Talk:θεός

Vocative SingularEdit

The source of the information regarding the vocative singular in Classical Greek would be my Greek TA from my elementary Attic course. It would be better, however, if someone could find an additional source. My apologies for not having one. Medellia 03:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Contradictory etimologyEdit

"Despite the superficial similarity, the word is not related to Latin deus" -- this is nonsense. Of course those words cognate, hence the phrase above "Cognate with Phyrigian δεως (deōs, “to the gods”)". It is clear that Greek and Latin words are not borrowed from each other language, but those are related from common Ingo-European roots. 95.25.73.244 11:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a source to back up this claim? The IE roots look fairly different to me (*deiw- for deus and *dʰ(e)h₁s- for θεός ‎(theós)). My sources claim them to be quite distinct. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:05, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
Maybe the common root is older than that and lost? That doesn't qualify as grounds to denounce the appearant relation, anyhow. I'll reword that sentence now --91.65.178.129
I would like to point out that one of the five Latin League nations was the Veneti, amber traders from the Baltic. Those veneti (I reference information from the Lithuanian History museum in Klaipeda here) Were in turn migrants from Greece, with greek dress, customs, and IndoEuropean language. Taat does not prove origin, but it provides a mechanism by which Theos and Deus may be related.2600:1003:B119:7649:5424:A94D:569E:4208 16:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)mjr
θεός came from PIE meaning maker. Deus came from PIE meaning sky, heaven, shine. Deus is cognate with Spanish día, but not with English day. θεός is cognate with English do. θεός and deus are false cognates, their PIE roots are not related to one another. —Stephen (Talk) 06:45, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

you're right, it's wrongEdit

The current citation on the current content of the page is ALSO garbage. It in no way supports the claims that the words are not related. Page 1 is "introduction to the comparatve method and the indo-european family" If anything, It actually supports the fact that these two words ARE INDEED related. But if we are desperate for a resource, the here is a quote from ... The Catholic Encyclopedia the first portion (not bold) is about the word "god"
"The root-meaning of the name (from Gothic root gheu; Sanskrit hub or emu, "to invoke or to sacrifice to") is either "the one invoked" or "the one sacrificed to." From different Indo-Germanic roots (div, "to shine" or "give light"; thes in thessasthai "to implore") come the Indo-Iranian deva, Sanskrit dyaus (gen. divas), Latin deus, Greek theos, Irish and Gaelic dia, all of which are generic names; also Greek Zeus (gen. Dios, Latin Jupiter (jovpater), Old Teutonic Tiu or Tiw (surviving in Tuesday), Latin Janus, Diana, and other proper names of pagan deities. The common name most widely used in Semitic occurs as 'el in Hebrew, 'ilu in Babylonian, 'ilah in Arabic, etc.; and though scholars are not agreed on the point, the root-meaning most probably is "the strong or mighty one.""

The main issue with sayin they aren't etymologically related is that the oldest surviving texts referencing the two usages play out like this... The Greek Bible wrote "theos" and then the Romans translated that EXACT word the "DEUS"... THAT is a relationship. Etymology goes both ways. It's not about which words are the precursors to later words, it's about the history of the usage of words & if one word gets directly transliterated to another in the same language family, THAT makes them cognate.

Okay, well, maybe not exactly... Let me give you an example. IN modern english we use the word "and" now, if by chance we as a society decided to stop using the word "and" and begin using the greek word "kai", then the etymology section for the word "and" would say something like "replaced by kai"... understood? Lostubes (talk) 11:46, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

You do know what "cognate" means, right? It means etymologically related, having a common origin (literally "born together" in Latin). Having similar or even identical meanings is no indication at all. see is not a cognate of voir, even though they have the same meaning. The English cognate to voir is in fact wit. —CodeCat 13:08, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
yes, exactly what I pointed out with the quote from the encyclica. from the two indogermanic roots,div & thes, an entire gamut of generic god names arises in the Mediterranean region... Lostubes (talk) 19:10, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

I guess it would be prudent to point out that thessasthai & theasthai are also related, the definition "to implore" is given, but other important translations cognate to the first given are "behold" & "theater" Hence the cintextual relationship between the two indo Germanic roots and subsequent evolution thereof. Any way yeah Lostubes (talk) 19:25, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

anyway here's another quoteEdit

From Definition of God's proper names by Herman Bavinck.

"Formerly the Greek word theos was held to be dreived from tithenai, theein, theasthai. At present some philologists connect it with Zeus, Dios, Jupiter, Deus, Diana, Juno, Dio, Dieu. So interpreted it would be identical with the Sanskrit "deva," the shining heaven, from "div," to shine. Others, however deny all etymological connection between the Greek theos and the Latin Deus and connect the former with the root thes in thessasthai to desire, to invoke."

the harmEdit

The reason this has been bugging me for years is this is contraverse information and some charlatans keep removing it.Lostubes (talk) 19:36, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

So, I'd point out again that the Catholic Encyclopedia does not constitute a reliable Proto-Indo-European source. The etymological practices of religious scholarship has always been mired in conflicts of interests, particularly a wish to syncretize disparate linguistic data to provide a unified and overly simplified explanation to demonstrate the presence of intelligent design. Furthermore, you still have not understood the main sticking point here: the meaning of there words are irrelevant; what is necessary is that they demonstrably come from the same PIE word, where demonstration requires adherence to a massive literature describing the sound changes between PIE and its descendant languages. PIE *dʰ- gives Greek θ and Latin f-. θεός does have several Latin cognates, specifically fēriae, fēstum, and fānum. Latin deus also has cognates of the underlying root (*dyew-) in Greek, namely Ζεύς ‎(Zeús). There is no number of quotes you can provide that will change the underlying sound laws that gave these two disparate words. —JohnC5 19:45, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
your kidding... right?

Charles George HerbermannEdit

(8 December 1840 – 24 August 1916) was born in Saerbeck near Münster, Westphalia, Prussia, the son of George Herbermann and Elizabeth Stipp.[1] He arrived in the United States in 1851, and seven years later graduated at College of St. Francis Xavier, New York City. He was appointed professor of Latin language and Literature (1869-1914) and librarian (1873-1914) at the College of the City of New York. For more than 50 years, he was immersed amidst various issues involved with Catholicism. He was president of the Catholic Club (1874–75) and of the United States Catholic Historical Society (1898-13). He became editor in chief of the Catholic Encyclopedia in 1905.[1] He translated Torfason's History of Vinland and wrote Business Life in Ancient Rome (1880).

I don't believe you realize that this debate is hundreds of years old.

Anyway I'm done here, enjoy your malignant encyclopedia website.Lostubes (talk) 20:02, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Modern citations from respected Proto-Indo-Europeanists. Just because a debate has been around for a long time does not mean the older sources have any relevance. The majority of the history of medical literature is completely irrelevant because the theories on which it was based (humors, homunculi, etc.) were completely wrong. So too are the writings of older philologists often wrong and irrelevant to modern linguistics. Also, we are a malignant dictionary, not a malignant encyclopedia. —JohnC5 20:13, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

Established etymologyEdit

Chantraine, in his entry on 'θεός', states bluntly: 'Etymologie: Inconnue.' He then presents a few candidates, including the one given here as being established, concluding: 'finalement l'ensemble reste incertain'.

Likewise in Frisk: 'Nicht sicher erklärt.', and the same objection to linking it with *dʰ(e)h₁s: 'ē : ĕ bleibt noch zu erklären'.

Does anyone have sources stating that *dʰ(e)h₁s is now the established etymon?

Beekes says that that etymology "seems to be generally accepted". --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:35, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

deus dei di & uncertaintyEdit

The etymology section had previously stated that deus is not related to theos. I found this annoying as the vulgate used the deus dei di, etc. to translate the greek forms theos theon etc. So, in truth they are obviously comparable in the least.

The similarities aren't just superficial... they actually share meaning. In case you didn't notice that part...

Furthermore, the origins of the theos are UNKNOWN according to Strong. There is no evidence supporting the claim that these two words are in and of themselves entirely isolated from one another, in fact the evidence seems to trend in the other direction.

one word gets used in place of a previous word and the previous word is of unknown origin... these two words are inherently related in the context that the newer (latin deus) is the closest form of the word with any clear origin that we have...

that's not to say that it's correct to assume that they are the same word... but saying they aren't comparable... you might as well say that theos actually doesn't mean anything at all.

They cannot be related as Greek th- corresponds to Latin f-, while Greek d- corresponds to Latin d-. The discrepancy in the initial consonant makes common origin impossible. —CodeCat 00:41, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) First of all, this is in the etymology section, so the only relationship that counts is in the derivation of the words. Of course θεός and deus have the same meaning, but that's irrelevant to the etymology. You mention Strong (I'm assuming you're referring to w:Strong's Concordance): it was compiled over a century ago by a theologian with no training in Indo-European historical linguistics. The evidence for the origin of both terms is pretty solid if you know about reconstruction of Indo-European roots, and it's not hard at all to tell that they come from completely different origins within Proto-Indo-European, and have just converged to have the same meaning. It's rare, but it happens. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:54, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
Return to "θεός" page.