, and there's a lot of stuff in there to handle them. Easier for you might be Module:it-conj, which is fairly well written and close in language as well. Benwing (talk) 08:09, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for the pointers, I think I've got a handle on it, almost there. Famous last words. Jberkel (talk) 14:24, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, here is a first version: pt-conj-test. Let me know if anything is broken. Jberkel (talk) 15:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Module:tagged but not listedEdit

I made a module which scans RFX categories for pages which are not listed on their corresponding RFX pages. Outrageously ugly hack, but it seems to work well enough. Discuss. Keφr 15:56, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

It sounds quite useful. - -sche (discuss) 01:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
@Kephir: The unstrip() hack is going to break on December 10th. The Vietnamese Wiktionary is using this same trick for its main page at the moment, so I filed T76844 to request that DynamicPageListEngine be installed there as a cleaner way to process DPL output. Perhaps the same should be done for this wiki. – Minh Nguyễn 💬 09:49, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, please. (Mxn: making a after you already signed your post does not work. See mw:Help:Echo.) Keφr 11:23, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Editing an AppendixEdit

I would like to correct the transliteration of one of the Bulgarian numerals in Appendix:Cardinal numbers 0 to 9. Unfortunately one can't edit it by clicking on "edit". How is this done? --Kreuzkümmel (talk) 17:09, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Words are automatically transliterated based on the language given. One of the words was tagged as Belarusian by mistake, so it was transliterated as if it were Belarusian. I fixed that now. —CodeCat 17:16, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Manual translit is being ignoredEdit

On page Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/ph₂tḗr, the manual translit param tr=pitrulu for Telugu is getting ignored in favor of the auto translit pitṛlu. (I have no idea if the manual translit is even correct -- I suspect it may not be -- but it's what was present before in parens after the entry.) Benwing (talk) 06:21, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

That's an expected behaviour. Manual translit is suppressed. Telugu is 100% phonetic, at least in terms of transliteration. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:38, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

"D" button in Recent Changes not workingEdit

The red "D" accelerator button (to delete an entry directly from Recent Changes) doesn't seem to work any more. It says "notoken: the token parameter must be set". Equinox 14:39, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Categorization of lb-adjEdit

Somebody ought to place the template {{lb-adj}} into Category:Luxembourgish headword-line templates, but I'm not sure how that works. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 09:43, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

Done. —CodeCat 13:15, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

December 2014

Interwiki botsEdit

Are any interwiki bots running at all - Ruakhbot or others? Also, I noticed that Min Nan wiki entries (nan) are usually not touched. They are not fancy but shouldn't be ignored. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:29, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I believe Rukhabot is still running- when User:Ruakh has the time. Not that often, but far better than nothing. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:58, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Can't see anything in Special:Contributions/Ruakhbot. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:14, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
You spelled it wrong, it's Special:Contributions/Rukhabot (the difference has to do with Hebrew grammar; there's a short explanation on its user page). Anyway, it clearly hasn't run since August. --WikiTiki89 06:22, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Mea culpa. I will try to start a run sometime this week. (Are there no other active interwiki-bots anymore? That's unfortunate. Rukhabot is the most comprehensive interwiki-bot in mainspace, operating based on XML dumps like Interwicket (talkcontribs) used to do, but there used to be others that ran based on recent-changes and "seeding". And Rukhabot has never touched non-mainspace pages such as categories; we have always depended entirely on "traditional" interwiki-bots for that.) —RuakhTALK 01:00, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
@Ruakh: Yes, please restart, if you can.
A couple of questions: Does it link to redirects in other languages? 三輪車 is a redirect to 三轮车 on Chinese wiktionary (zh).
Are there excluded wikis, which are ignored, e.g. Min Nan (zh-min-nan) (not sure if it's excluded by your bot but I noticed that interwikis are often one-sided)? Compare e.g [3]] and 三輪車. The English entry is linked to Min Nan but it's not linked back to other wikis. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:57, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Re: "Does it link to redirects in other languages?": For redirects like zh:三輪車 (which are "redirects" in the proper HTTP sense, rather than in the sense we usually mean on enwikt), no: it does not.
Re: "Are there excluded wikis, which are ignored, e.g. Min Nan (zh-min-nan) [] ?": It excludes "closed" Wiktionaries, such as those for Tibetan, Moldovan, and Romansh; but the Min Nan Wiktionary is not closed, and therefore is not excluded. (See e.g. minnan?diff=28872250.)
Re: "I noticed that interwikis are often one-sided": As explained at User:Rukhabot#Interwikis, Rukhabot only edits en.wikt.
Note that it would be very difficult for me to change the interwiki-link behavior, because I would risk getting into accidental revert-wars with the other interwiki-bots. I have a lot more freedom with the translation-link behavior, which is why the translation-links do have a little bit of support for "redirects" like zh:三輪車.
RuakhTALK 06:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
@Ruakh: Thank you. I see you have no control over other wikis. Are able (please consider) to add HTML redirects? We probably centralise traditional and simplified Chinese entries into traditional, pls see Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/December#New_changes_to_Chinese_entries. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:50, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Er, I think you misunderstood me? I'm saying that I can't just start supporting HTTP redirects, because then I would get into revert-wars with the interwiki-bots that don't support them. (By the way, 'HTML' and 'HTTP' are not the same thing.) —RuakhTALK 02:23, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
@Ruakh: Sorry, I meant HTTP redirects. What other bots do you mean? I meant making possible linking English Wiktionary's 三輪車 to zh:三轮车]. Did you mean this particular link is going to cause revert-wars? Please confirm. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
What Ruakh is saying is that if his bot (or anyone else) adds that link, one of the other interwiki bots will remove it. --WikiTiki89 02:50, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Sorry if my question/request sounded stupid. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:16, 5 December 2014 (UTC)


There is an odd behavior with {{ping}}. It's been working fine and sent notifications (a red number next to my user name) but today it did not and even when I click the list of notifications, the new one is not even there. There was a period after the template call instead of the usual space. Would that cause this issue? I wanted to test it but apparently I can't ping my own user name. --Panda10 (talk) 20:04, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Just to note, the reason you can't ping yourself is that, to do so, you'd have to save and view the page that had just pinged you. Which of course just removes the ping right away. —CodeCat 21:05, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
@CodeCat:. Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 21:36, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
One way to ping yourself is to open a second browser in which you're not logged on, then ping your own name as an anon. I just did that, and it worked: I got a notification. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:30, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Hi @Angr:. Ok, but you used a space after the template call. I am pinging you now with a period after it. Let me know if you get a notification. --Panda10 (talk) 21:36, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
@Panda10:. Yes, I did. Did you? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes. In that case, I have no idea why I did not get that one message. Thank you for testing. --Panda10 (talk) 21:48, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
The pinging function is often unreliable. It's often happened to me that I've failed to get notifications despite being pinged, without any discernible reason. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
It's good to know. Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 22:17, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Note that if the post isn't signed properly, or if the edit adding the post removed any lines from the page, or if the ping link isn't formatted normally, the user won't get a notification. --Yair rand (talk) 01:05, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
mw:Help:Echo. Keφr 17:35, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Scan Azeri entries for incorrect yaaEdit

Can someone scan the dumps and make a list of all pages with an ==Azeri== L2 that contain the letter ي (U+064A, ARABIC LETTER YEH) either in the page title or in the text of the page? These should all be replaced with ی (U+06CC, ARABIC LETTER FARSI YEH). I just fixed a few, but have no idea how many more there. --WikiTiki89 16:26, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I only see one (پوميدور), which you've already moved. I could scan translation tables too, if you think it's worthwhile. DTLHS (talk) 17:02, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Interesting that you didn't find Azərbaycan, which I also just fixed. Are you sure you checked the Latin- and Cyrillic-script entries? --WikiTiki89 17:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
My bad, I just checked the title, not the page text. DTLHS (talk) 17:08, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

bir fil din mis dünya ayı diz سو miras фил динозавр avtomobil birlik دین balıq yarasa pomidor silah Azərbaycan мирас میمون təyyarə тәјјарә imza çiçək maşın ədəbiyyat dəniz qızıl dərya gəmi heyvan minarə siçan дин kəndir әдәбијјат kərpic zeytun зејтун şirkət milçək göyərçin bibər meymun jasmin dayanacaq kəfgir qərənfil yoxsul kasıb böyrək xəzinə aclıq hinduşka həqiqət cib damcı پوميدور طیاره qarışqa qalay yasəmən مئیمون мејмун dinozavr Əs-Səlamu əleykum

DTLHS (talk) 17:23, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks! --WikiTiki89 17:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Courtesy of Lo Ximiendo. --Vahag (talk) 17:58, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
See also the translations and links on Azeri. DTLHS (talk) 18:03, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
I fixed all those, but I guess it also looks like it may be worth scanning all translation tables. --WikiTiki89 18:09, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Checking ي vs ی and ك vs ک, which look alike in certain positions could be a regular task for patrollers. It's a common mistake for Arabic, Persian, Urdu, Azeri, etc, when entries are made using, e.g. wrong IME. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
What I found when correcting the yaas was that usually the kaf was correct in the same word where the yaa was wrong. --WikiTiki89 23:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, yāʾ/ye errors are more common for both Arabic ي and ى (ʾalif maqṣūra) (which looks even more like Persian ی, but a while ago, there was a contributor who used Persian keyboard for Arabic words and she used "kāf" as well. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:38, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Or a task for the script detection module (why was it disabled?) DTLHS (talk) 16:48, 4 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, patrolling doesn't have to be manual, mixing Roman and Cyrillic scripts has been quite common, I have fixed quite a few when I spotted them. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:05, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
On a related note, could someone delete کيلو and رجوليت for me, please? Thank you. ك could well be considered an 'alternative spelling' for Persian entries. Kaixinguo (talk) 13:52, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Template:etyl edit protected requestEdit

"Anglo-Norman" (xno) should link to w:Anglo-Norman language, and not to w:Anglo-Norman, as it presently does. See e.g. beauty#Etymology. It Is Me Here t / c 17:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Presumably it's actually Module:etymology language/data that needs to be changed, but I'm not sure how. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:52, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
N.B. they manage to do it for Georgian at Template:etyl/documentation, if that's any help. It Is Me Here t / c 19:24, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, practically all languages automatically have the word "language" added to the end in {{etyl}}, but Anglo-Norman doesn't, and I don't know why. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:06, 3 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done For "normal" languages — ones with actual mainspace support and so on — it uses the language-name as it appears in categories, which is generally just the normal name plus "language". (There are some configured exceptions — ase category-names and etymology-Wikipedia-links use "American Sign Language" rather than "American Sign Language language" — but that's the default.) For languages defined in Module:etymology language/data, the default is just to use the first listed name, unless configured otherwise with an explicit wikipedia_article value. I've now configured xno to link to w:Anglo-Norman language. —RuakhTALK 04:31, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Huge edit, unreadable in wiki software? consolesEdit

What's going on here at consoles? I can't even view the diff. I managed to roll it back though. [4] Equinox 19:58, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

It's just a bunch of junk JavaScript code, which comes out like even worse junk when interpreted as wikitext. --WikiTiki89 21:12, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Howler in Template:it-nounEdit

You can no longer specify the other gender plural in {{it-noun}}. The rationale is, that plural goes on the other gender form. So nominatrici cannot be linked to using it-noun in nominatore, but you can link to it from nominatrice so there's no problem. However, for -ista nouns, the other gender noun is the same as the page name! For example alchimista you can't specific a masculine plural and a feminine plural unless both plurals are identical, which they aren't! I had to switch to {{head|it|noun}}. FWIW I'd rather we just allow linking to the other gender plural, but that's a policy issue, not a technical one. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:39, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

In cases like these we would just create two noun sections with separate definitions, just like for nominatore and nominatrice. They're still separate nouns with separate meanings, they just happen to have some forms in common. —CodeCat 14:11, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I disagree, they're the same noun with the same meaning. CodeCat are you breaking things to avoid boredom again? Renard Migrant (talk) 15:42, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
They have different meanings. You can't call a nominatore a nominatrice. —CodeCat 17:58, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
The issue is with alchimista and similar Italian nouns ending in -ista, where one single word refers to both masculine and feminine in the singular, but that same word has two different plural forms depending on the gender. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:23, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, and I'm arguing that there are two nouns, alchimista m (male alchemist) and alchimista f (female alchemist). —CodeCat 19:25, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
  • That wasn't clear initially -- “You can't call a nominatore a nominatrice” made it sound like a different issue.
It seems then as though you're advocating for data redundancy, rather than a simple and elegant means of combining duplicate information. I'm not sure why, especially when we used to have just such a solution. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:10, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Being accurate is still more important than not being redundant. There are many nouns in many languages that are synonyms of each other, but by and large we still have full definitions for both of them. But in this case, they aren't even synonyms. We would never define policewoman with the exact same definitions as policeman, because they clearly mean different things. The same applies here: you can't use alchimisti and alchimiste interchangeably, they refer to different things. Common sense says that words with different meanings must have different definitions, and cannot be combined into one word anymore than policewomen and policemen can. —CodeCat 20:27, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
  • CodeCat, again your comment suggests that you and I are talking past each other. The issue at hand is not about treating alchimisti and alchimiste interchangeably. It is about having one single entry for the singular form alchimista, which, in the singular, happens to be either masculine or feminine (presumably indicated by the article used), and indicating in the headline for alchimista that this term has two separate plural forms, depending on the gender. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:52, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
Does anyone other than CodeCat agree with CodeCat about this? --WikiTiki89 22:30, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
Not sure why this is not in Beer parlour. Is the undiscussed change still left unreverted? --Dan Polansky (talk) 22:45, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I agree with CodeCat. Very often, such words are grouped in paper dictionaries, but it's for space reasons only. And the meaning of the feminine noun associated to the masculine noun is often unclear in these dictionaries: in French, if boulanger and boulangère are described in the same entry, the meaning wife of ... is usually omitted, very unfortunately. Lmaltier (talk) 22:54, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

But we aren't discussing boulanger and boulangère, we are discussing (using French as an example) words like chimiste that have the same masculine and feminine form. In French, the plurals are the same, but in Italian, they are different, but they are still one word in the singular. --WikiTiki89 22:59, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
In French, yes, for simplicity, it's possible to consider chimiste as a single word, either masculine (for men) or feminine (for women). But, for alchimista in Italian, different plurals clearly mean that they are different words. In Italian, nouns have a gender, either masculine or feminine. Lmaltier (talk) 06:26, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I got to wondering, here we are blathering on about this in English, what do the Italians think? If any Italian speakers can chime in here, please do. I note that none of the participants so far in this thread self-report any Italian knowledge.
FWIW, The IT WT is missing any it:alchmista entry, but they do have an entry for it:specialista, with just the one listing for both masculine and feminine, and two separate entries for the plural.
Note: I did have a look at the history for {{it-noun}}, and the last change was in February 2013 when Semper removed the old template code and replaced it with an invocation of Module:it-head. That was last changed in late July this year by CodeCat, but briefly looking over the changes, I don't think those changes affected plural handling. In short, it looks like {{it-noun}} has had this deficiency for a while, possibly since it was first created.
If this IT WT entry is at all representative, and if Renard Migrant's comments above are accurate about the state of affairs in {{it-noun}}, then this template needs alteration to allow for this case (single gender-agnostic singular form, separate gender-specific plural forms). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:52, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't think knowledge of Italian is needed; the matter is presented clearly enough for English-speaking lexicographers to be able to judge the matter well enough. Chiming in from native speakers of multiple inflected European languages featuring constructions similar or analogical to the one discussed does not harm. In Czech, most role names have gender-differentiated lemmas (učitel and učitelka for teacher), but there are cases which are not so differentiated, such as vrchní and radní, and for those it is not unequivocally obvious that we need two separate noun entries, each having a distinct sense. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:18, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
I disagree with splitting definitions of nouns with common gender. Yeah, English nouns don’t have gender and different words must be used when referring to a specific sex, but why should this affect languages that do inflect for gender? — Ungoliant (falai) 16:42, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
How about nouns with identical masculine and feminine singulars and identical masculine and feminine plurals as well? Check out this edit to French marxiste. Isn't this just reader-alienating silliness? Renard Migrant (talk) 13:25, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Precisely what I’m talking about. It’s confusing, inaccurate (at least for Italian and Portuguese, the masculine isn’t merely a male X, it’s also the form used when the sex is unknown or irrelevant) and it wastes the time of readers and contributors alike. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:46, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

Revisiting the issue of English UK/US spellings and entry synchroni(s|z)ationEdit

Following from the Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup#anonymize thread, I wanted to bring up again the technical possibilities for maintaining a single dataset (page) for entries with multiple spellings, where the only difference in the spellings is regional (i.e. it has no bearing on meaning, etc.).

Every once in a while, curiosity or frustration bubbles up regarding English entries with different spellings, such as color and colour, and the challenges of maintaining content on both pages. I dimly recall past discussions about this, where the consensus that evolved was that the technical limitations were too great to allow for anything other than either picking one spelling as the lemma and redirecting the other, or just manually maintaining both pages.

However, the last such discussion that I can remember took place before we got Lua. Now that we have proper string processing, I started wondering if we might not be able to come up with something that would work.

As a quick-and-dirty sample, I created User:Eirikr/Template_Tests/colour and User:Eirikr/Template_Tests/color, which both just pull from User:Eirikr/Template Tests/colo(u)r. The plural forms for this word pair are quite simple, so no special processing is needed. More complicated plural forms would need another approach, but at the moment, I cannot think of any UK/US word pairs with more complicated plurals. Another sample pair to demonstrate a verb is at User:Eirikr/Template_Tests/anonymise and User:Eirikr/Template_Tests/anonymize, both of which pull from User:Eirikr/Template_Tests/anonymi(sz)e.

An alternate approach would be to pick one spelling as the "main" one that would contain the data, and just transclude that into the other spelling directly, without using a third page.

Maintaining two separate pages, where ostensibly the only differences should be in regional labels and other specifics, has proven problematic. See the discrepancies between honor and honour, for instance. Maintaining a single dataset instead and applying some simple structured authoring techniques looks like a saner and more consistent way forward.

What are your thoughts? Is this something we could implement? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:07, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

  • I oppose synchronizing entries via templates; we had this before and we quit this. I oppose the use of Grease pit for this discussion. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:25, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
    • I oppose Dan's opposition to a solution. If you can't come up with a solution, opposing the attempts made by others is not helpful. Therefore, I declare this opposition void as it is only obstructive and not contributing to solving the problem in any way. —CodeCat 20:31, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
This is the correct place for discussing the technical aspects of whether something can be done and how we might do it. It's only the matter of whether to actually implement it that has to go to the Beer parlour. The cases where decisions to implement things were made here aren't an argument against discussing things here, but against omitting the Beer parlour step in the process. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:57, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
I disagree. Whether this kind of thing should be done should be discussed in Beer parlour. This discussion should have been started in Beer parlour, since there are no technical difficulties to be discussed, merely whether we want to use templates and thereby complicate editing. --Dan Polansky (talk) 22:05, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
  • After e/c... @Dan Polansky: The grease pit is for technical discussions. This is a technical discussion. Why do you “oppose the use of Grease pit for this discussion”?
  • Yes, indeed, we had this discussion before -- as I explicitly note in my initial post here (“I wanted to bring up again”). Much has changed in the technical capabilities of the MediaWiki platform, in ways that, I believe, alter the parameters enough to warrant discussing this again. We turned down a similar idea once before, under different conditions. Under current conditions, I am interested in what community members think.
Note that this issue affects relatively few terms: just those where multiple spellings are all regarded as full lemmata in their own rights, and where the content on all of the relevant pages is (or should be) identical except for spellings and regional tags. Increasing complexity by adding such a workaround (to what is ultimately a technical issue) also reduces complexity by simplifying page maintenance. I believe the net effect on editing complexity is actually a reduction.
I now understand that you are opposed, so thank you for making that clear. However, I do not fully understand why you are opposed. Could you articulate your position? Is your only opposition that it increases a specific kind of complexity, in a small and very specific subset of entries? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I understand Dan's opposition. He's not the only editor to oppose this suggestion for the reason that it makes editing more complicated. Nevertheless, if we can't have the two spellings in one heading like other dictionaries, then I support this proposal. Dbfirs 21:51, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
  • The Lua function :getContent() might be useful. See User:Wyang/anonymize - Of course more code and format standardisation of source entry are needed, but this could avoid having to update both pages. Wyang (talk) 22:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)
    • Actually, I think we can avoid using Lua for this. There is a MediaWiki extension whose name I cannot recall designed to make partial page transclusions possible. I think we even have it installed here on Wiktionary. Keφr 18:16, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
      • mw:Extension:Labeled Section Transclusion. (Ironically, "labeled" is spelled the US way.) Keφr 18:18, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
        • Wow, that is excellent. It would be great if the {{#lsth:}} function could be enabled. Wyang (talk) 20:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
          • We can't use {{#lsth:}} because as far as I can tell from the documentation, there is no way to specify for example which ===Noun=== section to transclude out of the many noun sections on the page. I see nothing wrong with using {{#lst:}} and marking the sections explicitly. --WikiTiki89 20:48, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
            • I made test pages at User:Wikitiki89/colour and User:Wikitiki89/color, but it seems that the feature is not enabled. --WikiTiki89 20:50, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
              • Ya, sorry I missed participating in this earlier. I'd found out about LST quite some time back and got excited by the possibilities, only to find that it didn't work here. That's part of why my sample pages (linked above) use {{ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} | UK spelling | UK spelling details | US spelling details }}.
              That said, shows that this is now installed on Wiktionary. I put together some rudimentary testing at User:Eirikr/Sandbox as the source, and User:Eirikr/Scratchpad as the page transcluding the source. However, given the way that LST works, I don't think it's what we need for UK/US entry synchronization, since here, we don't need to transclude specific subsections by name, and instead we need to conditionally determine which spelling to present to the reader, for one specific word. {{ifeq: {{PAGENAME}} ... }} is ugly, but without variables that can be set once and accessed from anywhere within the page, that's the only non-Lua way I can think of to do this. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:38, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
              The issue is not "which spelling to present to the reader", but how we can synchronize the content without moving the content to the template namespace. In other words, we want the content to be located at one of the entries and transcluded onto the other(s), and that's where LST becomes handy. --WikiTiki89 22:51, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
              • Ah, sorry, I was still working from the assumption that content would be in a third page. (I dimly recall that past similar discussions got hung up on political considerations of which spelling to use as the "main" one, so User:Eirikr/Template_Tests/colo(u)r works around that by having both UK and US spellings call the content from a third neutrally spelled page.) That said, even with LST as you describe here, which spelling to use is still a consideration (just not the consideration with regard to using LST). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:58, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
                • I think Lua is more promising than LST. But it might also be slower. —CodeCat 22:59, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Which differences should be considered as normal between such pages? It's not always easy to tell, and differences may appear years after creation of pages. Possible differences are:

  • spelling (of course)
  • quotations (of course)
  • inflected forms: plural, etc. (of course)
  • conjugation tables (of course)
  • geographical area
  • period of use
  • pronunciation (either due to the different area or to the different period)
  • usage notes
  • meaning: it may appear that, unexpectedly, the precise meanings are slightly different, or that some meaning is particular to a spelling
  • synonyms, etc. (because of the possible difference of meanings, but also because some synonyms may be specific to a period or to a geographic area)
  • translations (because of the possible difference of meanings)
  • anagrams (of course)
  • gender (unlikely, but possible)
  • etymology (sometimes, the origin of the specific spelling may be of interest)

In other terms, everything may differ. I think that differences are normal, that discrepancies are not a problem, and that users opening honor and users opening honour may have different expectations (e.g. why not a different spelling in definitions and notes in these pages?). But comparing the history of spellings may be interesting nonetheless, and should be encouraged when interesting. The most important thing is that users should never be asked to click on a link in order to get information they need about the word: both pages should be as complete as possible (it will always be the case if pages are improved with time). Also remember the KISS principle: contributors should not be discouraged by complexity. Lmaltier (talk) 22:33, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Lmaltier, all of what you mention above might indeed have differences depending on spelling. In the case of UK/US entries, however, I would argue that all of that information still belongs in one place, and should be accessible from either spelling. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:38, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Support the centralisation of US/UK, etc. spellings under one entry (whatever is chosen) in principle. Agreed to the move of the discussion to BP. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:40, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
Oh? I wasn't supporting just one entry. I thought we were discussing keeping separate entries with just one set of definitions where appropriate, and avoiding "alternative spelling of" and the like. Anyway, I support the move to BP. Dbfirs 10:00, 8 December 2014 (UTC)
I Support the centralization of US/UK, etc. as long as: i)the content stays in the Main space and will not be moved to some obscure location in the Template namespace or even worse in the Lua-function namespace, ii) the templates/functions added to the content page don't alter the layout too much allowing to keep the main basic formating scheme, i.e. editing the conntent by humans or bots/javascript should not complicated too much by the unification.Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 05:53, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I would support using the Oxford spelling as the main lemma (i.e. colour and analyse, but localize). --WikiTiki89 06:07, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Support any sane way to avoid the duplication, bearing in mind that some senses (e.g. obsolete Shakespeare) may only be attestable in one spelling. Equinox 10:19, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
This discussion seems to have been diverted slightly onto a different tack. I agree with Equinox about obsolete and rare spellings because the user needs to be made aware of the rarity, but no user wishes to be told that the standard spelling of a common word in his country is an "alternative spelling" and have to click on a proscribed spelling to find the definitions. Dbfirs 16:46, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
It wouldn't be so bad if it says "American spelling of" or "British spelling of". --WikiTiki89 18:14, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
Agreed. We did get that changed on some entries, but it's still not ideal. Dbfirs 09:42, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I don't like the idea that spellings exist within a binary American/British dichotomy. What about Canada, Ireland, Trinidad...? Equinox 13:05, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I think Canada's the only one that really has its own spelling conventions; every other English-speaking country uses either US spellings or UK spellings consistently. And even Canada doesn't have any spellings that are uniquely its own; each word is spelled either the British way or the American way. For example, Brits might buy rubber casings for car wheels at a tyre centre, and Americans at a tire center, but Canadians would go to a tire centre. And Brits might have a paralysed neighbour and Americans a paralyzed neighbor, but Canadians would have a paralyzed neighbour. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:51, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I was only using American and British as the most significant examples. If we use Oxford spelling as the lemma, then "Canadian spelling of" would be pretty rare, in fact I don't know of any cases where they differ. What's also always confused me is why we Americans write advertise instead of advertize. --WikiTiki89 19:39, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
I gave two examples of Canadian spelling deviating from Oxford spelling above: tire and paralyze (also curb and analyze). As for advertise, it isn't etymologically advert + -ize, so we don't spell it that way (likewise televise, compromise, surprise, etc., are spelled with s). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:14, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Yogourt is a uniquely Canadian spelling, used on product packaging for French compatibility, although yogurt is probably the most common in Canada.
Canada is also more tolerant of foreign spellings (British or American), and less likely to see them as errors. In very many cases, the “foreign” spelling is also an alternative Canadian spelling. Makes it hard to mark up dictionary senses clearly. Michael Z. 2014-12-22 19:58 z
Umm... Oxford spelling also uses tire and paralyze. Don't confuse Oxford spelling with British spelling. I guess you're right about advertise. --WikiTiki89 02:29, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Dammit you're right about paralyze. I always confuse -y(s/z)e and -i(s/z)e. --WikiTiki89 02:32, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I think I'm right about tire too. Oxford dictionaries call that an American spelling in the sense of a rubber or plastic covering of a motor vehicle's wheel and accept only tyre in that sense. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:24, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Firstly, as you know, the ODE is not the OED. But I guess the actual Oxford spelling is disputable. The OED has entries for both "TIRE n.2 2b" and "TYRE n.5 2a", but describes the latter as a variant of the former. --WikiTiki89 14:37, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
The OED is pretty much the last place I'd go to find out what the Oxford spelling of a word is, because it's so comprehensive and so unabashedly descriptive that it lists everything ever attested. If you use an Oxford dictionary for everyday writing, you should use ODE or COED or and they all agree that tire in this sense is an American (or rather, North American) spelling. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:06, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Then I guess the question is "What is Oxford spelling?" I always thought it was defined by the spelling used by the OED. Note that for -i(s/z)e endings, the OED does not have entries at all for localise, but such spellings are found in the quotations listed at localize. It would be interesting to see which spelling of tire/tyre is used in the OED's definitions of other words. --WikiTiki89 16:32, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
To me, Oxford spelling is the spelling preferred by Oxford University Press in all its publications, for example a journal article published by OUP called “Environmental impact assessment of a scrap tyre artificial reef” or this article mentioning “five trucks equipped with four different types of tyres”. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:32, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
All publications in British English use the spelling tyre except when they are deliberately using the archaic spelling tire which used to be used for the iron rim of wheels. Most educators in the UK (including Oxford University itself) now recommend the use of the ise ending where there is a choice in British English, so the so-called Oxford spelling is gradually disappearing on this side of the pond. Of course, some words (advertise, advise, apprise, chastise, comprise, compromise, despise, devise, disguise, excise, exercise, improvise, incise, prise (meaning ‘open’), promise, revise, supervise, surmise, surprise, televise etc) cannot have z in modern British English. Dbfirs 19:18, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
None of the words in that list can have z in American English either, at least not in proofread/copyedited American English. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:48, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I knew that many of them were z-proscribed but wasn't sure about others (such as prize) in American English. Dbfirs 20:15, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Prise in the sense of "open" has become pry in American English anyway. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Oh yes, I'd forgotten that. (I'm not fully conversant with modern American usage.) Our entries at prize (etymology 1 noun sense 7 and etymology 2 verb sense 3) obviously need some adjustment. They could be marked "proscribed" or just mis-spellings for British English, but they seem to appear in some American dictionaries. Dbfirs 21:28, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
  • After this discussion has run its course and before there is the required vote on any specific proposal, there should be a Beer Parlor discussion on this obviously non-technical matter. DCDuring TALK 17:02, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Apologies for not having read all of the discussion above. The duplication and separate maintenance of so much content across, say, "color" and "colour" is crazy. I have always thought so. Once I "naively" tried to merge one of these pairs -- can't remember which one now -- assuming that duplicated entries had been created in error, only for it to be reverted. However it is achieved technically, some way of maintaining shared content once only would be highly desirable.
Yes, we all agree that one set of definitions, where appropriate, would be a good idea, but we cannot agree on the best way to achieve this. Merging to one spelling is not a good solution, though there are some editors who force this on us. Dbfirs 12:40, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Citations pages created with empty template documentationEdit

Not sure why users/bots are creating these, but I've seen many of them. They create a Citations: page that contains the {{documentation subpage}} stuff. An example (which I've since deleted) is at Citations:脚本. Could someone please write an abuse filter to prevent it? Equinox 03:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

It's because the Citations namespace has the same preload settings somewhere as the Documentation namespace. It was brought up here before, but nothing came of it. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:20, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
It was in MediaWiki:Gadget-DocTabs.js. And I actually fixed that script long ago, but apparently there are still un-fixed versions of it lingering in people's browser caches. We would have to convince people who do it to clear their cookies and localStorage. Quite hopeless, really. The best I could do is probably put; into MediaWiki:Common.js and leave it there for a few weeks, but it will strain WMF servers somewhat. Keφr 18:10, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Etymological treesEdit

Etymologies here tend to be displayed in the same format as paper dictionaries. It's a concise format that works well for linear etymologies but in my opinion can be confusing for compound words or when there are multiple possible branches.

At the Vietnamese Wiktionary, we've been nesting vi:Bản mẫu:etym-from to create etymological trees. (For better or worse, we copied the Dutch Wiktionary's penchant for templatizing everything.) Linear etymologies appear inline, but as soon as any branch has an ancestor, the display turns into a nested list. Unfortunately, I'm literally the only person who's been using this template because the syntax is so hideous.

The other day, I came across {{etymtree}}. Though it confusingly deals with descendants rather than the contents of "Etymology" sections, it gave me the idea to implement complex etymologies as "family trees". vi:Bản mẫu:etym takes the same information as etym-from, but with a much simpler syntax based on wiki lists. vi:Mô đun:EtymologicalTree parses it into a microformatted list that is rendered as a "family tree" using CSS. See vi:bánh bao, vi:câu lạc bộ, and vi:văn thư for some simple examples.

EtymologicalTree hasn't been battle-tested yet; I'm sure the English Wikipedia would have plenty of edge cases that would break it easily. But I welcome any feedback you can give, because lately there's been renewed interest in adding etymologies to the Vietnamese Wiktionary, and the community here has a lot more experience with etymologies.

 – Minh Nguyễn 💬 09:02, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Part of what makes {{etymtree}} (yes, it's badly named) work so well is that it doesn't try to parse the whole list. Rather it only parses the language name and the following colon; anything beyond that is shown as-is. It would be a lot more complicated if it had to try to extract the words themselves as well as any additional information that was provided next to them (qualifiers, etc.). Furthermore, even this template breaks if you specify more than one descendant on the same line, because it can't tell which descendants belong to each parent. —CodeCat 13:59, 10 December 2014 (UTC)
I like this idea. Wyang (talk) 20:34, 10 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit filter to prevent Ladin --> Latin header changesEdit

It seems like just about every day I revert some IP's changing of a "Ladin" L2 header to "Latin". Would someone be so kind as to add a filter to stop this? Should it be a warning or a block? Or should it be a warning for autoconfirmed and a block otherwise? Chuck Entz (talk) 14:54, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

  • Yes, I have come across this as well (several times). I have always assumed it was done in good faith so have just reverted with no block. I would give a warning if the same user persisted. SemperBlotto (talk) 11:03, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
Obviously I worded this very poorly: my question was whether the edit filter should warn those who try to make the change, or disallow it. The secondary issue was whether we might make it conditional, so that non-autoconfirmed users (IPs, mostly/all?) would be treated differently: perhaps disallowing the edit for them, but only warning others (or doing nothing in their case?). The warning should say something like "Please don't try to change Ladin headers to Latin- Ladin is a modern Romance language quite different from Latin". If they were really determined, they could probably work around it by deleting the header or first changing it to something else. Of course, I'm not sure how easy it is to compare an edit against the existing version, so the whole point could be moot.Chuck Entz (talk) 23:26, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
I think a warning is sufficient; the edit shouldn't be prevented. After all, the editor might be making other good edits at the same time; also, for all we know, somewhere out there we do have a Latin section erroneously labeled "Ladin". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:18, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
A warning sounds like a good idea to me. —RuakhTALK 21:48, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

The process of converting classic talk pages to FlowEdit

See also: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2014/December#Converting classic talk pages to Flow

(BG: Flow). There are various ways to convert talk pages to Flow. Discussed at this page. I would like to know what we would like to have. Please join the discussion. Gryllida 23:57, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Finally! I have some questions though...
  • Is this already available? If not, when will it be?
  • What about LiquidThreads?
  • What about non-talk discussions, like this page and its archives?
CodeCat 23:59, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Yuck. DCDuring TALK 01:41, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
    • My thoughts exactly. Keφr 08:50, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Eww. What a terrible idea Flow is. See my comments and Eiríkr's in the BP. - -sche (discuss) 05:53, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Please let's defer this discussion until the community has decided whether or not to use Flow at all! Equinox 06:04, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Phabricator tasks trackingEdit

Hi all, I just created the task phab:T78531 to track bugs and feature requests related to the Wiktionary project as a whole (all languages included). Language specific bugs should be tracked by a different task, e.g. phab:T76447 for the French Wiktionary, so I encourage English contributors to create a task to track en.wiktionary bugs. Dakdada (talk) 11:04, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Template:contraction ofEdit

This template is named like a definition-line template; compare Template:abbreviation of, Template:alternative spelling of, Template:genitive of, etc), so I assumed it was for use in the definition lines of pages like I'm. However, it seems to actually be used in etymology sections of pages like aband. Is this desirable or should it be renamed? Shouldn't we have a template for I'm, drum, etc? - -sche (discuss) 06:00, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not totally unknown for such definition-line templates to be used in etymologies. I've seen {{initialism of}} used that way. Of course, whether these templates are used this way and whether they should be are two different things. Renard Migrant (talk) 20:02, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Idea: view a category from one's current entryEdit

When I am viewing an entry and I click one of its (large) categories, such as "English lemmas" or "English words suffixed with -able", I find it unhelpful to be shown the first page of the category starting from the very top. Could we, and should we, change things so that we are dropped into the category at the right place, and can immediately see the alphabetically adjacent entries that surround the entry we came from? Thanks. Equinox 19:55, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible without overwriting the built-in category infrastructure (hide existing category links and create our own- probably not something we want to do). DTLHS (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
The URL could be constructed automatically by using the entry, for example to jump to the word 'ability' in the English lemmas category without paging: --Panda10 (talk) 20:49, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
I think this would be a good idea, if we could make it work. But like DTLHS said, the links are generated by the software and that's out of our control. The best we could do is make yet another JavaScript hack... —CodeCat 21:04, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
But if the point is to see alphabetically adjacent entries, we shouldn't start the page with the word the reader is coming from, but some number (20?) of entries before it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
That would be nice, in theory, but Javascript can't be counted on to know anything about what's in the category- the entry itself is the only member of the category it knows. Also, when you get into numerical displacements, it makes a big difference whether the entry is 732nd in the category or 2nd. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:41, 20 December 2014 (UTC)

Template:mul-letter not working when enteredEdit

Under I#Letter, I just added a third entry after I i and I ı: İ i. But I could not get Template:mul-letter to work for me no matter what I did.

  1. I copied it from one of the existing entries and plugged in the appropriate character(s) from the "Latin/Roman" insertion menu, and all I got was the first character, the capital letter I.
  2. I typed it all in by hand: same old same old.
  3. Finally I gave up and manually typed the wikicode to duplicate the format I saw on the existing entries, and at last I got what I needed:
    İ upper case (lower case i)

I've used & edited Wikipedia for 9 years and I've never heard of the like, but I'm pretty new to editing Wiktionary. Somebody technical, please take a look at this issue. --Thnidu (talk) 07:18, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

{{mul-letter}} is designed to work only in the entries of the lower-case and upper-case forms. — Ungoliant (falai) 12:27, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
The documentation is misleading. It says "all Translingual letter entries", without linking to wherever we explain "Translingual", as we use it. In the absence of a precise technical explanation in terms of Unicode or something a user would default to translingual. Most letters are translingual ("existing in more than one language"), so, in the absence of a link or inline explanation, Thnidu's "error" (the actual error is in the documentation) will likely be repeated. I don't know the right way to fix the documentation to make it technically accurate and potentially complete (if users are encouraged to use good links). DCDuring TALK 17:07, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Category:Middle French present participle formsEdit

Could someone add this to {{poscatboiler}}? I can't, or only by risking breaking it (which I've done to other modules before). Renard Migrant (talk) 16:13, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Should be working now. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:48, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
What's wrong with Category:Middle French participle forms? We don't need this category. —CodeCat 19:25, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

{{ja-usex}} and 々Edit

Template_talk:ja-usex#Issue_with_handling_.E3.80.85. @Wyang, Eirikr, Haplology: --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:32, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

Closed. Thanks to User:Kephir. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:24, 31 December 2014 (UTC)


malo is failing to distinguish between malo#Etymology_2 and the Latin verb mālō (see ‘Etymology 2’ under ‘Latin’), which I can't directly link to at the moment because it isn't. Esszet (talk) 17:16, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

You’ll have to use {{anchor}}. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:24, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
In this case, it may be better to switch the etymology sections and link directly to #Latin, since Etymology 1 is an inflected form and Etymology 2 a lemma. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:28, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Would you mind explaining exactly what I have to do? {{anchor}} doesn't have documentation, and I can't figure out from the other pages it's used on what to do. Esszet (talk) 22:12, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Add an ID as the first parameter ([5]), then link to it using the ID (malo#la_ety_2). — Ungoliant (falai) 22:17, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
That works for purposes of linking, but if you click on ‘Etymology 2’ under ‘Latin’ in the TOC, it takes you to the etymology of the Galician word malo. Esszet (talk) 22:45, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
I don’t think that can be fixed. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:48, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
A similar doesn't exist on other pages; on si, for example, the several ‘Etymology 1’ sections are distinguished by numbers after the ‘1’; for example, si#Etymology_1_2 and si#Etymology_1_3. Why can't the section for mālō be marked ‘Etymology_2_2’? Esszet (talk) 23:41, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Oh, wait, I think I see why. The section for mālō is the first ’Etymology 2’ section, so it doesn't see the need to put an additional ‘2’ after it, and the mālō section is thus confused with the second ‘Etymology’ section, which is also marked ‘Etymology_2’. This looks like it would require a change to the Wiktionary source code to fix it. Esszet (talk) 23:49, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, our section naming practice conflicts with the hidden link numbers added by MediaWiki. The same problem doesn’t occur in si because the section Etymology 2 comes before the second numberless Etymology section (under Dalmatian, which can’t be linked to). — Ungoliant (falai) 23:55, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Alright, where do I go to fix this? Esszet (talk) 23:58, 25 December 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, no idea. — Ungoliant (falai) 00:07, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
I've reported the issue on MediaWiki's Support Desk, and someone opened a bug for it. Esszet (talk) 12:09, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
And within two days User:Jackmcbarn has proposed a patch. :) I won't get too excited until the patch is approved, but it's great to see someone trying so quickly to address this widespread, significant, simple problem. - -sche (discuss) 17:16, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Etiquette for Module EditorsEdit

I would suggest that anyone who edits a widely-transcluded module should check Category:Pages with module errors at least once a day for a day or two after any edit. Those who regularly do so should make a habit of checking it at least once a day, every day. It just seems like common sense to check the most obvious place where problems will show up so you can catch errors or unforeseen side-effects, and not checking after edits seems like driving blindfolded.

Case in point: there are about a dozen Chinese entries that have been there for upwards of a week with an error in Module:zh-forms. I don't know who caused it, but User:Wyang edited the module about the time the errors started, so he would have spotted them if he had checked. Likewise, whoever corrected the Japanese module problem above should have noticed that a Japanese entry with a different error has shown up in the category since then.

As someone with minimal Lua skills, I'm very grateful for those who are making improvements and fixing things, and I feel bad about having to nag them- but a module error can negate all the benefits of using a module in the first place. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:00, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Those errors are caused by incorrect formatting - see diff for an example. Wyang (talk) 22:17, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
I stand by what I said, though your case apparently isn't a good example of what I do see more than I should. Still, your explanation is sort of like saying "there's no way I could have shot that man, because I was robbing a bank at the time". Any idea when you can fix those entries? Chuck Entz (talk) 05:05, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm on holiday and won't be back until after New Year. Those errors have been sitting there for years and years. If my bot hadn't editted those articles, the wrong information on those pages could be displaying forever. If you see an entry in that error category, instead of absentmindedly singling out whoever might be responsible, see what the real cause is and see if it's something as easy to fix as this. It's not at all related to faults in the modules I created. Even if someone's module edit caused articles to be placed in that category, I disagree with the statement that a module error negates all the benefits. Wyang (talk) 10:26, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
From one volunteer to another: enjoy your vacation! There'll be plenty of time to nag you when you get back... ;) Chuck Entz (talk) 00:18, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

A New Way to Handle Deprecated TemplatesEdit

Would it be possible to have deprecated templates add an invisible text string that would trigger an edit filter which would give a deprecation warning? This would have the advantage of targeting the warning at those who are making edits without cluttering up the entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 19:27, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Edit Filter only checks the source of page, the templates can not add any extra text to the source when they are transcluded, it is possible when it is substituted ("{subst:...}") though. --Z 17:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Oh, well, it would have been nice if it had worked. I suppose that edit filters looking for specific templates in the source would still work, though- in moderation. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:32, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

{{was wotd}} and Images (and Presumably Other Multimedia Objects)Edit

When {{was wotd}} is placed immediately above an image (or presumably another type of multimedia object), a gap is created in the text next to the WOTD link (see here for an example). Esszet (talk) 22:25, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

I don't see it at [[glyph]] using Firefox 34.0.5, Windows 7, fairly big screen, and my Wiktionary preferences, which include ToC right. Is your screen or window very narrow? What browser (and version) are you using? DCDuring TALK 23:42, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
No, and Safari 8.0.2 on OS X 10.10.1. Esszet (talk) 01:04, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I definitely can't help, but that info might enable someone else to. DCDuring TALK 01:37, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
What I see at glyph is the text after the image staying below it, instead of moving up on the left. In this case, the Etymology L3 header stays below the image, so there's a gap between the English L2 header and the Etymology L3 header that's the height of the {{was wotd}} display and the image combined. This only happens when there's no text between {{was wotd}} and the graphic element below it (it has the same effect when followed immediately by {{wikipedia}}): if I add a single letter to the right of {{was wotd}} or below it, the effect goes away. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:40, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
That sounds like a bug in the browser then. —CodeCat 02:45, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Except I happen to be using Internet Explorer 11 on a PC at the moment, and Esszet is using Safari on a Mac- that sounds like a very widespread bug! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:48, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
For me, the L3 header is at the same height as the image, and adding text to the right of or below {{was wotd}} doesn't make the gap go away; the text simply appears within it. I've looked at {{was wotd}}, and I don't see anything wrong with it, so I'm guessing the problem lies in the source code for image layout. I've just realized that there are very few types of multimedia objects on Wiktionary, and {{audio}} can't be aligned on the right of the page, so I can't see if the problem persists with other types of multimedia objects. Esszet (talk) 14:32, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
You could try something else that was right-aligned, like {{examples-right}}. DCDuring TALK 14:39, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Same problem. Esszet (talk) 15:59, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

January 2015

Right-to-left problemEdit

Somehow Uyghur transliteration is skewed on Happy_New_Year#Translations (note the position of brackets) but no problem here: Uyghur: يېڭى يىل مۇبارەك (yëngi yil mubarek). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:19, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

There was a right to left mark (U+200F) in the template- please make sure I fixed it correctly. DTLHS (talk) 16:54, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Now I'm wondering if there's any context in which U+200E / U+200F in page text would be appropriate- can we just bot remove all occurrences? DTLHS (talk) 17:09, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. The ocurrence would be appropriate if a translation into a RTL language had no transliteration or other Roman letters, such as gender, qualifiers, etc. E.g. see two identical translations into Persian without transliterations: دریا, فانوس. They now appear in the right order - LTR. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Wiktionary:Todo/Pages containing LTR marks, Wiktionary:Todo/Pages containing RTL marks, if anyone wants to help clean up the ones that don't need the LTR/RTL marks. - -sche (discuss) 18:20, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Simplifying Catboiler Templates For EditorsEdit

I do a lot of category creation, and, though it's less arcane and complex now that User:CodeCat has luafied most of the infrastructure, there's still a lot of typing involved.

This is mostly unnecessary: we already have very strictly-enforced rigid constraints on the format of category names, and they generally contain most or all of the information needed in the name itself- so the modules that power the templates should be able to parse it from the page name using the modules that CodeCat has put in place (see Category:Pagename-based auto-fill-in templates for some templates that provide a substitutable front end for existing templates using such techniques).

Here are my ideas with regards to specific templates:

{{topic cat}}: For language-specific cats, the first part of the name is the language code, followed by a colon, followed by the topic name. For the non-language-specific parent categories, the page name is the topic name. See {{tcez}}, which was developed for me by User:Kc kennylau and User:Wyang. I found Wyang's version more useful and robust, so I modified it slightly to get {{tcez1}}

  • Implementation:
  1. If the name contains a colon:
    1. the language code is everything before the colon
    2. the topic name is everything after the colon
  2. If the name contains no colon, the language code is empty and the topic name is the page name
  • Problems:
  1. When the language code is "sms", the string "sms:" is converted to "sms&#58;" (apparently by the Lua string-function backend), and the colon isn't recognized.
  2. Any topic name containing a colon will cause parsing of the non-language-specific parent category to fail.

{{prefixcat}}: the first part of the page name is the canonical name of the language, followed by " words prefixed with ", followed by the suffix, followed by "-".

  • Implementation:
  1. the canonical language name is everything before " words prefixed with "
  2. the prefix is everything after " words prefixed with ", minus the "-" at the end

{{suffixcat}}: the first part of the page name is the canonical name of the language, followed by " words suffixed with -", followed by the suffix.

  • Implementation:
  1. the canonical language name is everything before " words suffixed with -"
  2. the suffix is everything after " words suffixed with -"

{{charactercat}}: the page name is always the canonical language name, followed by " terms spelled with " followed by the character.

  • Implementation:
  1. the canonical language name is everything before " terms spelled with "
  2. the character is everything after " terms spelled with "
  • Note: As far as I know, there's no way to parse the sort parameter from the page name, so those would still have to be entered by hand where necessary.

These methods can be applied to just about every template that uses Module:category tree, with one important exception (below), and quite a few others.

{{poscatboiler}}: the language-specific categories all consist of the canonical language name, followed by a space, followed by what currently goes in the template's second parameter.

This one is trickier to implement, because there's no unique delimiting text, and because of the potential for overlap between parts of language names and parts of the second parameters.

I came up with a kludgy workaround: require a single parameter consisting of the first few characters of the current second parameter. Everything before the first instance of a space + this string in the page name is the canonical language name, and the string + everything after the first instance of a space + the string in the page name is the current second parameter.

This workaround is potentially defeatable by new canonical language names that would contain a match for the string as originally entered, so it's probably best not implemented in {{poscatboiler}} itself, but in a substitutable fill-in template. I have a working proof-of-concept at {{pcbez}}, but I don't understand substitution and/or templates in general well enough to make it substitutable without a lot of clueless trial and error. Can someone do that for me?

Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 21:13, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I think it would be more workable, at least in the short term, to provide only the language code. The module can then determine that everything else must be the label. I would rather not make things too dependent on "delimiters" because my goal for the long term was to integrate {{suffixcat}} and company into {{poscatboiler}}. I believe that it's beneficial to have less templates, so that users don't have to remember which one does which. —CodeCat 21:18, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
Using the language code certainly looks like the only workable way to adapt {{poscatboiler}} itself, and may someday cause problems with converting other templates to {{poscatboiler}}, but I'm talking about the real short term here: I suspect that all the specific examples I gave here could be implemented in an hour by someone who really knows what they're doing (troubleshooting could drag that out much longer, of course). Since no one currently uses these templates without parameters, there's no problem with backwards-compatibility: you can either ignore any positional parameters, or you can use them instead of the pagename-based ones if they're present (the latter is probably better, just to be safe- see the problem with "sms:" in the {{topic cat}} section, above). Chuck Entz (talk) 22:05, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
As for the philosophical issue: it's true that the proliferation of catboiler templates was a serious problem. I'm sure someone would eventually have come up with "rfquoteoldestylecatboiler" which would render quote-request categories for earlier authors in appropriate fonts to stylistically match their era, or "trreqsundaycatboiler" for translations requested on a specific day of the week. Reducing the number of templates is a worthwhile goal, but it needs to be kept in the context of the overall demand on the editor. It's nice not to have to remember 57 different catboilers, but it's also nice not to have to have to look up the language code- especially for the <canonical language name> terms derived from <language name or language family name> categories, which often have redlinks to more obscure language-family categories. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:35, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
I've added this to {{poscatboiler}} now (see the edits I made to Module:category tree and Module:category tree/poscatboiler). If you leave out the label, it will try to extract it from the page name. If the category doesn't begin with the specified language, or if the autodetected label doesn't exist, it shows a somewhat nondescript error message, but at least the basic idea works. —CodeCat 14:12, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
Very nice! If you create a new category that has multiple redlinks in the breadcrumbs, it's now possible to copy the wikitext from the first unchanged into all the redlinked categories with just a few clicks and keystrokes. The error handling is definitely a problem, though. Perhaps you could compare the expanded language code with the beginning of the page name and give a message along the lines of "The language code XX is for the language YYYY, which doesn't match the category name".Chuck Entz (talk) 18:18, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

missing important and common wordsEdit

What kind of software solutions exist and which are we using to ensure we know which of the most common words are missing? I was very surprised to discover that, for example, news stream is completely missing in this and all other dictionaries. So Wiktionary has the chance to be the first dictionary to record one of the most important and common and descriptive words of our time. I found several lists like User:Brian0918/Hotlist and User:Robert Ullmann/Missing and User:Visviva/Tracking, but these don't seem to make any kind of frequency analysis. I don't understand what to do with the red links at the beginning of the last list. --Espoo (talk) 11:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

  • Those red links were part of Visviva's semi-automated system of generating new subpages for recent newspaper editions. No longer in use, but I come back to the existing subpages from time to time and try to complete them. I delete them when they are complete. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

"hu-conjugation of" in verb form categoryEdit

How do we change the template {{hu-conjugation of}} so that it isn't in Category:Hungarian verb forms but puts verb forms there? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. You have to put the category call inside the "includeonly" part and not inside the "noinclude" part. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:11, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
@Angr: but you should have taken a look at the list in Category:Hungarian verb forms and seen the template there. Besides, I wish {{hu-conjugation of}} got rewritten into Lua. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:16, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, I don't know why that's happening. It would be good for the template to be luacized, but that wasn't the problem you brought up. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:22, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I disagree with making {{hu-conjugation of}} add entries to the category. The category is already added by the headword template. —CodeCat 15:24, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
{{hu-conjugation of}} was created several years ago before the current categorization direction. There is no need to recreate the template in Lua. It could be replaced by {{inflection of}} applying the parameters needed for Hungarian. For example: vadászok
{{hu-conjugation of|vadászik|1|s|indic|pres|indef}} would become
{{inflection of|vadászik||1|s|indicative|pres|indefinite}}. --Panda10 (talk) 17:39, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I've added most of the grammar tags from {{hu-grammar tag}} to Module:form of/data. But there was a conflict in one case: sub is already used to mean subjunctive, so it can't also mean sublative. Furthermore, the following tags shouldn't be added to the module, so some solution for them should be found: ban, ben, 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, 1p, 2p, 3p, 4p, 5p, 6p. I'm not sure what to do with pos and nonattr. It also needs to be checked if any pages use {{hu-grammar tag}} with a tag that it doesn't recognise (in which case it's shown as-is) but which {{inflection of}} does recognise. —CodeCat 18:52, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Those parameters are used by {{hu-inflection of}}. This would be more complicated to replace (it is used in about 19,000 entries). In my above note I meant to replace only {{hu-conjugation of}} with {{inflection of}} because it is used in a little over 200 entries. --Panda10 (talk) 19:41, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
{{hu-conjugation of}} now just calls {{inflection of}}. You can replace it if you want. —CodeCat 22:34, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Is it feasible to semi-automate the creation of Hungarian verb forms? Similar to the noun forms. It is very convenient to create a noun form entry just by clicking the declension table cell. --Panda10 (talk) 22:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
The biggest limitations of WT:ACCEL are that it only works for red links, and it can only create entries for one form at a time. So when the same form is actually several distinct forms that just happen to be identical, then it doesn't work either. This is likely a problem for verbs, which have a lot more forms than nouns do and so there is more risk of one form appearing more than once in the table. In theory, the table module (it would have to be a module; it's not feasible with a template alone) could be modified to alter the acceleration tags it puts in the links, so that WT:ACCEL is told that the entry is for multiple forms. But that would make it a lot more complicated as well. —CodeCat 22:54, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Ok, it will just stay as is. However, the changes you made in the templates created a problem in the possessive forms, e.g. ablaka - the definition line contains a category name in wikilinks. It also emptied the Category:Hungarian noun forms - possessive. Can you reverse this? I appreciate your help but I really don't want more problems, it will be just too overwhelming for me to correct them. --Panda10 (talk) 00:25, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I just removed the category for now. Having a category for every single kind of inflected form is just overkill, as I have mentioned before in other discussions. —CodeCat 00:29, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


Why do the Navajo, pinyin and romaji words need to be written in those ugly and different fonts? --Biolongvistul (talk) 13:11, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

For Pinyin and Romaji, it happens when the software assumes that the word is being written in Hanzi/Kanji even though it really isn't: if I write {{l|zh|Běijīng}} it shows up as Běijīng because it assumes that everything labeled "zh" is in Hanzi, so it uses a font that's better suited to Hanzi. I would have expected {{l|zh|Běijīng|sc=Latn}} to force it to show up using the default Latin font, but it doesn't; it still shows up as Běijīng, which is annoying. (Interestingly, if I specify the language as "cmn" instead of "zh", Pinyin shows up using the default Latin font, even without being explicitly labeled "sc=Latn", so {{l|cmn|Běijīng}} shows up as Běijīng.) For Navajo, I have no idea since Navajo is only written in the Latin alphabet, so the software shouldn't be assuming anything else. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:59, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
If I remember correctly, that font was chosen for Navajo to accommodate its many diacritics, assuming that our standard fonts can't. Stephen G. Brown (talkcontribs) can shed some light. --Vahag (talk) 00:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
That is correct. Navajo uses diacritics on some letters that are spaced incorrectly in regular Roman fonts, so we use the Aboriginal Sans Serif. —Stephen (Talk) 09:57, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Confix templateEdit

There is a problem with this template where listings for the suffix don't appear in the correct alphabetical order, when there's a root word as well as a prefix. For example: repristination. Donnanz (talk) 12:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't see it, can you elaborate? —CodeCat 13:57, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
You can see it in the -ation listings, in between prioritization and privatisation. ( Donnanz (talk) 14:06, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
It looks like the module is stripping the prefix from the sort key for the prefix category and using this prefix-stripped sort key for the suffix category, too, where it should be using the whole word. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I have found a workaround for repristination by altering it to {prefix|re|pristine|lang=en} {suffix||ation|lang=en} (doubled brackets shown as single). But the problem still remains for the unwary. Donnanz (talk) 21:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Does it work if you use {{affix|en|re-|prestine|-ation}}? —CodeCat 21:36, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that works OK. Donnanz (talk) 22:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Please don't apply that workaround to lots of entries! We should fix confix rather than propagating hacks. Equinox 21:38, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Hopefully there's not a lot of entries like this. Donnanz (talk) 22:02, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
I think confix only works properly when a prefix is linked to a suffix with no word in between. Donnanz (talk) 10:03, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Can anyone fix the tagging of the "Appendix" namespace, please?Edit

See discussion here:

Thank you.—This unsigned comment was added by (talk) at 13:59 9 January 2015.

No comments?  :( —This unsigned comment was added at

Could you state exactly what you are seeking and why? Generally speaking, only parts of Appendix namespace have content that meets minimum standards IMO. Separating the wheat from the chaff will take some time if contributors are willing to undertake the task. DCDuring TALK 15:17, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
We really need a separate namespace for reconstructions. —CodeCat 15:42, 15 January 2015 (UTC)
Maybe, but the link above is to a discussion about Appendix:Japanese verbs. I rather doubt that reconstructions are tops on the list of Appendix content that linkers seek. DCDuring TALK 16:01, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Bot RequestEdit

Would someone with a bot please be so kind as to perform null edits on all the entries in Category:Pages with module errors? With over 2100 entries from a problem that was quickly fixed a day or two ago, the real module errors are very hard to spot (see błyskać for the one I know about). Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 19:47, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm running it now. It's not actually performing null edits though, just hard purges. It's faster that way. —CodeCat 21:37, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! It was fun watching the member count dropping rapidly every time I refreshed the page. I see that the problem with the Polish entries has been fixed, (the Chinese ones seem to have beenfixed earlier), and the pt-adj monstrosity has been dealt with, so we now have an empty category for the first time in what seems like a month or more. I can handle the new ones that will straggle in from the edit queue, but I gave up on these after clearing about 1,500 of them (what can I say- I'm stubborn!). Chuck Entz (talk) 22:17, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Making a bot that does null edits is very easy. If you want, I can give you some Python code that does it? You'll need the Pywikibot package. You probably don't need a bot account as null edits aren't really edits, nothing is actually changed. —CodeCat 22:19, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Template for variant spellings.Edit

I would like to create a template that creates a collapsable table, replaces input strings according to a specific key and logs every single replacement. An example: The input of the template is "a, d, e". Each of these letters has two results according to the key, the alternatives being "ä, ð, 0". I would want to log the variants "ade", "aðe", "äde", "äðe", "ad", "äd", "að", "äð" in an annotated table. Basically an automated form-table like the one that can be seen at enmity.
I tried to figure it out myself through the help pages, but they all seem to be for people who already know to some extent how it all works. For example I could find no help pages on Wiktionary on how to create a table that is collapsable.
So if anyone could give me a link to a help page with the relevant formatting data and explain to me how to include a string-replacement into a template, I'd be grateful. Korn (talk) 10:08, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
ps.: I'm aware the WT-templates page has a section giving the code to make a table collapsable. But what I meant is that if you've no prior Wiki-experience, making your baby steps here is at least a bit confusing. Korn (talk) 10:31, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly you would like to create a table for variant spellings without regard to whether they were actually attestable or sourced from a reference like the OED. That would be something we wouldn't want in entries. We already have some handmade tables like that which are not useful. The table at enmity might be useful, but the plethora of redlinks suggests that we haven't collected evidence and are relying exclusively on the OED. DCDuring TALK 11:09, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
Well, I was primarily intending to use it for IPA to translate the basic structure of a word into all the narrow transcriptions for different dialects for Middle Low German. Though, in modern Low German, 99% of words in almost all but one or two varieties are indeed not attestable, because people use German for written communication. And people use a pronunciation spelling for writing, so it could be used in that area as well.Korn (talk) 13:07, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

I triggered a spam filter?Edit

I just tried to edit my userpage with a short introduction saying who I am and that I'm an admin and CU over at en.wikibooks. It seemed to have triggered a spam filter, I think. Can someone add this to my userpage?

I am an administrator and check user at English Wikibooks. I'm not very active at English Wiktionary.

Thanks. --Xania (talk) 23:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. — Ungoliant (falai) 23:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
For future reference, I believe the filter was triggered because you had few contributions and were adding an external link; because your target was another WMF site, you could have avoided the filter by using a link of the form [[:wikibooks:User:Xania|English Wikibooks]]. Cheers, - -sche (discuss) 23:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. I had thought that a WMF URL would have been exempt but I'd forgotten that I could have used a shortcut instead.--Xania (talk) 00:12, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Module:Alternative formsEdit

In e.g. indogermanisch, the name of the "dialect" to which the alt forms belong (in this case the qualifier is not a dialect but an explanation that the alt forms are abbreviations) should be in parentheses, like it would be if the old method of formatting were used. - -sche (discuss) 01:46, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Bump. - -sche (discuss) 20:26, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
See this discussion. --Vahag (talk) 10:42, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Why are the forms listed in a different font face? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:39, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Template questionEdit


I'm new to the Mediawiki markup language. I've already read several help pages about templates.

According to m:Help:Parameter_default, {{{p|q}}} outputs "p", if "p" is defined. Otherwise "q".

I still don't get a particular syntax:

{{{a|{{{b|c}}}}}} gives c
{{{{{{a|b}}}|c}}} gives c - parameter b is undefined

Can someone explain to me, why the result is "c"? In both examples, "a" might be defined?

The assumption in the examples is that there are no defined parameters.
is interpreted as
  • is parameter a defined?
  • Yes: return the contents of parameter a.
  • No: is parameter b defined?
    • Yes: return the contents of parameter b
    • No: return the literal string "c".
is interpreted as
  • is parameter a defined?
  • Yes: return the contents of parameter a
  • No: return the literal string "b"
  • what was just returned will now be interpreted as a parameter name, being either what was in a, or "b". Assuming that there are no defined parameters, this will be "b", so...
  • is parameter b defined?
  • Yes: return the contents of parameter b
  • No: return the literal string "c"

I'm also struggeling with an expression like this one:

{{#if: {{{A|{{{B|{{{C|}}}}}}}}} | XXX | YYY }}

If I understand the syntax correctly, the output will be "XXX" if any one the three variables "A", "B" or "C" is defined. Otherwise (if none of these variables are defined) "YYY" will be the output. Is my assumption correct?

So #if has three elements: the truth statement, the return value if true, and the return value if false.
If the parameter A is defined, its contents will be returned as the truth statement. If it isn't defined, then parameter B will be evaluated. If it isn't defined, C. If that isn't defined either, then the empty string "" will be returned.
The truth value is then determined. Simply: if the return value is undefined or an empty string, then it evaluates as false, otherwise as true.
So if all of the parameters are undefined, the result of the #if statement will be "YYY". It will also be "YYY" if the contents of the first defined parameter in A, B, or C, is the empty string (that is, if it is called from an invocation like A=.) So you can force it to output a negative result, even if B and C are defined.
If you don't put a default value in an expansion, and the parameter is not defined, then the result will be the string unexpanded.
So if you have
with no parameters defined, the result will be {{{C}}}, which is, C is not defined, so the result is {{{C}}}, which is a valid string, which is what is passed back as the result. This is not an empty string, so it evaluates as true, and the result of
{{#if: {{{A|{{{B|{{{C}}}}}}}}} | XXX | YYY }}
(that is, with no default for the C parameter) will be "XXX"
Have I confused you utterly? --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 12:09, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello Catsidhe, thanks for your fast and extensive response! ;))) Thanks!
Just for clarity:
works the same way
I also learned, that a defined (but empty) parameter affects the logic flow. Until now I assumed, that empty values were input errors by user, but now I rescind that statement.
I think I've been way off with my interpretation of
{{#if: {{{A|{{{B|{{{C|}}}}}}}}} | XXX | YYY }}
I lost you at "(that is, with no default for the C parameter) will be "XXX"":
First you said, that if the variables A,B are not defined, the output will depend on the value of C. If C isn't defined either, the empty string will be returned and "YYY" will be the output.
On the other hand, you said that
will be evaluated to
and that is not an empty string, independent of whether C is defined or not. Thus "XXX" will follow.
This is the point where I am confused. Lets assume C has no default value and no value is given for C, where the template is called. Will "XXX" or "YYY" follow?
Citronas (talk) 13:27, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
Recall that {{{x|y}}} means if x is defined, return "{{{x}}}", otherwise, return "y". So look at the evaluation step-by-step:
  • "{{{A|{{{B|{{{C|}}}}}}}}}" is what we start with. Is parameter A defined?
    • Yes? Then it becomes "{{{A}}}".
    • No? Then it becomes "{{{B|{{{C|}}}}}}". Is parameter B defined?
      • Yes? Then it becomes "{{{B}}}".
      • No? Then it becomes "{{{C|}}}". Is parameter C defined?
        • Yes? Then it becomes "{{{C}}}".
        • No? Then it becomes "" (empty string).
I hope this helps. —CodeCat 13:42, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
It's more like {{{C}}} evaluates to the contents of the parameter C, if it is defined. If it is not defined, then it evaluates to the string "{{{C}}}". The {{{C|a}}} says that if C is not defined, then return the string "a". {{{C|}}} says that if C is not defined, then return the empty string. I was contrasting the behaviour of {{{C|}}} and {{{C}}}. With the alternate value of the empty string, the whole construction will return the empty string if none of the parameters are defined, and the empty string has the truth value "false". Without that pipe character, if none of the parameters are defined, it will return the string "{{{C}}}", which has the truth value "true".
{{{a|{{{b|c}}}}}} and {{{{{{a|b}}}|c}}} do not work the same. If a is defined, then the first will return the value of a. Else if b is defined it will return the value of b, else it will return the string "c". The second will first evaluate whether a is defined, and return either that value or the string "b", and then use that string (either a or "b") and see whether that is a defined parameter. If it is, it will return the contents of that parameter, otherwise it will return "c". So if the contents of a is "z", it will evaluate {{{a|b}}}, which will return "z", which then becomes {{{z|c}}}. If parameter z is defined, then that value will be returned.
--Catsidhe (verba, facta) 19:49, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
I finally got it ;) Thanks Catsidhe and CodeCat!! I wasn't aware of the difference between {{{C|}}} and {{{C}}}. I should have asked here earlier, instead of guessing for 2 weeks straight =) Citronas (talk) 10:10, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


Template:eo-head seems to be displaying noun and adjective inflections slightly differently: for adjectives, it presents them in the order "plural, accusative singular, accusative plural" (e.g., aĝa), whereas for nouns, it presents them in the order "accusative singular, plural, accusative plural" (e.g., ŝnuro). I think it is desirable to have the inflections presented in the same order for both adjectives and nouns, so I would appreciate it if someone could change Template:eo-head so that it uses the order "plural, accusative singular, accusative plural" for both parts of speech. This is the order that Template:eo-noun and Template:eo-adj both use. Thank you! —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:02, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I think that putting the accusative singular first makes more sense, because the accusative plural is derived from the nominative plural. And what happens for nouns with no plural? With the ordering you propose, you would end up with the accusative singular changing positions because the plural before it disappears. It looks neater if the plural is just taken off the end instead. Furthermore, we already put singular cases before nominative plural in the headword lines of Russian and Slovene, and probably other languages too. —CodeCat 00:07, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
That's fine with me. I just want all three templates to use the same order for both parts of speech. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:30, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
I think it's fixed now. —CodeCat 00:59, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:05, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

parameter id= has stopped working Edit

The parameter id=, used in {{m}} and {{l}} for linking to {{senseid}}-generated targets, has stopped working. See for example in the etymology of भाति (bhāti). Please fix it. --Vahag (talk) 11:25, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

It works now. id= wasn't broken, it was just being ignored for Appendix pages because we don't need to link to language sections. But we do need to be able to link to ids, so I changed that now. —CodeCat 12:37, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I see, thanks. --Vahag (talk) 15:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Category:Hungarian uncountable nouns - incorrect contentEdit

The above category is suddenly collecting suffixes, proper nouns, pronouns and noun forms. Any idea what may be the cause? Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 19:28, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

They have a noun declension template with n=sg. You need some way to distinguish between declensions of nouns and other parts of speech in the template. DTLHS (talk) 19:33, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! --Panda10 (talk) 20:04, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat: I believe this problem is coming from the new Module:hu-nominals. Is there a way to correct it? --Panda10 (talk) 20:04, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I've removed the category for now, but I'm confused what's wrong with showing proper nouns there. They are nouns after all. —CodeCat 20:44, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for the correction. The nominal inflection module is probably not the best way to do this type of categorization since we are using it for nouns, adjectives, numerals, pronouns, and even suffixes. I will add the category when needed using other methods. --Panda10 (talk) 21:01, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I used the modules from other languages as a base when making it, so there were some remnants like that. —CodeCat 21:15, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Tamil transliteration rules are incompleteEdit

In அஃகம், you can see that a couple letters (namely ஃக) aren't transliterated. I presume this should be addressed. - -sche (discuss) 20:26, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

@DerekWinters, Wyang: pls help if you can. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:17, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I think it should be "aḥkam". It's visarga () + ka (ka). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:22, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
My diff didn't work in Module:ta-translit. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:25, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

Redlinks by languageEdit

Is it possible to acquire a list of words wanted in a given language? That is, pages with a redlink encased in a template such as {{m|xyz|word}} leading to them?

As far as I can tell this is not possible within MediaWiki software, but it sounds like information extractable from a database dump perhaps. --Tropylium (talk) 14:38, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

It would be possible, but difficult. But much easier would be to find those enclosed in {{l}}, {{m}}, {{term}} as all of these have a language parameter, position 1 for {{l}} and {{m}}, lang= for {{term}}. How are your skills with regular expressions? DCDuring TALK 15:50, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
For l and m this should be OK (in Python):
r"{{(?:l|m)(?:\|.*?=.*?)*(?:\|(LANGCODE))(?:\|.*?=.*?)*(?:\|(WORD))(?:\|.*?=.*?)*}}" #gives two groups: langcode and word. 
As for term, as it can have kinda difficult expression I would first transform term's into l's or m's like this:
from r"{{term(.*?)(\|lang=(LANGCODE))(.*?)}}" into r"l|\3\1\2\4"
P.S. I think regex will have hard time working on that huge file though.
--Dixtosa (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I run a Perl script every month that extracts and counts instances taxa enclosed in {{taxlink}} (on 11K pages). It runs in less than 30 seconds, but virtually all instances are red links, so it doesn't have to compare the list of all terms enclosed in {{l}} (on 362K pages) and {{m}} (on 42K pages) with a list of all headwords, let alone a list of all entries in a given language. In addition all terms enclosed in {{taxlink}} are Translingual lemmas.
There are also templates such as {{l/es}} (223K pages) (Compare {{l|es}} (10K pages).) that enclose words from only a single language. IOW, it would be easy to generate, for example, l|es-, m|es-, and l/es- linked words in Spanish. I think they are supposed to all be lemmas. Subtracting members of Category:Spanish lemmas shouldn't be too hard. DCDuring TALK 19:47, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
I wouldn't assume that all terms linked with {{l}} and {{m}} (and l/XX templates) are lemmas. There are all sorts of times when nonlemma forms might find themselves inside those templates. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:39, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
If they mostly are, the exercise would still probably be worth it. But it would probably be worthwhile to subtract all entries in a given language, rather than just all lemmas. In any event the remaining entries would still have to be looked at one at a time for purposes of actually adding new L2 sections or new pages DCDuring TALK 22:04, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
"Take all links with a language code, subtract all existing entries" is the obvious brute force option, sure. I'm wondering more if it is possible to speed things up a bit: first acquire a list of redlinks in the main namespace, then retrieve the referring wikicode(s) for each? --Tropylium (talk) 11:12, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
We have Category:Terms having red links in their inflection table by language already, which works with various templates. Examples of such templates are Template:es-adj and Template:ast-noun. --Walled brick (talk) 11:25, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Weirdness at これは何ですかEdit

This module error wasn't here a couple of days ago, but the entry's edit history doesn't show anything since January 11, and when I look at "Templates used in this section:" for the section that has the error, none of the templates listed has any edits in the past week:

  • Template:ja-phrase last edit July 27, 2014‎ (my time zone)
  • Module:ja last edit December 24, 2014‎
  • Module:ja-headword last edit December 25, 2014‎
  • Module:languages last edit September 26, 2014‎
  • Module:languages/data2 last edit January 13, 2015

Can anyone explain where this module error came from? It looks like it materialized out of thin air. Has there been a system change that might explain this? Chuck Entz (talk) 03:47, 21 January 2015 (UTC)‎

Fixed. The function find_kana in Module:ja-headword tries to find from the arguments a pure kana parameter, and it fails to detect one if the fullstop "。" is included. Wyang (talk) 05:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! Any idea why it waited a week from the last edit before the error showed up?. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:01, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
No idea, it might be the reason these edits were needed. Wyang (talk) 08:53, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Mismatch between L2 and language declared in etymologyEdit

Is this and this, i.e. the use of a language code as the lang= parameter of {{borrowing}} or as the second parameter of {{etyl}} that doesn't correspond to the L2 header, something a bot could check for periodically? It doesn't always need to be cleaned up to the language code that corresponds to the L2; sometimes it needs to be switched to use "-", as here. - -sche (discuss) 17:58, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

@-sche: User:DTLHS/bad etymology. I have excluded Chinese from the list. DTLHS (talk) 01:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Some of the pages in the list use {{compound}} and related templates with nocat=. Those should really be excluded. —CodeCat 01:38, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Excluded. DTLHS (talk) 01:42, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! - -sche (discuss) 02:13, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I really don’t like the way {{borrowing}} works. I think it should work the same way as {{etyl}}. — Ungoliant (falai) 02:36, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
It seems that people expect {{unk.}} to work the same way as {{etyl}}, too. - -sche (discuss) 02:38, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
I wonder if {{rfe}} should have multiple parameters, for the probable language of the etymology (if you knew it was Latin) as well as the requesting entry language. DTLHS (talk) 02:45, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
  • @DTLHS: The next time this is run {{rfelite}} should also be included, though it has only about 80 transclusions so far. DCDuring TALK 02:53, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Wiktionary talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage#Technical 13Edit

Since I don't expect that page is monitored that well, I'm posting here requesting that someone take a look at my request on Wiktionary talk:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage#Technical 13. Thank you. Technical 13 (talk) 20:59, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Partial string searchEdit

Is it possible to search for partial string with regular expressions or something else? Currently, I need to find all Russian words with Cyrillic "-вств-" in them (e.g. чу́вство (čúvstvo) to fix a pronunciation rule in Module:ru-pron. I have mistakenly defined the rule with a silent first "в", as in чу́вство (čúvstvo), здра́вствуйте (zdrávstvujte) but there are cases when it's pronounced, I forgot what those words are! One example is де́вственница (dévstvennica).

I think the advanced search functionality would be useful in various case, e.g. when looking for words having the same stem or suffix, etc. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:56, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

AWB search returned 31 results.
безнравственность, Соединённое Королевство Великобритании и Северной Ирландии, королевство, Соединённое Королевство, чувствовать, почувствовать, чувствоваться, почувствоваться, здравствуйте, здравствуй, чувство, девственник, колдовство, предчувствие, девственница, кумовство, девственность, воровство, здравствовать, девственная плева, да здравствует, сочувствовать, сочувствие, нравственный, чувствительный, лукавство, нравственность, отцовство, рыболовство, самочувствие чувствительность --Panda10 (talk) 00:45, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
@Panda10: Thanks a bunch! Is that a complete list? (As it turns out, silent "v" in the beginning of the cluster is less common than pronunciation "/fstv/.) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:10, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes and it is very easy if you are on unix-like machine (for example Linux). You just download the "List of all page titles"(it is only 55MB). And run command
$ grep вств enwiktionary-20150102-all-titles
but it doesn't filter by language.
Yes this is a complete list as of 2015-01-02. --Dixtosa (talk) 08:46, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Special:Search/insource:/вств/ (warning: slow!) Keφr 09:24, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you all! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:09, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Alternative font for alternative forms?Edit

Why does {{alter}} and/or Module:Alternative forms display forms in a font different from the default font? How do we fix that? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:56, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Maybe because local sc = args["sc"] or "polytonic"? Keφr 18:06, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
So what should it say? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
Probably this. What is the actual point of {{alter}} anyway? {{l}} paired with {{qualifier}} works well enough for me. Keφr 18:42, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
I dunno, I've never used it myself. I just noticed that it looked funny when other people use it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:10, 25 January 2015 (UTC)
It still has the problem that it doesn't display the qualifier label in parentheses; see Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2015/January#Module:Alternative_forms. If it can't be fixed soon, I'm tempted to start restoring functional manual formatting in entries that use it. - -sche (discuss) 19:18, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Automating removal of Category:German lemmas categories (and presumably other languages)Edit

I've never really dabbled in the automation side of Wiktionary, so I thought I'd ask here: is it possible, using AWB or a bot, to go through the German parts-of-speech categories and remove categories like Category:German nouns/Category:German adjectives etc from pages that already has template:head or one of its descendants? The problem is that template:head automatically parses German words with special characters in order to correctly alphabetise them in dictionary order (so it puts gären between garen and garnieren). However, putting a lemma category on the page then overrides this and causes the default sort to take precendence, which puts non-ASCII characters after ASCII (which means gären gets sorted after gustieren, between gähnen and gönnen). Simply removing the category where it's unnecessary would ensure that terms including special characters get correctly sorted. I've corrected a few entries by hand (eg. [6], [7]) but it's hard to find these improperly categorised pages manually when they don't start with an umlaut.

Presumably other languages have this problem too. Category:Spanish adjectives has ñango (which is only categorised through template:es-adj) next to namibio, but ñoño (which is explicitly categorized) is sorted next to zurdo. I'm using German as an example solely because that's a language with collation rules I know fairly well. Smurrayinchester (talk) 09:39, 26 January 2015 (UTC)