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WelcomeEdit

Welcome to Wiktionary ! :) Leasnam (talk) 21:28, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. ː) Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 16:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

roufanEdit

Hi Leornendeealdenglisc ! I just saw the entry at roufan...does the Reference (An Old High German Primer) really show this word spelt as such ? I just have only seen it as ruofan/ruofen... Leasnam (talk) 21:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Hello Leasnam, Yeah it is because the tricky thing is that from Wright's second edition primer we have "Roufan" to call but in Gerald Koebler's Althochdeutch's dictionary there is Roufen which means to pull. Here's a link to thatː http://www.koeblergerhard.de/ahd/5A/ahd_r.html I think the many spellings are a result of the many dialects in the language.

Okay...yeah I see the roufen (to pull, tousle)...but do you think that the more usual spelling for "to call" (Modern rufen) might come from ruofan instead ? Leasnam (talk) 21:43, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Maybe, but I'm on the fence because even today's dialects of German, one can argue one way or the other. However, I am unsure for the about the conjugation, specifically the 'rief' part. It was based from the Houwen conjugation template where it had "hiew".

Well, I'm specifically referring to the vowel ou. I think the correct form is with uo. Doing a search for roufan + "Old High German" turns up a different verb, if anything at all (4 results) see here [[1]]. I'm pretty confident the OHG form was ruofan or ruofen for "call", see results here [[2]]. uo is the expected outcome of Proto-Germanic ō in Old High German, not ou. ou comes from PGmc au. Leasnam (talk) 01:31, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Leasnam, I have made a mistake. Even in the Old High German Primer by Joseph Wright, it says "ruofan" for to call. I shall mend this.

No worries man. Thanks :) Leasnam (talk) 02:26, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
Are you able to move the page ? I think a move to roufen makes sense Leasnam (talk) 03:36, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

I wish I can but I don't know how to.

When you're on the entry page for roufan, up at the top where you see the tabs: Read, Edit, +, History, ...do you see a dropdown which reads "More" ? If so, click on it and select "Move" Leasnam (talk) 03:59, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
If you do not see this, let me know and I'll move it for you Leasnam (talk) 04:00, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Ah, cheers, mate. I moved it. ː)

Whohooo!!! Leasnam (talk) 04:12, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

nonexistent .wem filesEdit

Why are you adding these? DTLHS (talk) 04:52, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

To help those with pronunciation in Old English. —This unsigned comment was added by Leornendeealdenglisc (talkcontribs).

@DTLHS: It looks like it's from @Yair rand's audio recording tool which is still broken. —suzukaze (tc) 04:54, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Ah okay. I did not know that. Leornendeealdenglisc

bercanEdit

Hi Cefin ! I see you created a page for bercan. Thank you ! I'm having difficulty finding this variant though...can you steer me in the right direction please ? Leasnam (talk) 05:41, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

ː Hey Leasnam, I found "bercan" on this pageː https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_Old_English. Do CTRL F and put in "*berkaną > bercan "to bark"".

Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 07:57, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia pages really shouldn't be used as a source, IMO. I did manage to find bercan (several mentions, but no uses/attestations) in a few other places, alongside borcian Leasnam (talk) 20:21, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

ːː I suppose that bercan would fall under "reconstruction"? Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 14:03, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

If it's normal for Anglian -erc- to correspond to WS -eorc- then I don't see why you couldn't have an entry for it as a reconstruction Leasnam (talk) 12:41, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

froweEdit

Hello ! I reverted your edit at frōwe regarding the macron. Although it is not shown in some sources (B&T, et al.) it's probable that the o-vowel was long. We can be fairly certain of this due to the Pgmc form (PGmc ō > OE ō). An Old English frŏwe would indicate a PGmc *fruwǭ, which I do not believe is reconstructible solely based on Old English alone. It's more likely that B&T missed off on the macron. Leasnam (talk) 18:13, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Saterland Frisian pronunciationEdit

There is a guide here which you may find helpful [[3]] :) Leasnam (talk) 15:53, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

ː Thank you, Leasnam. I had been using this. All the best to you. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 15:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

   However, Leasnam, the page you've given me here doesn't explain when the 'g' makes its sounds. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 16:00, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
It does. It can be either /ɡ/, /ɣ/; or /x/. It reads "/ɡ~ɣ/, /x/". I believe that the g alternates between /ɣ/ and /x/ depending on position within the word (Wikipedia says Voiced velar fricative, unvoiced in the syllable coda and before an unvoiced consonant. and that the alternation between /ɡ/ and /ɣ/ is due to German influence, with the younger generations preferring /ɡ/ over /ɣ/. I think that the pronunciation now at njuugen is fine according to this. Leasnam (talk) 19:43, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Old English Declension TablesEdit

I think, that the declension tables for Old English should have definite and indefinite articles in them, just like the declension tables for German. What do you think? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 16:21, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm mixed about it. Early Old English didn't really use def and indef articles but only until later. HOWEVER, on the positive side, it would help learners with remembering the gender of nouns. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 16:27, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Since that's the case, you could have that statement on Early Old English in the templates. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 16:33, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Or in the policy WT:AANG. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 16:36, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
There, I've added the statement under Nouns in WT:AANG. However, I mean se/sêo/ did become ðe/þēo in later Old English. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 16:46, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Now that I thought about it. I think leaving the articles out may be a good thing because they differ when it comes to dialects. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 17:10, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Pages Created in ErrorEdit

If you create a page and realize you made a mistake in doing so, don't move it to a talk page or anything like that. Just add the {{delete}} template or one of its aliases. As long as no one else has added any important content, it will be deleted. It will help if you can explain why it needs to be deleted in the first parameter: {{d|misspelling}}. This template is only for obvious cases where no discussion is required- if it's not obvious, use another template: If you don't think a term exists, use {{rfv}} and use the "+" to post a request in the appropriate rfv forum. If you think it should be deleted because of other provisions in the Criteria for inclusion, use {{rfd}} and post to an rfd forum. If it's a category, appendix, reconstruction or other page outside the main part of the dictionary, use {{rfdo}}. Finally, if you think it should be moved, merged, or split, use {{rfm}}. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 19:32, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

ːː Oh okay. Thank you. ː) Good to knowǃ Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 19:33, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Alternative spelling entriesEdit

Hey, when creating entries for alternative regional spellings of OE terms, please keep it simple and make it refer (via {{alternative form of}} or {{alternative spelling of}}) to a single main entry at which the proper definition is given and info re:alt forms and etymology etc. is contained. See for example siolufr -> seolfor. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 13:02, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Gotcha. It's just I've been adding so many. Don't worry I'll get to it. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 13:04, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Good to hear, keep up the great work :) — Mnemosientje (t · c) 13:05, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Would using (via {{alternative forms}} be okay too? Because doing "alternative form of" would imply that there is a "Main Old English dialect" while there are others to consider. I mean, unfortunately most people today see Old English as a "Monolithic language". Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 13:21, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Whatever works to keep info mainly concentrated on one main entry. It probably would be best to take the most commonly encountered dialect for the main entry, so probably the West Saxon form? (but I'm not knowledgable about OE dialects and which would be the most common.) If you still want to emphasize that there isn't a "standard" form despite what having a main entry with alt form entries would suggest, just add the dialect in a {{label}} on the main entry as well. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 13:47, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

frēohEdit

Hey there again ! I see you made frēoh, which looks very similar to frēo...why wouldn't frēoh simply be an alternative form of frēo ? Is it really so distinct ? Leasnam (talk) 04:36, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

ː The differentiation would be the dialect and period between them. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

ː I would not want West Saxon to be the main dialect while others should be known too. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 17:46, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

But the Anglian Late West Saxon word means exactly the same thing...there isn't anything distinct about it, except for the headword form with -h. This is a redundancy and wastes space. It should be listed as an "Alternative form/spelling of frēo" and should include a Pronunciation guide, an Inflection/Declension table and that's it. Leasnam (talk) 14:25, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Just to be clear, Anglian and Late WS forms when different or unique should have entries. I'm not saying that this entry shouldn't exist, but it should point to the existing one (frēo), regardless of which dialect the existing entry is. Conversely, if an Anglian/LWS form already exists, and I create an entry for the WS alternative form, I would point it to the Anglian/LWS entry. There is no preference here of WS over Anglian, but we do want to limit any redundancy. Leasnam (talk) 14:28, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
My bad, it's not labelled Anglian but Late West Saxon. Nevertheless, everything should still apply Leasnam (talk) 00:36, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

cicenEdit

The nom/acc plural of ċicen is ċicenu. If the vowel is long, how can it terminate in -u ? Leasnam (talk) 23:33, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

ː Joseph Wright's Grammar on Old English has Anglian "Chicken" as "cīcen". Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 23:36, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

ː All I did was catagorise and add the form "ċīcen" to Anglian. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 23:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Okay...I gotcha ;) Leasnam (talk) 23:47, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Based on the 2 possible Etymologies, we might be seeing a fusion of two separates words here: *ċīecen (also ċīcen, ċȳcen) from Proto-Germanic *kiukīną; and a second from *kukkiną. How can we resolve this ? We cannot in the Declension show ċȳcenu...that's just not right ! Leasnam (talk) 23:45, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

ː Wright says that Ciecen comes from Germanic iu and cīcen from Germanic ī Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 00:02, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Sometimes we see the vowel simplifying over time īe > ȳ > ī ; so an OE ī can come from multiple origins: cf. OE ċīġan [a.k.a. ċȳġan, ċīeġan, even ċēġan] all from PGmc *kawjaną Leasnam (talk) 00:23, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Yep. I've changed the entries to be able to handle both (for now), as there seems to be evidence in support of both a long and short vowelled version. It might have even started out as a long vowel, then became short over time, who knows?? I've left a message on Metaknowedge's TalkPage to get his thoughts on it as well. Leasnam (talk) 00:12, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

cniht, incnihtEdit

The pronunciation at cniht still shows /kniçt/...are we certain that -iht was pronounced as /ixt/ vs /içt/ ? Leasnam (talk) 20:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I believe that /içt/ is correct, and is the IPA used in other similar words (riht, niht, etc.). I've reverted the edit. Leasnam (talk) 20:19, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

ː Joseph Wright's Grammar of Old English argues that the medial 'h' takes the sound of Modern German's 'ch' in Nacht and noch both of which have the IPAː [x] sound. This can be found on page 11. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 20:24, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

In words like eahta, wrōhte, sure; but i is further forward, thus it would be more likely produce the sound as in German nicht. Leasnam (talk) 03:19, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

ː Alright, which Grammar book author argues specifically that? Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 15:34, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Well, no one really knows exactly how OE was pronounced. It's possible that it could have been either. It's probably an allophone of /x/ for front vowels (it's really difficult to pronounce /knixt/ without it tending to lead into /kniçt/, imo). I'm just carrying forth what's already been accepted as the pronunciation here, and at Wikipedia. If we need to change it, I'm perfectly fine with it, just so long as we're consistent and change it everywhere. In PGmc the sound was most likely /x/, and in early OE it's quite possible that it may have been so as well. Maybe even later too, who knows. We can always show both. Leasnam (talk) 16:53, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
I find it hard to believe that a language which palatalises all and everything as aggressively and consistently as Old English would stop randomly at a single fricative of all things, especially as the other fricatives and stops of this articulatory places are beyond doubt fully palatalised, even to the point of affricatisation. Unless Wright specifically argues that it's the sound of "Nacht and noch and not of 'nicht'", I'd assume he just trying to explain to an English lay audience that it's a dorsal fricative, not mute or [f] as in modern times. After all, if he really wanted to be specific, he could have just put ⟨[ç]⟩ in his grammar, but he forewent this. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 00:43, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Low German categoryEdit

Collecting Low German entries by category is a good thought, but 'regional Low German' makes no sense, as all Low German is regional by nature. It should be moved to 'Low German by region'. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 00:36, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Template syntax in mainspaceEdit

You should never copy the wikitext from a template directly into an entry, or substitute a template that's not designed specifically to be substituted- it's a nightmare for other editors to work with, and we have abuse filters that look for such things- so it will get removed sooner or later anyway. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 04:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Are you talking about the entry to Wōden? I had to do that so I can put in the correct declension. What should have I done? Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 04:46, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

@Leornendeealdenglisc, I've edited Wōden to display what you had there originally for Declension, using an existing template to facilitate this. Please have a look. Thanks ! Leasnam (talk) 19:36, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
@Leasnam, you're a saint. Thank you. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 22:00, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

bæurnEdit

Hi ! I saw you added an alternative form to bearn, but I seem to be unable to locate anything as "bæurn" or "baeurn" or any of their declined forms. Could you please share where you found this ? Leasnam (talk) 20:49, 24 September 2018 (UTC)

Hello, Leasnamǃ Sorry for the late reply. I first found the word in Peter S. Baker's Introduction to Old English Third Edition. It's on page 196. Where he talks about the stone at Great Urswick, Cumbria. It has the word "bæurnæ". Baker interprets this word as the singular dative of Bæurn 'child'. As well, here's a link to the textː https://quod.lib.umich.edu/f/frag/9772151.0006.004/--runes-and-commemoration-in-anglo-saxon-england?rgn=main;view=fulltext

Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 01:17, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

Oh okay. Interesting. Leasnam (talk) 02:12, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Wrong link formattingEdit

Please do not format links like you did in diff. Each term should be in its own template, not combined like you did here. If they are combined, this means that the entire thing is one term, which is obviously not what you meant. —Rua (mew) 16:07, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

geolEdit

I undid your edit. It seems unclear how this word was pronounced. It could have been either /jeːol/ or /joːl/. Both seem valid. What makes you certain that it is ġēol ? Leasnam (talk) 02:04, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Because the stress is always on the first part of the diphthong like every other word. I don't see why it would be any different for ġēol and its variants. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 04:30, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

If the Old English word were pronounced /joːl/, how would it be spelt in Old English ? It couldn't be spelt gōl, that would be /goːl/. A clue lies in the Alternative spellings iol (iōl) and iul (iūl).
Compare the Old English for "young", geong. It certainly wasn't pronounced /jeoŋɡ/, as written; it was /juŋɡ/ or possibly /joŋɡ/, because we know it descended from PGmc *jungaz. I know of no sound law that changes PGmc /u/ to /e/ in OE then breaks it to /eo/, then converts it back to /u/ and /ʌ/ in modern English. So based on this we know that the graph ge was also used for rendering /j/ in at least some words.
Based on the PGmc plural form *jeulō, OE could have levelled the form to ġēol /jeːol/, with a long diphthong in all cases. But what strikes me most is that we find no Middle English descendants yele or yeel for ġēol, we invariably (except for one early attestation) find Middle English ȝol(e), ȝoule, yol(e), youle, etc. Now, it's hard to say to what extent Old Norse jól may have played a role in influencing the ME form. It may have or not. In fact, the ON word may have even been borrowed into OE as well...we can only speculate. This is why I leave the possibility that it could have been spelt either ġēol or ġeōl. Leasnam (talk) 03:46, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Okay. I agree. It is possible that both pronunciations were around. Good Yuleǃ ː) Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 03:49, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Happy Yule to you ! :) Leasnam (talk) 03:52, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Etymology of Gothic aistanEdit

Hey, I was wondering if you saw my tag at Talk:𐌰𐌹𐍃𐍄𐌰𐌽. I'm not sure how the Proto-Germanic form given in the etymology you recently added would yield the attested Gothic form. Also please remember to use the {{der}} template and its daughter templates ({{bor}}, {{inh}} etc.) in etymologies (for categorization). — Mnemosientje (t · c) 13:47, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Just noticed it's listed over at *h₂eysd- as a descendant of *aistēną (citing Kroonen), however, afaik we don't have verbs ending in *-ēną (we seem to standardize differently). @Rua - am I correct in thinking it'd be *aistāną according to how we do PGmc.? — Mnemosientje (t · c) 15:10, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
There's a bit of a problem with how we currently handle class 3 weak verbs. Kroonen's *-ēną doesn't seem plausible, because then you'd have the ē > ā shift in North and West Germanic and end up in OHG with *-ān, which is not the attested -ēn. It would also require that > a in Gothic medial syllables, which would be an ad-hoc proposition as there are no other cases of it. At the same time, I don't know if there is any evidence about whether ē > ā applies in Northwest Germanic medial syllables. It didn't happen in Old Norse final syllables, at least, where unstressed *-ē > i, while West Germanic has -a in this position. In any case, Ringe's stance is that the ē in OHG originates from Proto-Germanic *ai, and connects this with the ai~a alternation of Gothic. He posits that the a of Gothic must be ā.
A related problem is that some class 3 weak verbs appear with j Old Norse and/or northern West Germanic, with "to have" as the most important example. Under Ringe's view, these come from PIE statives and should actually be the majority of class 3 weak verbs, but that clearly does not match the relic status that these verbs have (OHG and Gothic have ousted this class entirely). So I'm not really sure what we should make of it all. —Rua (mew) 15:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
@Rua Alright, I'll leave the Proto-Germanic form empty then for now and just note the ultimate derivation from *h₂eysd-, which in any case makes more sense than the currently claimed inheritance from *aizijaną. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:11, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

efnesecganEdit

Hi Leornendeealdenglisc ! I saw you created efnesecgan based on a snippet at gegaderian. When I read the text Gegeadriges efnesæcgas féwero doesn't it translate as "four fellow-warriors agree" ? Leasnam (talk) 02:10, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I would think so because the ł represents 'vel' meaning "or" to show a synonym. 02:43, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Ah ok gotcha. However, I believe the "agree" belongs to gegaderian (please see). efnesæcgas doesn't look like it might be a verb, but a noun. Surface analysis, it looks eerily like the plural of *efensecg (co-hero, fellow-warrior), cf. efencempa Leasnam (talk) 02:46, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Okay I made an error. I thought it was a verb because in some Northumbrian words especially of the 2nd person indicative the final -t is sometimes omitted. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 02:59, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Yep, Northumbrian verbs do do that. Leasnam (talk) 03:01, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
You wanna know something...the more I think on this, the more I'm beginning to think you may be right. Here's why:
1). There is a similar verb efencuman which has almost the same construction and meaning: "come together, assemble, convene, agree".
2). fēwero (i.e. fēowero) could also be nominative plural. This makes it possible for efnesæcgas (i.e. efenseċġað) to be a Northumbrian plural verb.
So that leaves us with efnesæcgas fēwero (= efenseċġað fēowero "four agree").
I'm going to reinstate your entry. I did find a couple other mentions of efensecgan, but I am relying on the attestation you provided where the Latin clearly says "four agree".
The wrength is mine. Leasnam (talk) 03:52, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Once reinstated, we may want to move it to a more normalised headword, efensecgan...do you have any objection to this ? Leasnam (talk) 03:55, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I do not object. I am glad you had a re-think about this. Thank you. Leornendeealdenglisc (talk) 04:13, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

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