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Wiktionary:Requests for verification

Wiktionary > Requests > Requests for verification

Wiktionary Request pages (edit) see also: discussions
Requests for cleanup
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Cleanup requests, questions and discussions.

Requests for verification
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Requests for verification in the form of durably-archived attestations conveying the meaning of the term in question.

Requests for deletion
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Requests for deletion of pages in the main namespace due to policy violations; also for undeletion requests.

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Requests for deletion of pages in other (not the main) namespaces, such as categories, appendices and templates.

Requests for moves, mergers and splits
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Moves, mergers and splits; requests listings, questions and discussions.

{{rfc-case}} - {{rfc-trans}} - {{rfdate}} - {{rfd-redundant}} - {{rfdef}} - {{rfe}} - {{rfex}} - {{rfap}} - {{rfp}} - {{rfphoto}} -

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

Scope of this request page:

  • In-scope: terms to be attested by providing quotations of their use
  • Out-of-scope: terms suspected to be multi-word sums of their parts such as “brown leaf”



See also:

Overview: Requests for verification is a page for requests for attestation of a term or a sense, leading to deletion of the term or a sense unless an editor proves that the disputed term or sense meets the attestation criterion as specified in Criteria for inclusion, usually by providing three citations from three durably archived sources. Requests for deletion based on the claim that the term or sense is nonidiomatic AKA sum of parts should be posted to Wiktionary:Requests for deletion.

Adding a request: To add a request for verification AKA attestation, place the template {{rfv}} or {{rfv-sense}} to the questioned entry, and then make a new nomination here. Those who would seek attestation after the term or sense is nominated will appreciate your doing at least a cursory check for such attestation before nominating it: Google Books is a good source.

Answering a request by providing an attestation: To attest a disputed term, meaning to prove that the term is actually used and satisfies the requirement of attestation as specified in inclusion criteria, do one of the following:

  • Assert that the term is in clearly widespread use.
  • Cite, on the article page, usage of the word in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning, in at least three independent instances spanning at least a year.

In any case, advise on this page that you have placed the citations on the entry page.

Closing a request: After a discussion has sat for more than a month without being "cited", or after a discussion has been "cited" for more than a week without challenge, the discussion may be closed. Closing a discussion normally consists of the following actions:

  • Deleting or removing the entry or sense (if it failed), or de-tagging it (if it passed). In either case, the edit summary or deletion summary should indicate what is happening.
  • Adding a comment to the discussion here with either RFV failed or RFV passed, indicating what action was taken.
  • Striking out the discussion header.

(Note: The above is typical. However, in many cases, the disposition is more complicated than simply "RFV failed" or "RFV passed".)

Archiving a request: At least a week after a request has been closed, if no one has objected to its disposition, the request may be archived to the entry's talk-page or to WT:RFVA. This consists of removing the discussion from this page, and copying it to the entry's talk-page (using {{rfv-passed}}, {{rfv-failed}}, or {{rfv-archived}}). Historically, it could also include simply commenting on the talk page with a link to the diff of the edit that removed the discussion from this page. Examples of discussions archived at talk pages: Talk:impromptu, Talk:baggs.

Oldest tagged RFVs

November 2013Edit


Rfv-sense for definition "water that does not recede and cannot be diverted". Purportedly given in the Kangxi Dictionary (1716), the definition isn't in the Unihan database (which, in itself, isn't a problem) and almost seems to contradict one or more of the definitions given at (Han Dian dictionary site). It'd be nice to have someone native or near-native in reading Chinese have a look at this definition to see if it's valid. Bumm13 (talk) 22:01, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm certainly not near-native in reading Chinese, but it looks like this definition is indeed in the Kangxi dictionary: "水不通不可别流" [1]. Mr. Granger (talk) 23:23, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
The Kangxi dictionary cites the very old Yupian dictionary, which gives the same definition. Mr. Granger (talk) 23:48, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
Okay, after working with several sources and translation tools, I finally was able to parse the "cannot be diverted" part (不可别流). The "that does not recede" definition seems a bit odd to me, as the literal translation that I'm getting for that part is "stopped" or "blocked" (不通, a compound word) rather than "recede". Bumm13 (talk) 01:29, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
That's true in modern Chinese, but in classical Chinese, words are generally monosyllabic, so my guess would be that it should be parsed as two words: 不=not, 通=pass through. (But again, I'm no expert - we need someone who can read classical Chinese.) Mr. Granger (talk) 02:43, 5 November 2013 (UTC)
[2]: KangXi ZiDian:
(Balancing between literal translation and meaning translation) --kc_kennylau (talk) 10:08, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
FWIW, Wyang has commented on his talk page that "the sense is easily attested". Whether the current wording is a sufficiently fluent wording is another question... - -sche (discuss) 02:28, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
It would be helpful if someone could provide an example of how this is used.
Is a pond a "坉"? It has nowhere to recede or be diverted to, assuming it is rain-fed rather than fed by a river.
If a river floods and the water doesn't seem likely to recede for several days, and the town has to be evacuated, are the floodwaters "坉" until they do recede?
- -sche (discuss) 06:38, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


There are no citations and the usage examples are in the plural only. If we are going to have a singular entry for what is in most folks' current English a plural-only noun, we should have citations for each sense in the singular. I suspect that usage in speech is minimal, mostly something like "What is a shenanigan anyway?" DCDuring TALK 05:48, 11 November 2013 (UTC)

The entry "shenanigans has one sense less than "shenanigan". The only translation table provided for "shenanigans" is for the non-existent sense, i.e. the one that is provided in singular only. Somebody's fingers have been faster than his brain. --Hekaheka (talk) 06:02, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
The translation table was "borrowed" without modification from the shenanigan entry, along with just about everything else- even interwikis. Just about the only thing they didn't copy was the missing sense. Not all that great a job- they managed to add an "s" to all the instances of shenanigan, but that was about it. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:34, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
SpinningSpark 14:55, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Which of these support which of the three definitions? Two of the definitions would seem to be worded as uncountable ("trickery" and "play"). The citations all fit a definition like "trick". None support the other senses. It is only the other senses that I am familiar with and only in the plural. DCDuring TALK 16:46, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Whenever I read the singular form I feel that the author is playing with the word, ie, that it is a "literary"-type use. I don't think I have ever heard it used in the singular in my life. I'm not entirely alone: at COCA the plural outnumbers the singular 28 to 1; at BNC the count is 36 to 0. But looking at COHA it seems that use of the singular preceded use in the plural and has continued into the present. DCDuring TALK 16:47, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
I have converted the RfV of all three senses to an RfV of the singular of the two senses that I know only in the plural. It would be nice to see the citations supporting the singular sense actually where they belong, in the entry, under the definition they support. DCDuring TALK 17:01, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Assuming that the citations above support the one sense that no rfv-sense tag was applied to, I've let it stay, while replacing the other senses with a soft direction to the plural. - -sche (discuss) 06:47, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Good enough. DCDuring TALK 23:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
BTW, we show shenanigans as plural only, which it apparently isn't. It is sometimes uncountable. It seems to always take a plural verb. DCDuring TALK 00:02, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

December 2013Edit

of Koranic proportionsEdit

Header was: of quranic proportions

Zero hits in Books or Groups, one cite in the entry is clearly a one-off play on "of bliblical proportions", while the other has "of epic, Biblical and Quranic proportions", and neither meets CFI. However nice it might be to have matching sets of everything on Wiktionary for every religion, the truth is that some figures of speech are only associated with one or two of them, and CFI goes by usage, not by some equal time/space rule. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:09, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Like i said on my talk page, Arabic transliterations are difficult to work with because of the large amount of transliterations. The word Quran is especially difficult since it has about half a dozen transliterations. but i have added some citations despite transliteration differences. I think its fine as it is. Pass a Method (talk) 16:44, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
The citations look good to me. Maybe the page should be moved to of Koranic proportions, since that seems to be the spelling that's attested. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:40, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
No. let's keep it as it is. If you look at the Google Ngram stats, the most common transliterations tend to change and it is different for each topic. Pass a Method (talk) 18:00, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't think "Koranic" should count toward attestation of "Quranic". --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:05, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
I do; it's the same word just a different spelling. I admit it's a tricky one and I don't think there's a policy on it. It's an excellent example of whether WT:CFI just doesn't mention it. Mglovesfun (talk) 18:16, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Sidestepping that issue, all of the citations that seem durable use Koranic, so the entry should be moved. And the definition should be trimmed, since it does seem to be just a rare variation/play on of Biblical proportions. - -sche (discuss) 19:11, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
If this passes, I'm RFDing it as SOP. --WikiTiki89 19:29, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
Debatable, one citation is "of Biblical and Koranic proportions" which could be considered neither one idiom nor the other but a separate one, and two of the citations are by the same author in the same year. Counting them as one citation gets us down to two citations, which isn't enough. How about Usenet? Mglovesfun (talk) 17:10, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
What are we going to do about this? The Borman and Pendleton cites are good, but the 1989 one uses “of Biblical or Koranic proportions”. Should it count? — Ungoliant (falai) 00:07, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
If you're referring merely to the phrasing of it, ehhh, I guess phrasing like that is OK. Compare the citations mentioned below, in re pecker mill, which speak of "pecker, cog, and water mills".
However, I'm not convinced that the citation is using an idiomatic sense, as opposed to straightforwardly observing that near-simultaneous epidemics, wars and famines constitute plagues on the scale of those seen in the Bible and Quran, where various nations are described as being plagued with epidemics, wars and famines. - -sche (discuss) 07:01, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Passed, although I think that if this was any sort of idiomatic expression, we wouldn't be arguing over whether a sort-of-close usage should count as a usage for CFI. bd2412 T 13:26, 4 September 2014 (UTC)


On 15 June 2008 a certain user added a huge number of given names by (one might guess) searching the given names dictionary in WWWJDIC with the keyword "実", unless this user happens to know a huge number of names which all just happen to contain the same character and half of which are impossible to verify. This is one of those which gets under 1000 hits, all of which are online dictionaries, "name recipe" websites, or otherwise dubious sources. I've checked all the "Yumiko"s and these appear bogus:

Haplogy () 01:30, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Delete all. It is all right if we have ゆみこ. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 06:06, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. None of the names listed seems to come with enough instances we can verify. Assuming three citations are needed for including given names, I agree with deleting the listed entries - non-existing or extremely rare names as far as I can see. I found zero or only one reliable instance for each on the web: 生実子 (Kimiko, not Yumiko), 弓美子 (Yumiko), 諭実子 (probably Yumiko), 幸実子 (probably Yumiko). Whym (talk) 12:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Failed. bd2412 T 14:07, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

January 2014Edit


Appears unattested. google books:"gaplapper", google groups:"gaplapper", gaplapper at OneLook Dictionary Search, google books:"gaplappers", google groups:"gaplappers", gaplappers at OneLook Dictionary Search (courtesy of {{attest-search}}. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

This has been cited. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 14:44, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't think "gap-lappers" should count toward citing "gaplapper". --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:35, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

shark finEdit

Rfv-sense "To remove the fin from a shark, usually for use in cooking." The more correct form is "to fin a/the shark(s)". The gerund "shark finning" and the agent noun "shark finner" definitely exist and are not being RFVed. --WikiTiki89 06:41, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Very common pattern of noun-verb conversion. Nothing guarantees that the process will lead to shark fin#Verb. You would think that such a verb could not be used intransitively and that the object would always be a shark. Something like "The fishermen sharkfin makos when ever they find them in their nets" might exist in the wild, but "The fishermen fin makos when ever they find them in their nets" seems more likely. DCDuring TALK 13:40, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I suppose there could be uses such as "He shark fins all day," but I haven't found any. --WikiTiki89 18:50, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Found one:
    • 2008, Paul J. Mila, Fireworks, AuthorHouse, page 42:
      “Yes, perhaps long-liners or poachers illegally shark finning. []
Ungoliant (falai) 14:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I had accepted that we need to attest to the present-tense or 'infinitive' forms, I don't think that is really true. If manner adverbs, like illegally in Ungoliant's example, modify a form of shark fin or there is a true past or passive, that would seem to be sufficient evidence that it is used as a true verb. DCDuring TALK 14:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Here’s another:
    • 2009, Fredric Archer, The New Shark Troller’s Bible, page 188:
      Once again, at the end of the day, everywhere you looked you could see at least one shark finning on the surface.
This one is ambiguous; it could be a verb ( [] at least one [of them] shark finning on the surface.), referring to finners mentioned in a previous sentence, or it could be a noun ( [] at least one [instance of] shark finning on the surface.). — Ungoliant (falai) 15:03, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
    • 1919, William Merriam Rouse, Peter the Devil in The Green Book Magazine, volume 22, Story-Press Association, page 22:
      [] and the nondescript few who wandered more or less aimlessly about the fifty-mile white beach that was Manaia, shark-finning, boiling bêche-de-mer, hunting hawk's-bill turtle.
Uses a hyphen. There you go: three cites, but two with issues. I’ll leave it to whoever closes the RFV to decide whether this term is verified.
If it passes, it definitely needs to be labelled rare. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
I would still feel more comfortable if we could attest the infinite, simple present, or past tense forms. --WikiTiki89 16:26, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
The Archer cite does not seem to be the same meaning, or even the same POS. It is a subject-verb use rather than an attributive noun-verb use. The shark is displaying his fin above the water, not chopping off his own fin with his pearly whites. SpinningSpark 18:12, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
You're right, it's talking about a shark that is "finning" (fin#Verb definition #2). --WikiTiki89 18:20, 15 January 2014 (UTC)


RFV for the plural suffix (from the homographic French). Bd2412 closed the suffix's RFD discussion with "Moved to RfV" (see Talk:-x#Deletion discussion), but it was never sent here. I bring this here for that procedural reason. Regarding the suffix's attestation, I think binioux, Citations:cointreaux, Citations:maraboux, and Miniconjoux are enough to verify the independent use of -x in English. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:34, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm not so sure they're English. The first quote for binioux is instructive: "...the bagpipes or binioux as they are known in France". The writer is obviously under the impression that binioux is the correct plural in French, and is using it as a French word. Being bad at speaking French doesn't change your French into English, it's just bad French. It would be like creating an English entry for buenas días because some people who don't speak Spanish very well think día is feminine. It looks to me like most, if not all, of these quotes are of people attempting to use the French plural for a French word, but getting it wrong (except for cointreaux, which apparently is the correct plural in French- see fr:cointreaux). Chuck Entz (talk) 04:47, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
To quote myself, mut. mut., in #-oth above (my post timestamped: 01:15, 18 January 2014), "I think that use of a plural-marking suffix in contexts that would be incorrect in the source language is a sign of its morphemity — it shows that the user of the suffix is thinking ‘[-x] marks a plural’, and not just that there are a bunch of listemes where the singular happens to end in [-u] and the plural meanwhile happens to end in [-ux]." Of course, uses of cointreaux in English do nothing to establish the morphemity of -x, since that plural could simply have been borrowed directly from French (rather than having been constructed independently in English). BTW, if *buenas días is attested in English, then yes, it should have some kind of entry (compare baristo). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 15:55, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
It's kind of ambiguous. On one hand, it's productive use in English by English speakers. But on the other, those same speakers consciously intend to form a plural in a non-English way. Is it English if English speakers try to purposely apply French grammar to French words that are used in English? It's really not different from Latin or Greek plurals. —CodeCat 00:16, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


balneum is commonly a heterogenous noun and has balneae -ārum, f. as its plural (though an entirely neuter second declension usage appeared later). No source to which I have access shows legitimate singular first declension usage i.e. balneam. Endithon (talk) 18:50, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I think that if at some point the singular's declension was extended analogically to the plural, the reverse process could conceivably have happened as well. —CodeCat 18:54, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Sure, it's plausible that balneae would have back-formed a singular balnea, but is it attested? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:58, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
This seems to be well attested, but I'd appreciate it if a Latin-speaker could double check these citations:
  • 1877, Hints for Hospital Nurses, arranged by Rachel Williams, and Alice Fisher, page 168:
    Balneam tepidam. — Warm bath.
  • 1892, Ungarische Revue, page 648:
    So z. B. Rechnungsb. der Stadt Kronstadt. I. Bd. S. 253: Item pro uno vase walachali ad balneam stubam inferiorem pro lexivio []
  • 1899, Scottish Medical and Surgical Journal, volume 5, page 149:
    His orders were dictated to his clerk in sonorous Latin. "Descendat in balneam tepidam, hora somni."
- -sche (discuss) 02:15, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Assuming that the RFV requester is allowed to comment, apologies if not, I have no access to the sources quoted so just comment on them as given. The first (Williams & Fisher), being a little out of context, appears to be indirect, possibly an aid to translation of some other source/quotation? If it was a direct definition then I'd assume that it would be in the nominative (balnea tepida). The second (Ungarische Revue) contains three other words (lexivio [presumed abl.], stubam [acc.] and walachali [presumed abl.]) I cannot find in classical latin so I'd have to guess at the meaning. The third is easily understandable to a latin speaker so the medical angle might prove fruitful. Endithon (talk) 19:53, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Of course you're allowed to comment! --WikiTiki89 19:57, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Here are some more citations:
  • c. 720s, Gregory, an epistle to Serenus, quoted in 1839 in A Manual of Christian Antiquities, page 782:
    Sic homo, qui alium ardenter videre desiderat, aut sponsam amans videre conatur, si contigerit eam ad balneam aut ad ecclesiam ire, []
- -sche (discuss) 20:13, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
For more citations, peruse google books:"balneam". - -sche (discuss) 20:14, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
These citations should probably go to balnea, as they're just inflected forms of the 1st declension singular form. If we could find citations of balnea and balneae as singular forms, they would also count. They are harder to cite though because they are identical to plural forms of balneum. —CodeCat 20:18, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
What does "Aug. per." mean in balneum? Can we exp. such amb. abs., please? - -sche (discuss) 20:36, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Augustan period. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 21:03, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
  • In the case of several of the citations provided above, e.g. the 1899 "balne(V)m tepidam" cite and the 720s "ad balne(V)m aut ad ecclesiam" cite, I can find several ‘editions’ — several works quoting the same Latin texts — and some use "balneam" while others use "balneum". - -sche (discuss) 07:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
    In other words, I'm not sure it's possible to distinguish "erroneous use of [the form] balneam as a singular where balneum is the standard form" from "erroneous use of [the spelling] balneam where balneum is the standard form". I would mark this term as RFV-passed and tag it as nonstandard (placing the tag, as per usual practice, in the lemma entry, which in this case is balnea). - -sche (discuss) 17:52, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

February 2014Edit


"type of hot spicy soup commonly eaten as a street food in China."

According to Wikipedia malatang is:

  1. skewers of various ingredients cooked in hot broth, a popular street food in Beijing
  2. Sichuanese stew similar to hot pot

The questions are: 1) is it also a soup? 2) is Wikipedia correct? --Hekaheka (talk) 00:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

It has both meanings, see Nciku. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:16, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
According to your link malatang is cooked in soup (=broth, I would think) but that does not make it a soup. That would indicate that our current definition is wrong, and the two Wikipedia definitions are correct. --Hekaheka (talk) 17:31, 12 February 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense # 2: "bottom, downside". None of the dictionaries in Outlook seem to have this as separate sense. Should it be merged with the 3rd sense "butt, buttocks" (which every Outlook dictionary has)? --Hekaheka (talk) 18:42, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

This might be hard to verify given all the other senses of behind, though searching for it on the BYU corpora or on Google with a variety of determiners might help. It might be a job for the OED.
BTW, I don't recognize sense 1 either. DCDuring TALK 20:12, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Sense 1: now that you say it, right. --Hekaheka (talk) 03:34, 16 February 2014 (UTC)
I've put some citations on the citations page, but these could be taken as sense #1. Sense #2 is still dubious, I think. SpinningSpark 16:14, 17 February 2014 (UTC)
The "microscope" citation supports sense 1. The other two seem as much metaphor uses for sense 3 as anything else, but we often seem to enshrine metaphors as distinct definitions. But in any event they would seem to support sense 1 rather than sense 2. DCDuring TALK 17:10, 17 February 2014 (UTC)


The math sense. Note that google:"antirational field" and google:"antirational" turn up nothing relevant. I therefore suspect that this is not a term used in math but a word invented for the context (see the quotation in the entry) and not used anywhere else.​—msh210 (talk) 15:55, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to RFV a sense that has no definition. I think it should be speedied. --WikiTiki89 17:06, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
A definition can be found in the sole attesting quotation. This should not be speedied. Even if there were no definition, a RFV would still be meaningful, asking this question: are there CFI-enough CFI-fit quotations for a technical mathematical sense of "antirational"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:42, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Actually when I made that comment I didn't realize there was already one citation. --WikiTiki89 18:45, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
There's another cite (snippet only for me), but note that the definition is different from the one in the cite in the entry! I'm guessing this one, too, was used ad hoc.​—msh210 (talk) 23:02, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I think it might not be independent from the other citation, either. The citation currently in the entry is attributed to Masayoshi Nagata, and the book you just linked to says "Our definition differs slightly from the one given by Nagata [11]." —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:38, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
@Mr. Granger: I don't think that necessarily disqualifies it from being independent (if the authors were not actually collaborating on it, which is most likely not the case since the definitions are different). Everyone who uses a word has to have read or heard it somewhere and by your logic, that would every word in every language unciteable. However, since the definitions are different, we can't count them together for three citations anyway. --WikiTiki89 06:18, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I've added three cites to the citation page. They are clearly the same sense; at least two of the authors give a citation to Nagata. I think the citation found by msh210 is also valid; slight differences in definitions do occur with mathematics authors but this is clearly much the same concept and should be counted as the same sense as far as dictionary entries go. It is rather similar to the inconsistency over whether zero is included in \scriptstyle \mathbb N. SpinningSpark 20:16, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
  • Personally, I think there is something ridiculous about trying to include advanced mathematical terms here. If they really need TeX-work to be properly readable (I just added a bunch of nowrap's to the in-article quotation) they should probably be a WP article and then just a vague definition here with a link. If no one can bother to write a WP article on the topic or put it to use, it's probably not really worth having here.
  • I have no idea how to interpret CFI "independence" in the mathematical context.
  • I'm not, for example, going to add the mathematical notions of "mouse", nor associated terms "premouse", "real mouse", "weasel", and so on. And Spark is correct, minor variations in mathematical terminology is entirely normal. The idea of splitting Wiktionary senses down to mathematically distinct senses is absolutely ludicrous. We have four mathematical senses of curve, which is frankly three senses too many, but if you believe in splitting based on exact mathematical definitions, then there should probably be about 100 distinct senses listed. graph correctly has two mathematical senses, but it too can probably support 100 distinct senses.
  • The basic source of confusion on this point is that "definition" in mathematics is a technical term with a very precise meaning, but it is not the same as "definition" in lexicography. See my earlier comments on Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion#group_action. Choor monster (talk) 20:48, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Failed; removed.​—msh210 (talk) 19:38, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

How has that failed when three cites have been provided? SpinningSpark 05:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
You might not like it, and you might still think it should be deleted, but you can't possibly say that it has failed verification. SpinningSpark 14:57, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
He may have neglected to look at the citations page, or was just being picky about the spelling. I also found this which can be added as a third citation of the hyphenated spelling and then the entry can be recreated at anti-rational. --WikiTiki89 15:12, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I'ver restored the entry. We can speculate forever over what msh210 does not like about the cites. They really need to place a rationale here so that we have the opportunity of finding better cites, it is pointless trying to double guess. It strikes me as more a case of "I don't like it" than an actual failure to verify. SpinningSpark 17:39, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I reverted you. Out of only five citations that we have gathered, three are hyphenated. So if you want to recreate, do so at the hyphenated entry. --WikiTiki89 17:53, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
  • The two snippet citations, one from Mathematics of the USSR: Izvestija, one from Chinese Journal of Mathematics citation are close to useless. It is totally unclear what is going on. Are these papers, for example, just summarizing something of Nagata, or contributing a footnote, so to speak, or are they actually something independent? I can't doublecheck the articles, since I have no clue who the authors are or what the titles are. I can't physically browse them either, since today's modern libraries have 99% of their journals in storage somewhere. Choor monster (talk) 18:35, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
    • I haven't checked, but a little thinking revealed that the second snippet is from the following paper: MR0732868 (85j:12009) Kang, Ming Chang ; Roan, Shi-Shyr . A note on cancellation problem. Chinese J. Math. 11 (1983), no. 4, 61--67. According to MR, it's a new proof of the 1967 theorem of Nagata, so the odds are high they are repeating Nagata with some variation. Whether this is "independent" by our standards, I have no idea. (Curiously enough, Nagata has a paper in the same journal, same year, but it is obviously not the snippet.)
    • For the record, Nagata introduced the term (with a hyphen) in this 1967 paper, free download. Choor monster (talk) 19:52, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
    • And I have now found the first snippet: MR0439970 (55 #12851) Vlèduc, S. G. The coefficient ring in a semigroup ring. (Russian) Izv. Akad. Nauk SSSR Ser. Mat. 40 (1976), no. 5, 955–968, 1199. English translation: Math. USSR-Izv. 10 (1976), no. 5, 899–911. This paper definitely seems to be independent of Nagata, the reference was apparently provided as a courtesy. Choor monster (talk) 12:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

March 2014Edit


German interaction meaning guten Morgen (good morning). Google Books does show quite a few hits for "morgn" as a contracted form of morgen/Morgen, however I can't find many hits where it's used specifically as an interjection. Also I'm not sure if we (should) include such forms which simply reflect contractions in spoken language... Longtrend (talk) 12:23, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

It wouldn't even be pronounced differently from morgen (which is pronounced [ˈmɔʁɡŋ̩] or [ˈmɔɐ̯ɡŋ̩] in colloquial speech); it's pure eye dialect. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:41, 29 March 2014 (UTC)
See RFD discussion for Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion#daughterin'. It seems that we have nothing against eye dialect. --Hekaheka (talk) 19:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
Failed. POS changed to noun and definition replaced with {{eye dialect of|Morgen|lang=de}}. — Ungoliant (falai) 19:18, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
But if it's a noun, it would have to be capitalized in German. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:41, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
I've switched it to "adverb". Many uses predate the standardization of German orthography, which makes me question if "eye dialect" is the best label. How about this? - -sche (discuss) 19:53, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

April 2014Edit


I don't think so. SemperBlotto (talk) 09:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Not English, no. But someone who speaks Dutch might have a better idea. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 09:32, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
I've had a stab, but someone who actually knows Dutch should definitely clean it up. A lot. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 09:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
@CodeCat:, can you shed any light on this word? Is the definition accurate? - -sche (discuss) 02:59, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
A Dutch spelling of lock and load, maybe? Chuck Entz (talk) 05:38, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
No, I'm pretty sure it's "Cloth-lead", being a cast or pressed lead seal with marks to show quality and origin of bolts of cloth. One of the quotes I found mentioned "staalloden" as well. See also for examples of the object, and this bachelors thesis (in Dutch) on the subject. On further investigation, "Cloth Seal" might be a better translation, but that would still need an explanation for what a "Cloth Seal" actually is.
unless you're joking. I can't always tell. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 06:41, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with this word in Dutch, but it does indeed transparently mean "sheet lead". So it may well exist. Judging by w:nl:Lakenlood, the definition is accurate. Personally, my first guess was that this was some kind of weight added to the end of a tablecloth or similar, to weigh it down and keep it from blowing around in the wind or something. I've seen things like that before. —CodeCat 08:27, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
Looks ok to me. Added some more citations. -- Curious (talk) 21:29, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


RFV for the sense "newspaper" of the Latin ephēmeris. That sense isn't listed in Lewis & Short. Gaffiot has the sense "mémorial journalier", which translates to "daily memorial", which I don't fully understand, but which I interpret to mean "diary"; in any case, I'm pretty sure it doesn't support the "newspaper" sense. Niermeyer doesn't have an entry for ephēmeris. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 17:28, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Cited by Mr. Granger (talkcontribs). — Ungoliant (falai) 14:15, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Whilst I laud Mr. Granger's addition of that citation, in it he chose to translate ephemeridem with "journal", not "newspaper", and, given w:La Civiltà Cattolica, he was right to do so. I'm afraid that the challenged sense remains uncited. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 01:57, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not quite sure what sense my citation belongs under, actually. La Civiltà Cattolica is not exactly a newspaper (sense 2), but it's certainly not a diary (sense 1) either. Maybe the "newspaper" sense should be changed to "periodical" to accommodate the citation. (Incidentally, I don't want to take undue credit - the translation isn't mine, but rather comes from the book itself.) —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 02:04, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
@Mr. Granger: I've moved your citation under the new sense "a journal, periodical" and elaborated its bibliographical information to better indicate where the original text and its translation come from ([6]). I haven't merged the disputed sense into the new sense, because I believe they are too dissimilar to be treated as one sense. Be that as it may, I note that there is a logical development of senses: day-book → newspaper → periodical. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 19:01, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I just happened upon Ephemeris: Nuntii Latini universi [Ephemeris: Latin news of the whole world], the website of an on-line Latin-language newspaper founded by Stanisław Tekieli in June 2004. The date line ("Saturni die 24 mensis Maii 2014"; Anglice: "on Saturday the 24th of the month of May [in] 2014") suggests that it is a daily newspaper. If that is the case, then the use of ephēmeris (deriving as it does from the Ancient Greek ἐφήμερος (ephḗmeros, daily)) to mean "a daily newspaper" is a semantic development parallel with the English word daily, which the OED (2nd ed., 1989) records (under “daily, a. (n.)” B.1) in the sense "A daily newspaper." (with nine supporting quotations, 1823–1965). However, in this use it would appear that Ephemeris is a proper noun, being the name of one specific newspaper, rather than a common noun, being used to mean "a (daily) newspaper" generally. @Mr. Granger, Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV: What do you make of this evidence? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 18:04, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Is this newspaper also published in paper? If not, I’d discount this use an non-durable. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:11, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
I doubt it. However, it has almost certainly been discussed by name in Contemporary Latin publications which themselves are durably archived, as it already has been in an English context. What I'm wondering is, would such citations count toward attesting the sense of ephēmeris currently being challenged, or would they be taken as supporting the Latin proper noun Ephēmeris, or as citing both? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 01:15, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
I lean towards excluding it. If I remember correctly, we’ve had an English RFV where the name of a band was not considered a valid cite. — Ungoliant (falai) 23:25, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
small note: journal#Old_French a daily. Also, we may want to accept that digital media are now the standard for publication. Paper, if it happens, is secondary and ephemeral. - Amgine/ t·e 06:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Often part of the point of a paper copy of a normally digital work is its non-ephemerality. Digital papers tend to have a serious problem with being ephemeral in my experience; Geocities is virtually all archived away, but newspapers try to keep everything behind a paywall and be the sole source of their text. The theoretical standard behind our citation rules is that we be able to reference our cites in the foreseeable future; a sold PDF is probably hard to get ahold of for the random person, but there's no guarantee at all that anyone will have a copy of the article that we cited.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:22, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
The modern equivalent is a dvd/cd annual, occasionally a 'perk' for members or subscribers. Thank goodness that tradition is also dying rapidly. Visit or any of the many other aggregators whose purpose is to present a record of publicly published content. But keep in mind that owning the paper copy is a hurdle to your concept of accessible durability, just as paying for access is a hurdle for paywalled content. Most of the world cannot access the OED, online or off. But this is probably not the best location for this discussion. - Amgine/ t·e 16:42, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
I know about; that's why I pointed out that newspapers try to keep everything behind a paywall and be the sole source of their text.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)


Is this really an adjective? allotted at OneLook Dictionary Search shows that many dictionaries make allotted in effect redirect to allot. AFAICT only WordNet shows it as an adjective, "assigned as a task" her allotted chores, but this seems to transfer meaning from the word modified to the modifier. Consider his allotted share of the garden. DCDuring TALK 20:38, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think this is well suited for RFV. I would like to see a precedent of deleting adjective sections from past participles via RFV or a Beer parlour discussion supporting such deletion via RFV. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:09, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
It is perfectly well suited for a fact-based discussion. Either the word is attestably used as an adjective or it is not. The question of whether a term is an adjective is fairly clear cut and reasonable quickly resolved by resort to the facts of usage. The role of lawyerly argumentation is useful in evaluating the attestation evidence or in challenging the authority behind the criteria used. DCDuring TALK 11:23, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
There are no purely attestation-based criteria necessary for adjectivity. An adjective does not need to be comparable and does not need to be modifiable by "very" and the like. RFD is not forbidden from being "fact-based". All criteria listed at Wiktionary:English adjectives are merely hints; none of the criteria is alone necessary and the criteria are not jointly necessary. If Wiktionary:English adjectives were applied to "allotted", google books:"become allotted" would suggest this to be adjective; nonetheless, I do not take Wiktionary:English adjectives very seriously. In any case, this does not fit my idea of proper use of RFV, which should IMHO above all be used to find whether a term or a sense are actually used to convey meaning. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:29, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
You seem to ignore our non-legislated practice of requiring that an English adjective be comparable/gradable OR be used as a predicate OR have a sense distinct from the sense of the noun or verb form from which a separate identity is to be established. The predicate case is that hardest to apply for adjectives that are alleged to be conversions of past participles, because it often requires a high level of sensitivity to the language to reliably distinguish passive use of the past participle from predicate use of an adjective. This is the kind of thing that interpretation of actual evidence rather than armchair introspection and gum-flapping (let alone legislating) is well suited to resolving. DCDuring TALK 15:46, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, the putative practice you speak of is a non-legislated practice, meaning it is, if it exists, not a result of a vote or a Beer parlour discussion. Now, any evidence of this being a common practice? Do you know of past RFV outcomes that fit this putative practice? How many are they? For the record, I oppose the use of RFV for this. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:12, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, of course it can be an adjective, but I'm rather dubious about the comparative and superlative shown in the entry. Donnanz (talk) 10:21, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    Why of course? It can be used attributively, but so can nouns and ing-forms and ed-forms of verbs.
    1. Can it be shown to be gradable or comparative?
    2. Can it be used after become or seem?
    3. Is it ever unambiguously used as a predicate, ie, following a form of be with semantics clearly distinguished from a past participle used to form a passive?
    4. Does it have a sense that is not present in the ed-form of the verb?
    If it doesn't meet at least one of these tests we do not show it as an adjective. DCDuring TALK 11:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    All those hurdles? I'm virtually gobsmacked. Donnanz (talk) 11:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    If it doesn't meet at least one of these tests we do not show it as an adjective.
    I share your skepticism about comparability, but can it be used with very or too (gradability)? I don't think so. I've never run into usage that meets any of the other tests either, but there might be such usage. DCDuring TALK 13:45, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
    1. The allotted tasks are less challenging than the other job expectations; the latter have no specific time set aside for their accomplishment.
    2. My days seem allotted either as a series of disasters and bad news, or boring montages of the same-ol'.
    3. Each is allotted a colour according to its priority. - Amgine/ t·e 06:45, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
    @Amgine: The first is attributive use of a past participle. (Would attested usage of "the circumnavigated globe" make circumnavigated an adjective?) The third is clearly a use of the verb in the passive. (Consider Each is allotted a color by rule of priority., which makes the agent explicit.) The second is the sole telling example. It could be argued that it is an ellipsis of the passive, but I think not. Three citations of such usage for each of the two senses would settle the matter. DCDuring TALK 13:13, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
  • There is enough sourcing on "This film has been modified from its original version to run in the allotted time" alone to support this as an adjective. Something can be an adjective while not taking comparatives or superlatives Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 14:36, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Your reason would imply that cicumnavigated should be considered an adjective, given usage such as:
  • 1965, G. B. Sansom, The Western World and Japan:
    Not many years after the discovery of the Americas and the opening of the Cape route to India, Christian missionaries were making their way to almost every part of the now circumnavigated globe
There is a clear path to justifying treating this as an adjective: that it attestably meet at least ONE of the tests of adjectivity, such as those listed above (There may be more.). There is no amount of attributive use alone that would compel treatment of this as an adjective. DCDuring TALK 15:31, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
While I don't have an opinion on the rest, wouldn't the modifying element be now circumnavigated in that quote? - Amgine/ t·e 18:28, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
@Amgine: Yes, but circumnavigated is the head of the modifying phrase. I searched for "now circumnavigated" to reduce the portion of the ocean that I had to boil to find relevant citations. DCDuring TALK 18:43, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, as a sailor, I would certainly consider a circumnavigated globe as qualitatively different from an uncircumnavigated one, in a comparable way an explored region differs from an unexplored one, a painted versus an unpainted canvas. In a related manner, an allotted hour or day is different from one unallotted. And that's entirely apart from parliamentary usage (throughout the commonwealth), the standard euphemisms allotted span, allotted hours, or allotted days to indicate length of life (or 70 years, whichever comes first?), and of course Google Books—whether religious, poetic, or otherwise. On another hand, your position that allotted is not adjectival is disputed by OED, Merriam-Webster, Cambridge... just wondering which authority is the basis for your position? - Amgine/ t·e 20:43, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
It appears there is enough sourcing to support allotted as an adjective. User:DCDuring, why do you fight words ending in -ed and -ing being defined as adjectives when they're clearly attestable as such? Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 16:47, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
@Purplebackpack89: To avoid the need to maintain English entries that convey no semantic information. All English nouns can be used attributively; all English past participles and -ing forms can be used in a variety of predictable ways. Perhaps you would enjoy adding complete adjective PoS sections to all (I do mean ALL) English noun entries, -ing-forms and past participles and complete noun sections to all -ing-form entries. In principle, each sense of the lemma form of a verb should have an appropriately reworded corresponding sense in the adjective section located on the same page as the section for the past participle and the -ing-form. Mutatis mutandis for nouns. DCDuring TALK 18:22, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Just because it can be done doesn't mean it has to be done only by me, or immediately. What we just do is end the ridiculous deletion of -ed and -ing adjectives, and create more as needed. Furthermore, it doesn't have to be ALL, because, in practice, not all are used frequently enough to be attributable. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 15:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


Sense "(poetic) virginity, chastity." Sure. I'm putting it on my list of I wouldn't know where to start looking and I don't have a clue how it would be used if it is really used. Cites, please.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:24, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Out of all 6 pages of Google Books results for "her thyme" -herb -garlic -cottonwood, these are the only results that look plausible to me: [7] [8] [9]. More context for the third result can be seen here. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 23:10, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
The cites might fit a definition like "fertility or sexuality". I don't see "chastity". DCDuring TALK 00:53, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
The problem is that it's hard to draw the line between symbolism and lexical meaning, and harder still to pin down the meaning of metaphorical speech- but a line has to be drawn. There are lots of poems that refer to beautiful women as roses, and also refer to the "thorns" encountered when they're "plucked" . That doesn't mean we should have senses at rose, thorn or pluck that capture this usage.
To put it another way: the plant known as thyme may symbolize virginity and chastity, but the term "thyme" doesn't necessarily mean "virginity and chastity" as a word. The former is the realm of an encyclopedia, the latter the realm of a dictionary. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:02, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Poetry provides the poorest attestation for contemporary English, ambiguity, allusion, metaphor, and prosody often confusing matters enormously. Also IMO metaphors are often given too much weight in our RfVs. The distinction between "live" metaphors and "dead" ones is worth keeping in mind, even though it is sometimes hard to distinguish between "live" and "dead".
I'm not exactly sure how to handle the symbolic meanings of colors and natural things, as, for example, seems to have been common in the Middle Ages, possibly especially in Christendom. DCDuring TALK 15:55, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I based this entry on the old Irish song "A Bunch of Thyme". There is a very detailed analysis of this song at which clearly states its use as a euphamism for virginity and/or purity.--Dmol (talk) 09:25, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

@Dmol: Interesting article, but some of the other actual usage doesn't seem to me to quite fit "virginity".
Also, the song is in English. Is it an adaptation of an older Irish song? Did "thyme" have some specific association with virginity in Irish culture? DCDuring TALK 14:31, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
The article actually says: "Thyme represents the girl’s purity and consequently it represents her hopes and prospects for future happiness." This is metaphor, not a meaning of the word. Dbfirs 13:09, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Is it lexical information to include as a definition the symbolic meaning of the thing represented by a word (and its synonyms), ie, a synset? Would only an entry be merited only for the language(s) of the culture(s) in which the symbolic meaning existed, at least at one time.
I would think that only when the symbolic meaning has somehow transferred from the referent itself to one or more of the synset would a definition be warranted. So if blue were at one time a symbol of sadness, at some time the meaning transferred to the word, which now has the sense "sad". I certainly doubt that thyme ever remotely approached that kind of meaning transfer. Note also that near-synonyms for the color blue are not near synonyms for sad. DCDuring TALK 13:44, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

I've added two quotes from traditional songs, one from the 17th century and another later one from (i think) the 19th. I also added two references, one as discussed above and another I found. There is another website, , that makes the same connection and give the original Irish language lyrics. I also changed the definition to say that it is "an allegory..." which seems more accurate. --Dmol (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: adjective meaning nothing or zero. I'm not quite sure what the author is referring to here. I have found a cite for "since supposedly there are zilch feelings involved". Is this adjectival? Renard Migrant (talk) 12:04, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the part of speech in your example should be determiner, but it seems to be mostly a noun. We seem to be all over the map in our treatment of this and synonyms such as bupkis, nada, nil, nothing and zip. I also think we're missing the humorous and emphatic overtones to the term in our treatment. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:00, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
The French Wiktionary has a head 'adjectif numéral' for cardinal numbers like 'one, two, three' which can describe a noun. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:13, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

özçekmiş, teinipeili and meitsieEdit

Tagged for deletion by an IP with the comment: "There isn't that word at Turkish commonly. It is a prefabrice."

Nothing on Books or on Groups. Regular Google search turns 51 hits, many tracing back to us: not hot- not even lukewarm ... Chuck Entz (talk) 22:06, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

What about Finnish teinipeili and meitsie? Can you find the results on books or on groups? -- 05:32, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Teinipeili (lit. "teen mirror") has been around for years and finding three quotes in newspapers would be a piece of cake. First internet appearances of meitsie seem to be from January this year, and thus it does not fulfil our "spanning over one year" -criteria.--Hekaheka (talk) 17:53, 29 April 2014 (UTC)
Turkish word 'sanalgı' has been around for years and you may find three quotes in newspapers [10] but it was deleted. Is it not same with 'teinipeili'?--12:46, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
If they were actually nominated, someone might check. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:45, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
selfie is selfie at Turkish too. Also "take a sefie" is "selfie çekmek". Selfie did become news at online newspapers. When searching at google, you will see "selfie akımı" and "selfie çılgınlığı" ... özçekmiş isn't truth.-- 23:42, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Can someone add teinipeili citations to the entry? — Ungoliant (falai) 23:32, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

May 2014Edit

shutter shadesEdit

I am only disputing the characterization of this as solely a plural noun. - Amgine/ t·e 05:03, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Neither of those represent a singular form of the sunglasses sense that's currently in the entry, and so they do not call its status as plural-only into question. If either example turned out to be attestable, the definitions would belong at "shutter shade," not "shutter shades." This is a matter for WT:REE, not RFV. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 16:28, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
See shades for an example. It looks to me like shutter shade might be SOP, though. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:25, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
The photographic equipment is fairly specific, rather than SOP, as it does not describe its actual purpose (film 'shading'.) The awning use I have no clews about. Obviously either might be used as a plural, while the sunglasses sense would not (thus my contesting the plural only for the term, not {{rfv-sense}}.) - Amgine/ t·e 20:09, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
@Amgine: "the sunglasses sense would not" "be used as a plural".
Of course it can. In this regard it inherits the properties of glasses (eyeglasses, spectacles).
One can say "These glasses are cool" referring either to a single pair of eyeglasses or, say, all those in a display case.
Did you mean something other than my interpretation of what you said? DCDuring TALK 20:38, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
If you look at shades, you'll see there's a plural-only sense and a plural-of sense. As Cloudcuckoolander was saying, you just need to add the plural-of sense to make it parallel to that entry, which wouldn't require doing anything to the existing sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:59, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
I've removed the RFV tag since this was, as noted, not an RFV matter. If you create [[shutter shade]] you can restore this version of the page and voila... - -sche (discuss) 21:37, 15 June 2014 (UTC)


Created by our well-known and prolific creator of garbage Japanese entries, but just plausible enough not to delete on sight.

Although the Japanese Wikipedia uses this name in its article on w:Amphitrite, I can find only one hit in Google Books and none in Google Groups. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:39, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I should also mention that Japanese Wikipedia spells the asteroid differently, so the second sense is almost definitely wrong. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:41, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
I think we could convert アムピトリーテー into an "alternative form" entry linked to アンフィトリテ which is definitely a more commonly used form and is attestable. Japanese Wikipedia uses a transliteration scheme of Ancient Greek that is supposedly more faithful, but it does not necessarily reflect actual uses in Japanese we can observe. Whym (talk) 14:50, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
The form アムピトリーテー itself does seem to be accepted by some researchers, at least as an alternative form, if not in wider use: [11] (p. 10) , [12] (p. 4) Whym (talk) 15:10, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Converted to alternative form of アンフィトリテ per Whym’s suggestion. Can someone add the citations in his link? — Ungoliant (falai) 00:49, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


I couldn't confirm the existence of this word in Japanese. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:49, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I found a couple of works related to Shinto and Japanese mythology that use 隱身 in Japanese (not read おんしん but かくりみ, though): [13] [14] [15]. Whym (talk) 01:18, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Whym: thanks. With this reading it makes more sense, it's also in 隱身 Apparently it's a Shinto term. Could you improve the definition, please? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Our favorite IP strikes again. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:26, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
Does this have to do with the above entry or related entries? What were the edits?
@Whym:, @Eirikr: I'll leave the above entry in your capable hands. :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:26, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict)If you look at the edit history, it was created by back in 2012. Any time you find something in our Japanese entries that's wrong in ways that just don't make sense, the odds are it traces back to this same person. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:38, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Note also that the initial character here, , is the obsolete kyūjitai for . As such, the entry at 隱身 should only ever be a stub entry marked as {{alternative spelling of|隠身}}, directing readers to the lemma entry content at 隠身.
FWIW, I find evidence for both the readings kakurimi (google books:"隠身"+"かくりみ", 81 hits) and kakuremi (google books:"隠身"+"かくれみ", 28 hits). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:22, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Atitarev, Eirikr: I tried my best at 隠身 and 隱身. Quotations are not yet added. Whym (talk) 13:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I haven't done much research on this, but 隱形 (隠形) probably has the same problem. Whym (talk) 13:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
@Whym: Thank you! I see you're using {{ja-altread}}. I haven't used it before @Eirikr: has some other way to put together terms with multiple reading but I don't remember exactly. Just by repeating the headword on two lines? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:40, 6 May 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: To ease access to services (such as banking, insurance, or healthcare) to residents in specific areas.

I have not been able to find support for "services" outside of real estate lending and property insurance, though it would not be too much of a surprise. I have created and found citations for the financial services sense (mostly lending, but I think insurance would be supportable). There are other senses for greenlined involving parkland areas and some kind of cloth used for umbrellas and parasols, among other things. DCDuring TALK 20:19, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

  • Speedy close as disruptive: DCDuring found sources, then claimed they were for a new definition of his own devising rather than the existing definition that he's RfVing. Each of the citations he has down for #2 (his new definition) also supports #1 as a definition (the definition he's contesting). DCDuring's new definition #2 is too close to the definition he's RfVing, and if one of them should be deleted, it's his. The definition also needs to be preserved to maintain parallelism with the antonym of greenlining, redlining. Furthermore, DCDuring has a history of being contentious toward me, so I somewhat suspect this latest stunt is part of that history. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 20:35, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Having two senses, each with the same three citations, and one RFVed while the other is RFDed, is certainly some kind of bureaucratic mess. Ouch. Equinox 20:49, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
The second sense should have never been added, as it is redundant to the first. The only difference is the first sense puts the onus on residents while the second sentence puts the onus on businesses. Only one sense is needed. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 20:52, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Adding the second definition definitely disrupts the process of sloppy, unsupported definition practiced by the contributor of the first sense. The first definition would have us believe that the term includes all banking and insurance services, as well as health care. The citations solely support real-estate lending and possibly property insurance.
Should I have instead simply edited the first definition to exclude what I cannot find support for?
I really don't see how parallelism is any justification, under CFI or on any but some idiosyncratic semantic-theoretical basis for inclusion. I also think that Purplebackpack89 has a pattern of personalizing any disagreement. This disagreement is readily resolved by the simple means of finding citations to support the extended sense.
Finally, the narrow sense is certainly older, with the yet-unattested extension much more recent. The timing of the evolution of the extension, should it be attested, would be worthwhile lexical information, nicely accommodated by separate definitions and separate applications of {{defdate}}. DCDuring TALK 22:06, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
You say I have a pattern of personalizing the the same comment where you personalize the disagreement, in your sentence that begins "Adding the second definition...". You should not have done things the way you did, an RfV was not needed. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 22:43, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Also, it is completely unnecessary to find new citations when the current citations in the article support either definition. Three distinct citations support definition #1. One citation applying it to something other than banking, maybe. But you didn't need an RfV for one, you only need RfV when a definition has no citations, and this definition HAS citations Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 22:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Furthermore, it is wrong of you to dismiss the parallelism argument. The term redlining predates greenlining in common parlance; redlining is STILL the more common term and greenlining is a term ONLY because redlining was a term first. Anything that can be redlined can also be greenlined. Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 22:54, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
This is only about citations. I thought gum-flapping, such as yours about symmetry, belonged on WT:RFD, though it really has no bearing on RfD either, never being mentioned directly or indirectly in WT:CFI. DCDuring TALK 01:44, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
You're the one who personalized it, forcing DCDuring to defend himself- which he did by putting your rant in the context of your usual modus operandi. You sometimes stick to the merits of the case at hand, but mostly you hold forth on the topic of how everyone either a) hates you b) is generally deficient in character or intellect, or c) narrow-mindedly wants to delete everything (often a combination of all three). If anyone replies in kind, you scream about personal attacks. I can see why Mglovesfun wanted to block you, even though I agree that was wrong. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:22, 8 May 2014 (UTC)


Allegedly a Turkish word meaning "camp".

Allegged inflected forms: definite accusative düşerge, plural düşergeler.

Someone doubts the existence of the word entry, so I request attestation. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:22, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Cited since May, but the citations don’t have translations. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:33, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Düşerge is "pay, miras payı" at Turkish. But it is not "camp". "düşərgə" is "camp" and Azeri's word. A group try to show like Turkish. --123snake45 (talk) 14:54, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
@123snake45: what do the citations at Citations:düşerge say? — Ungoliant (falai) 15:51, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I've just added the translations. -- 09:32, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


Sense: "A small positive quantity." As fas as I know, a lowercase epsilon is usually used for this sense. Keφr 20:37, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Failed. — Ungoliant (falai) 00:44, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


RFV of all senses. A sense similar to the first sense is probably attested, but it may need to be condensed and/or broadened. The other senses are more dubious. The citation assigned to sense 3 directly disclaims that the word has that sense; all of the citations for senses 2 through 4 are easily read as referring to a single sense ("a person who happens to be exempt from taxes") and it is not distinct from sense 1, as far as I have seen. (Among the first few pages of Google Books hits is the Historical Dictionary of Kazakhstan, which specifically notes that one of the rights which came with the aristocratic title was exemption from taxation. In other words, "(holder of) a certain aristocratic title" and "person exempt from taxation" are not separate senses.) The etymology is also sprawling and dubious (even after Mr. Granger's cleanup of it), referring to Korean, Mongolic and Etruscan; see the talkpage for discussion of it. - -sche (discuss) 20:44, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

I created Citations:Tarkhan (which seems to be the most common spelling). The citations support the first sense and two new ones. — Ungoliant (falai) 00:44, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Great work! I imagine the lemma of the "noble title" sense should remain lowercase; many capitalized instances are probably just honorific (compare "King"). - -sche (discuss) 04:00, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Here’s what I gathered in my research: it was originally a title granted to exceptional warriors. Eventually it become an inherited title of lower nobility. The common characteristics to both types of tarkhan were that they were allowed to visit the king/khan/etc. without requesting permission and were exempt from taxes. — Ungoliant (falai) 04:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Closed. Cleaned up and untagged by nominator. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

June 2014Edit


A proposed extension of the Esperanto participle system. I've managed to find quotations with the corresponding active suffix, -unt-, but I can't find any quotations that use this suffix. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:03, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

What about the words listed as containing suffix (vizituto, mortiguto, faruta, venkuta)? Do they exist? — Ungoliant (falai) 04:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Not as far as I can tell. If anyone can find three citations containing any of those words (or any others using the suffix), I'll be satisfied that the suffix exists. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:01, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


Any attestation of this would-be Danish word, as per WT:ATTEST, emphasizing use in permanently recorded media? google books:"musikvideoinstruktør", google groups:"musikvideoinstruktør", musikvideoinstruktør at OneLook Dictionary Search. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:23, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

I got somewhat different results at Google Books. —Stephen (Talk) 16:56, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
See. At Google Books it has 3 sources. Ready Steady Yeti (talk) 14:50, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I added a third citation. All of them still need translations though, can someone someone who speaks North Germanic languages add them or at least confirm they’re using the defined sense? — Ungoliant (falai) 19:03, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


Sense: "A photo shared on a social media network with the sole intention of making your friends/followers jealous" At first I wanted to speedy it, but then I reconsidered and decided to give it a chance. Anything durably archived? The citation given initially is incomplete. Keφr 18:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

The citation originally provided in the entry doesn't look like it's CFI-compliant. I found a few newspaper cites, but none older than November of last year. Marked as a hot word for now. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:57, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


Dubious. Editor not trustworthy. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:02, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Unless one of the native-ZH editors here can confirm that the above short spelling is an abbreviation (which seems quite unlikely), delete, and then make sure the [[lapsang souchong]] entry that this same editor also worked on is also correct and in the proper format. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 16:59, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

assal horizontologyEdit

Appears in one Simpsons episode, often quoted. Used outside of this universe at all? Equinox 14:51, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Nothing on b.g.c, Usenet hits seem to be mostly quotations from the episode. But of course, we could always keep it under the "well-known work" criterion. Keφr 15:14, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
I did find a few instances of people using it without referring to the quote. I wasn't sure if these counted: one, two, three
In general, Web pages don't count for citing because they are not durably archived (and may disappear at any time): see WT:CFI. This term could possibly be attested from Usenet newsgroups, which we do allow (because of the way they are archived), but it might still be tough. Equinox 19:31, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Cited, but the citations are far from perfect. Take a look and tell me what you think. — Ungoliant (falai) 04:39, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Hmm... RFV passed, I think. Equinox 17:54, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


Added by an IP that I blocked for responding to speedy deletion of a few unattestable entries with a couple dozen more, including "igazib" and "gagladon". There were a couple I left alone because they're attestable, and then there's this one: I found two cites, but not three. It seems plausible enough, but I'd like confirmation, given the source.Chuck Entz (talk) 03:27, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I think this should be moved to the two-word phrase:
SpinningSpark 15:00, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
I think this shows an interesting use of "nickel", but does not necessarily support "nickel brain" as a set phrase. --WikiTiki89 15:35, 8 July 2014 (UTC)


Please verify topo. I can't find the English sense of "a game" on Google or Google books. It does seem to be short for "topographical" though. Siuenti (talk) 09:14, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I have added the definition "A topographic map.". DCDuring TALK 20:10, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
I have found the game Topo, apparently invented by mathematical author Theoni Pappas, no article on WP, but the search engine there finds three references to him.
I placed one use from Usenet (via Google Groups). I have found a use by Pappas in The Joy of Mathematics. DCDuring TALK 20:31, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
There is a product called Topo! which makes Topo quite hard to find with simple search strategies. DCDuring TALK 20:36, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
Other than the ones in the entry, I found these two: [16], [17]. All of them, except Pappas’ book, are mentions. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:15, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Failed. — Ungoliant (falai) 20:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


The entry appears to be a Russian protologism. In the Italian Wiktionary was cancelled after a community decision. As an additional information, the same page was created on the same day, 10th of June, in different wiktionaries. --Diuturno (talk) 12:44, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Speedy. No meaningful definition is given. --WikiTiki89 13:11, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
It’s a foreign word (Russian), so it’s not supposed to be a definition, it gives a translation. The bigger question is, does the English word psaking meet WT:CFI. —Stephen (Talk) 15:37, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
Well in that case, no meaningful translation is given. --WikiTiki89 17:33, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
It might... sort of. I found the word psak in a Jewish discussion forum on Usenet as a term for a Halachic ruling, and people were making a verb out of it to refer to the making of such a ruling. On the other hand, there's psak, created by a Russian IP a couple of days ago with a completely different definition, which doesn't seem to be attestable- though there are thousands of hits that I haven't checked. It's impossible to tell which meaning is intended. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:45, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
While it's probably a hoax... if it's only probably we should allow it the full 30 days. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:38, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
psaking (the p is silent) is taken from Jennifer Psaki, the former spokesperson for the U.S. Department of State. psaking is supposed to mean something like defending the indefensible, and in an uninformed, confused, comical way. The Russian media quickly zeroed in on her for her inane prattle. Russia Today claimed the Russians liked to make fun of her because of the comic relief she provided. —Stephen (Talk) 10:56, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Russian пса́кинг (psáking) is a neologism. It's common on the web, plenty of definitions too, is included in some online dictionaries but no books with the term yet. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:03, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
It may be a neologism so, obviously, there won't be any old use of it. Since it seems currently quite common, I added {{hot word}}, which should be reviewed after one year has passed. (I should state again that I am neutral on the use of the word and not supporting those who created the term.) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:59, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
It still needs a better definition, because no one can be expected to know what "psaking" is and we have no English entry for it. --WikiTiki89 05:17, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
I oppose hot word on this. At least, quotations that meet WT:ATTEST other than spanning one year have to be added; if the proponents of hot word criteria even want to relax durably archived media requirement, then they have to provide at least some quotations that convey meaning, and argue why the sources of these quotations are good enough for hot word. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:24, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Why are you opposing? It is used in blogs and news articles, even if it's new and quite silly, IMHO. Some links - псакинг in Google News. I'm not going to bust my balls over this word but I may add some links to blogs or news articles. "Pravda" and "Radio Liberty" articles are definitely going to be archived. It's low on my priority list but I might add a better definition, usexes and links later. (Remind me if I forget). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:21, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Hot words are meant to be words that have such a large and widespread usage that they are unlikely to die out in the next year. This does not seem like the type of thing people will still remember next year. (Plus I still don't know what it means because no one has bothered to enter a proper definition.) --WikiTiki89 17:18, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Re: "Hot words are meant to be words that have such a large and widespread". No-one can make such guesses, until the time has passed. It is clear that the term has already gained certain popularity, due to Kremlin massive propaganda and the war of words between Russian and the West and odious Dmitry Kisselyov being the leader of the Russian media. I could add the definition and other things but I completely lost interest after watching Что такое "Псакинг"? (Psaking). If anyone deletes it, I won't object. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 09:43, 28 June 2014 (UTC)


"To speak without understanding the meaning." Cf WT:RFV#псакинг, above. - -sche (discuss) 17:29, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

For info, psaking is a current Internet buzzword/protologism mocking Jen Psaki. Equinox 17:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
"psaking" seems to be more of an attempt of pro-Russian media to create the impression of this being a buzzword, by making false claims about the existence of the would-be word, willful or otherwise; you can check the actual prevalence and the sort of occurrences in google:"psaking", especially if you press "next" reveral times. Among all the world wild web hits, most seem to be talking about the would-be word (mention) rather than actually using it, so "psaking" would probably be unattested even if we allowed any online quotations conveying meaning. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:56, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
I would not discount it as pure propaganda so quickly. The bulk of uses might be on platforms which are not indexed by Google. But either way, it does not seem to be attestable by our standards. Keφr 20:05, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
What sort of platforms do you mean? Where do you expect to find written uses of would-be English "psak" online? --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:21, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
Say, Facebook is indexed by Google rather sparsely, and 4chan only indirectly (by indexing dedicated archive sites). And yet there is a thriving slang there that with current criteria we will never successfully document. Runet has its own social networks for which I would not be surprised to find they disable indexing by external search engines. I find it somewhat plausible that a neologism like that would spread primarily through such inaccessible or ephemeral media. It might as well be real, but we have neither the resources to find evidence, nor the policy to accept it. So do not treat Google Search like an oracle it never claimed to be.
On the other hand, I will agree that this is at best a fad and nobody will remember the word in a year. Keφr 07:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
If we're having trouble finding cites, I don't think it qualifies for any exception to the year of existence in CFI. It's certainly no olinguito.--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:57, 21 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree. However I find this "I know it when I see it" test rather unsatisfactory. Any progress with more formal hot word criteria? Keφr 07:56, 22 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: Psak is widely, widely used in the Orthodox Jewish world, often as part of the phrases "psak din" and "psak halakha", and commonly left untranslated from the Hebrew. Choor monster (talk) 13:01, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
    Yes, but that is irrelevant to the sense being discussed. We could of course add this sense as well. --WikiTiki89 15:53, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
What is with the sudden psak and psak translation attack on Wiktionary? Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 03:51, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

plum blossomEdit

Rfv-sense: "The blossom of the Prunus mume."

I suspect that this was created because it was a translation of a species-limited CJKV term, not based on actual usage in English. As it stands it is misleading. DCDuring TALK 22:59, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

  • The Wikipedia article on prunus mume has said for a long time that: "The flower is usually called plum blossom", and provides a citation for that proposition. bd2412 T 13:06, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
    @BD2412: That citation is a translation of an old Chinese work, which would probably support my suspicion as to the source of the term. I really don't think that hyponymic translations should be used to justify overly specific definitions, unless we are to completely write off our role as a monolingual dictionary. DCDuring TALK 13:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
    Moreover, the book does not actually use plum blossom as a translation for the flower of Prunus mume, but rather mei-flower, as the translator explains in the introduction (page lv therof). DCDuring TALK 13:33, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, if that's the route we're going:
  • 1969, Ernest Henry Wilson, ‎Daniel J. Foley, The Flowering World of "Chinese" Wilson, p. 63:
    Japan holds flower festivals during many months of the year, beginning with that of the plum blossom (Prunus mume) in February and ending with that of the chrysanthemum in November, but the most popular is that of the cherry blossom which falls in early April.
  • 1974, Yoshiaki Mihara, Agricultural Meteorology of Japan, p. 25:
    The plum blossom is the earliest of all the flowers in Japan. The flowering date of the plum (Prunus Mume) has also been extensively studied.
  • 1983, Edwin T. Morris, The Gardens of China: History, Art, and Meanings, p. 173:
    Hsiang Sheng-mo (1 597-1 658), "Prunus mume" (mei hua) in "Landscapes, Flowers, and Birds." The plum blossom that bloomed against the naked wood was the sign of spring and renewal.
I can't say whether this is idiomatic, since the fruit of the plant is an apricot, which is technically just a pale plum. bd2412 T 13:48, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps context is an issue. Among native speakers, plum blossom would seem to be understood as "flower of the Prunus mume" only in the context of discussions about oriental flora, the Orient itself, and in reference to products or art associated with the Orient. I suppose it could all be done in a usage note. I can only hope that the translations respect the narrowness of the usage. DCDuring TALK 15:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree with your assessment. In any case, this only differs from sense one in that it identifies a specific species of plum blossom. bd2412 T 18:32, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: in the OED. Ƿidsiþ 18:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
That the fruit of Prunus mume is called a Japanese apricot and the tree goes by that name as well is sufficient, I suppose. I have added some material to the entry to clarify some of what is idiomatic about it. DCDuring TALK 19:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Actually, Prunus mume is really neither an apricot nor a plum, but something without a clear one-to-one English translation, except the lesser-known loanwords ume and mei. Botanically, it's definitely much closer to the apricot, but judging from the Wikipedia article, most of the culinary products use plum in the English name. From this I would guess that "plum" is the older, more established usage, but "apricot" is the current prescriptivist favorite. I don't think that the "it's an apricot, not a plum" argument is sufficient in itself to prove that it's idiomatic, but I'd be curious how references to the blossoms of Prunus salicina are translated, since that's the Japanese fruit most solidly identified in English usage as a plum- in the US (at least in California, where I live), it's actually far better known than the original European plum, Prunus domestica. The blossoms have deeply iconic cultural significance with both the Chinese and Japanese, and so are more likely to be found in English translations, while those of Prunus salicina are no doubt of secondary importance to the fruit. By the way, I'll have to see if I can spend some time sorting through our East Asian fruit tree terms, since many of them seem to be either confused or vague. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:21, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Prunus mume more or less specifies the bearer of the blossom. Simple vernacular terms often refer to more than one species, sometimes to different genera, families, orders, even classes and phyla. Chinese plum is an example, by no means exceptional. The set of English vernacular names that have a one-to-one correspondence to species names not only doesn't cover many species, but also is often not used except in limited contexts, though many of the contexts are in print. The English vernacular names for species not native to English-speaking lands are a challenge as there may be one or more "official" names; names based on similarity of appearance to a species that is native to English-speaking lands, qualified by one or more adjectives associating it with a region (eg, Japanese, Chinese); and transliterations of non-English names.
Plum blossom is one of a narrower set of terms that have a connection to vernacular names, but also a cultural meaning in a culture that has a strong cultural influence on the English language. DCDuring TALK 11:35, 27 June 2014 (UTC)


Some other kind of selfie. Protologism? Equinox 18:36, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

The earliest citation I could find was from September of last year. The alternate spelling usie is also in use. Should we tag this as a "hot word?" It's evidently in use, and will likely still be in use in three months time, so why not keep the nicely-formatted entry for now and reassess it later? -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
Doesn't quite cover a year but the citations are good, and numerous. Thank you. I'm okay with "hot word". Equinox 22:18, 24 June 2014 (UTC)


As far as I can tell, this is only ever mentioned in the context of the A Song of Ice and Fire books (which means it fails WT:FICTION), and even in those books and other books which discuss them, it's a title like "Queen" rather than a name. - -sche (discuss) 23:40, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

It is a rapidly growing name in the united states. See this article --Mnidjm (talk) 01:22, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't consider 146 in the US in one year to be "rapidly growing". That number is minuscule. --WikiTiki89 02:08, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
[18] finds 39 hits, about ten baby girls named Khaleesi. Birth records of Nevada are probably durably archived, but I cannot reach them or format proper citations. Betsy, less fashionable according to the Mnidjim's article, gets 2 437 163 hits. To quote WikiTiki, this kind of result means Khaleesi is very, very rare.--Makaokalani (talk) 09:12, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
Rapidly growing, as in 5 babies with the name in 2010, 28 in 2011, then 146 in 2012. --Mnidjm (talk) 21:16, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

bible beltEdit

I ask for attestation of this capitalization: bible belt. Note that Bible Belt exists, and is currently not questioned. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:12, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Even if this capitalisation is accepted, aren't the two definitions basically the same. Does the Bible Belt ever mean anywhere other than the south-east part of the country.--Dmol (talk) 00:19, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
I think the first definition of "bible belt" is meant to be general, potentially referring to any bible belt in any country. The question is whether this usage is attestable. --WikiTiki89 00:26, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
I'm not experienced at this, so ignore me if I don't know what I'm on about, but how about [19] and [20]? This, that and the other (talk) 12:20, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
The first citation seems to be rather attributive use of the narrow meaning. But it may be either way. The second I cannot read. Keφr 12:44, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't see a problem with the fact that it is attributive. It seems to be the broader meaning, since it is referring to regions of Australia as far as I can tell (even though America is mentioned earlier in the paragraph). The second I also cannot read. --WikiTiki89 13:08, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
What about w:Bible Belt (Netherlands)? —CodeCat 13:12, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
That would be another narrow sense. It doesn't necessarily prove the existence of the broad sense. --WikiTiki89 13:28, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
Also Finland, Sweden and Norway have a "bible belt". I don't know how often they are written about in English, though. --Hekaheka (talk) 15:26, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
I am sceptical that this capitalization ("bible belt") is worth keeping; I am even more sceptical that it is worth keeping as a lemma. Inspired by Heka's comment, I have added some citations of "Bible belt" and "Bible Belt" in reference to Finnish and Norwegian areas to Citations:Bible belt. I am not sure if it makes sense to have a dozen narrow senses or one broad sense + a subsense for the US region, which is the region meant by most of the citations (even most of the citations that turn up for searches like google books:"Bible belt" Finland or google books:"Bible belt" Norway). - -sche (discuss) 01:01, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

fonner, fonnestEdit

Is it a real form of the adjective fon as Equinox asked? I took a quick look in Google Books at fonnest and all I'd found was a surname (which is why I added Fonnest to the see also template at the top). Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 20:00, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

google books:"the fonnest" turns up only scannos of formest and soonest. google books:"the fonner" turns up capitalized proper nouns, and scannos of former. I'm a bit surprised that it isn't used as a jocular spelling variant of "fun / funner / funnest". - -sche (discuss) 00:51, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
Since Yeti created these himself (from the green links at fon) and now has doubts, perhaps we should speedy them and remove the -er/-est forms from fon. Equinox 11:33, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense (Portuguese): to hospitalize

Ungoliant (falai) 15:35, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Why do you think this is wrong? Could you explain your case a bit more? Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 16:01, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
RFV is not for thinking it is wrong, it is for thinking it doesn't exist. No case needs to be made, but simply citations need to be found and added. --WikiTiki89 16:10, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
The default case for RFVs is that the nominator thinks the word doesn’t pass the requirement of having three independent, permanently recorded uses (though the requirements are more lax for smaller languages). I spent some time looking for them, even the inflected and elided forms, but the only thing I could find in permanently recorded media were the adjective and scannos. Furthermore, it’s not even mentioned in the trustworthy dictionaries I have available. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:17, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
FWIW, I too looked on Google Books for several of the inflected forms (hospitalarmos, hospitalardes, hospitalando, and hospitalarem, hospitalava) and found nothing, although hospitalarem does seem to be a Latin word. If this fails, it won't be (as it is for some words) because no-one tried to cite it, it'll be because it really doesn't seem to be in use. - -sche (discuss) 00:43, 2 July 2014 (UTC)


This has the sole sense: "A very thin person." The quotations that I find seem to be adjectival. Worth attesting. google books:"skinnymalinky", google groups:"skinnymalinky", skinnymalinky at OneLook Dictionary Search. We have skinnymalinks, which I do not question, since that seems easy to attest using google books:"skinnymalinks". --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)


""Railroad built upon an evened, ground level length of land." This is supposed to be an adjective, not a noun; also, all I could find relating to railroads was sense 1 (crossings on the same level). Luciferwildcat added this sense so I am not very hopeful. Equinox 19:05, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

  • It seems very plausible as an adjective and would most most used in the context of railroads, I think, though other rights of way may be contexts as well. "A unprotected at-grade crossing" might be an example. DCDuring TALK 19:14, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Not so plausible to me. It's SOP use of at + grade (sense 8: ground level). You can find usage of "at grade", "at or above grade", "at or below grade", with hyphenation when used as a modifier. Do we have entries for at-sea-level or below-sea-level? Chuck Entz (talk) 19:32, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
I might add that grade crossing and level crossing are basically the same thing as at-grade crossing. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Because of all the references to academic grades, it's hard to be sure, but searches with preceding words such as "an", "no", "many", etc. and with pluralizing to reduce the number of false hits turns up nothing in Google Books for a noun. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:01, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Never mind. I was only thinking of the other sense. I can't see a noun meaning for this. DCDuring TALK 21:43, 28 June 2014 (UTC)


Back in December 2013 someone questioned the existence of ap as an English adjective meaning "In or relating to the apothecaries' system of measures", but nothing more was done about it, so now I'm bringing it here. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:47, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

To start off, here are a few hits in reference works: here, here, and here, and one use: here. Maybe not complete by CFI standards, but at least enough to show it wasn't made completely up. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:11, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

July 2014Edit


English. — Ungoliant (falai) 10:54, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Essentially the same edit was made to byk. I have no idea. Looks bogus but I've been wrong before. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:13, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

Shia crescentEdit

RFV all senses: I request citations to establish how the term is actually used and base definitions on that. Keφr 11:46, 3 July 2014 (UTC)


It looks like the term is in use (e.g., Dioscliosta David Guetta), but I can't find anything permanent enough to count. Not in GBooks, GGroups, or --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 04:42, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

There's, but it's more of a mention than a use. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes... that's the 1959 English-Irish Dictionary, which is as near to the Official Modern Irish dictionary as is available. (Ó Donaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla is the other half, from almost twenty years later, and doesn't include this word, although diosc and liosta are both present.)
Which leads to an awkward situation: anyone looking up "discography" in the closest thing to an official dictionary of Irish will find dioscliosta. And just because it hasn't shown up in print yet, it's appearing in other places and a print appearance would seem to be a matter of time. If someone can find it in a citable medium, then no harm, no foul. If not... I dunno. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 05:06, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
No, it is not listed in the 1959 English-Irish Dictionary; the link above points to Foras na Gaeilge's new English-Irish dictionary. Irish is an LDL, so a single mention is sufficient for it to pass RFV, but since Foras na Gaeilge coins its own Irish words in response to a perceived gap in the language (rather than waiting for speakers to develop terms naturally and then reporting them), I'm not inclined to take its word for the realness of this term. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:20, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Huh. That's not exactly clear from that page. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 23:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
It is once you get used to how that site is organized. The pages that say "New English-Irish Dictionary" beneath the logo belong to the new dictionary. The Ó Donaill and de Bhaldraithe databases are at, e.g. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:49, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Mexican beer dermatitisEdit

The phenomenon itself is thoroughly plausible, since many plants in the family that limes belong to contain photosensitizing substances- but I only found one usenet post, which linked to an online article, which referred to a journal article published in 2010. It looks like a one-off descriptive phrase that never caught on. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:19, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

  • Journal of the American Medical Association - Dermatology: [21] 2010
  • New York Daily News [22] 2010
  • National Public Radio [23] 2010
  • "The Doctors" TV show [24] 2011
  • Canadian Dermatology Association [25] 2014

-- 10:31, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

margarita dermatitisEdit

By the same user. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:01, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I didn't rfv this one because this quote seems to point to there being actual usage, though Google Books and Google Groups don't show it. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
But even that quote is just a mention. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
  • BBC [26] 2006
  • ScienceDaily [27] 2007
  • KCRW radio [] 2013
  • USA Today [28] 2013
  • [29] 2013
  • Canadian Dermatology Association [30] 2014
  • New England Journal of Medicine [31] Margarita Photodermatitis - 1993 (yes this is a somewhat different term; seeing if it should be added or left alone, if these are being deleted; there's also the alternate meaning for "lime disease" being phytophotodermatitis from the fruit 'lime' (shown in some of the links above))

-- 10:31, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Various ostensibly Hiberno-English wordsEdit


RFV of the English section. google books:ablachs turns up nothing but Scots; google books:ablach turns up a lot of capitalized chaff. - -sche (discuss) 13:48, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I have a hunch we're dealing with someone who considers Ulster Scots to be English, or is using a reference with that point of view. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:56, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
Ah yes, Ullans, the lect famously derided by opponents and even some supporters as "a DIY language". Hard to say what L2 it should be treated under (English, Scots, or an L2 all its own), since its speakers try so hard to make it different from both English and Lallans Scots. I'd stick with considering it Scots for now (though note how it was double-categorised). - -sche (discuss) 19:06, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
I would definitely treat it as a variety of Scots. Any words with a distinctly Ullans sense should be tagged with {{label|sco|Ulster}} to be categorized in [[Category:Ulster Scots]]. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:47, 6 July 2014 (UTC)


- -sche (discuss) 14:37, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


- -sche (discuss) 16:57, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


I'm seeing exactly one citation of this word (probably, but not definitely of one of the two listedmeanings) at Google Books: John Joseph Jennings' 1900 Widow Magoogin. I see nothing on Usenet. - -sche (discuss) 18:59, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

PS, "listedmeanings" is not a typo/misspelling, it's an homage to Joyce, who typo'ed/misspelt this word as pishogue. - -sche (discuss) 19:01, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


Nothing on Google Books for this spelling, "doodog" or "dudoge", or the plurals thereof. "Dudog(s)" might be citable. - -sche (discuss) 20:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


Nothing on Google Books. The "alternative form" garsoon does seem to be attested, but seems to be derived directly from French, not via Connacht Irish as gasoor claims. - -sche (discuss) 20:29, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


All I see on Google Books are capitalized names (from a variety of sources, including Slavic) and an unrelated common noun meaning "corner", from an unidentified language. - -sche (discuss) 20:33, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


Esperanto for uxoricide. Nothing on Google Books, Google Groups, or Tekstaro. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)


Esperanto alternative spelling of olivoleo, which means olive oil. Nothing on Google Books, Tekstaro, or Google Groups. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:27, 5 July 2014 (UTC)


Allegedly Slovene for "apple tree". Since Slovene is not an less-documented language per Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion/Well documented languages, I ask for three quotations attesting the word in use to convey meaning, as per WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:44, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

You don't have to be so overly formal about it. We all know what RFV is for. —CodeCat 20:49, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Don't the refs suffice? They are from the site of SAZU (w:Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts). The second one is from a web edition of a 19th century dictionary by w:sl:Maks Pleteršnik, AFAICT. --biblbroksдискашн 21:03, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Not in this case. Slovene is not an LDL so we need three real citations of usage. But we probably won't find any because this is a dialectal term that would not likely be used in published texts. —CodeCat 21:06, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
Re: "We all know what RFV is for.": As you can see, many people have a poor idea of RFV. Nothing wrong with being clear and explicit so that even newbies can know what is going on, which you call "overly formal". --Dan Polansky (talk)
Indeed, people sometimes post things here asking to verify the pronunciation, which isn't the job of this page. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:03, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

pecker millEdit

I request attestation in use to convey meaning as per WT:ATTEST. The current three quotations are not in use to convey meaning, IMHO, since the invocation of the term is preceded by "called", so the quotations talk about the term rather than using it. Relevant snippets: "Rice mills, called pecker, cog, and water mills...", "and in others by a rude machine, called a pecker mill.", "The first mechanical mills were harnessed to animals: the so-called pecker mill ". --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:35, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the citations in the entry are good enough. —CodeCat 12:44, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Are they used to convey meaning? --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:46, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion, yes they do convey meaning. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:58, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Additional cites added from the Google Books search on the citations page. Thanks for wasting our time. DCDuring TALK 15:16, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
Of the citations in the entry, I think the 1995 and 2003 ones are clear uses; the rest are all mentions or at least very mention-y. I don't doubt that there's a third use out there somewhere, though. - -sche (discuss) 18:49, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
If you look at the first one " [] called a pecker mill", I'd class this as a use not a mention. It's used in context to convey meaning but recognizes that the reader may not be familiar with the term, hence the wording. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:03, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
I rest my case. A sentence of the form "X is called Y" does not use Y; it merely mentions it. For the purpose of use-mention distinction, I do not see a difference between "X is called Y" and a dictionary entry "Y: X". Sentence "X is called Y" does not make use of the meaning of Y; instead, the sentence binds the meaning to Y to the reader; in order to understand the sentence, the reader does not need to know the meaning of Y.
As for the 2003 quotation ("The pecker mill is likely the fulcrum device developed by Guerrard in 1691."): the phrase "The pecker mill" does not suggest the meaning of the term is clear to the reader and to the writer either; instead, the writer seems to be in the process of figuring out what "pecker mill" means, stating one hypothesis about the meaning of the term in the quotation. That does not seem very use-y to me, but I admit that it is much better than the "X is called Y" quotations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:40, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: feminine form of chocolat. Chocolat is listed as an invariable adjective. Perhaps it's attested though. Even if attested, it could be considered a rare error (unless it isn't rare). It's similar to orange and rose which are not supposed to have feminine forms or plural forms. Renard Migrant (talk) 09:25, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't find any uses of this spelling, but then, I couldn't find many uses of chocolat as an adjective, either. - -sche (discuss) 04:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

iridium birthdayEdit

Ungoliant (falai) 01:50, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Highly dubious. Searching for " "iridium birthday" -SUNGLASSES -JOHNNY ROGERS " brings up exactly nothing in Google web, books, or images. Only addition by this anon editor. Suspect hoax.--Dmol (talk) 04:08, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Probably not a hoax, but most likely a protologism. I think the idea is: if there's a silver anniversary for 25 years and golden anniversary for fifty years, then you just have to come up with a substance that isn't in the lists for a number that isn't in the lists, and, secondarily, the same concept that applies to anniversaries must apply to birthdays as well. People add lame inventions like this all the time- look through WT:LOP and you'll find lots of them. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:42, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
A protologism is a hoax for our purposes. Unless I suppose the creator freely admits they've coined the word. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:00, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

Deleted. I believe it’s a hoax. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 16:36, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


RFV of the noun meaning "The action of driving around a reservation without a license to do so".
In non-durable media, one can find a different noun sense, along the lines of "the act of, as a white person, appropriating a non-white culture's practice as if one were discovering/inventing it from scratch", but this doesn't seem to have been used in durable media yet.
On Google Books, there are some old (1910s) hits for google books:Columbusing|Columbused|Columbus as a verb, which I've added to Columbus. - -sche (discuss) 04:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Since we've had this since December 2004, if this turns out to be bogus it could be the longest-surviving hoax we've ever had. 4 months less than 10 years. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:43, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
I've read that Wikipedia catches most vandalism within 24 hours (because people who watch the vandalized pages notice it), but the things it doesn't catch within 24 hours survive for months or even years. I can imagine the numbers would be similar here. We have had a few other instances of dubious content surviving for a long time, e.g. Talk:lain, Talk:peewee. - -sche (discuss) 14:36, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
Heh, I inserted a lie into a Wikipedia "trivia" section in 2006 and it remained there for 7 years, 10 months, and 2 days. It only got removed because someone ditched all of the trivia. Equinox 21:48, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

devil's shouldersEdit

The only uses I can find seem to be of the {{&lit}} sense. - -sche (discuss) 18:31, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Not even in Google Groups. Also I can't verify the sole citation in the entry. DCDuring TALK 19:49, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
The IP that created the entry was really Gtroy/Luciferwildcat, as was Acdcrocks, who added the citation. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:05, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
The edition cited, the 39th (2005) of Gray's Anatomy, could almost certainly be found in a medical school bookstore or library for verification. If the cite is a fabrication, it is just something else to add the indictment. DCDuring TALK 18:42, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Company namesEdit

These need citations meeting WT:COMPANY rules -- Liliana 21:20, 11 July 2014 (UTC)



(company sense only) -- Liliana 21:20, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

This already passes. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:25, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Where are the citations? - -sche (discuss) 15:16, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, I mean it passes WT:COMPANY as "To be included, the use of the company name other than its use as a trademark (i.e., a use as a common word or family name) has to be attested." It's attested as town in Finland. It would seem trivial to type these citations up. I just said it passes, I never claimed to have typed the citations up. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:47, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
the use of the company name. The city sense is not the use of the company name. -- Liliana 09:45, 14 July 2014 (UTC)





  • I oppose this RFV nomination. This is a very unwise nomination. These entries are single-word ones, capable of hosting lexicographical material such as etymology, pronunciation and translation into other languages; multiple of the nominated items already do. WT:COMPANY is not supported by consensus, as per Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2012-02/CFI and company names. WT:COMPANY is not a plain RFV regulation; it is one that places additional hurdles on company names, for reasons that I still do not undertand and that are IMHO not explained at Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2012-02/CFI and company names. The opposers have not explained why company names must be excluded while place names can be included. The arguing in the vote is along the line "we need some rules or else will have too many company names", but the opposers have not proposed any rules, and have not explained what is wrong with having a large number attested single-word company names. As for plain RFV nomination, all terms are clearly in widespread use, and RFV does not apply. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:32, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
    • We have a certain user here who often likes to say "no consensus -- status quo ante". Keφr 08:50, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
      • For one thing, the status quo ante before this RFV for the nominated terms in the namespace is that Wiktionary has them. But let us look broader, at the status of company names in the mainspace in general, not just the nominated ones. As for most of the nominated terms, they are quite recent, so they are a poor indication of "ante": Motorola (since August 2012), Samsung (since August 2012), Hyundai (since September 2012‎), Toshiba (since March 2013‎), and Mitsubishi (since April 2013‎). However, Wiktionary had company names as early as in 2004 - Sony; Apple, BMW, FedEx, Gibson, Google, IBM,Kawasaki, Mobil, Nokia, Peugeot, Pixar, Raleigh, Toyota and Volvo are all from 2005, all as company names. More company names are listed at User talk:Dan Polansky#Company names. There were some deletions, including Atari, Exxon, Microsoft and Verizon, and probably other. As for the current WT:COMPANY text in CFI, it was entered there without a vote and even without a discussion AFAICT, so it never was supported by consensus by any stretch; the diffs that I found are diff (22 May 2005) and diff (21 November 2007). So I am not sure what your point really is. In any case, I consider this use of RFV to be an abuse of it, by a person who could not get his or her way by a proper consensus-based channel, in Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-05/Names_of_specific_entities and Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-05/Placenames_with_linguistic_information_2 under former user name Prince Kassad, newly Liliana-60. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:41, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
        • It may have been added without prior discussion, but nobody removed it. The above-linked vote on your proposal has failed with 9 opposes against 8 supports. Which for me indicates that the community feels that WT:COMPANY is still in force, and supports keeping it in place for the time being. And even if the policy is changed, the citations collected here (or lack thereof) can still be useful to make drafting the new policy more of an evidence-based discussion instead of armchair consensus-building. Keφr 12:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
          • The fact that no one removed the offending part from the CFI after it was added is wholly immaterial. I for one never felt comfortable making changes to a policy page that said at the top of the page that changes should not be done without a vote. For some time, I naively thought that CFI was really based on consensus; I only discovered later that it was not so. As a result, I set up a multitude of votes to remove things from CFI that were not supported by consensus. Some were a pass, some were a fail. Some of the best examples of things that were in CFI for ages with most people not taking them seriously is the attributive-use rule, removed via Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-05/Names_of_specific_entities. The trick of adding stuff to policy pages and hoping that people will not remove them for the fear of edit war was tried in Wiktionary multiple times by various editors, with a considerable success. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:09, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't know, which rule could be applicable here but I vote keep all and I think we should keep all notable one word company names for the same reason we keep countries and place names. People are likely to look them up, search translations or want to find etymology, pronunciation. The more linguistic info such entries contain, the more important and interesting they are. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:48, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


Esperanto for crowbar. The alternate spelling levstango is attested, but there's nothing for this spelling on Google Groups or Tekstaro, and only a single mention on Google Books. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:46, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


This looks like another made-up substitute for a term whose etymology isn't Turkic enough. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:06, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

It is some people's surname in Turkey. Kara means black and bat means duck or kar means snow (kara is the dativ form) and bat means sink in Turkish. Why are you commenting about the etymology of a Turkish word without knowing Turkish language? -- 03:21, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Some people's surname... that would be Karabat then. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
You may find some google results that it was used with the sense of pinguin: May 1, 2014 Linux'un simgesi karabat kuşudur (yani penguendir). (from Google Groups). -- 13:47, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I don't need to speak the language to see that penguen, the word listed in dictionaries, isn't etymologically Turkic, and you've now demonstrated that karabat is. Thank you for proving my point. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:17, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
You mean penguen has not Turkish origin. I misunderstood because you used the word "enough". Anyway... -- 11:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
"karabat" isn't penguin. They did fabricate against "buzulkuşu" word and try to show like a other bird the "buzulkuşu" word.
This unsigned message was typed by Türkeröz. -- 11:33, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
According to Avibase buzulkuşu means Diuca speculifera. -- 09:37, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
You made add to Avibase. It is your cheat... -- 12:03, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
Avibase is not an open dictionary like wiktionary. -- 20:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


Added by same IP as previous. rfving to be on the safe side. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:20, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

It is a noun derived from old Turkish verb öndürmek to produce. It's some people's surname in Turkey. -- 03:27, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Some people's surname... that would be Öndürücü then. Renard Migrant (talk) 12:31, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


As far as durably archived material goes, it is only used in the film Portrait of a Zombie. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


The superlative base form of שיין (sheyn) is שענסט (shenst). The declensional forms are דער שענסטער (der shenster), די שענסטע (di shenste) and so forth. --Sgold84 (talk) 15:50, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


RFV-sense "A doctrine of wholeness which may involve brainwashing." I'm not even sure if that's saying any such doctrine is a "totalism" and one can speak of multiple "totalisms", or if "totalism" is one particular doctrine of wholeness. The word itself seems to be one of those words that every philosopher and theorist gives her or his own interpretation to, and which therefore never has the same meaning two times in a row. It's even possible the RFVed sense was just a clumsy attempt at expressing one of the other senses I've just added. - -sche (discuss) 04:40, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


Scannos constitute a large portion of the limited number of Google Books hits this gets. I am doubtful enough citations remain to attest all four of the entry's senses. (Some scannos are of "man-woman" in phrases like "the ideal man-woman relationship", but others are of the entirely ambiguous designations "man-woman" and "woman-man" which I comment on here.) - -sche (discuss) 05:13, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

manwomen needs citing as well, or else it's a case of plural unattested. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:09, 15 July 2014 (UTC)



Supposedly modern (as opposed to Middle) English. I am doubtful. BGC hits are mostly scannos. - -sche (discuss) 05:40, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

The OED has entries for the noun queem marking it as obsolete (and the latest cite from before 1500 suggesting that it's really Middle English). The adjective and adverb are less clear, with the OED saying "now rare" but including cites from regional English in some senses (some with the spelling weem or wheem, and a Scots cite from 1983 (New Testament in Scots). Dbfirs 07:21, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
I found a couple of uses for the verb and added citations for them. Not sure how old they actually are (one seems to use Middle English words/forms in an archaic fashion, so I suspect EME on that one); but the other is certainly Modern. Added tag. Leasnam (talk) 14:13, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
A couple more I added. One need only search after 'que(e)mest', 'que(e)meth', etc. to flush out the lave of them. There is also the variant quim. But I do think that the two entries should be merged, probably at queem? Leasnam (talk) 18:41, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree, merge to queem, with queme as alternative form of. Ƿidsiþ 19:30, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
I found another work which has the same poem about "the king she quemed"; it clarifies that the original was by Robert Mannyng (1275–1340) and that avenant, semblant and marvellich mean handsome, appearance and marvellously. Aside from those words, it seems to be an updated version of Robert's poem rather than a pure quotation, however, which in my understanding (see Talk:undeadliness) means it can be cited as English.
I have merged the noun and the verb at queem. Note that I have left the adjective at queme because queem does not currently claim that the 'ee' spelling can be an adjective. Also note that various senses still need citations.
PS, to save anyone else the trouble, I just went through every citation of google books:"queming" and google books:"queeming" and found nothing relevant; most hits were scannos of fre-quenting across a line break, some were scannos of querning. - -sche (discuss) 18:09, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


Supposedly English. Has one citation, but it's apparently Scots. Google Books turns up Middle English, Scots and scannos. - -sche (discuss) 05:45, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

However, It wouldn't surprise me if this were attested in an entirely different sense, namely "eye dialect of fairly". - -sche (discuss) 05:45, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
The OED has entries for noun, adjective, verb and adverb. All marked as obsolete in English (though probably preserved in Scots) except for our noun sense which is "chiefly Scottish English and dialect". The most recent cite is from "N. Davis & C. L. Wrenn Eng. & Medieval Stud." (1962) but C Day Lewis used the noun in Time to Dance in 1935. Dbfirs 07:07, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


Seems to be Scots, but I do see a couple of citations of "umbesetting" from Dickens and Blackwood's [usually English-language] Edinburgh Magazine, so perhaps some of the senses are used in English. - -sche (discuss) 05:50, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

The OED has entries for both the verb and the noun (umbesetting), but marks both as obsolete in English (latest cite from 1624). I would be surprised to see current usages outside Scots (where obsolete English is preserved as a novelty). Dbfirs 06:55, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Verb senses cited. The first sense’s second and third citations are a bit iffy, so IDK if those should count. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:16, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Impressive! And indicative of an oddness Liliana and I discussed on RFD not long ago: Google Books apparently shows you different citations than it shows me (and shows me different citations than it showed Liliana on RFD). As I speculated then, perhaps it's finally doing what it promised, showing users "customized" results which are as (poorly) predictive of what I want to see as its autocomplete suggestions are. I'm not sure what sense "There is an umbeset moat" is using; if I sub in "surround", it doesn't make sense to me: "there is a surrounded moat". (Doesn't a moat do the surrounding, rather than being surrounded?) - -sche (discuss) 17:56, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I hazarded the guess that the author could be referring to something else surrounding the moat (the strip of cement? The wording suggests the strip of cement is the moat, but I’ve never seen a strip of anything being called a moat). It could be merely mistaken usage of the word, though. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
I would venture, 'There is a moat which is umbeset', meaning "there is a moat that is set-around" , a moat that surrounds. Leasnam (talk) 18:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
The first verb sense and the only noun sense failed. Citations moved to Citations:umbeset. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


The one citation in the entry is the only one I can find. Note also the difference between the definition of this word ("claim one-thousandth of") and the definitions of all the words linked-to from the see also section ("reduce by X"). - -sche (discuss) 06:18, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Failed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


RFV on the English section. There are currently two items in the English section:

  1. Alternative spelling of Nakba.
  2. A catastrophe; an event that results in great loss, sorrow, and misery. (Added in diff.)

For the proper noun sense, I ask for attestation of this capitalization.

The sole quotation currently provided for the 2nd sense is a mention, IMHO ('For Muslims, the capture in 1967 of the Temple Mount (Harem al— Sharif to them) stands as a nakba, Arabic for “catastrophe.”'). Searches: google books:"nakba", google groups:"nakba", nakba at OneLook Dictionary Search --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:51, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

The following quotations now present in the entry are mentions rather than uses, IMHO:

  • For Muslims, the capture in 1967 of the Temple Mount (Harem al— Sharif to them) stands as a nakba, Arabic for “catastrophe.”
  • While a "nakba" referred to an invasion by an alien (non-Muslim) power, often accompanied by mass looting, destruction, and population uprooting [...]
  • Our President is admitting that the war has been a nakba, a setback. 'I take full personal responsibility.' 'But not for long,' murmurs Mahmoud, in whose company I am watching this ultra-dramatic moment.
  • At the ceremony to donate the funds, Rafik Husseini, an aide to Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, referred to what happened in New Orleans as a nakba. (Italics in the original.)
  • Al-Quds, the largest Palestinian daily, described the collapse of Baghdad as a nakba (catastrophe). "This is not going to be the last nakba," it said in an editorial.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 15:09, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

"The capture in 1967 of the Temple Mount (Harem al— Sharif to them) stands as a nakba", "Our President is admitting that the war has been a nakba, a setback", and "This is not going to be the last nakba" look like uses to me. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 15:12, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
For the 1st one, with the important part highlighted by me in italics: "[...] the capture in 1967 of the Temple Mount (Harem al— Sharif to them) stands as a nakba, Arabic for “catastrophe.”. The sentence is explicit about referring to nakba as an Arabic word, not an English one; and it immediately provides the meaning, so the reader does not need to know the meaning of "nakba" (indeed, most readers don't).
For the 2nd one: The president is probably an Arabic speaker, and the book uses a romanization of an Arabic word, immediately stating the meaning of the word to the reader after a comma. Such a provision of meaning after a comma is IMHO a good telltale mark that the quotation cannot be reliably understood to be using the word to convey meaning.
For the 3rd quotation, when one takes the sentence mentioned by you alone, it really looks like use. But the sentence is immediately preceded by a sentence introducing the Arabic word "nakba". To me, seeing this as a use is questionable, while not as unequivocal as the other quotations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:46, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Re the common-noun sense "a catastrophe": I share Dan's misivings about the citations which are currently in the entry. The 2013 citation makes clear that it is merely mentioning nakba, not only by its phrasing, but also by italicizing the term as an occurrence of a foreign word, not an English word. (Whoever typed the citations up in the entry did a sloppy job of it, because they didn't reproduce this italicization, and they didn't sort the quotations by date.) Likewise, the 1995 is a mention, and although the cited edition of the work (Societal transition to democracy in Mauritania) doesn't italicize the term, other editions do (e.g. Political Liberalization and Democratization in the Arab World). The 2014 is another mention, both in its phrasing and in that it italicizes the term. The 2003 citation is questionable, for the reasons Dan outlines. The 1998 citation, on the other hand, looks solid, and I have placed one other citation which I think it valid at Citations:nakba; notably, it uses the plural.
Re the "alternative capitalization" sense: in trying to cite the common-noun sense, I came across enough citations of lowercase "nakba" meaning "the Nakba" that I think I can cite it. I'll see...
- -sche (discuss) 17:12, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Update: I have moved the questionable citations out of the entry and into the citations page, leaving the one citation I thought was good and adding two more. - -sche (discuss) 17:24, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Both senses are now cited, I think. - -sche (discuss) 17:55, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Passed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "the/a present one of some sort", which I think refers to 'gift' not 'present tense'. Even so, both 'gift' and 'present' tense are présent. The Trésor de langue française informatisée list this (and the present tense meaning) as présent but doesn't list them as présente. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:32, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Failed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

teória sprisahaniaEdit

Looks unattested (WT:ATTEST). --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:11, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Look it up on Google, there are multiple hits on Slovak sites. Peter238 (talk) 12:25, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Read the link WT:ATTEST. Renard Migrant (talk) 13:05, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Right. In that case, I don't have better sources than this. I took it from the Slovak Wikipedia. Peter238 (talk) 16:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Failed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


Suspicious; b.g.c gives hundreds of hits, but only capitalised in geographical names, and only a handful from the twentieth century. Only one hit for "tiberoons", meaning a shark species. Keφr 17:25, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

Looks like a hoax but still better to give it 30 days if there's the slightest chance it isn't. Renard Migrant (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Failed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


English: electric bike

Ungoliant (falai) 02:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Failed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


Almost all of the results of google books:"misqueme" are quotations of The Plowman's Tale; one result is a different Middle English work quoted in The Index of Middle English Prose, Handlist VIII. Only one result is a book that is modern — and it's so modern that it was apparently e-published (and is therefore questionably durable), viz. The Mating Rituals of the Burning Giraffe: "'Aren't there any TV shows?' she suggested, but took that back herself after a moment's consideration, and before he could misqueme her again." - -sche (discuss) 15:48, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Failed. Converted to Middle English. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


Asturian sense of "Scotland". I'm skeptical that an Iberian Romance language would use the Gaelic name for Scotland; note that Escocia is also (much more plausibly) said to be the Asturian word for "Scotland". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:34, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

I managed to find an Asturian use of Alba as an abbreviation of Alba de Tormes, but none meaning Scotland. Escocia, on the other hand, is easily citable. — Ungoliant (falai) 23:52, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Failed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:40, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


This doesn't even appear to exist, let alone be durably citable. Having said that, podad seems to be a Polish term of some kind (not in our entry), making searching quite difficult. This, that and the other (talk) 03:51, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

The creation edit summary says it all: (INTRODUCTION OF THE "PODAD"). This was added as a Wikipedia entry by a user whose only other surviving contribution there was adding a bunch of advertising copy to the entry for w:PowerSchool. Since podcasts were only invented a decade ago, filtering for books from 2004 or later brought it down to manageable size, and there was basically nothing- a couple of scannos for "iPodAds" in an example spreadsheet in books about MS Excel. I found only one hit on groups: here, and it's kind of equivocal. I can't be 100% sure that I checked everything, but it doesn't look good for the entry- which looks to me like an attempt to hype a commercial venture that got interwikied to us before anyone got around to deleting it. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
I suggest we speedily delete it.​—msh210 (talk) 19:31, 24 July 2014 (UTC)



  1. Using specious arguments or discourse.
    a plausible speaker

See Wiktionary:Tea_room/2014/July#a _plausible_ speaker uses specious arguments or discourse?

Chuck Entz (talk) 02:06, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

If a speaker says of someone else that He is a "plausible speaker, using sense 2, he is failing to endorse the truth of what the "plausible speaker" says. That is a kind of understated or polite criticism of the "plausible speaker" or the arguments made. Some dictionaries seem to have found that usage has elevated this kind of implication to the status of a pejorative definition. A collocation like "plausible liar" makes it difficult to determine whether plausible itself has the negative meaning rather than liar alone. I wonder what kind of quotations would give use evidence: something like "not true, but plausible"? DCDuring TALK 02:48, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Having looked at a few examples, even "not true, but plausible" doesn't assure us of plausible having negative rather than neutral valence, IMO. DCDuring TALK 02:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Senses 2 through 4 were part of the original entry, created in 2004 by a user who was apparently mass-importing data to pad out the new dictionary. The second sense, especially, is not much better than random verbiage: what does "obtaining approbation" have to do with plausibility? What does "specifically pleasing" mean? It looks like the first sense was added because the other senses have little to do with the one meaning in widespread, modern use. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:53, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
To my surprise, the New Oxford Dictionary of English (2001) does have this: "(of a person) skilled at producing persuasive arguments, especially ones intended to deceive: a plausible liar. Assuming OUP are right, senses #2 and #4 to me also need verifying. Renard Migrant (talk) 10:51, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: The "obtaining approbation" sense fits with the etymology. The entry is from MW 1913, from which so many entries have been copied and remain without significant alteration. The ARTFL copy of MW 1913's definitions follows:
  1. Worthy of being applauded; praiseworthy; commendable; ready. [Obs.] Bp. Hacket.
  2. Obtaining approbation; specifically pleasing; apparently right; specious; as, a plausible pretext; plausible manners; a plausible delusion. Plausible and popular arguments." Clarendon.
  3. Using specious arguments or discourse; as, a plausible speaker. <-- 4 appearing worthy of belief [MW10]. Now the most common sense, and a good sense, rather than the traditional bad sense. --> Syn. -- Plausible, Specious. Plausible denotes that which seems reasonable, yet leaves distrust in the judgment. Specious describes that which presents a fair appearance to the view and yet covers something false. Specious refers more definitely to the act or purpose of false representation; plausible has more reference to the effect on the beholder or hearer. An argument may by specious when it is not plausible because its sophistry is so easily discovered.
MW 1913, following the practice of many dictionaries presents the definitions in the plausible, even probable, order of their development. We rely on the more prominent placement of the "obsolete" label.
I believe that all of the synonyms in all of the definitions reflect words that could be substituted for plausible at the beginning of the 20th century and earlier. From them one could inductively arrive at "the" meaning. For our style of definition, definition 2 seems to contain a contradiction: "specious" does not fit with the others (IMO).
I have no idea why definition 4 is formatted as it is and whose usage note it contains. The synonyms discussion seems to suggest that definitions 2 and 3 had been the prevailing senses. This fits with my finding of some modern philosophy (logic) texts that had the need to explicitly distinguish between "specious" and "possible"-type glosses of plausible. I don't really doubt that MW 1913 was accurately reporting 1-3 as definitions that were or had been in common use. I think this needs cleanup, to convert from "synonyms" lists to proper definitions using the current meanings of preferably unambiguous defining words or at least use of modern synonyms. This takes more than a hit-and-run effort, IMO.
Move to RfC. DCDuring TALK 12:49, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


Alternative spelling of Norcal, meaning northern California. I can't find any uses, but it is somewhat difficult to search for because of the asterisk. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:09, 20 July 2014 (UTC)


This better pass WT:FICTION. --WikiTiki89 17:53, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

There's no use in lion about it. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:04, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


RFV of the Spanish entry with this capitalization. --WikiTiki89 13:39, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Is there any particular reason you believe this to be unattestable? Purplebackpack89 16:53, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the fact that the event took place in California, and the fact that Spanish doesn't normally capitalize common nouns. --WikiTiki89 17:15, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
California has a large Spanish-speaking minority though. —CodeCat 17:24, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, but they don't produce much literature as far as I know. Anyway, I was wrong because this event took place back then when California was at least in part still part of Mexico, but the second part of my point still stands that Spanish does not normally capitalize certain common nouns the way English does. --WikiTiki89 17:28, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
For the gazillionth time, this is a proper noun, not a common noun. Purplebackpack89 17:31, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Why? It has a plural, and it can take an indefinite article. —CodeCat 17:32, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Please don't bring that debate here to RFV. Regardless of what type of noun it is, I'm not withdrawing the RFV. --WikiTiki89 17:33, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89:, I still don't understand why you consider the construction unusual. It is my experience that factions are capitalized in romance languages. For example, the Green Party is referred to as "Les Vertes" (capital V) in French, and "Los Verdes" in Spanish. Purplebackpack89 17:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
"Los Verdes" is a proper noun referring to the organization. --WikiTiki89 18:07, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
The Spanish entry is a common noun, just like the English word "Popperian" (A proponent of Karl Popper's philosophy) or "Clintonite" (A political supporter of Bill Clinton). --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:43, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Purplebackpack89 if you're so confident this exists, just cite it. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:08, 23 July 2014 (UTC)


"A musician or band's demo tape." Seems redundant to the general sense of a magnetic tape medium. Equinox 21:36, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

So it should be deleted, rather than verified? Siuenti (talk) 16:44, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, if we can find cites that say, "I asked for an audiotape, so why'd you bring me this tape of music from a concert", they'd suffice to prove this is a separate sense. (I doubt that's gonna happen, but what do I know.)​—msh210 (talk) 19:25, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
I wonder if tape is used generically to refer to demos released on mediums other than magnetic tape (e.g., home-burnt CDRs). Much as we continue to speak of "rewinding" DVDs and Blu-rays despite the fact that the days of VHS are long past. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 21:30, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Only seen this for mixtape, e.g. "an MP3 mixtape". Equinox 12:54, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
People called CDs tapes for a while, before they got used to them. --WikiTiki89 16:18, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


Consensus supports Verb prophesy and Noun prophecy. Example: Disciples came to hear Jesus prophesy and wrote down His prophecy. Proposed inclusion of Verb prophecy breaks that pattern. I have seen some examples of this but not in a present dictionary or normative text. Unless anyone supplies citations showing it to be either 1) (by default) a current English usage, or 2) an archaic usage that was proscriptively correct in an era identified by more than "dated", it will not meet WT:CFI#Attestation. This link searches many dictionaries but finds nouns. 15:33, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Cited. I’m not convinced it’s even dated. Perhaps now rare, now uncommon or now nonstandard are more accurate labels. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:51, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Kept, detagging rfv. Should it be defined as a misspelling, though, rather than a dated form? I suspect so.​—msh210 (talk) 19:23, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Please do not remove rfv tag until these questions are resolved. I don't think it is Wiktionary's mission to define a list of misspellings. Retagging rfv. 18:51, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
We do include misspellings. --WikiTiki89 18:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Creating a dictionary of misspellings strikes me as perverse. You wind up with a useless dictionary. 21:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
You end up with a dictionary that will tell you what the word you're looking at means and what it's current common spelling is.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:07, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


Scottish Gaelic entry. I've just downgraded this from a full entry to an "alternative spelling of ugh" (which is the usual spelling), but I'm hoping someone who actually knows Scottish Gaelic will be able to confirm or deny that this spelling is ever actually encountered. I thought it was an Irish-only neologism, but I could be wrong. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2014 (UTC)


I can't find this speeling to mean café in attestation sources. google books:"caffе", google groups:"caffе", caffе at OneLook Dictionary Search. (Was in café as an alternative spelling.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:25, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Cited. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


I nominate the English section; the Italian is okay. I can't find this spelling used in English to mean café in English attestation sources. google books:"caffè", google groups:"caffè", caffè at OneLook Dictionary Search. (Was in café as an alternative spelling.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

In Melbourne (just in case, Australia is an English speaking country), the signs with "caffè" are common with no English translation. It may be a case of eye dialect but I thought, I'd mention it, anyway. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Cited. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

big ballsEdit

Alleggedly means "courage". I request attesting quotations per WT:ATTEST. This was already once in RFV, but the RFV closure was irregular and no attesting quotations were provided. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:33, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Just to clarify, the previous discussion DP refers to is at Talk:big_balls. Equinox 20:37, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
  • Doesn't just "balls" mean courage? Purplebackpack89 02:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
    Regardless of what "balls" means, I request evidence in the form of attesting quotations that the phrase "big balls" is actually attested to mean courage, as per WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:30, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    Does that help? --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 08:22, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    Let us have a look. I'll take the 1st quotation and replace "big balls" with X, and let us see whether the quotation suggests X means courage. The result is this: "Biffy says, “You've got X for a girl Bubbles. I like your style. Give it to him. Juicy's rotten, but Bubbles. You've got the scevusa on your hands now.” Bubbles drops the hot dog, and calls Biffy and Juicy some un-young ladylike words.". Now, do you think it can be inferred from the sentence that X means courage? --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:09, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    Yes, I do, actually. Do you not? Certainly it is clear from two of those quotes that it's not a literal reference to body parts. The other quotes are similar: they are general approbations with a clear meaning. Unless you are demanding one of the quotes from a dictionary of slang, or a quote of something like "He showed that he had big balls by standing up by which I mean he was very brave" or something equally awful. (I'll grant that the quote you copied here could be reduced to the first two sentences, but I wanted to find a balance between excluding context, and including too much.) --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 09:19, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    I certainly do not require dictionary quotations, since that is not what WT:ATTEST allows. I cannot really infer the meaning of "courage" from the quotations, but then I am not a native speaker. Let other editors comment on the merits of the provided quotations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:25, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
    In my experience, [big] balls (without the) doesn't simply mean courage: sometimes it means assertiveness, but usually means gall, nerve or chutzpah. A former employer of mine used to say things like "you've got balls the size of an elephant to complain about that" Chuck Entz (talk) 16:00, 2 August 2014 (UTC)


I nominate the English section, not the Italian. I can't find this spelling used in English to mean café in English attestation sources. google books:"caffé", google groups:"caffé", caffé at OneLook Dictionary Search. (Was in café as an alternative spelling.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:28, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Cited. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:53, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


Supposedly a female given name Anglicised from the Irish Eithne. w:Eithne lists Ethnea, Ethlend, Ethnen, Ethlenn, Ethnenn, Eithene, Ethne, Aithne, Enya, Áine, Ena, Edna, Etney, Eithnenn, Eithlenn, Eithna, Ethni, Edlend, Edlenn, Ethniu, Ethliu, Ethlinn, and Enya as variant spellings of Eithne, but not Etna. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 12:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

List of Irish-language given names includes it, but it may deserve a handful of salt. It would want to be Anglicised, as even in Old Irish it was spelled with "-th-". (And we know it was pronounced with /θ/ because it was borrowed into Old Norse as "Eðna".)
As for "Etna", it gets drowned out by the volcano. There is
  • Women Swindlers in America, 1860-1920 p. 39
    "Extending over six years, from about 1895 until 1901, Etna Dungan of Gold Hill in southern Oregon had been in correspondence with a large number of men, all anxious to secure a wife and, under promise to marry every one of them, [] "
And a look in FamilySearch shows a non-trivial number of Etnas in Ireland, where a derivation from Eithne is more likely than from the Sicilian mountain. (Conflation with Edna is always a possibility, though.)
--Catsidhe (verba, facta) 12:27, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Searching for "Etna + (w:List of the most common surnames in Europe#Ireland)" turns up the citations I've put here. It may be possible to find some of the people named there in genealogical databases and ascertain whether or not they are Irish. In addition to "Eithne" and Mount Etna, variation of "Edna" seems like another possible source of "Etna" (but note that "Edna" says that it itself is used as an anglicization of "Eithne"). - -sche (discuss) 17:35, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(colloquial) solid". Never heard of this, and also I have not idea what sense of solid is meant. (pinging User:Stephen G. Brown as the one who added this sense). --WikiTiki89 18:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Too many years ago. I probably had some specific example in mind, but I don’t remember it now. Removed. —Stephen (Talk) 23:06, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I'll take a look at this but there are some senses and "solid" should probably be restored. The term "добрый" could also mean "good", "solid" as in "добрая половина" - "good few" (a big half), "ждал добрых два часа" - "waited for good two hours", "идти добрых десять километров" - "to go a good ten kilometres". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:15, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Restored the sense with a usage example. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:20, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm satisfied and withdraw the nomination. But is it really only colloquial? --WikiTiki89 02:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it's colloquial. This won't be used in the formal speech/writing. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:13, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


Is yandere attestable in English? If not, it might make sense to move it to ヤンデレ and reformat. Whym (talk) 09:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

It should be. It's certainly a word I recognise and understand. The quote I added is a use, but there are a few others of mentions in "Geek" dictionaries. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 10:16, 30 July 2014 (UTC)
Is Citations:yandere sufficient to close this as passed? Equinox 19:27, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, thanks to Cloudcuckoolander and Catsidhe, it now looks fine to me. I would like to withdraw this, if that matters. Whym (talk) 19:24, 8 August 2014 (UTC)


Google Books: only one result, and it's "anti-Quranic" (caps and hyphen). Google Groups: zero results. Equinox 17:38, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

collective punisherEdit

This exists, but I’m unable to find durable citations. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:45, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I found one, now on the Citations page. Choor monster (talk) 17:12, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I found a second one, unfortunately an unpublished, undated, working paper, but I added it to the Citations page anyway. Presumably it will eventually be published, but these things often exist in limbo for a long time. Choor monster (talk) 20:25, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
The rationale for this (and collective punishment, collective responsibility, and collective guilt) is that the term has a relatively specific meaning in international law. Shouldn't there be law journal articles at Google Scholar? DCDuring TALK 22:09, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I found the first cite using Lexis. If it's a specific term of international law, it's in relevant dictionaries, and passes the Lemming test. Choor monster (talk) 14:11, 1 August 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but apparently not listed. - -sche (discuss) 17:33, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but apparently not listed. - -sche (discuss) 17:34, 31 July 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Multiple zeros within a number.

Tagged but not listed. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:39, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Lugaid mac Con RoíEdit

Cú RoíEdit

Does mythology count as a fictional universe? 'Cause I really don't think these guys' names are used out of context in an attributive sense, in either English or Irish. (So this RFV applies to both languages and if it fails, I'm requesting that the whole pages be deleted.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:44, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Oy vey, there are 74 pages in Category:en:Irish mythology, many of which could probably be subsumed under this RFV, but I just don't have the time to go through them all now. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:56, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I wouldn't count mythology as a fictional universe. People misuse the word fictional to mean anything that (in their belief) is not factual, but really fiction implies a specific genre, in which the plot is intended to be understood as not being factual. --WikiTiki89 22:37, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
I agree, old mythologies are different from fiction, and I dispute that WT:FICTION applies to old mythologies. Certainly, all of WT:FICTION's examples are works of (modern) fiction rather than mythologies. For new stories which are mythological/religious stories according to some and fictional stories according to others (e.g. the stories of Gerald Gardner or L Ron Hubbard), the situation is less clear.
We do have a separate policy that "No individual person should be listed as a sense in any entry whose page title includes both a given name or diminutive and a family name or patronymic." But there's disagreement on whether or not that policy should be enforced when the person in question was important to a mythology or religion — see WT:RFD#محمد بن عبد الله — so "Lugaid mac Con Roí" is potentially still in a grey area. (Bah.) - -sche (discuss) 01:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Speaking as someone with an interest in Irish Onomastics, I'd say that the name elements are dictionary-worthy, but to include a full person's name as a name seems encyclopaedic and out of scope. See, eg, Badb: As a word, it's the name of a goddess. For further details, history, great feats, symbology, etc, etc; the Wikipedia entry exists.

In this instance, Lugaid is a name. Cú Roí is a name. Lugaid mac Con Roí is a person. He serves as an attestation of the name elements, an example of them in use, but this place is a dictionary, not a who's-who.

Similarly, I'd say that Finn is a lemma, definition "an Old Irish name, Descendants Irish: Fionn", but Finn mac Cumail, or Fionn mac Cumhail, or Finn MacCool are not. He's an attestation of the name, and there might be an argument for a (not-exhaustive) list of noteworthy bearers of the name, but I submit that we distinguish between names as words, and names as people. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 01:56, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

August 2014Edit

billet bargeEdit

All I can find is one hit of the plural, which I added to the entry. - -sche (discuss) 21:09, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

There are tons of hits on Usenet, and they're clearly supporting the sense in the entry. Smurrayinchester (talk) 21:25, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
good point. RFV withdrawn. - -sche (discuss) 21:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

make outEdit

Rfv-sense: (intransitive) To succeed in seducing; to have sex. —Mr. Granger (talk • [Special:Contributions/Mr. Granger|contribs]]) 23:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

I think so. 'make out' = "succeed, turn out well/as expected"...I can certainly see this used in certain contexts. For instance: I took Jennifer out for the first time last night. As you know, I've been trying to get in her panties for a long time. (Friend): Yeah, so did you make out? --this could also be interpreted as "Did you kiss each other/have a make-out session. Leasnam (talk) 00:31, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
But that's just because of the context. You can't say that the word "succeed" means to "to have sex", just because it can also be used in that context. --WikiTiki89 01:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


Danish entry. Rfded mistakenly, so I brought it here. I haven't sought cites.​—msh210 (talk) 07:07, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

This is an inflected form. The problem is that multiple editors opposed applying RFV to inflected forms. I don't oppose this RFV, though. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:26, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
I've commented before, and at least one user has agreed, that we should distinguish between individual slots in inflection tables that don't happen to be attested, and entire sections that are (or are alleged to be) unattested; i.e. I would distinguish between cases where something like mitternachtsblauen only gets two (or zero) hits as the neuter mixed genitive form of mitternachtsblau but enough other forms get hits to confirm that mitternachtsblau inflects, vs cases where no inflected forms at all are attested (suggesting the adjective is invariant), or no comparative or superlative forms are attested (suggesting it isn't gradable), etc. In this case, the claim made on Talk:midnatten, and by the references cited there, and by da:midnat, is that this term is invariant and has no inflected forms at all. Against that claim, I've so far found two uses of midnatten in books published in Copenhagen in the 1800s. Perhaps inflection of midnat is an archaic or obsolete phenomenon. - -sche (discuss) 20:51, 3 August 2014 (UTC)
Keep. I set Danish as search language in Google Books and got these relevant results on the first page of the search for 21st century books [32][33][34][35][36]. Altogether, there were 44 hits, but about half of them are either Swedish or reprints from older books. The relatively low number is partly explained by the fact that "in the midnight" is expressed with indefinite article in Danish: "ved midnat". --Hekaheka (talk) 04:40, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Keep and other definite forms without verifications. Also for entries in Swedish, Norwegian, Albanian (inflected or suffixed), Abkhaz (prefixed) and any other language with prefixed/suffixed definite forms, not Arabic or Hebrew, where the article is not part of the lemma, unless a term is only used with a definite article, like place names. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:18, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Midnat is sometimes used in plural indefinite [37][38] and plural definite [39][40] forms. --Hekaheka (talk) 06:26, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
The entry was created by a native speaker and tagged for deletion by a da-1 based on a grammar reference. I could see maybe tagging this as proscribed or adding a usage note, but this whole exercise seems mostly like a waste of time. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:21, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I have added a translation table and usage notes to midnat. --Hekaheka (talk) 21:33, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Don't you mean inflection table? --WikiTiki89 02:18, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I do - inflection table. --Hekaheka (talk) 13:28, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
  • RFV passed: cites are linked above by Hekaheka. The task of copying them to Wiktionary can be left to the original nominator Donnanz (Talk:midnatten). --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:55, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


I don't seem to be able to find attestation (WT:ATTEST) in durably archived attestation sources: google books:"paraskevodekatriaphobia", google groups:"paraskevodekatriaphobia", paraskevodekatriaphobia at OneLook Dictionary Search.

As a simple solution, paraskevodekatriaphobia should be moved back to paraskavedekatriaphobia, from which it was moved on 29 May 2014‎. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:16, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

The only spelling I see in Google Books is paraskevidekatriophobia, which is based on Modern Greek, rather than Ancient Greek. Even that may very well be only mentions. Maybe it should be moved to Appendix:Unattested phobias. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:32, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
For paraskavedekatriaphobia, there are Citations:paraskavedekatriaphobia from permanently recorded media, albeit somewhat mentiony to me. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:59, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
It has no bearing on the rfv, but this term is an etymological train wreck. In Ancient Greek, παρασκευή (paraskeuḗ) simply meant preparation, and was probably closer in pronunciation to "paraskewe". In Judaic contexts such as biblical translations it could refer to the day before the Sabbath, when observant Jews would prepare everything so they wouldn't have to work on the Sabbath itself. Since the Sabbath is on Saturday, that makes the term a very restricted synonym for Friday, but probably not a common one outside those contexts. The widespread adoption of Christianity and thus the change to being the general Greek word for Friday approximately coincided with two sound changes: υ between vowels became v, and η became i.
That means that "paraskeve" meaning "Friday" would require combining elements from different time periods, while "paraskevi" would mean using Modern Greek in a context which is normally strictly Ancient Greek. User:Pyprilescu tried to avoid the issue by moving to a compromise spelling, not considering that we go by usage rather than by etymological correctness. I suspect that whoever coined the term looked up Friday in a Modern Greek dictionary, and the "paraskeve" was an attempt to normalize the Modern Greek romanization, "paraskevi" to the way Ancient Greek is romanized in scientific terms.
At any rate, I think the best course of action is to treat this as an rfv of all the spellings of the term. If any of them passes (paying careful attention to the use/mention distinction), it should be moved to the most common spelling that passes and any other spellings that pass should become alternative spellings. If none of them pass, it should be moved to Appendix:Unattested phobias. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:52, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Is there even a (gentile) Ancient Greek word for Friday? Some calque of dies Veneris, perhaps, e.g. ἡμέρα τῆς Ἀφροδίτης? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:14, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
Good point. I shouldn't have talked about commonness without knowing anything about how the ancient Greeks referred to the different days. If I had to guess, I'd say it would be some derivation from ἕκτος (héktos). I vaguely recall reading something about the custom of naming days after gods being a later borrowing from a foreign source. Chuck Entz (talk)
Pedantic point, but I think the days were named directly after the planets and thus only indirectly after the gods. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:53, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
True. After looking at the article on the w:Attic calendar and w:Roman calendar, it occurred to me that there may not have even been a widely-used system of 7-day weeks in Greece until the Romans instituted theirs in the early years of the Roman Empire. The earlier Roman nundinal week was based on an 8-day system, but I see nothing mentioned for Greece except the division of lunar months into thirds. I'm sure the Greeks were well aware of the 7-day systems of the Near East, but I wonder if anyone really used them. The lack of an accepted Ancient Greek name for Friday would certainly explain why a Modern Greek name was used. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)


Does not look attested in use: google books:"apikorosim", google groups:"apikorosim", apikorosim at OneLook Dictionary Search. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:23, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

It's a malformed (in spelling and definition) plural of apikoros, correct plural apikorsim. Choor monster (talk) 16:00, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
Note that the incorrect plural (I wouldn't call it "malformed", since it is the regularly formed plural of a noun with a slightly irregular plural) is used occasionally in both Hebrew and English, but it is nevertheless still a plural of apikoros. --WikiTiki89 16:10, 4 August 2014 (UTC)


Can't see it with the small Z in Google Books. In general, concerned that PaM is adding a lot of barely- or un-attestable terms relating to a pet topic (anti-Judaism) without checking whether they meet CFI. Equinox 19:44, 3 August 2014 (UTC)


Moved from RFD. It literally means the world's oldest profession, and reference to prostitution seems to be always an explanation rather than euphemism. I’m wondering whether there is a euphemistic usage without directly mentioning prostitution. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 08:06, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

My attempt:
  1. あなたの州のどこかでは世界最古の職業も合法なんでしょうけれど、自分のパティスリーを開くために体を売りたかったら、ここでもできるわ、ジョナス。
  2. ほう、一体あらたまって何のことかい」「その、っまり成人男子の観光客がだね、世界最古の職業に従事している現地女性とだね... ...」「何だ、そのことか... ...」と、ジャンは吹き出した。
@TAKASUGI Shinji: would you consider usages such as above euphemistic? Also, would translations from other languages count, such as the 2nd example? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:48, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
The sentences above don’t sound very natural, but I think it is attested. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:32, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

oved elilimEdit

Another sloppy anti-Jew-topic entry. The -s plural doesn't seem to exist anywhere, and the term itself seems (i) not CFI-attestable and (ii) not English, just a rare transliteration from Hebrew or some such. Equinox 16:09, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, it's from a Hebrew phrase meaning "servant/slave of gods". I didn't have time when I saw this earlier to search thoroughly, but I don't remember seeing anything that wasn't referring to it as a term used in Hebrew rather than using it to describe something. While I'm glad that the loaded term heathen was removed, I suspect the phrase might at least sometimes legitimately refer to actual pagans rather than to just any non-Jew. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:03, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
In Hebrew: עוׂבֵד אֱלִילִים (worshiper of idols). @Equinox, I don't find anything particularly anti-Jewish about this. --WikiTiki89 14:35, 5 August 2014 (UTC)


Two senses: one is the trendy cis/trans Tumblr teen politics thing, and the other one is chemistry. I doubt we can CFI-attest either. Equinox 09:33, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Gender identity is now "trendy Tumblr teen politics"? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:38, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
@Angr, if you delete words (as from "trendy cis/trans Tumblr teen politics" to "trendy Tumblr teen politics"), you can't still expect it to mean the same thing. --WikiTiki89 14:45, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
The "cis/trans" part unquestionably refers to gender identity. It was the other descriptors I was questioning. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:50, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Comment: at the time I added the chemistry sense to transphobia, I checked for citations of cisphobia and couldn't find any (and therefore didn't create the entry). Checking Google Books + Scholar now, I find exactly one citation and it is very mention-y: 2012, Laura Palazzani, Gender in Philosophy and Law (ISBN 9400749910), page 101: "One could then speak of 'cisphobia' or 'heterophobia', claiming adequate protection for cisgender and straight persons." - -sche (discuss) 15:17, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I've added one citation from Google Groups for the gender identity–related sense. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 16:54, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Cited the gender-identity sense. One Google Books hit and several magazine and newspaper hits (although the newspapers are mostly college and high school ones). Issuu is kind of the go-to website if you want to try to cite neologisms and slang, as there's a lot of college/university and local alternative publications archived there. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 00:59, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
There's too many quotes that quoting or paraphrasing Piers Morgan for me to feel really comfortable, but it seems cited. I for one have trouble using Issuu, since it doesn't play nice with Flash not automatically being loaded, but it does look like a useful tool for those with access.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:05, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
And the first real use comes after Piers Morgan's February 5th 2014 tweet claiming he was victim of cisphobia. You've put a lot of work into citing it, but it's still real marginal.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Yeah. The Selby, Edwards, Sarkesian, Wright, and Searce citations are all "verbatim or near-verbatim quotations or translations of a single original source", namely Piers Morgan (they even use quotation marks), so they aren't independent of each other, but any one of them can count — I'd go with Selby, since it's most clearly using rather than mentioning the term, IMO. (To be clear, the others can still be listed on the citations page or in the article, they just don't count towards the three-use threshold.) Valenzuela has a use independent of Morgan, which brings us to two uses. But the Maresca citation is mention-y, and crucially, the 2012 citation (the only one which would bring this over the one-year threshold) is also very mention-y. If this is judged not to meet CFI at this time, could we hot-word-ify it? I expect it will unambiguously meet CFI a year from now, assuming the excellent resource Cloudcuckoolander has found (Issuu) is still around to give us easy access to more college papers at that time. - -sche (discuss) 02:56, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
The word is used several times in this thesis. Are theses acceptable as citations? Universities tend to keep copies of students' theses on file, don't they? -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 03:37, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I'd say theses are acceptable, yes. The point of them is that they're contributions to world knowledge, and universities do in general keep printed copies of them, and other researchers do manage to access and cite those copies. I'd say they're comparable to the myriad non-famous mediaeval manuscripts that various universities also keep. - -sche (discuss) 04:04, 7 August 2014 (UTC)


Discussion moved from WT:RFD#Deletion of entry "ವುತ್ತು".

The entry "ವುತ್ತು" should be deleted. I speak Kannada, the language for which that entry was created, and I have never heard that word, and cannot find attestations anywhere, even on the Internet.

Princeps linguae (talk) 01:47, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Really? Because it took me about 1 minute, not reading the language, to find attestation, like at [41] and on Google Books [42].--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:55, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
See, actually knowing the language, I can conclude that (a) the first example was a typo for "ಮತ್ತು," and (b) the second example was a Google Books misreading. You'll notice that all the "attestations" for "ವುತ್ತು" are from Google Books, because Google Books is not perfect, especially at reading non-Latin scripts. If it's a word for "and," which is a fairly common word, why can I find "ವುತ್ತು" less than five times outside of Google Books misreadings? (They're probably typos.)
Either way, this belongs at WT:RFV. --WikiTiki89 13:56, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
No, it definitely is not a word. I found less than five examples that were not from Google Books (which are all just misreadings), and those are probably typos for an actual word meaning "and" that is spelled and sounded very similarly, and appears very similar ("ವುತ್ತು" is the contested entry, "ಮತ್ತು" is the actual word).
RFV is where we determine whether words exist or not. Here at RFD, we determine whether a word that does exist is worthy of inclusion or not. --WikiTiki89 15:17, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll do that.

The entry "ವುತ್ತು" should be deleted. It's defined as "and." I speak Kannada, the language for which that entry was created, and I have never heard that word, and cannot find attestations anywhere, even on the Internet. I requested deletion and I have some information there supporting this claim.

Princeps linguae (I couldn't sign with the tildes)

Delete. I agree that it is not a word. Whenever it appears, it is a typo for ಮತ್ತು, which looks almost the same. —Stephen (Talk) 15:37, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
We could keep this as a common misspelling if it has enough citations. Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 17:53, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
We could, I suppose, but the language is completely phonetic, so misspellings are very rare. "Typo" would probably be more accurate. And the typo only occurs less than five times on the Internet... Princeps linguae (talk) 18:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)


Ungoliant (falai) 17:18, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Not in the OED and no hits at OneLook. Also no usage at And not even any usages vaguely consistent with this definition on the unfiltered web. It doesn't look good for this one. -- · (talk) 22:44, 5 August 2014 (UTC)
Delete. The word can't be found in any dictionary in which I looked; a brief Internet search evinces three pages of results, and no attestation at all. Princeps linguae (talk) 17:37, 6 August 2014 (UTC)


Looks like a protologism. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:44, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

And look at all of the synonyms. They all are red links, and look like SOPs to me. "image with citation" just seems like it means an image with a citation for example. Why not remove at least the ones that we know are SOPs, which I bet are all of them? Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 17:46, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
Good idea. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:51, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
I think this was simply borrowed from the name of the website "" That website posts "imcites" and the website's Facebook page gives the same etymology as the Wiktionary page. That's the only attestation that can be found as far as I can see--just the website and its Facebook page. Princeps linguae (talk) 18:29, 6 August 2014 (UTC)


(rfv-sense): who proscribed it? Couldn't find any prove that the word is proscribed by anyone.--Jamie Tubers (talk) 11:54, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

You must not have looked in the right places. For example, Theodore Bernstein in The Careful Writer, 1965. Garner's Modern American Usage (2009), very useful for this kind of thing, puts the "ed" form at 2 on its Language-Change Index, which means "Widely shunned". Language writers and editors have voted with their pencils and keyboards 34 to 1 c. 2008 for broadcast over broadcasted in "had been broadcast(ed)" (past participle) and 25 to 1 for broadcast over broadcasted in "they broadcast(ed). DCDuring TALK 13:29, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Some dictionaries show "broadcasted" as a secondary form in the US, but COCA has US writers, editors, and speakers voting 105 to 2 for broadcast over broadcasted in usage of the form "[nominative/subject pronoun] + broadcast(ed)".
Looking at some of usage of broadcasted at Google Books, it seems that computer tech writing might be using broadcasted more than other writing. DCDuring TALK 13:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Striking as no rfv proposal is being made. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:49, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


"briedis" in Lithuanian is it w:elk or w:moose, or both? --Xoristzatziki (talk) 13:16, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Per w:lt:Briedis, it's Alces alces, which is called "elk" in Europe and "moose" in North America. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The original English sense of elk, Alces alces, is what we refer to in the US as a moose. The red deer, Cervus elaphus in England is pretty much equivalent to the wapiti, Cervus canadensis , which is what we refer to in the US as elk. Animals which we refer to as deer in the US, such as the white-tailed deer, Odocoileus virginianus, and the mule deer, Odocoileus hemionus, aren't found in Europe, while the roe deer, Capreolus capreolus, and fallow deer, Dama dama, aren't found in the US. Moral of the story: common names can be confusing, so we should put taxonomic names in entries such as this. I've fixed the entry.
For future reference: rfv-sense is for verifying usage. With questions such as this, it's best to go to the Information Desk or the Tea Room. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:59, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Striking as no rfv proposal is being made. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:48, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

dei gratiaEdit

Why do we spell this with minuscule "d"? All other dictionaries in Onelook have chosen to capitalize it and so have about 90 % of books that I could find in BGC. Shouldn't the various names of God (Lord, Almighty, Our Father, God Almighty..) always be capitalized in English? --Hekaheka (talk) 13:45, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

What matters is actual usage, so the 9-to-1 preference you found at BGC counts for much more than what other dictionaries say and what we feel "should be capitalized in English". In other words, yes, this should be moved to Dei gratia. (Note that Deo volente is already capitalized.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:50, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, if it is used with a capital letter, then that's how it should be. In any case, "dei" should be capitalized because it is referring to God, with a capital "g." Princeps linguae (talk) 14:31, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Whether or not dei is referring to God, we should capitalize it as per the sources.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:39, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
I've moved it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:54, 7 August 2014 (UTC)


The Google Books hits are scannos of original. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:05, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Speedied: clear inventions (look at the nonsense etymologies that were originally there). Equinox 22:21, 7 August 2014 (UTC)


By the same user. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Speedied: clear inventions (look at the nonsense etymologies that were originally there). Equinox 22:21, 7 August 2014 (UTC)


All senses (adjective, noun, and verb). There seems to be one citation here, but it's not immediately obvious to me what part of speech is intended.

The one citation I've found is Google Groups but seemingly not Usenet. Some users have been arguing that only Usenet should be considered durably archived, not the rest of Google Groups, but my understanding was that the reason we consider Usenet durably archived is because it's available on Google Groups. So it seems to me that the rest of Google Groups should be considered durably archived by the same logic. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:35, 7 August 2014 (UTC)


By the same user. Both of these are by the same user who created giginal and pebinal, above, which were speedied. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 22:42, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Speedied per above. Nothing meaningful to be found. Equinox 19:35, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

peas and carrotsEdit

This may very well exist, but I would like some citations. --WikiTiki89 20:36, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I think it's only used in similes along the lines of "They go together like peas and carrots." The way the definition is currently worded it ought to be "They are peas and carrots", and I'm not sure that exists. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:42, 8 August 2014 (UTC)
"I saw peats and carrots walking on the street" simply does not work. I think Angr is right > delete. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:28, 10 August 2014 (UTC)


RFV-sense "To be known or considered." This seems to be limited to the collocation go by (as in his name is Samuel but he goes by Sam), which we (for better or worse) have a separate entry for. Notably, both Random House and Merriam-Webster have a comparable sense under go rather than under go by, but their only usage examples are of "go by". - -sche (discuss) 22:35, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

I have heard usage like this and this, but I'm not sure "be known or considered" is a good gloss of that — and I'm not sure if it belongs at go or at go under. - -sche (discuss) 02:46, 9 August 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (childish) Penis.

I created this from Wikisaurus:penis. Any attestation? google books:"dingy", google groups:"dingy", dingy at OneLook Dictionary Search. Also google books:"with your dingy", google groups:"with your dingy", with your dingy at OneLook Dictionary Search.

An informal extra-process question to the native speakers: from memory, do you recognize this word as meaning "penis"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:26, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't recognise it. There are thingy and dingus, however. Equinox 10:49, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
I also do not recognise it, but I would know what its referring to if used in context, and it seems very plausible. It looks like a diminutive (or child-language form) of ding-dong, using the first element + -y. Though i dont withcall it per se, im sure i must have heard it over the years....somewhere...Leasnam (talk) 16:03, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
w:Ruth Wallis recorded a song called "Davy's Dinghy", which is full of double-entendres based on this sense, but it obviously doesn't attest the spelling. It's not easy verifying anything, because the adjective sense is very common, and because the boat is spelled in a variety of ways.
This sense is attested with the spelling dingie, which has less interference from the adjective and boat senses, but I was also finally able to find this and this, this and this.
The entry needs work, since there are two pronunciations, at least one more sense, and more etymologies:
Etymology 1
Pronounced as /ˈdɪn.dʒi/
Adjective: drab; shabby; dirty; squalid
Etymology 2: somehow related to dingbat
Pronounced as /ˈdɪŋi/
Adjective: ditzy, silly, a little crazy
Etymology 3: the y seems to be the diminutive suffix -y
Pronounced as /ˈdɪŋi/
Noun: penis
Etymology 4
Pronounced as /ˈdɪŋi/
Noun: Alternative spelling of dinghy
There's also the matter of dingie, which is attested as an alternative spelling and/or misspelling of most (probably all) of the senses of dingy. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:58, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


Wonderfool entry. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Hundreds from this year can be found like

[43] [44]. From 2012 we have this one. I haven't got the knowhow to put these quotes up --Type56op9 (talk) 21:03, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

These aren’t durably archived. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


Wonderfool entry. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:24, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: A portmanteau derived from "Tolkien Hollywood", used to describe the cinematographic presentation of the stories in J. R. R. Tolkien's Legendarium. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:34, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


I don't think this spelling and capitalization is attested. We have anti-Muslimism, which seems okay. I am okay with speedy delete of this as obviously unattested. Attesting quotations can be placed at Citations:antiMuslimism either way. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:31, 12 August 2014 (UTC)

PaM added three citations to the entry, but one of them is a mention. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:56, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
And all three actually use a hyphen: [45], [46], [47]. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 17:03, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
It looks like the hyphens in use there are a result of indentions and a combination of a page layout that leaves space for thin clumns and a relatively long word. In the instances cited, it looks more like a text editing feature which rejects left text alignment and instead goes for left-right text margin alignment resukting in forced hyphenation for sentence break purposes. Pass a Method (talk) 10:36, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
The first source is not using the hyphen on a line break, and the article also uses the word "anti-Muslim" with a hyphenated spelling.
The second source uses the word once at a line break, and then again, a few words later, not at a line break. They use the hyphen both times.
The third source uses the spelling "anti-Muslimism" when the word does not occur at a line break.
So it's clear to me that all three sources intended the spelling "anti-Muslimism". —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 14:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
First of all i apologize for fucking up the citations, i wasn't really paying attention. Secondly, antiMuslimism has at least a few more attestations, although i'm reluctant to post them as a reference as i think its best for you to see them first hand. As far as i know the optical character recognition used on Google books does sometimes mistake punctuation marks on its current artificial software, nevertheless, the automatic identification and data capture is unlikely to have erreneously scanned the unicodes on these books on each occasion. Therefore, i would like to initiate a more even-handed approach to finding sources by collaborating with you or others. Pass a Method (talk) 15:57, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I looked through the first 20 results and they are all either scanos for the hyphenated version anti-Muslimism or (rarely) the lower-case version antimuslimism. --WikiTiki89 16:16, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Deleted (somewhat speedily / ahead of schedule). - -sche (discuss) 05:45, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


RFV of both senses in the English L2. I can't find any evidence of the cigarette sense, and nothing for the Haida sense that unambiguously uses it as a noun and not some sort of title. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:38, 13 August 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "to go quickly" Added back in 2008 by an anon user with this explanation: "New page: Added definition of jot "to go quickly" I have seen this usage in literature (e.g. Enid Blyton). I found multiple occurences of this usage on the Internet (google "jot over"). Interesting…". The usex seems to be made up by himself, and it has been cited on dozens of websites. The little usage I found in BGC would indicate that "jot over" has been used to mean to drop by (we didn't jot over that bar yet) or to go through (we jotted over the records of last 3 years). Works of Enid Blyton did not appear among 120 first hits. --Hekaheka (talk) 08:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

There was short discussion on this on Feedback pages. Here's one comment:
Perhaps not erroneous, but it certainly seems to be rare. I searched b.g.c for "jot over" and found nothing relevant. Then I searched for "jotted over" and found only two relevant hits. "Jotted over" most commonly seems to mean the same as "dotted over", e.g. "He had strolled away to a little headland, jotted over with rocks and aged tree-trunks" and "Here also the groups representing the passages included in this portion of sacred history are jotted over the field, often interfering with one another." Then I searched for "jotting over" and found only hits meaning "jutting over", i.e. protruding over. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:56, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Sounds suspicious to me. Perhaps confusion of jog with trot?! Equinox 08:38, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
There is also jolt over/jolted over which seems to fit the meaning indicated. Perhaps a misspelling? Leasnam (talk) 03:56, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

nước mắmEdit

Supposedly English. Needs cites in this orthography. DCDuring TALK 10:08, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

It's easy finding English sentences using this spelling, but much harder deciding whether the term is being used as English or as Vietnamese. I'll see if I can come up with some good examples. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:19, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
I view this as a kind of test case. I won't challenge other terms with similar orthography if this turns out to be attestable. If it is attestable, we should create the category of which it is currently the sole member. DCDuring TALK 15:41, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
Would Hà Nội or Việt Nam (with Vietnamese diacritics) be attestable as English terms? In any case, we have examples of Romanian, Turkish, etc., etc, spellings used in English, Japanese macrons, e.g. Tōkyō are also common. It's hard to verify, though. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:57, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
Two tests I’ve seen people using to determine whether the author considers the term a loanword instead of a foreign word are:
  1. the term is unitalicised;
  2. the inflected forms of the term use English desinences.
Number 2 is inapplicable in this case, since nước mắm is uncountable. As for unitalicised uses, I’ve only found this one. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


English: "(slang) a single serving of beer (such as in a can or bottle), used as a mock currency"

Could be. DCDuring TALK 10:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


I'm sure there should be an Azeri sense with this spelling, but I am wildly skeptical of the idea that this could be an English spelling of the word.--Prosfilaes (talk) 12:14, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Alt forms are worth a look too. Apparently I created qepiq but I'm not finding much for that either. Equinox 13:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
The English spelling is qapik or gapik (phonetic rendering), ultimately from Russian копе́йка (kopéjka). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:58, 20 August 2014 (UTC)


RFV-sense "(philosophy) Among the Sophists, the topics of rational argument." The sense is not present in other dictionaries and I am not sure it was even intended to apply to the English word logos — I think it may have just been a comment on how the Ancient Greek word was used. The citations turned up by google books:logos Sophists "rational argument" suggest this is the case — in them, the word occurs in italics and/or quotation marks or parentheses, and in phrases that suggest it is being mentioned rather than being used. - -sche (discuss) 04:24, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


RFV-sense: "Different symbols, written or spoken, arranged together in a unique sequence that approximates a thought in a person's mind." As written, this would seem to include even a (multi-term) sequence of symbols like "this does not make sense", which approximates the thought I had when I read the sense. Such a sense is not present in other dictionaries I checked. It needs to be shown to be both attested and distinct from (=a better definition for any citations that support it than) the other senses in the entry, particularly sense 1, sense 1.2, and senses 4–8. - -sche (discuss) 04:53, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd have thought best case scenario the wording is poor. Spoken words aren't made up of symbols! Not all words are made of a unique sequence of symbols (centre/center for example). Renard Migrant (talk) 11:06, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
But the intent of the definition clearly seems to be that word and concept are synonymous or identical. DCDuring TALK 13:00, 19 August 2014 (UTC)


We now have our first hot word that was added more than a year ago. So following the procedure, we should re-evaluate it. —CodeCat 13:49, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

The first amendment to the procedure should be to have the automatic RfV be at least 13 months after the first use. The cites I've added are probably not durably archived, being from the Smithsonian online. The first was apparently the initial public release of information and the second was their celebration of the first anniversary to the announcement. DCDuring TALK 11:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I think this comment is for olinguito. Renard Migrant (talk) 11:34, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree. An RFV exactly 12 months later is probably going to fail on practical matters... —CodeCat 20:42, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
If we want to give Google Books a chance to generate cites, at least cites not directly copied from Wikipedia, we would probably want to wait at least 18 months. Similarly for Scholar. OTOH, News and Usenet cites could be quicker, so even 13 months might be enough. I'd prefer at least 18 months. More than two years seems too long if this approach is to work at all. DCDuring TALK 22:18, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Two recent on-line magazines Smithsonian, Science News, and one TV news show (with transcript) PBS that discuss the olinguito, "one year later".
  • “One question that was on everybody’s lips last year was: Could any animal be more adorable than the olinguito,” Helgen says. “And of course the answer is a baby olinguito.” Choor monster (talk) 13:05, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
    It's just a question of whether the sites are "durably archived". DCDuring TALK 13:29, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
    That's why I put the links/citations here. But I believe it's clear where this is going: of course there are going to be more olinguito stories, and some of them are going to be MSM even. Choor monster (talk) 15:35, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I liked the cite about 'crowd-sourced' science from PBS and added it. I had seen the piece when it aired, but had forgotten about it. Thanks. DCDuring TALK 15:41, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I found a "journal" cite at Google Books dated September 1, 2014. That should do it. DCDuring TALK 13:13, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


Re sense 3: "a form of looped and knotted lace needlework made from a single thread". In every dictionary I've checked, "tat" in reference to lacework is only a verb, the noun being "tatting". JudahH (talk) 16:00, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

In case you don't have access to the full Oxford English Dictionary, it has no less than eight separate noun entries for "tat", and not one of them matches sense 3. I agree that the correct noun for this sense is tatting. The disputed sense was added by CharlieHuang nearly eight years ago and is the only English entry by this now-inactive editor. I'm surprised that it hasn't been challenged before. Dbfirs 16:19, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

mes (Latvian)Edit

Archaic/regional variant of mēs. Čumbavamba (talkcontribs) says it doesn’t exist.

@Pereru: do you have any comment? — Ungoliant (falai) 20:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

@Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV: Basically what I wrote on your talk page: that mes is mentioned in dictionaries (LEV, and a dictionary of dialectal terms mentioned in the LLVV) as a dialectal variant. I don't think you can find any attestations of this form in available materials; it may be cited somewhere in some work on dialectal variants, but chances are that it is not readily accessible online. All standard Latvian texts will of course have the standarad form mēs. (An orthographic variant mes could possibly be found in pre-19th-century texts, before length was consistently marked in Latvian spelling, but this is not the same thing: the word did have the long ē vowel, they simply didn't mark it then. This is not the same as a dialectal variant that actually has a real short e.). So, to me, the question here is: what attestation criteria are used for rare dialectal forms that can be quoted only from dictionaries or other sources where the forms are mentioned but not used? Is one such quote enough (in this case, the one quote from the LEV that I cite in the article on the standard form mēs)? --Pereru (talk) 03:44, 23 August 2014 (UTC) I add here that, depending on the criteria used here, a number of other Latvian dialectal variants that I've added to Wiktionary (see Category:Latvian dialectal terms) may have to be removed. --Pereru (talk) 03:46, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

@Pereru: Ok, if this word is mentioned in dictionaries as archaic form, we can to keep it. However this word doesn't exist in modern days. --Čumbavamba (talk) 19:53, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


This looks like another instance of a Middle English word being not only propped up under an English header, but given more sense-lines than there are citations of it. google books:(byspel|byspels) that (with that added in an attempt to weed out non-English books) finds only dictionaries, Scots, dictionaries of Scots, Middle English, Old English, miscellaneous non-English, one citation which is already in the entry, and this:

  • 1866 (1874), Sidney Gilpin, The Songs and Ballads of Cumberland:
    Thou byspel, I'll shoot.

- -sche (discuss) 07:46, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

    • 1897, Lord Ernest William Hamilton, The Outlaws of the Marches:
      [...] I thought was none too well beloved of many present, and the King's dislike of him was as marked and clear to all as was his liking for his cousin Lord Bothwell; for cousins they surely were in spite of my lord's father being but a byspell so to speak.
    • 1983, Marianne Powell, Fabula Docet:
      Helmut de Boor offers a similarly narrow definition of the nature of morals to be drawn from fables. Opposing "bispel" and fable he sums up the differences as regards this aspect: "The bispel aims at cognition, the fable gives practical knowledge, and in so far as an educational aim is involved the bispel aims at improving man, the fable at making him wiser."
    • 1992, W.N. Herbert, To Circumjack MacDiarmid:
      What is clear is that his use of glossaries conceals the origins of his own byspales as much as it elucidates his texts. ...The effort towards maturity means renouncing the stance of the 'byspale' Christ and accepting the baffled limitations of the father, Joseph.
    • 1998, Joseph Needham, Science and Civilisation in China: Volume 7:
      Such episodes and events were used to illustrate and justify more general or abstract 'philosophical' statements in much the same way as exempla or bispel 'edifying illustrative stories' were used in medieval sermons. And just as we have collections of exempla and bispel from medieval times onwards in Europe, [...]
    • 2005, Marco Fazzini, Alba Literaria:
      He is, or his mother would like him to be, on a threshold, between being awake and falling asleep, but this is the very opposite of what the 'byspale', the wondrous, precocious, uncannily unchildlike child, has in mind.
    • 2008, Janie Steen, Verse and Virtuosity:
      In adopting the bipartite structure, then, the Phoenix-poet demonstrates that this poem is a 'two-fold story,' a bispel.

Leasnam (talk) 19:36, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

How do those citations support either definition, even allowing for the spelling variation (which I would rather not)? DCDuring TALK 20:04, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
At this point I am gathering modern uses to prove this word made it securely past the Middle English period, per the original concern. Nothing more beyond that. Leasnam (talk) 20:34, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Spelling "byspel" is not supported by the above citations. Should no more quotation supporting spelling "byspel" be provided, the entry for byspel should be deleted as RFV failed, IMHO. --Dan Polansky (talk)
Check the entry Dan. There is one above dated 1866, and 2 more on the entry page spelt "byspel". This is also the spelling used for many of the Scots cites, if that makes any difference (it may not). One thing's for sure, there is a lot of variation with this word. Leasnam (talk) 14:36, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
In the entry byspel, there is one "byspel" citation for the sense of "A proverb.", one for the sense of "An example." and one for the sense of "A family outcast; bastard." So we do not have three attesting quotations per sense. As the entry is now, every sense fails WT:ATTEST, and therefore the entire entry fails it, as far as I am concerned. As for Scots cites, I don't see why Scots cites should count toward attestation of English. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:46, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Wait a minute, so what you're telling me is each sense has to have minimum 3 attests to pass? For a word labelled as obsolete and/or dialectal? Afaict, dialects fall under "all other spoken languages that are living" do they not, and therefore might require only one use or mention ? Leasnam (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
We sometimes relax the requirement of exact spelling identity for individual senses, especially for EME usage and dialect, but we certainly need three citations per sense. DCDuring TALK 18:46, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Ok, here's the breakdown and my suggestion:
In the entry (mainspace), we can merge senses 1 & 2, encompassing a story or proverb used as an example, pattern, or model for better behaviour, instruction, etc.
Merge 3-4-5 as a person marked for any quality, used as an example, and often shunned for such.
sense 6 appears to be Scots, not sure if it is used in Scottish English per se
7 is a mischievous child (see below)
8 I've never personally seen but I believe it to be Scots
the cites above (on this page):
1886, 1897 are "family outcast/black sheep"
1983 is proverb, example, model, pattern of behaviour, exemplar
1992 has one of each: first is "model, example", second is a play on the word, using same sense and the sense of "bastard, illegitimate child", so both.
1998, 2008 are "illustrative story/proverb/example"
2005 is mischievous child, or perhaps "black sheep"
thoughts? Leasnam (talk) 19:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
And I apologise if I seem a bit curt or snippy: I'm on my mobile and its extremely difficult to edit :/ Leasnam (talk) 19:48, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I object to using cites above on this page, since they are in a different spelling. Nor do I think "proverb" and "example" to be synonyms, by any stretch, and mergable to a single sense. If a spelling cannot be salvaged, it should not be. byspel at OneLook Dictionary Search. I am unaware of any WT:ATTEST relaxation for obsolete words. Century 1911 has "byspell"[48]; perhaps you will have better luck with that spelling. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:09, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Re: 'dialects fall under "all other spoken languages that are living"': I know of no such regulation or previous practice. I tend to oppose requiring only a single citation for English dialects or any other dialects. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:15, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, here it is:
"For languages well documented on the Internet, three citations in which a term is used is the minimum number for inclusion in Wiktionary. For terms in extinct languages, one use in a contemporaneous source is the minimum, or one mention is adequate subject to the below requirements. For all other spoken languages that are living, only one use or mention is adequate, subject to the following requirements:[...]".
Let's forget about what we all think, want, expect, and come together on what Wiktionary policy says. No ones going to succeed at changing minds. Byspell/byspel/bispel/byspale is a modern English word, and it is being used online. Its best to give people unfamiliar with it and who come across it for the first time its meaning(s). That's what we're here for. Leasnam (talk) 19:12, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Are you kidding us? English is listed at WT:Criteria for inclusion/Well documented languages. English, even obsolete English, is not part of "all other spoken languages that are living". Please read the above quoted part of the policy carefully again. For English, three attesting quotations are required. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:24, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I make no time for games.
Who is "us" ? Leasnam (talk) 20:12, 31 August 2014 (UTC) the disconnect this: you see the spelled form byspel as distinct from the others, and to be the page title, "byspel"(in that spelling) must have 3cites? If that is true, then I can surely agree. For me, the spelling is not what is drawing my focus, but the word as a viable whatever form it may take. .if ive missed this, please forgive me .Leasnam (talk) 20:18, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
I would prefer it be under the form which occurs most, which users are most likely to run into, be it as byspell, bispel, or byspale Leasnam (talk) 20:25, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, a sentence containing "byspell" or "bispel" is not attesting "byspel", not by my lights; other editor may take a different stance. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:34, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
Gotcha. Ok :) Leasnam (talk) 20:50, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but not listed. — Ungoliant (falai) 11:21, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Three citations added, with more available on Google Books. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 12:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

tomato tomatoEdit

tomato, tomatoEdit

Please attest these spellings. --WikiTiki89 19:56, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

  1. 'tomato, tomato', but needs a lot of context
  2. 1996, C. C. Benison, Death at Buckingham Palace, page 121:
    "Presumptive, then. Robin is heir presumptive to this title." "Apparent, presumptive. Tomato, tomato."
  3. 2013, Gary Fincke, Sorry I Worried You, page 189:
    He looked at his wife and repeated "Potato, potato; tomato, tomato," three times before Sarah began.
  4. 2010, Robert Rave, Waxed, page 83:
    I was thinking of Italian,” Sofia says, sliding open a drawer and pulling out a large three-ring binder filled with menus. “And by 'making Italian' you mean ordering from Piccolo's,” Scott says. “You say order, I say make. Tomato, tomato,” Sofia says
  5. 2011, Lutishia Lovely, ‎Michele Grant, ‎Cydney Rax, Crush, page 266:
    Tomato, tomato. Same difference.
  6. 2012, Elizabeth Lennox, The Billionaire's Elusive Lover:
    "Oh, you must be asking if I've humanized any part of your organization lately." “Tomato, tomato," he mimicked, changing the accent for the same word.
  7. "Tomato!" "Tomato!"
  8. ? An interesting one with yet another spelling (tom-ot-oh and tam-at-oh).
  9. 'tomato/tomato'

I didn't find instances of tomato tomato without punctuation, not that that matters to the search engine, AFAIK. DCDuring TALK 22:42, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

From the previous discussion:
    • 2010, A. Sole, The Dot Comparable, page 74:
      'Oh tomato, tomato. Now come on Luke,' said Bob as he began to run away, 'I think customs is this way.'
Another variation from the previous discussion:
  1. 2012, MJR, I Am Dianna, page 150:
    • “At least allow me the pleasure of torturing—or is it seducing— him?” She put her finger to her cheek as if pondering. “Oh well, you say potato—I say potato, tomato—tomato. Who's to say they aren't the same thing?”
Cheers! bd2412 T 22:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Punctuation-only variants using the "tomato" spelling that are not entries lead to the failed-search page with [[tomato tomato]] and [[tomato, tomato]] at the top. [[tomayto tomahto only appears on the second page, #36 among the pages offered. For us to not have a "tomato" form of this would be completely unsatisfactory, even if tomato, tomato were not attestable. DCDuring TALK 23:33, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

  • Based on the search results, I would be satisfied with tomato tomato redirecting to the reasonably well attested tomato, tomato. bd2412 T 00:28, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    I agree. --WikiTiki89 00:41, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
    Done. Cheers! bd2412 T 02:56, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
    Unstriking to give people a bit more time to look for citations of the comma-less form. --WikiTiki89 03:47, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
    As you wish, but I spent quite a bit of time searching and turned up zero, so I hold out no hope for coming up with a CFI-worthy number. bd2412 T 03:58, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


RFV of the noun sense synonymous with blasphemy. I'm having trouble finding a single lemming at OneLook that lists a noun blaspheme or a non-scanno/typo usage of blaspheme as a noun at b.g.c. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

"Such blaspheme" finds a handful, but they all look like errors to me. Equinox 20:55, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
  • In Middle English blasfeme (blasphemy). See blaspheme in The Century Dictionary, The Century Co., New York, 1911 where it is a noun. DCDuring TALK 23:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
    • The Century Dictionary's noun (and adjective) entries list only Wyclif and Chaucer as authors, so maybe it should be moved to a Middle English section. If it can be found in Early Modern authors, then maybe it should be tagged "obsolete". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:28, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
      • The OED marks this sense as obsolete, with the latest cite from 1583 (Poems of T Watson). It looks more like Middle English to me. Dbfirs 08:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
        • If it's from 1583, that's well into Early Modern English.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
          • Yes, agreed. I wasn't convinced that Thomas Watson was using Chancery Standard because he also wrote in Latin and studied law, but he was educated at Oxford, so he would be using Early Modern. There's another cite from W. Bonde Pylgrimage of Perfection in 1526, so I think you are correct that the word survived into Early Modern English. We should mark it as obsolete. Dbfirs 09:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


"To give beer to (someone)" - added by WF the other day. Maybe, but not easily found on Google Books. Equinox 21:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

You can use any noun this way. --WikiTiki89 21:12, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Not (CFI-)attestably, which is the point at issue. Equinox 21:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm just pointing out that even if it is attestable there is an argument to be made for not including it. I might not bother with an RFD though. --WikiTiki89 21:23, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
Cited. — Ungoliant (falai) 00:25, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
Looks all right. Thanks! Equinox 02:33, 22 August 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(poetic) humility" for Sophrosyne. --kc_kennylau (talk) 02:09, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Note: Same editor has added similar "poetic" senses to some other Greek gods. Equinox 02:14, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
<sigh> Same editor using a large number of IPs has added vast mountains of crap to a large number of entries on mythology, magic, etc.- not to mention Japanese and Chinese entries in general. I'll see if I can go through their edits from today and get rid of at least some of the nonsense and trivial clutter. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:26, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't know about poetic, but there does appear to be a distinction between Sophrosyne the entity and sophrosyne the virtue (which, contra the sense at Sophrosyne, seems to have canonically been "temperance" or "restraint" (although I have also seen a cite contrasting sophrosyne against hubris, in the context of Nietzsche), and is correctly defined at small-s sophrosyne). I would suggest deleting this third sense of Sophrosyne and linking in small-s sophrosyne as a derived term. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 02:27, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Actually, the derivation is the other way around: the goddess is named after the virtue. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I've just blocked the same lunatic about 10 times in 5 minutes. I suppose there's nothing that can be done about this, by us or Wikimedia? Equinox 02:55, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
We can add a filter for the word "asteroid"... It's the only thing I can think of that might do anything. --WikiTiki89 14:19, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

once in a blue moonEdit

Rfv-sense "(archaic) Never." --WikiTiki89 04:19, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

It's been there from the original entry in 2005, but I can find no usages with this sense, nor can the OED, though their earliest cite is only from 1833. Presumably "archaic" must be older than this? Dbfirs 19:12, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


Without regard to the format, does this prefix even exist? --kc_kennylau (talk) 18:11, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

Apparently an Internet invention by one "André Joyce": the most useful page I could find was this one [49] which identifies it as one of many "bogus" made-up prefixes. We could speedily delete it. Equinox 19:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 05:45, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Pinging original author User:Type56op9. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 05:47, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Pinging original author User:Type56op9. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to "be bold" and speedy this one. Lazy Wonderfool not checking for scannos, for sure. Equinox 19:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 05:51, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Cannot find examples in, pinging original author User:Type56op9. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:04, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Can find pitter-patter but not pitterpatter, pinging original author User:Type56op9. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Cited but it was tough. Glossed as rare. Equinox 19:28, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:29, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Can find plum cake but not plumcake, pinging original author User:Type56op9. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Cited. Equinox 16:14, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:32, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Can find throne room and throne-room but not throneroom, pinging original author User:Type56op9. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:35, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
Cited. Equinox 16:17, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

rubber bandEdit

Rfv-sense: should be hyphenated if used as a verb. --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:39, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 06:40, 23 August 2014 (UTC)


@Type56op9: Why would the initial "b" be ever omitted? --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:59, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

A typo? I believe it's an old form of ranch; see Google Books. Equinox 16:18, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes I'm sure it's a typo. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
Totally a typo. Sorry guys. BTW, so you know, I won't be citing the entries above. --Type56op9 (talk) 23:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Okay, it's not cited, but I'm striking this because the original reason for RFV is gone, and you can easily find "ranche" as old form of "ranch" in Google Books. Equinox 01:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


rfv --kc_kennylau (talk) 10:20, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

I wonder if it could be attested to mean one who necks a drink. I doubt it, I'm just musing. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:05, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Sophrosyne (Goddess)Edit

Rfv of the sense.

The existence of the goddess has been called into question by Barklestork (talkcontribs). The sense was based on the Wikipedia article, which got its information about the goddess from, which interpreted passages speaking of personified virtues as referring to actual goddesses. Since this is an English entry, the issue of whether a Greek goddess exists is secondary to whether there's any evidence meeting the requirements of WT:CFI that English speakers have used the word with this meaning. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:01, 24 August 2014 (UTC)


Could someone add an example for the purported synonymy between "to email" and "to mail" in this line: "mail (transitive): To send by electronic mail" in the mail entry. I have never heard "to mail" used to mean "to send an email". Thank you. 2604:2000:DFC0:100:DC6B:AC1F:3C8A:C3CE 17:43, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Equinox 17:57, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
"I need to mail my tutor"? Who says that? Not in my corner of the world. 18:31, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
The world has other corners than yours, believe it or not. Equinox 22:01, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Believe it or not, your quote sounds like you have to stuff your tutor into a box and ship him (to whom?) through you local post office. In what part of the Anglosphere have you ever heard that? 17:50, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
  • The "mail my tutor" usage sounds strange to me too, so I've added an {{rfv-sense}} tag to the entry. The sense has two quotations already, so only one more will be needed to verify it. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 18:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Cited: somebody who saw a (supposed) virus "open my e-mail package and start to mail my friends". Perhaps it needs a UK gloss? Equinox 05:40, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I've heard it in America too. --WikiTiki89 13:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC)


Another dumb invented philia/phobia. Cannot find one usage, only a few mentions. Equinox 22:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

It amazes me how long this has been around. --WikiTiki89 23:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Can we keep this until 31/10/2014? Then it will have lasted 10 years. Also why does lavacult- refer to bathing suit? Renard Migrant (talk) 17:06, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Presumably whoever invented this term was thinking of Latin lavō (bathe) and cultus (clothing, attire), but this isn't the way Latin compounds are formed, and lavō means 'bathe' in the sense of 'wash' not in the sense 'swim for recreation', and cultus means 'fancy dress'. If I were going to invent a Latin word for 'bathing suit' it would be vestitus natationis, and if I were going to invent a philia for arousal by bathing suits I would use a pseudo-Greek word, not a pseudo-Latin word. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


One of those dictionary-only words, I suspect. I found one very dubious running-text citation in a book attempting to use as many unusual words as possible, but otherwise I can't see any evidence. Ƿidsiþ 08:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


Ungoliant (falai) 17:32, 26 August 2014 (UTC)


The science or study of hair. Ƿidsiþ 06:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I've found five citations, two as a compound, two hyphenated, and one spaced as "hair lore". Four relate to the sociology of hair, the other (I think) to the science and craft of dealing with hair. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 07:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I speedied it before I noticed the rfv, but restored it. This IP is trying to come up with etymologically English substitutes for -ology terms using lore, apparently with this 1910 article as a source. Although there's usage for some of these, they have different meanings. For instance, hairlore is folklore about hair, not the scientific study of it. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:27, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes…annoying. Well, this one passes, I merged the senses and marked it as rare…but striking. Ƿidsiþ 08:59, 27 August 2014 (UTC)


(German.) Does not seem to have been used anywhere except a few websites. - -sche (discuss) 03:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


As above. I checked Google Books for "planeswalker" + "le", "la", "un", "une" and found nothing. - -sche (discuss) 03:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


As above. I checked Google Books for "planeswalker" + various common Italian words and found nothing. - -sche (discuss) 03:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


As above. - -sche (discuss) 03:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The only durably archived use I found italicises the term. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


As above. - -sche (discuss) 03:03, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The only durably archived instance I could find was an italicised mention. — Ungoliant (falai) 03:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Sources: I don't know if there are any other uses of "planeswalker" outside the MTG card game. So I'd say this is a specific game term. Since you have found nothing about it in other languages, I'd say the term is used exclusively in the MTG card game in those languages.

Here are the sources of the official rulebooks. Just type "planeswalker" in the search box and you always find it no matter what language you're dealing with.

Update: English:
—This unsigned comment was added by Fumiko Take (talkcontribs) at 30 August 2014. (diff)
I think this term fails WT:FICTION. It's like the Pokémon stuff all over again. Equinox 05:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
The English word has not been officially RFVed. I've added one non-MTG cite to the page; it's possible another could be found if someone wants to RFV it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:45, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I added RFV to English as well. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:41, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


I request attesting quotations for English as well. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:41, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

I added 7 uses that, to the best of my knowledge, are not connected to the Magic: The Gathering universe at Citations:planeswalker (includes spelling variations). — Ungoliant (falai) 17:51, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


Seems reasonable - but, just to be sure that it is not a protologism. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: traffic cone. Could be vandalism. --Type56op9 (talk) 22:22, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Possibly an error, but not conscious vandalism. Added by User:Ciciban who has done some 100 serious-looking entries, mostly in German articles or en-de translations. The sense looks unlikely, though. I found no hints to that direction in Google or Wikipedia. Perhaps local slang somewhere? --Hekaheka (talk) 04:43, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
de:User:Nobelium also says that toddler is another word for traffic cone, having added that meaning to the German wiktionary in September 2012. It also was added to French wiktionary in 2011. It seems like a joke (imagine "Oh, there were about fifty toddlers standing in the middle of the highway today. I ran over a few on my way here and got out to see if my car was damaged and that's why I'm late for work!") but at least three people have said it, unless the others were just copying the first unaware that it was an error. The French wiki has added (Construction) as if to imply it's a slang term. Soap (talk) 23:12, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
I'd think we need something stronger than a mention in German and French wiktionary. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:28, 9 September 2014 (UTC)


Spanish, apparently means pew-warmer. It was used as the title of an American movie called "The Benchwarmers", but I can't see any decent evidence of use outside. --Type56op9 (talk) 19:11, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

It's suspicious that this doesn't even appear on the wiki of the language that it's apparently taken from. I'm not sure why "pew" would be used instead of "bench", and I would say that that much at least is an error. calentar seems to mean "to warm", not calientar, but I could see the use of both. Soap (talk) 23:21, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Cited with the sense bench-warmer. The reason for the i is that calentar is irregular—its stem changes so that the third person singular present is calienta rather than calenta. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 00:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


Rfv-sense #2: "Medical resident working as an intern". Other dictionaries do not seem to recognize this sense. On the contrary, gives the following as 2nd definition: "person who teaches or conducts sessions at a clinic". Most others define "clinician" as a health professional who treats patients rather than practices research. --Hekaheka (talk) 04:11, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Klebsiella pneumoniae carbapenemaseEdit

  • Rfv-sense: (pathology) a superbug strain of Klebsiella pneumoniae bacteria that produces carbapenemase
  • Rfv-sense: (biochemistry) a carbapenemase enzyme produced by Klebsiella pneumoniae bacteria

The term exists; the question is which of the two senses is attested per WT:ATTEST. I propose you place the attesting quotations at Citations:Klebsiella pneumoniae carbapenemase, since if the 1st sense is not attested, the 2nd can be later deleted as sum of parts via RFD. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:28, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

It seems that the biochemistry sense is used in w:Carbapenemase. It seems to include at least four types, which types may be subject to further division. IOW, the term reflects our current state of knowledge, but may not refer to a specific chemical whose composition and structure is well-established. As such I don't know in what sense it will really seem to be a term as more is understood. Perhaps users view it as SoP now. DCDuring TALK 13:00, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
From reading abstracts it appears that there is a gene which spreads among bacteria that enables them to create the K. pneumoniae carbapenase, so the notion that there is a strain the identity of which is stable enough to warrant treatment as a taxon seems unlikely. For example, {{w:NCBI}} does not have a taxon called Klebsiella pneumoniae carbapenemase.
I feel that this is beyond my access to the scientific literature and probably my paygrade. If we do not have and cannot recruit a contributor with better access and knowledge, I would rather we deleted the pathology sense. The biochem sense would provide an interested user with a term to be used in further research. The pathology sense looks like it leads up a blind alley. DCDuring TALK 13:24, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
OTOH, this may be an important gateway to the phenomenon or rapidly spreading drug-resistance among pathogens that we would be remiss to neglect. DCDuring TALK 13:26, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
That's all very nice (or not, depending on one's taste), but I really request attesting quotations; these absent, I request that this be ultimately deleted. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:48, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I know you are only interested in formal procedure, so I apologize for boring you. I don't know how to cite this properly in this case. I'd appreciate someone else trying or offering constructive advice or support. DCDuring TALK 17:10, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
RFV is not "formal procedure" in any pejorative sense; it is a process used to discover whether, as far as we know, a term or sense is attested. The material requested via RFV are usually attesting quotations, or at least links to them. You know that by now, having spent multiple years around here, so I not sure what to make of your above responses. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:37, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but not listed by 123snake45 (talkcontribs), with the comment:"There is no that word at Turkish. It has been prefabricated! It isn't Turkish." A couple of cites have just been added to the citations page for the entry, so it looks like a good time to assess those cites and see if there are any others.

The definition in the entry is "beach".

This fits the profile of the type of terms that our anonymous Turkish protologism purveyor targets: the word for beach one finds in dictionaries is plaj, which is an obvious borrowing of French plage- they specialize in trying to substitute terms manufactured from items in various Turkic languages for common Turkish words whose etymology isn't Turkish enough for their taste. The dictionary app on my computer has a verb çimmek (to bathe (in a creek, stream, etc.)), which could be the source for this, along with -er and -lik. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:39, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

There are at least two citations from Google Books, so stop saying gibberish words and shut up. —This unsigned comment was added at 2001:a98:c060:80:7948:8701:2669:dbc5.
Your theory is wrong. There is already another word 'kumsal' for a beach as a Turkish origin word. -- 06:24, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
In what way does that invalid his (Chuck Entz's) theory? Renard Migrant (talk) 13:32, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
I was aware of that, though it literally means sandy. As for the previous comment: the issue isn't whether it's gibberish, but whether it's really Turkish. If someone were to try to translate beach into Turkish as çimerlik, there's a real possibility that they would either, at best, come across as not knowing Turkish very well, or, at worst, simply not be understood. A language consists of what people actually speak or have spoken in the past, not what someone thinks might be a good idea. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:04, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Kumlu literally means sandy. The definition of kumsal is 2. Denize, göle vb. yerlere girilebilen genellikle kumluk alan, deniz hamamı, kumbaşı, plaj according to the TDK's (Turkish Language Association's) Up-to-date Turkish Dictionary. -- 10:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
Just my two cents. If a word, used in the given language, is attested, for CFI purposes, it's possible to include a word, which is quite rare and native speakers are not very familiar with it. It can be qualified as rare. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:44, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
You can look at

plaj, kumsal, kıyı, sahil words are exist but there is no çimerlik. Because çimerlik is Azeri word. So originally is Azeri. Lie of "çimerlik=Turkish" is same personal who prefabricate words of "sınalgı, birdem, özçekmiş, haydavcı, yöndemci, köpyak, düşerge, eğleç, türküm, karabat, yağday, emes, öndürücü, haydamak, birak, dikuçar, beket..." e.t.c --123snake45 (talk) 22:53, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The rules we use are WT:CFI. RFV basically requires someone to cite a word for it not to be deleted. If someone is not offering cites, then there's basically no point in arguing against a word. If there is someone providing cites, then it's irrelevant what any other site says; the question becomes, among other things, if the cite is from an appropriate source and if the word is really used in the text. Words that are actually used will be kept, even if strongly disapproved of by whatever authorities there may be, though a note to that effect is appropriate.--Prosfilaes (talk) 09:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
123snake45 is behaving like this because he fabricated many words and those words were not accepted. After this he tries to delete other words that he sees on the forums which people discuss with him because of his absurd words. If you think that pan-Turkists or language purists use this kind of words it is irrevelant with if the citations are valid or not. A word can be used by the nationalists or the communists etc. A dictionary represents a word if that word really exists. I have just added the translations of the citations from Google Books so decide yourselves if they are valid or not. -- 09:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)


Stupid or foolish person. Plausible, but I searched for "you bollard!" etc. and found virtually nothing. Equinox 03:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


Old English ? Leasnam (talk) 18:49, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

The same contributor (Top Cat 14) also created leag, which is equally dubious (the g appears in inflected forms of leah, not the lemma).There's no evidence they knew any Old English at all. The y would have to have the same sound as modern y in order to be a variant of Old English g, but I have my doubts that y was used as a consonant/semivowel at all in Old English, and as a vowel it was only the umlated u, as far as I know.
Searching Google Books with Þe and ðe used to narrow it down to Old English texts just turns up scannos and the Middle English counterpart of lye, law and lay- not conclusive but strongly suggestive that this is wrong. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:22, 1 September 2014 (UTC)


RFV of all the "political entities" senses (except "the Crimean Khanate"). All of the citations of I can find that use "Crimea" as the name of a state rather than a region are referring to the Khanate — which, notably, did not always control the entire Crimean peninsula, and did control relatively large areas of territory on the mainland, for which reason I am convinced it merits its own sense-line. Searches I used: google books:"war with Crimea", "peace with Crimea", "embassy from Crimea", "embassy to Crimea", "ambassador from Crimea", "ambassador to Crimea", and all of those with the definite article added. The results of searches like "forces from (the) Crimea", "government of (the) Crimea" seem to me to be using (or indistinguishable from) the geographic sense.
It may be relevant to compare this entry to "Georgia", where only the really distinct senses "a country in the Caucasus" and "a state in America" are distinguished; the American entity was a colony (not a state) in some eras, but that is unmentioned.
Note that a few of the political senses were originally added by me in an attempt to address a POV dispute over whether the peninsula was part of Russia or Ukraine; the subsequent expansion of the list made it clear how untenable an approach it was. - -sche (discuss) 20:08, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


The "Zaydi Shi'a Muslim" sense. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 23:48, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Cited. — Ungoliant (falai) 02:40, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Looks good. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 18:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


Is mel really English? —Stephen (Talk) 20:36, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I suspect not. It occurs in some fixed Latin phrases (mel boraeis, mel rosae, mel roset, mel rosat...) and derivatives (melrose, oxymel, hydromel, oenomel...), but AFAIK not alone. Equinox 02:01, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
Maybe in ingredients lists where they have "aqua" for water. I dont know if that's meant to make it easier for non-English speakers to understand or if it's some legal thing that it's not healthy enough if it doesn't give the chemical formula of water. Soap (talk) 22:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


...and zio. I found no hits for the previous usex, "Zio-centric". The only hit I could find was of "Zio-Nazi", which I changed the usex to. I have found a few hits for "Zionocentric" and "Ziono-centric", and one hit for "Ziono-socialites". - -sche (discuss) 06:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

It's no coincidence that the only example is attached to a word that starts with an "N". That's obviously a blend of Zion and Nazi, which was misanalysed as Zio- plus Nazi. Yet another case of trying too hard to extract every conceivable vaguely-plausible term out of minimal data. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:15, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
PaM's edit history shows a mania for adding Jewish/Islamic terms that are very barely, or not at all, attestable. I have speedily deleted the stand-alone Zio since it's patently ridiculous ("more Zio, most Zio"?). However, I can see "Zio-centric" in two (!) Google Books search results. Equinox 07:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I commented before with regard to Erik (the Srebrenica-obsessed editor) that I feel editors should be judged on local behavior, and not e.g. blocked on one project just because they misbehaved on other projects. But if users engage in poor editing locally, it can be instructive to note that they've engaged in and been disciplined for poor editing elsewhere. On Wikipedia, PAM's caricaturally liberal POV-pushing has been brought up on w:WP:ANI repeatedly (1, 2; see also the many threads about edit warring, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5), and the user is currently blocked for using sockpuppets to avoid a topic ban on editing religious topics, which was imposed because of that POV-pushing. What is the cost vs benefit of PAM's edits here? They have to be checked for attestation (many aren't attested), placement (PAM often makes lowercase/unhyphenated forms the main entries when the uppercase/hyphenated forms are apparently more common or more standard), formatting, POV...(Should I move this to the BP?) - -sche (discuss) 21:42, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I don’t think PaM’s contributions here are so bad that we need to block him, but it’s reaching a point where we should require him to add three citations (and links to the citations, since he doesn’t check for scannos) to every entry he creates. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)


No Google Books matches for "to bewield". I tried the -ing and -ed forms, but only found scannos for "be wielding", "be wielded". Equinox 08:40, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I found one on Books, plus 2 online which apparently show some use. It is labelled rare, and aptly was not easy finding. Thing is, its listed in several dictionaries, so its likeky to keep popping up here and there. I cant seem to locate the Morrison attest anywhere on Books, though its purported...Leasnam (talk) 17:34, 6 September 2014 (UTC)


Tagged but not listed. This is an example how 123snake45 says "This isn't Turkish! It is prefabricated!" without any prior research. If he looked up Turkish Language Association's Up-to-date Turkish Dictionary, he could probably see this word there. --2001:A98:C060:80:3C5D:D53C:F96D:7B9A 07:50, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I did look today and it isn't writing at mean "to drive". So it isn't "drive" it is "dehlemek". "Haydamak" comes from "hayda" and "hayda" is mean "haydi". So, it uses for get move the animal(s); a kind of hurry up. --123snake45 (talk) 08:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
You said it was prefabricated. Anyway, there are citations, so i will not argue with you. --2001:A98:C060:80:3C5D:D53C:F96D:7B9A 08:35, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I said it was prefabricated for "drive".
You said it without any prior research. Because you only want to spread the words which you fabricated. If you don't know a word, you think that word was fabricated by another one and you can not stand this. --2001:A98:C060:80:3C5D:D53C:F96D:7B9A 09:22, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
You are still telling lie. Not me, you did entry your prefabricated words "birdem, sınalgı, haydavcı, öndürücü, köpyak, türküm, özçekmiş ..." e.t.c. --123snake45 (talk) 10:08, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
The words "sınalgı, haydavcı, türküm" etc. are not prefabricated words. They are loan words from other Turkic languages. You can not stand these words because this kind of words prevent you to spread your own fabricated words. Öndürücü is some people's surname in Turkey, and you may find all these words in other dictionaries. Anyway, there are citations from Google Books so stop saying irrelevant things here. --2001:A98:C060:80:3C5D:D53C:F96D:7B9A 11:24, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
We need another Turkish speaker to sort this out. Assuming the citations at Citations:haydamak are valid (as they appear to be) we need someone to tell us what they mean. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:39, 9 September 2014 (UTC)


Cantonese opera. — Ungoliant (falai) 09:52, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

From a Google search, it looks like it's a word that Hong Kong tourism board used for one event, but that never caught on anywhere else. Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
I was about to say it does get some web hits but nothing in Google Books. No Google Groups hits (the 15 hits are all for 'can't opera'). Renard Migrant (talk) 15:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

sic semper tyrannisEdit

I ask attesting quotations for Latin (not for the English entry) showing 1) the phrase was ever used in Latin at all, and 2) the phrase was used to mean "tyrannical leaders will inevitably be overthrown" or the like, thus having a meaning beyond the plain combination of the meaning of the separate components. Even quotations showing 1) but not 2) would be worthwhile; if no quotations in Latin text are found, the entire Latin section should be deleted. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:32, 10 September 2014 (UTC)



Cited, but I had to change the definition (lore isn't scientific study). Equinox 18:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)





Please note that horselore and lakelore appear to be cited already, whalelore has citations but they are mostly for whale lore. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)


Another one that seems to be already cited. Please untag if you're happy. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Chak HaryamEdit

Ungoliant (falai) 21:36, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

It looks like our POV-pushing Pakistani expat (the one who created entries and categories for all the divisions of Pakistan) is back under a different IP.


This was copied straight from the 1913 Webster's, which AFAICT was copied straight from the 1828 Webster's, which probably got it from this 1742 text, but I can't find any indication that there is any New World snake called the "bom", and, well, zoological knowledge has advanced a little bit in the past 272 years. So far, it looks like this word has only been mentioned and not used. If such a critter ever existed, it presumably has some modern name, but if we can't find out which one, we can't even label this an obsolete word for something else. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Webster's Second International c. 1935, shows it in a footnote, saying it is the same as aboma. DCDuring TALK 22:44, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I found bom and boma in this sense in some Portuguese dictionaries.
bom in The Century Dictionary, The Century Co., New York, 1911 also says it is the same as aboma.DCDuring TALK 23:01, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
"Zoological knowledge has advanced a little bit in the past 272 years." I loled. I am also enjoying the idea of any snake being named after the sound it makes, because then all snakes should be called sssss or hsssss or sssshh or Slytherin. What kind of stupid snake says "bom"? Beautiful ecologist Kirsty told me that she used to hiss at people who bothered her, although I imagined it being more of a catlike hiss. BTW, one thing that Webster 1913 brought to my attention is that there was some point, not too long ago, when everyone stopped saying "serpent" and started saying "snake". Anyway here is a promising search for anyone who is currently more sober and less distracted: [50] Love always Equinox 23:13, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Dubstep snake, I suppose. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
I looked through the first ten pages of that search, and all I found was hyphenation artifacts, scannos (mostly for born and boæ), and one mention. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 13:15, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
Could it be somehow a mistake for boa? Boa is the feminine form of the word bom in Portuguese, although the word "boa" for snake apparently goes back to Latin and ins unrelated. Soap (talk) 05:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
It is more likely that the English dictionary entries are intended to potentially help someone who might read a rendering of a word heard in Brazil that was or was derived from aboma: *bom, *boma, *bomma. I doubt that any of them are attestable in English. DCDuring TALK 11:02, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I found and added two book citations, but both are mentions. Inadequate! Equinox 15:57, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I agree that "This is called the bom, ..." (now in mainspace) is a mention, not a use. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:46, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


It was used by Adlai Stevenson, but other than that, this is just too rare to merit an entry. --Æ&Œ (talk) 15:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

I seriously doubt it's real Latin anyway; it's just a highly educated (and self-referentially ironic) joke in English. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:01, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
See w:Dog Latin Chuck Entz (talk) 18:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC)


All I can find are mentions with a different definition. — Ungoliant (falai) 17:57, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

culpable homicideEdit

RFV-sense of three senses. I believe that the only use of the term is with sense 1 ("homicide which is culpable but does not rise to the level of murder"). The "Scottish" and "South African" senses aren't even independent of each other, let alone sense 1. See also Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/January#Standards_of_Identity, which concluded that Wiktionary, being a dictionary of words and not a record of the laws of every jurisdiction at every point in history, should not have things like this and this. (The recent discussion of how we don't even have senses like "a British colony" for Georgia, even though Georgia was a British colony at one point, is semi-related.) - -sche (discuss) 22:25, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

This is already being discussed on the definition discussion page. Many countries have a legal definition for culpable homicide. I believe the generic definition: "Criminal negligence causing the unlawful death of a human being." And a sample of legal definitions is the best way to go. The term "murder" is a misnomer for culpable homicide, it may or may not include the word "murder" it depends on the country you are in; for example "murder" is considered culpable homicide in Canada. Better to use the generic idiom unlawful death. thanks WritersCramp (talk) 22:34, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
"A sample of legal definitions". Who chooses the sample? Renard Migrant (talk) 13:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
WritersCramp, of course. Apparently no one is allowed to make changes of any significance to any of WritersCramp's entries without prior permission. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


Looks like tosh to me. Needs to be properly formatted and severely cleaned up if OK. SemperBlotto (talk) 18:51, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

BGC has nothing, but Wikipedia has an article on Zecharia Sitchin, who believed the things this entry calls "anunnakianism", but there's no indication in the WP article that there was a religion or an ism founded on his beliefs. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:01, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

It is the beliefs of a newly formed Church movement that has as it's base science of the cosmos and empirical data concerning life on other planets and how we are affected by such.

Speedily deleted as obvious neologism. However, Anunnakian may be attestable in the works of Sitchin. Equinox 20:12, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


Parental Alienation Awareness Association. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)