Template talk:sa-sc

Sanskrit terms in other scripts

@Bhagadatta, Kutchkutch: What are your thoughts for having Sanskrit terms in other scripts than Devanagari? I think we should, like for Pali. I'm not that good with Wiktionary coding for modules and templates, so can you think about how to make {{sa-<pos>}} (as of now one will have to manually enter {{sa-sc|<script code>|<pos>=1}} for appropriate categorisation) automatically categorise the term by scripts? For example- CAT:Pali nouns in Bengali script. Thanks. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 07:29, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

In theory it's fine but it does seem a little odd because something like that has never been done here at wiktionary in the 12+ years of documenting Sanskrit. But really there are no grounds to oppose. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 10:51, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta, शब्दशोधक: It is odd that it hasn't been done yet. However, it is something that should be be done because not all Sanskrit is written in the Devanagari script. A technical issue with the current arrangement is that not all of the scripts at MOD:sa-convert are in this line at MOD:languages/data2:

scripts = {"Deva", "Bali", "as-Beng", "Beng", "Bhks", "Brah", "Gran", "Gujr", "Guru", "Java", "Khar", "Khmr", "Knda", "Lana", "Laoo", "Mlym", "Mymr", "Newa", "Orya", "Saur", "Shrd", "Sidd", "Sinh", "Taml", "Telu", "Thai", "Tibt", "Tirh"},

Interestingly, AryamanA and DerekWinters didn't add every possible script to this line when discussing Module talk:sa-convert. Thus, although the Zanabazar square script, for example, is supported by MOD:sa-convert, there may be issues with creating alternate script redirects for Sanskrit in the Zanabazar square script until it is added to that line at MOD:languages/data2. So, should we try adding alternate script redirects and see how it goes? Kutchkutch (talk) 12:00, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: We can do that but for many languages Kannada included they'll be soft L2 redirects because you'll also have that language's tatsama entry with the same exact spelling. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 01:28, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta: For the page ಧೈರ್ಯ as an example, are you referring to this?

==Kannada==

===Etymology===

From Sanskrit धैर्य (dhairya).

===Noun===

ಧೈರ್ಯ • (dhairya)

# courage

----

==Sanskrit==

===Noun===

# {{sa-sc|Knda|ಧೈರ್ಯ}}

If so, there's doesn't seem to be any reason not to start creating alternate script redirects with this format. Adapting CAT:Sanskrit modules for other scripts can be done over time with people who can code. Creating MOD:sa-Knda-translit doesn't seem too difficult. Kutchkutch (talk) 10:29, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Yes, that's what I was getting at. However, I must add that it should be checked beforehand if the term is attested in that script. For instance a word in the Bhagavad Gita will be likely documented in Kannada, Gujarati, Bengali scripts etc due to the book being rendered in that script but we need to be careful with the others. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 10:43, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta: Could you specify which of the supported scripts at MOD:sa-convert could have alternate script redirects at this time? These are the scripts that appear to have established traditions for writing Sanskrit:

Assamese

Balinese

Bengali

Bhaiksuki

Brahmi

Burmese

Gujarati

Grantha

Javanese

Kannada

Modi

Oriya

Prachalit

Saurashtra

Sharada

Siddham

Soyombo

Telugu

Tibetan

Tirhuta

Zanabazar Square Kutchkutch (talk) 11:37, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Kutchkutch: Why redirects? Can't we use this template? I see no point of keeping a Sanskrit terms in alternative script if there is no other entry at it. For example - we should only have a Sanskrit alt sc entry at Bengali पटोल#Alternative scripts and others where already tatsamas of different languages exist. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 11:45, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: Regarding redirects:

Isn't using this template = soft redirects? If the modules in CAT:Sanskrit modules are adapted for other scripts, the soft redirects could also have {{sa-alt}} and declension/inflection.

Regarding Sanskrit terms in alternative script if there is no other entry at it:

पटोल#Alternative scripts has 𑰢𑰘𑰺𑰩 as the Bhaiksuki script form of पटोल and 𑖢𑖘𑖺𑖩 as the Siddham script form of पटोल. If there are entries documenting Sanskrit in the Bhaiksuki and Siddham scripts, then Sanskrit would be only language on the page since they only appear to be used for Sanskrit. See:

Bhaiksuki:

http://std.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC2/WG2/docs/n4573.pdf

https://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n4573.pdf

Siddham:

https://www.unicode.org/wg2/docs/n4294.pdf

https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2012/12234r-n4294-siddham.pdf Kutchkutch (talk) 12:11, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Agreed, we can have Sanskrit alt sc entry even if any other language entry doesn't exist on it. What about Kharoshthi? 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 13:37, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: I didn't add Kharosthi to MOD:sa-convert because there isn't a clear one-to-one correspondence between Devanagari and Kharosthi, and I couldn't find explicit instructions on how such a mapping would work. This is also the case for the other unsupported scripts.

Kharosthi: There no differentiation between long and short vowels in Kharosthi. Both are marked using the same vowel markers. Kutchkutch (talk) 13:51, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Do we have Sanskrit text in Kharoshthi? All I can find is mention of Sanskritised texts. The latest Kharoshthi had long vowels, specifically for use with Sanskritic spellings. @Frigoris has been using material from Piya - perhaps he can advise. We've probably got enough material to get started, and there is usually a mechanism for failure to transliterate, namely returning nil rather than a string. Manual overrides should handle most gaps. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@RichardW57m, I think there are two possible issues with Kharosthi. First, technical support for Unicode Kharosthi remains poor in general. Most fonts don't work reliably. Second, attestation is poor for Sanskrit in Kharosthi compared with the other scripts (especially the modern scripts). --Frigoris (talk) 12:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: I guess the safest ones for now are Gujarati, Kannada and Brahmi because they're pretty straightforward. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 05:07, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta, शब्दशोधक: I created MOD:sa-Knda-translit and MOD:sa-Brah-translit and added them to MOD:translit-redirect. If there any factual (or coding) errors, please correct them. I wasn't able to get MOD:sa-Knda-translit/testcases to work. Kutchkutch (talk) 10:45, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Retrieving script name by text

@Bhagadatta, Kutchkutch: I tried really hard to find a way to do this, but couldn't. Please help a bit. What I want to do is that in {{sa-noun}} (or any other template for Sanskrit headword), I want it to catch the script and categorise as [[:CAT:Sanskrit <pos> in <script name> script]] automatically rather than us manually entering {{sa-sc|noun=1}}. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 14:02, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

@शब्दशोधक: I haven't found out how to do that as well. Try looking at MOD:scripts, MOD:scripts/templates, MOD:sa-headword, MOD:pi-headword, MOD:pi-headword. Kutchkutch (talk) 14:08, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: I've looked at them. But please, for now, stop using this template so much, or it will be troublesome to remove <pos>=1 from each of them. @Benwing2 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 14:11, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Eastern Nagari script

@SodhakSH Although Assamese and Bengali both use the Bengali–Assamese script and most of the characters are the same, Wiktionary has decided to have both CAT:Assamese script as-Beng and CAT:Bengali script Beng (see Category talk:Bengali script). Thus, Wiktionary treats CAT:Assamese script and CAT:Bengali script as distinct scripts (see MOD:scripts/data, WT:Scripts, WT:List of scripts). Since Sanskrit पटोल (paṭola) would be written as পটোল (paṭola) in both CAT:Assamese script and CAT:Bengali script, the Sanskrit entry for পটোল would have both:

# {{sa-sc|as-Beng|पटोल}}

# {{sa-sc|Beng|पटोल}}

However, CAT:Sanskrit nouns in Assamese script is not added automatically.

@Bhagadatta Although you said:

I guess the safest ones for now are Gujarati, Kannada and Brahmi because they're pretty straightforward.

The creation of CAT:Sanskrit nouns in Bengali script in CAT:Sanskrit terms by script means that Wiktionary has already begun documenting Sanskrit in the Eastern Nagari script, which is not as straightforward. See Module:sa-convert/documentation#Unresolved_Issues:

1. ব may represent ब or व
2. In certain words (needs more research), word final त् (t) in Sanskrit becomes ৎ (t) (Khanda Ta: Ta_(Indic)#Khanda_Ta)
3. Depending on location of य in a word, Eastern Nagari script may use either য or য় Kutchkutch (talk) 10:38, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Yeah, that is why I wasn't favouring Skt. entries in these scripts. @SodhakSH: please hold off creating any Bengali script entries for Sanskrit until someone knowledgeable about the script can take charge. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 13:22, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

@Bhagadatta: removed Sanskrit entry at পটোল. But please let the empty cat stay, it will be populated sooner or later. 🔥शब्दशोधक🔥 13:24, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Modi script

@Bhagadatta I created Module:sa-Modi-translit for Old Marathi etymologies, and for it to work I had to add Modi as a script for Sanskrit at Module:languages/data2. As a result, Modi now appears in Template:sa-alt. Perhaps creating alternative script redirects for Modi can wait until more issues at github.com/googlefonts/noto-fonts/labels/Script-Modi have been resolved.

@SodhakSH Modi is used for writing Sanskrit in the issue titled Modi with vedic accents results in tofus. Kutchkutch (talk) 12:11, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: Thanks a lot for the effort. Even though the Sanskrit entries in the Modi script are not possible for now, it works well in {{sa-alt}}. -- 𝓑𝓱𝓪𝓰𝓪𝓭𝓪𝓽𝓽𝓪^{(𝓽𝓪𝓵𝓴)} 13:07, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Southeast Asian scripts

@Shaantanu Try pinging User:Octahedron80 and User:RichardW57 first for MOD:sa-Khmr-translit. ဒေဝ (deva) is in Burmese script. Module:sa-convert also needs Khmer and Thai scripts.

Category:Sanskrit verbs in Khmer script, User:Benwing2/head-sa-noun Kutchkutch (talk) 12:43, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

I saw no ping. @SodhakSH, Kutchkutch, Octahedron80 Anyway, Sanskrit transliteration support is provided by Module:pi-translit for Khmer, Lanna, Burmese, Thai and Lao scripts. (Northern Thai etc. are probably going to need something more like Thai transcription for the Lanna script.) There may be bits missing for Lanna and Lao - show me the evidence of what the transliteration should be if you have problems. --RichardW57m (talk) 12:04, 24 June 2021 (UTC)