عُثمان

سُت بسم اللہ (اتے) جی آیاں نُوں

@عُثمان - Aslamualikum Usman! Really happy to meet another native Shahmukhi Punjabi native here! If you need any help here, please feel free to send me a message. Best of luck on creating a Shahmukhi UD corpus! (P.s I would avoid using Punjabi Wikipedia). نعم البدل (talk) 18:18, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

اسلام علیکم جی، میری مادری بولی نہیں اے، پر میری آل اولاد پنجابی بولدی اے۔ اوہ فیصل آباد، گوجرے، جڑنوالے لبے توں ہن۔

ہاں جی، پنجابی وِکی نہیں چنگی اے۔ عام پنجابی لکھت توں اوتھے وکھری شیلی اے۔ پہلے حوالے لئی میں ”پنجابی قواعد“ سرکاری ٹیکسٹ‌بُک ورتاں‌گا۔ عُثمان (talk) 18:56, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

@عُثمان: سہی چنگی گل اے۔ سرکاری ٹیکسٹ بکاں نوں پہلے ورت لو، تے فیر بھانویں دوجیان پنجابی کتاباں نوں ویکھ لیو۔ جتھے تک میں جاندا واں، بتھیریاں نیں آن لائین۔ انج ویسے، تہاڈے مادری بولی کہڑی اے؟ نعم البدل (talk) 20:21, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

عام اکھاݨاں یا محاوریاں لئی میں شعد سوشل میڈیا دی تھوڑھی جہی ورتوں کراںگا۔

میری پہلی بولی انگریزی اے۔ میرے ماتا پتا برطانوی پاکستانی ہن۔ اوہناں دی پہلی بولی پنجابی اے پر اوہ کدے پاکستان وچ نہیں رہے۔ عُثمان (talk) 21:55, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

ݨ and ن

@عُثمان - Hi, I just wanted to let you know that for Shahmukhi Punjabi lemmas, we tend not to use the ݨ character in the pagetitle, since Punjabi keyboards don't have this letter by default, nor is included in the standardised books, so it's kind of redundant for Punjabi speakers. Nevertheless, it's included in the header, and declensions etc, to signify the difference and it still comes up when you search it with the arnun letter! Hopefully in the future this letter can be used as intended :) Also I wanted to know your opinion on this please: Template talk:pa-decl-noun. نعم البدل (talk) 01:05, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

For what its worth, I have a modified Punjabi keyboard layout with arnun for Windows if you would like a copy. It is also included in some books, the dictionary Punjabi Classicy Lughat uses it in head words. I am indifferent to whether or not it is used in the page title overall though so long as both go to the same place. عُثمان (talk) 07:48, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

Hindko Dictionary

Hi brother.

Do you know whether any online Hindko dictionaries exist? نعم البدل (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@نعم البدل There is only one, the Hindko-Urdu dictionary app on Android maintained by Gandhara Hindko Board. It's just OK; it's of the Peshori variety which is the most influenced by Punjabi and Urdu. Most of what I have been using as sources for Hindko is descriptive grammar and phonology publications rather than dictionaries.

I am not able to obtain these at the moment, but if you are in Pakistan or know someone who is, ordering either of these print dictionaries would likely be fruitful.

• https://hindkobooks.com/home/303-nazeer-ul-lughaat.html
• https://hindkobooks.com/home/232-hindko-pashto-lughat.html

عُثمان (talk) 21:03, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! نعم البدل (talk) 21:52, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@عُثمان: – Sorry for pinging you again, but I realised you wrote 'Peshori'. In Punjabi, it's typically 'Pishauri' پشور, so is there a difference (in pronunciation) between Hindko 'Pishori' and Punjabi 'Pishauri'? On Wikipedia, the audio provided by a user, doesn't seem to match the IPA either? نعم البدل (talk) 05:33, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think there is a discernable difference between the two, it was just an ad hoc spelling (since it's not the same vowel as the 'i' at the end). The quality of this vowel can vary between speakers as far as I know, so /pɪ.ʃɔr/ should suffice for a phonemic transcription of either language. (I am less certain about how to transcribe a specific audio as I don't normally try this.)

The most notable difference in the vowels between Hindko and Punjabi is the tendency for the inherent schwa vowel to be replaced with /ʊ/ where it would be expected in the final syllable. So a word like گرم becomes گرُم /gə.rʊm/. There also is an even stronger preference against long vowel sequences than in Punjabi so while the Urdu adaptation of ‘house’ ہاؤس may be used in Punjabi the reflex in Hindko would still be to adapt it to ہَوس.

x عُثمان (talk) 06:09, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Noted! نعم البدل (talk) 08:20, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Etymology of Punjabi رام

Hi, could I ask if you have any evidence that this Hindu/Sikh term is borrowed from Urdu?--Saranamd (talk) 09:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)

Swahili

Do you by any chance have any insight on the etymology for Swahili bepari and possibly for patasi and upatu (see my inline comments in the etymology section for each of these). Thanks. tbm (talk) 02:10, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tbm Offhand, I think bepari is very likely from Hindustani bepār बेपार / بیپار "trade." Cognates to this word exist in Gujarati and Punjabi as vyapar or vapar but the change of v to b and simplification of the initial cluster is very distinctive of Hindi/Urdu. Not sure about the other two offhand, but I will look into them and let you know if I find anything --عُثمان (talk) 12:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

WOLD suggests for patasi: "patāsi, pʰāɖsī 'chisel' Hindi-Urdu". Note that both bepari and patasi have comments about the etymology. You need to click on edit to see it. tbm (talk) 12:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tbm Yes, noted. patasi is from Sindhi paṭasī پَٽاسِي with a similar meaning (this definition essentially just says a type of tool) https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/baloch_query.py?qs=%D9%BE%D9%8E%D9%BD%D8%A7%D8%B3%D9%90%D9%8A&searchhws=yes&matchtype=exact

Most of the Indic vocabulary in Swahili is specifically Sindhi as Lodhi notes in his work. the first word WOLD suggests I cannot find any evidence for existing, and Swahili would not devoice the ḍ in phadsī. عُثمان (talk) 12:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tbm And lastly, upatu from Sindhi paṭu پَٽُ https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/mewaram_query.py?qs=%D9%BE%D9%8E%D9%BD%D9%8F&searchhws=yes

See the beggar's bowl meaning in the second entry here. عُثمان (talk) 13:02, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@Tbm Also regarding your comments it is worth noting that the native tendencies of Hindi pronunciation are viewed negatively for mostly political reasons and this bias is prevalent on Wiktionary. Hindi speakers do not actually use vyapar like Wiktionary has an entry for, they always prefer to use b in this position. Since Sanskrit has v in the original word it is viewed as more prestigious to change the spelling. Urdu dictionaries will generally use pronunciation spellings for the same words. McGregor's Hindi dictionary does have bepar, but Urdu Lughat actually has bepārī बेपारी / بیپاری "capitalist, trader" which is an even better fit. https://udb.gov.pk/result_details.php?word=48642 عُثمان (talk) 12:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that's very insightful. Thanks for your changes/improvements! tbm (talk) 04:11, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Punjabi ਸਿੱਖੀ and ਸਿੱਖ

English Sikhi refers to ਸਿੱਖੀ (sikkhī). I copied that to Swahili Usikh but maybe ਸਿੱਖ (sikkha) is more correct?

Do you think you could create ਸਿੱਖੀ (sikkhī) and update the Swahili Usikh with what you think is the best match. Thanks! tbm (talk) 03:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

@Tbm I think Usikh likely just comes from ਸਿੱਖ since the more common way to describe the religion in Punjabi is "sikkh mat" or "sikkh dharam". (Sikkh is actually a verb in Punjabi meaning “to learn” of which ਸਿੱਖੀ is a form ( https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Lexeme:L1216602#F20 )—I am actually hesitant to create an entry for it as I have some unresolved disagreements about the way Punjabi verbs are modeled on here.) عُثمان (talk) 11:32, 4 March 2024 (UTC)