Talk:Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh

Origin

When was this term coined, and by whom? 71.66.97.228 03:26, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

That’s just what people call it on the reservation. No one knows who said it first or when it was said. —Stephen ^(Talk) 03:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

So, if most new terms to describe foreign things are developed by the general populace and not the language experts, it shows great cleverness that dates back to translations like "monkeys, their food," "his clothing drags on the ground," "iron-hat country," etc. What a great language. 71.66.97.228 03:49, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

They come out of the general populace, not language experts. —Stephen ^(Talk) 04:02, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

RFV discussion: May 2017–June 2018

The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
Do not re-add this information to the article without also submitting proof that it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion.

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Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh

First of all, this is all wrong. It should just be Sǫʼ Naalgeedí (I think, as adding gohwééh would just make it SOP). Second, this is not attested at all. No references on the Internet except for us, the Navajo Wikipedia, and sources linked to those two. I have a lot of respect for User:Stephen G. Brown, but this entry is all wrong. Very good translation ability, but this translation is not attested. I was skeptical about the word "Starbucks" even being transferable into a language like Navajo at all, and when I checked, I was like, knew it. PseudoSkull (talk) 03:42, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Come on man it's Navajo you're talking about here, of course there's going to be a dearth of online appearances. —suzukaze (t・c) 03:45, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

But then prove it. What source(s) do you have of anyone using "Sǫʼ Naalgeedí" in reference to "Starbucks" the coffee shop chain? I'm not sure exactly of the verification rules of Navajo specifically, but I think if we can't find one source of its usage in Navajo, the entry will be deleted. PseudoSkull (talk) 03:48, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull, Suzukaze-c, Stephen G. Brown: I just called Jordan at Starbucks corporate and she confirmed it is "Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh". She is emailing me now. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:16, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/koavf/34634744761/in/dateposted-public/ —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:21, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Lol. I don't think that'll cut it. Plus they probably just copied that from the Navajo Wikipedia article or from here, once again. We need book, scholar, Usenet, etc. sources that use this term to mean "Starbucks", and as far as I can see, those don't exist. PseudoSkull (talk) 04:29, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. All I can say is that's what they call themselves. She confirmed that they don't have any paperwork or literature using that phrase--just an internal database. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:37, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

(also, "this is all wrong" is quite a bold claim for someone so uncertain ["I think"] and who doesn't speak Navajo, no? —suzukaze (t・c) 04:55, 20 May 2017 (UTC))

Well, Wiktionary itself is intended to be a resource, so hypothetically, if Wiktionary has every word in X language, someone doesn't have to know X language in order to find out what word in X language means and how it's used via Wiktionary. According to the entry given, this is a compound of Sǫʼ Naalgeedí (an alleged name for Starbucks) + gohwééh (coffee). Therefore, it may be SOP. Anyway, that doesn't even have anything to do with this RFV. Since I have no sources of the usage of Sǫʼ Naalgeedí or Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh, then we will never know how it's used, because it's not used. Therefore, this RFV will be failed and the entry will be deleted, unless someone finds some spot that I seriously failed to see. PseudoSkull (talk) 05:02, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Navajo is an WT:LDL, so a single mention (not even a use) is sufficient, but "the community of editors for that language should maintain a list of materials deemed appropriate as the only sources for entries based on a single mention". Those sources are not required to be online. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 06:24, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

First, PseudoSkull, why do you think that Sǫʼ Naalgeedí is the correct term? And why do you think that Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh is wrong? Sǫʼ Naalgeedí is almost meaningless in Navajo. It means "the star that bucks" (which is meaningless, since there is no star that bucks). Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh is the correct term. It is the term that Navajos use. I don't want to repeat myself with a long explanation about how things are with written Navajo, but very little written Navajo can be found online, in spite of the fact that some 130,000 people speak it daily. It has to do with the fact that the U.S. Government tried for at least two centuries to stamp the Navajo culture and language out; and that, although the Navajo alphabet was designed some 75 years ago, no Navajo schools taught Navajo (including reading and writing), until about 2002. Today, only a small handful of Navajos have managed to teach themselves the Navajo alphabet (which is complicated and difficult to use), and even when these few write it, hardly any Navajo speakers can read it. Only since 2002 have a few Navajo schools begun to teach the language and how to read and write it. We started a facebook group to teach Navajo reading and writing, but almost all of the 17,000 participants are adults and it is difficult for them to learn an alphabet that is so different from English.

Even for the few who can write it, the diacritics and the glottal stop are a problem. The glottal stop is best written as we do here, with ʼ, but for those who don't have a Navajo keyboard (i.e., most people), it is easier to use '. If you search for "Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh", you are unlikely to find anything (because of the glottal stop). However, if you search for "Sǫ' Naalgeedí Gohwééh", you will find this video about Sǫʼ Naalgeedí Gohwééh. The other Navajo diacritics can be written in various ways, too. Áéíóń ąęįǫ can be written as we do here, or they can write aeion aeio and add combining accents ́ ̨ ̀ to them (there are also other choices). So even when a text exists, it is often misspelled, and even if spelled correctly, the Unicode glyphs chosen are unpredictable.

This is precisely why I add virtually no new Navajo entries anymore (or entries in Lakota or other Native American languages). Most editors here do not comprehend how the situation with Native American languages is so different from that of most other languages in the world, which results in uninformed editors deleting perfectly good entries. Rather than waste my time entering Native American terms that someone is likely to delete eventually, I don't add words in these languages anymore. —Stephen ^(Talk) 09:06, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

As regards SOP, Navajo is a transparent language. Virtually every polysyllabic Navajo word is SOP to a native Navajo speaker. That's why Navajos do not need a Navajo dictionary for Navajo words. Every Navajo word is understandable to every Navajo speaker, including every word that nobody has used yet (Navajo is polysynthetic, so the lexicon is virtually infinite). They don't know how to spell the words, or how to access the diacritics and special letters needed to write them, but they know the meaning of every spoken word and phrase. The language is completely transparent. The words are not transparent or SOP for foreigners like us, but they are for the native speakers. So if you don't want to include any Navajo words that every Navajo already understands perfectly, then you need to delete every Navajo entry except for the monosyllabic words such as tó and the roots and stems such as -GEED. No one who is not a native speaker of Navajo will ever be able to use such a monosyllabic Navajo dictionary to read or write so much as a single polysyllabic word in Navajo, but if you don't accept anything in Navajo that is SOP, that's what you're left with. —Stephen ^(Talk) 10:05, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

A solution could be to create requirements even weaker than LDL, and invent an appropriate badge of shame for that degree of verification. For LDL, the badge of shame is {{LDL}} template, used e.g. in xéireagrafaíocht. The question is, what would the requirements be? Entry confirmed to be accurate by an experienced and trustworthy editor? Or at least one item of evidence supplied, without necessarily being durably archived? (The video linked above would fit the bill.) --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:07, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I told you, if you don't like them, delete them. Use whatever requirements you wish and delete everything that does not fit. It makes no difference to me. —Stephen ^(Talk) 10:15, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Looks like you are objecting to this being driven by CFI's WT:ATTEST? It's not about what I like or dislike; I have never nominated a Navajo entry for RFV, but someone will, as you see, and then what? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:29, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

That's what I've said on numerous occasions ... eventually someone will delete many, most, or all of the entries. That's why I don't add Navajo entries anymore. I'm tired of repeating this. As far as I'm concerned, whenever anyone thinks a Navajo entry is not worth keeping, or does not meet their interpretation of CFI, they should just speedy-delete them. Note also, a significant proportion of durably archived Navajo words (as most editors would judge them to be) are incorrect and misspelled and should not have entries. A great deal of experience with Navajo is required to make correct entries, and simply being found durably archived is not proof of correctness. There is only one other editor (User:Julien Daux) at the moment who is capable of recognizing correct spellings, and other editors should not be adding Navajo entries. —Stephen ^(Talk) 12:00, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Here's http://www.unco.edu/library/pdf/Navajo_English_Dictionary.pdf, published in 1958. Consistent with WT:CFI#Number of citations, this can be used to source Navajo words even via mentions as long as the Navajo editing community accepts the dictionary for mentions. Therefore, a complete removal of Navajo from the English Wiktionary via current CFI is unlikely. If you have specific CFI modification proposals, they can be discussed in Beer parlour and a vote can be created. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:09, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I know that dictionary. It is useful to a native speaker, but it contains misspellings and typos. Besides the misspellings, most of the words are not lemmas. That dictionary cannot be used except by editors who are experienced with the language. —Stephen ^(Talk) 12:25, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

None of which changes the fact that a complete removal of Navajo via current CFI is unlikely, and that policy change proposals can be discussed and enacted. Furthermore, if that dictionary contains flaws, futher similar works can be used for double checking, including perhaps A Navajo/English Bilingual Dictionary by Alyse Neundorf, 1983, found at google books:"navajo dictionary". Perhaps published grammars can be used for double checking as well. It seems to follow that the current CFI's approach to Navajo is not entirely hopeless. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:36, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

@Stephen G. Brown: Have those misspellings been propagated in the literature? If so, these alternative spellings/misspellings could merit inclusion too, wouldn't you say? Even if just as misspellings. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:47, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

No, not propagated. The Navajos do not use dictionaries, since Navajo is a completely transparent language. Every fluent speaker knows the meaning of every Navajo word, including words that have never before been spoken. The dictionaries are only for people who want to try to learn the language. If we tried to include misspellings, it would be a project of immense size, because most Navajos invent all their spellings on the fly, and the spelling of every person is different from that of every other person. The Republicans who hold sway over the Navajo lands have never allowed their schools to teach them how to read and write their language, so their individual "misspellings" number in the billions at the very least. —Stephen ^(Talk) 17:59, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Alyse's dictionary, like all other Navajo dictionaries, contains misspellings and typos. Even the greatest and most important dictionaries, those of Young & Morgan, contain misspellings, typos, and other mistakes. All of those dictionaries were written before the age of computers. When they were written, there were no spellcheckers, no computerized sorting, no true Navajo fonts, and no one who knew how to typeset, knew Navajo, and knew the Navajo alphabet all at once. The written language was too complex for the state-of-the-art typesetting technology of the time, and errors were unavoidable. CFI may not be hopeless, but no one who has not studied the language in depth should attempt to enter Navajo words based on what they find in existing dictionaries and books. Well, I see that this discussion is going around in circles. I have explained to the best of my ability. I have nothing more to add. —Stephen ^(Talk) 13:53, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

"Virtually every polysyllabic Navajo word is SOP to a native Navajo speaker" — maybe transparent, but our convention seems to be that WT:SOP only applies to compounds and phrases. All derivatives or inflected forms are fair game, as long as they're marked as such. (Also, being familiar with a few heavily derivational languages including my native one, I suspect that you probably underestimate the amount of non-productive derivation that exists in Navajo.) --Tropylium (talk) 16:33, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

@ User:Stephen G. Brown, I am extremely sorry for the lack of Navajo attestation out there, regardless of the amount of spoken language. To me, this is incredibly sad, and I wish that the Navajo language could have been better documented. Perhaps I am just entirely too bureaucratic. However, I have another suggestion. Perhaps we could use literal videos of people speaking Navajo to attest the words? Screenshots as Koavf has presented? According to you, this term is correct, but if CFI could be modified it can be kept. You seem very knowledgable in the language, as I've said above, so I'd say you can be trusted with creating Navajo entries, but unfortunately, Wiktionary has to have some sort of verification in order to provide an entry. I would support any efforts to modify CFI to let Navajo terms be attested easier in Wiktionary. PseudoSkull (talk) 16:18, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

I'm afraid you won't get much cooperation from most Native Americans. The Navajos were almost exterminated, with both Americans and Mexican raiding their towns to use them as target practice and to steal a few survivors to sell as slaves. At the low point, they were reduced to only 2000 mating pairs, which caused a genetic bottleneck in their population. They have recovered to about 300,000 people, but the genetic bottleneck means that all surviving Navajos carry genes for several genetic disorders, including Athabaskan severe combined immunodeficiency, Navajo neuropathy, Navajo poikiloderma, and Athabaskan brainstem dysgenesis. Republican predators push them out of their homes to steal their land for mineral rights, and mine uranium in their midst, leaving the uranium dust to float in the wind and on the rivers, causing a lot of rare cancers among them (Navajos were previously almost cancer-free). Since the days of "Indian-Killer" Andrew Jackson, the Navajo children have been forcibly removed from their homes at the age of 6 or 7 and taken far away to Government boarding schools. These boarding schools held the children prisoner throughout their school years, where they were punished for speaking Navajo and for following their native religion. They were forced to speak only English and to become Christians. For speaking a Navajo word, they were punished by slapping, kicks to the rear or the genitals, starvation, forced to stand naked in the freezing cold, sleep deprivation, water deprivation, forced to suck on bars of soap, beatings with cudgels or paddles. I know a woman who was kicked so hard in her genitals that she cannot bear children. Only in the past 15 years or so have the boarding schools begun to close, and there are even now 4,000 Navajo children still in distant boarding schools. The Republicans are very strong in the Navajo area, and the Republicans still want them gone. Since WW II, linguists have been fascinated with their language, and the linguists go among them and pick their brains and learn about their language. Then they take the information and write books and make money, but not a cent is paid to the Navajo (data mining). They will not be helping us.

Because of the situation with most Native American languages, and certainly Navajo, there is no way for a non-speaker of the language to look somewhere and verify any but a very few simple words. The biggest, most expensive Navajo dictionaries list only a smattering of common Navajo words. If you take a Navajo book and try to look up the words in every dictionary you can lay your hands on, you probably won't find more than about one word per sentence in all the dictionaries combined. There is nothing in Navajo similar to the Oxford English Dictionary, which attempts to list every English word. The Navajo language is horribly complex, and in most cases, inflected word forms often do not even look related to their lemmas, and most speakers of the language would be hard put to identify the lemma of a given word. That's why I have said repeatedly that, because of our requirements that editors who don't know the language must nevertheless be able to verify words, it means that we cannot host more than a few basic words on Wiktionary, and that most of the words that we already have should just be deleted. Native American languages are simply not compatible with en.wiktionary. —Stephen ^(Talk) 17:40, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

@koavf No, it didn't propagate to the literature because the literature is almost inexistant. When some literature exists, those misspellings and typos are real misspellings and typos, of that kind that comes once and never again, and takes various form within the same document. The only productive source of documents written in Navajo is (sadly) articles from the Church of Latter Days Saints, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons and other Christian stuffs of the sort. LDS write-ups are pretty much riddled in typos: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/here-to-serve-a-righteous-cause?lang=nav. The very well known nominalizing and unmistakably high-tone suffix -ígíí can appear as *-igii, bibee appears in the same document as *bibéé also, some nazalized vowels arbitrarily fail to denazalize before suffixes (*-ʼą́nii instead of -ʼáanii), some short closed syllables receive a random high tone when the Navajo tonotactics totally disallows it (*-nísh instead of -nish or -níísh), etc... They of course remain extremely valuable sources for the learner and the lexicographer, but as Stephen explained, they can't be used as is without prior in-depth knowledge of the language. —Julien D. (talk) 17:47, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

It looks like this probably exists, but RFV failed.__Gamren (talk) 11:43, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

Restore

Restore: Navajo is not a well-documented language; Stephen is clearly competent; the nomination was well-intentioned but clearly incompentent. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 19:21, 26 July 2018 (UTC)