RcAlex36

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Yulin Cantonese

Hi, I'm wondering where you're getting your data for Yulin Cantonese from. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:25, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung From this paper, which contains some vocabulary: 梁忠东. (2006). 广西玉林话的粤语系属. 方言, 4, 364-373. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:30, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Nice, thanks! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:55, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Doumen-T and Doumen-S

Hi, thanks for your additions to the dialectal synonym modules. I just wanted to make sure you knew what these two locations refer to. Doumen-T refers to Tanka spoken in Shangheng (斗門上橫水上話) and Doumen-S refers to Siyi spoken in Doumen Town (斗門鎮). 广东粤方言概要 confusingly calls Doumen-T 斗门. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:44, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung Seems like I have mixed them up. Thanks for the reminder! RcAlex36 (talk) 03:47, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

No problem! By the way, you might want to take a look at MOD:zh/data/dial and MOD:zh/data/dial-syn. I usually use the second one to make it easier to get all the locations in the usual order. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:50, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Creating entries

Hi RcAlex36, thanks for your edits and new entries! Could I suggest that you try using {{zh-n}} to make new entries - this can help to minimize errors like this. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:37, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

thank you

Many thanks for the entries you've created, especially the chengyus as we are lacking a bit in that department. Here's two lists that you might find helpful as a reference: User:Tooironic/Chengyu list and User:Tooironic/Suyu list. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:39, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

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Sincerely,

RMaung (WMF) 14:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

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Sincerely,

RMaung (WMF) 19:14, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

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Could you review a recent edit...

In the first part of this edit you add a quotation for 為#Pronunciation 1. But it seems that '為' defaults to tone 4? Later in your change you use a form - 為{wéi} - apparently to _force_ the correct tone for this pronunciation. Is that all that is missing from "為所欲為", and using something like "為{wéi}所欲為{wéi}" would make it correct? Shenme (talk) 05:19, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

蒙驢拉磨

Hello, I happened upon the terms 蒙驢拉磨, which I added to 拉 as an example phrase, and 蒙驢. What do you think of the terms? --Apisite (talk) 10:18, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Apisite: The Internet seems to suggest the reason why donkeys are blindfolded when pulling the mill is to prevent them from going dizzy and losing balance. Anyway, 蒙驢拉磨 does not seem to be an idiomatic chengyu in the Chinese language; at least I have never heard of it. RcAlex36 (talk) 10:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

I found the four-character phrase at Minghui out of curiosity. --Apisite (talk) 10:32, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Apisite: As far as I know, it isn't a commonly used expression. I'm just curious though, why does a donkey move when whipped only when it's blindfolded? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:37, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser What do you think? --Apisite (talk) 10:53, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@沈澄心? --Apisite (talk) 05:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

@Apisite: I have also never heard of it. Here's another quotation at [1]. --沈澄心✉ 09:34, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Can you help editing?

I started the programs of Manchu Wikinews/Even Wikivoyage, Even Wiktionary/Even Wikibooks, Evenki Wiktionary/Evenki Wikibooks, Oroqen Wiktionary/Oroqen Wiktionary/Oroqen Wikibooks, Negidal Wiktionary/Negidal Wiktionary/Negidal Wikibooks, Udege Wiktionary/Udege Wikibooks, Oroch Wiktionary/Oroch Wiktionary/Oroch Wikibooks, Nanai Wiktionary/Nanai Wikibooks, Ulch Wiktionary/Ulch Wiktionary/Ulch Wikibooks, Orok Wiktionary/Orok Wikibooks on 14th July, 2020. If you know at least one of these Tungusic languages, can you help editing? (talk) 11:02, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

@MiiCii: Sorry I don't actually know any Tungusic languages. I was mostly copying information in dictionaries when I was editing Manchu entries in the past. RcAlex36 (talk) 11:31, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, thanks. (talk) 12:12, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Taiwanese Hakka

Just FYI - for now, this is how the dialects in 臺灣客家語常用詞辭典 are dealt with: Sixian (northern) -> Miaoli; Southern Sixian -> Liudui; Hailu -> Hsinchu; Dabu -> Dongshi; Raoping -> Raoping; Zhao'an -> Yunlin. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:39, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Huiyang

Hi, do you have a source for Huiyang (like for diff)? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:40, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I'm just using 惠阳县志 (2003). RcAlex36 (talk) 07:42, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Is it online anywhere? I couldn't find it after the e-library in 广东省情网 was taken down. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:58, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Here. By the way, I got almost all of my material from this website. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:02, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, so do you have to login? I can only access the first 10 pages. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:23, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yes you need to register, and you need to have a mainland e-mail account to receive the stuff you request (I tried Gmail, didn't seem to work). You click 图书馆文献传递 on the right and it leads to another page. You can only request at most 50 pages each day though. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:27, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I tried Gmail as well and it didn't work. I guess I'll have to make a mainland e-mail account then. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:33, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Sometimes it takes a while to receive the stuff you request, but usually it arrives within 30 minutes (don't know why there can be delays when it's electronic lol). RcAlex36 (talk) 08:38, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Hmm looks like Gmail actually worked for me. It was just a delay. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:43, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Alright. Have fun reading it! RcAlex36 (talk) 08:45, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know about this website! Looks like there's lots more resources we can tap into. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:51, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Teochew Resources

@RcAlex36 Hey, I'm just curious what resources you have in Teochew. Thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 10:14, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser:

• General: mogher, 潮州音字典, 新編潮州音字典, 新潮汕字典（精編本）, 潮汕方言歷時研究, 潮汕方言詞考釋, 潮汕方言詞續考, 廣東閩方言語音研究
• Chaozhou: 潮州市志, 漢語方言詞彙
• Shantou: 廣州話、客家話、潮汕話與普通話對照詞典, 汕頭方言詞彙（二、三、四）(一 is mysteriously missing), 汕頭市志, 廣東省志方言志, 廣東汕頭方言詞彙及其文化研究
• Jieyang: 潮普雙言語辭典
• Chenghai: 澄海方言研究
• Johor Bahru: 馬來西亞的三種漢語方言
• Haifeng (if you count this as Teochew): 廣東海豐方言研究, 海豐話分類辭表 (a custom-made pdf), 海豐話與汕頭話詞彙差異說略

— This unsigned comment was added by RcAlex36 (talk • contribs) at 10:27, 1 August 2020 (UTC).

Conventions for naming 方言點

Hi, thanks for adding those 方言點. I just wanted to point out some conventions that I've been trying to keep. First, many administrative divisions have changed because of reorganization and development. This means we need to check what the current administrative divisions are and not use old place names. For example, Panlong is no longer administered by Gan County but by Zhanggong District. Second, I try to keep everything at the county level except when it's within the urban districts, which is when I would use the prefecture-level city name. All smaller divisions would be placed in brackets. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:24, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks for your reminder. I was looking at 廣西漢語方言研究 earlier and one of the recorded Cantonese 方言點 is 北流 (唐僚). However, I did a quick search and could not find where 唐僚 is. Do you have any idea about its location? RcAlex36 (talk) 06:29, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Write these things down as documentation :P —Suzukaze-c (talk) 06:34, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I'm not sure either. It's probably a village, but I can't seem to find anything. @Suzukaze-c: I was going to 😅. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:37, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: There is a place called 塘寮 in the north of the city though (and there's also a 塘寮坡 which is far from 塘寮). I've read other sources on the difference between some varieties of Beiliu Cantonese. The phonology given in 廣西漢語方言研究 seems to suggest 唐僚 is in the northern part of the city. What's for sure is it isn't the city centre variety. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

It's likely 塘寮 then, but I'm not sure what kind of admin division it'd be (or if it is any). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:55, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Chongqing

Hi Alex, I'm just wondering where you got 重庆方言志 from. It doesn't seem to accessible through 全国图书馆参考咨询联盟. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I used sites that scour 百度網盤, but I can email you directly. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:51, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

If you could, that'd be great! Thanks! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:52, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Wanhua

Hi, just letting you know that 艋舺 (Wanhua) in 台灣閩南語次方言常用詞彙調查研究 should not be considered Taipei. I've considered it the same as Taipei before, but I've been taking them out. Eventually, it should be added to module. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Ok. There's no Pingtan because 閩東方言詞彙語法研究 has no Pingtan. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:04, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I think you accidentally put something in Pingtan (instead of Yongtai). It can be hard to keep things straight with all these dialects 😅 — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:09, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Oh I didn't realize. Thanks for the reminder! RcAlex36 (talk) 16:10, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I'm just wondering why we don't consider Wanhua as Taipei. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:15, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

My understanding is that Taipei recorded in most sources is a New Tong'an dialect (新同安腔), whereas Wanhua is a New Anxi dialect (新安溪腔). I can't be entirely sure since our main source, 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典, doesn't really tell us. The dialect recorded in 台灣閩南語次方言常用詞彙調查研究 doesn't show those Anxi features though, so maybe it has to do with the age of the informant as well? It's kind of complicated. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:39, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I see. Thanks! RcAlex36 (talk) 16:51, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Peh-oe-ji

Do we not create separate pages for peh-oe-ji, cause I've found a couple others like that. Fluoromethyl (talk) 15:34, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Fluoromethyl: If it can be written in Chinese character, it's just a page that leads you back to the entry with Chinese characters (see ji̍t-thâu). RcAlex36 (talk) 15:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: So can I still make pages for peh-oe-ji, but just put links to their han character equivalents (if any) on them? Fluoromethyl (talk) 15:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@Fluoromethyl: Making them is sort of pointless in my opinion... RcAlex36 (talk) 15:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I see. Thanks for the advice. Fluoromethyl (talk) 15:42, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

字如其人

Thanks for editing my entry. Sorry about that, I found it in a quora post but I couldn't find much about it beyond that purpleculture website. Fluoromethyl (talk) 12:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@Fluoromethyl: That's alright. You can stick to creating and editing entries you are more familiar with. Everything in your entry was 文如其人 just now. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:47, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@Fluoromethyl: You should also consult Chinese sources. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: how do I find those? Do you know of any reputable monolingual dictionaries or databases I could use? Fluoromethyl (talk) 15:48, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@Fluoromethyl: I suspect 字如其人 is a relatively recent saying and thus is not recorded in dictionaries. I usually work with 國語辭典 and 漢語大詞典. Of course, you need to have a good knowledge of Chinese to use these sources. Alternatively, google the term and find usage of it (e.g. news and forum) and try to deduce the meaning yourself, but I do this only when the particular word is not recorded in dictionaries. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@Fluoromethyl: 現代漢語詞典 is also good. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:58, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: sounds good. Thanks for the help. Fluoromethyl (talk) 16:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Penang Hokkien

Just so you know, there is the web-site you can refer to for Penang Hokkien entries. The dog2 (talk) 16:25, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Thanks for letting me know! I was primary using 檳城福建話研究. RcAlex36 (talk) 16:27, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Wasei Kango

Just wondering what sources you're using for these. You should be citing some sources cuz claims are often made really loosely without justification/evidence. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:17, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I was using 新華外來詞詞典. I also check against [2]. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:07, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: You should go back and cite where appropriate. I think you've also removed some etymologies from Japanese - you might want to rfv-etymology instead or ask whoever added the etymology. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:27, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung:  Done. Feel free to rfv-etymology any of them if you see fit. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, okay, thanks... I'd be better if you cited with {{zh-ref}}, like we usually do, but what you did works, I guess. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:28, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: If it looks unsightly to you we can always change it. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:30, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Minority languages in Hong Kong

Just thought you might be interested, here's clips of several Hong Kong celebrities speaking Shanghainese, Chow Yun-fat speaking Hakka and Bobby Yip speaking Hokkien. Raymond Lam also speaks Hokkien, but unfortunately, the clip of him speaking Hokkien had its audio disabled by Youtube. The dog2 (talk) 18:36, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung Speaking of which, should we have an entry for Hong Kong Teochew? The dog2 (talk) 18:37, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I don't think we have enough resources for it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:38, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: If I'm not wrong, RcAlex36 is Teochew, so maybe his parents will know how to speak it. The dog2 (talk) 18:44, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: My parents just speak Cantonese (and only one side of my family has Teochew ancestry). Plus there isn't a single Teochew variety in HK. Teochew speakers just speak the variety of Teochew of wherever they or their parents come from. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:04, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

We sent you an e-mail

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肚䏙

Hi Alex, I noted you reverted my edit on 肚䏙 as a synonym of 肚/肚子. As far as I understand, the term has a minor connotation of a large belly similar to 肚腩, but surely this wouldn't disqualify it as a synonym? Perhaps you understand the term differently to me. In case that it might not qualify as a direct synonym, I wonder how it can be presented as a loose synonym so that it can be linked and visible from the pages for 肚, 肚子 and the like. Zywxn (talk) 15:18, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

@Zywxn: That's a synonym of 肚腩, not 肚子. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:22, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

房間

Just interested to know, where did you get the Singaporean Cantonese word for this? You're not wrong, but I'm just interested to know the source. The dog2 (talk) 05:26, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Probably from this. RcAlex36 (talk)

Question about Cantonese readings

Just wanted to ask, is it true that when reading 唐詩, if the character 車 shows up, you have to read it as geoi¹ and not ce¹ The dog2 (talk) 19:11, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yes. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:42, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. This phenomenon is very common in Hokkien, where most characters have at least two separate readings, one called 文讀音 and one called 白讀音, and you have to use 文讀音 when reading 唐詩. Didn't realise it was present in Cantonese too. The dog2 (talk) 03:25, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: You can't call this 文白異讀. The two pronunciations have different Old Chinese reconstructions. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:31, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Western varieties of Cantonese

Just wondering if there are resources about varieties of Cantonese spoken in Western cities, such as New York, San Francisco, Toronto, Vancouver, London, Sydney and Melbourne. Perth might also have a local variety of Cantonese, except that is will more based on Malaysian Cantonese than Hong Kong Cantonese. The dog2 (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think I've mentioned this, but I'll repeat myself. I'm currently doing research on Cantonese in Toronto, but I don't know if it's appropriate to have these in the tables (if that's what you're thinking about) since they are exonormative and much more variable from person-to-person and/or generation-to-generation. The 2nd generation (children of the 1st generation immigrants) also tends not to use Cantonese among each other. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:34, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I don't know if they are first generation or not, but I hear Taishanese quite a fair bit when I go to Chinatown here in Chicago. And apparently, the Taishanese people came here in the 19th century to build the railways, while those who came after World War II tend to be from Hong Kong or Guangzhou and speak standard Cantonese instead. So it is certainly possible that the Taishanese I hear is being spoken by 2nd or even 3rd generation Chinese-Americans. Don't forget that segregation was very common until well into the 20th century, so these Taishanese people and their descendants would have had to live in segregated communities of only Chinese people. The dog2 (talk) 19:50, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yeah, I think Taishanese in certain Chinatowns could possibly be documented here, but I don't think there's "fieldwork-style" vocabularies because that's not what linguists in the West (at least in North America) like to do. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:53, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Hainanese

Do you know of any Hainanese dictionaries available as a pdf online? Thanks Fluoromethyl (talk) 22:07, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

@Fluoromethyl: 海口方言词典. I can send you the pdf by email if you want. RcAlex36 (talk) 01:39, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: That'd be awesome, thanksFluoromethyl (talk) 11:32, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

@Fluoromethyl: You can simply enable email settings on Wiktionary. It's under Preferences. RcAlex36 (talk) 11:35, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Done. Fluoromethyl (talk) 11:45, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Revert Edit on 我們

Why did you revert my note on 我們? I was working on trying to explain the different between the two Chinese words for us (我們/咱們) and you reverted the one on 我們. Your revert said that 咱們 is perceived as a Northern term, which I had in my note. Is there anything that I can do to improve the note? Languageseeker (talk) 13:08, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: "我們/我们 can be used in both formal or colloquial speech and generally excludes the person being spoken to." is a rather prescriptivist statement. In many parts of southern China there is no inclusive vs exclusive we distinction in their regional putonghua. Of course, the prescriptive standard for Standard Mandarin, 现代汉语词典, specifies 我們 is the exclusive we, but "in some situations" can also include the listener. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:15, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@Languageseeker: Also, just wondering where you got "in certain cases, 咱們／咱们 (zánmen) refers to either the speaker + others or the listener + others". RcAlex36 (talk) 13:17, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I was just about to 我們. Is this better? "Note: 我们 can be used in both formal or colloquial speech and can either include or excludes the person being spoken to. In Northern China, 咱们 is more commonly used for the inclusive sense." Languageseeker (talk) 13:29, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

I revised the usage note on 咱们 based on Ross and Ma, Modern Chinese Grammar.

@Languageseeker: Looks fine, but you may want to specify that in colloquial speech in northern China, 我們 is the exclusive we. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:40, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Blocks of wood? Two fish?

Hi colleague, I'm trying to open a discussion in a foreign Wiki project, it's my first time! I am currently working of the glyph origins of some radicals and some characters (I am from Wikipedia.it, the Italian version) and from time to time I put some missing meanings in the English Wiktionary. I think I have found a mistake in the glyph origin of a character 冓: are they "blocks of wood"? I already know other similar characters and I swear I see two fish:

• https://www.zdic.net/zd/zx/jw/%E5%86%93 (bronze);
• https://www.zdic.net/zd/zx/jg/%E5%86%93 (bones)

Is that wood? "-.- Cicognac (talk) 17:51, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cicognac: "Blocks of wood" is the explanation given in Shuowen, which is evidently wrong. The oracle bone script indeed consists of two 魚, and 冓 is the result of corruption. The character is likely originally intended for 遘 (gòu, “to meet”). (see 漢語多功能字庫). RcAlex36 (talk) 17:58, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Mh, I was right. Can you put a small correction or notice or something like that in the definition? I see them in some definitions. If I find more errors I'll try to warn you. Cicognac (talk) 18:05, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

A calyx? Roots?

Hi, I saw the character 不, which is described as a calyx, but I saw the oracle bones versions and I found this: https://www.zdic.net/zd/zx/jg/%E4%B8%8D. I see some roots that grow out of a seed in the soil (the seed disappears from time to time), as some scholars point out. Many other characters derive from bu4, including 胚, "embryo" Do you see a calyx? Cicognac (talk) 09:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cicognac: Firstly, 胚 isn't "derived from bu4" (not sure what you meant by that), but it was indeed written as 肧 in Shuowen. 胚 is an embryo, which is pretty different from what you have described. 字源 agrees that the script 不 was the original form of 柎 (OC *po, “ovary; calyx”). RcAlex36 (talk) 13:39, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I already know that variant. So the upper part of bu4 is a calyx directly connected with roots? I see three roots in the lower part. That is to say, I see this: https://5b0988e595225.cdn.sohucs.com/images/20181123/9c9687da1d9c43f890afa77266b1c610.jpeg Cicognac (talk) 13:53, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cicognac: Semantically that's still quite some distance from 胚. According to Guo Moruo, the inverted triangle is the ovary while the "branches" are stamens and styles. By the way,《汉字字源》 is a pretty bad source in my opinion and can hardly be considered an academic source. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:04, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I already know that, from time to time I find some mistakes in this book (clearly, I can't correct them, that's not Wikipedia...). I'll try to deepen your interpretation. I discussed both of them in my article. Do you usually use the sources in the page https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:About_Chinese/references#T? I'm just asking out of curiosity. I really appreciate the Multi-Function Dictionary you gave me yesterday. Cicognac (talk) 14:13, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cicognac: I often use 《說文新證》 and 《字源》. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

I also use the Shuowen Jiezi and I always look at the glosses by Xu Xuan and Duan Yucai (Wenyan is quite hard). Unluckily, Xu Shen didn't know about the oracle bones and the bronze inscriptions. Next time I'll start using the Multi-Function Dictionary, which is my/our new source (many Italian Wikipedians and readers will start consulting it if I quote and use it). When I'll start a research about the etymologies, I'll use Schuessler and the STED database by James Matisoff (Unluckily, Schuessler's and Baxter's reconstruction of Old Chinese are quite different: for instance, Baxter put pharyngealization in the "sillables-A group", while Schuessler didn't). Is "Ziyuan" a book or a website? Who is the author? Cicognac (talk) 14:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@Cicognac: Ziyuan is a 3-volume 1420 page book, the chief editor of which is the late 李學勤. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Mmmh, I love big books (seriously). Later on I'll check some of the sources in that huge page. The dictionary by Schuessler and "Old Chinese" (2014) by Baxter-Sagart can be downloaded by PDF Drive, which is full of free sources (you can even upload new stuff there. By the way, I also study Early Middle Chinese and a bit of Old Chinese and Proto-Tibeto-Burmese, Cantonese dialects and other southern dialects are really helpful together with the Sino-xenic languages if you study EMC). Thank you! Cicognac (talk) 14:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

槍 or 枪

@RcAlex36 Hello. May I know why you revert this? https://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%9E%AA&hl=ko&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIvM31k4TtAhVdw4sBHfHGD0UQ_AUoAXoECAQQAw&biw=1707&bih=865 Thanks! B2V22BHARAT (talk) 08:43, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@B2V22BHARAT: Hi, it's 兩把槍. Also, I suggest that you refrain from editing Chinese entries if you are not familiar with Chinese. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36 Oh okay. B2V22BHARAT (talk) 11:39, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm sorry for adding comments to articles

I now know that is wrong, and I shall never do it again. Instead, I posted my enquiries here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup#Two_Chinese_words_with_%22uncertain_meaning%22. Oosbam1812 (talk) 15:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh for crying out loud

I'll stop editing about those two pages, but we have to come to some sort of consensus here. It's either 凶 or 兇. I ask you politely to please stop reverting both. Oosbam1812 (talk) 15:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Oosbam1812: Not either 凶 or 兇. It's 凶 in the original text and 兇 would not make sense because it does not have that meaning. They just have the same form under simplification. I think you need to work on your knowledge of classical Chinese. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

If it's neither than what is it?? Oosbam1812 (talk) 15:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Oosbam1812: It's only 凶, not like you can choose freely between the two characters. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:46, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

So I was correct the first time? Why did you revert my edit on 凶, then? Oosbam1812 (talk) 15:47, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

@Oosbam1812: Because it was under an incorrect definition, so it was right for me to revert. RcAlex36 (talk) 15:48, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

差 chà (Taiwan chā)

Hi! I noticed you deleted my insertion of 差 as a translation of "of" as in "a quarter of three" (= the time 2:45).

I actually felt quite awkward about that whole subsection. I notice that people nowadays often just don't use these constructions anymore, probably as an effect of digital clocks, whether it's 差一刻三點 ～　三點差一刻 in Mandarin (which you can still find in textbooks, learners' blogs and dictionaries), or for that matter, "a quarter of/to three" in English. I'm in Canada and I only hear these things from seniors past 60... Mandarin speakers even tell me that 一刻/三刻 themselves are on the way out, and only 三點半 is remaining. I have no idea what the situation is in current Cantonese, or for that matter in the other languages in the subsection. Others may be as obsolete as you feel 差 is. Interestingly, the Spanish constructions (un cuarto para las tres, las tres menos cuarto) continue to be well alive.

Also, that subsection should really be moved to the bottom too, don't you think? Considering even the English usage it shows is uncommon...--Ser be etre shi (talk) 00:12, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@Ser be etre shi: I now think my reversion was a mistake because I didn't know the "of" functions like "moins" in French. I don't think I've actually heard 差一刻三點 in Mandarin Chinese before, but that's perhaps I just don't hear Mandarin often. Even in Mandarin, it seems like you would only use 差 for a quarter. In Cantonese, you would say 三點九 or 三點四十五分 for 3:45. I would probably say 三點四十五分 in Mandarin myself. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Oh, I suppose I wasn't clear. Mandarin speakers do tell me 三點差一刻 is not used anymore, and its presence in learners' resources is an archaism, and same goes for 一刻/三刻 to a good extent. I ascribe this to digital clocks. I'm not putting it back; I think your reversion was good.--Ser be etre shi (talk) 07:46, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

毋愛

I have never encountered a speaker that says it in two syllables, actually. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 02:07, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I just found 莫. It's not good form for me to remove this conversation though. - Fredrick Campbell (talk) 02:09, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Chinese entries of Japanese places names

Did you read my reply here? İʟᴀᴡᴀ–Kᴀᴛᴀᴋᴀ (talk) (edits) 16:38, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

板

Please show me where I "blindly" added that definition, as the article history doesn't seem to support your claim. I haven't edited the 板 article since July 15, 2015. Bumm13 (talk) 19:08, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

@Bumm13: It was in that edit where you moved the definition from translingual to Chinese, but that was a long time ago. RcAlex36, please be a little more careful in how you word things. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:37, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Khalkha

This is not uncountable. "The Khalkha", "some of the Khalkha", "those two Khalkha over there" are all plural. Uncountable is something like "some rice", "some paper", "a little chocolate". Equinox ◑ 06:56, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

@Equinox: Hmm, are language names proper nouns? Korean is listed as a noun. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:00, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, that's how we usually treat them. I see you raised this on Discord and somebody there seemed to agree with me. I know we can talk about "different Englishes" (e.g. Caribbean vs. British) but I think practice has been to call them proper nouns (and we do allow plurals for proper nouns). Feel free to raise it on WT:BP or somewhere as there might be points worth discussing. Equinox ◑ 13:56, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Romanizations

Hey- I found an instance of the use of the word Keelung in US gov documents before the US Civil War. Since the word 基隆 didn't exist until 1875, I think that affects the etymology for the word Keelung. Please check out the new edit I made and let me know what you think if interested. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:30, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: May I have a look at the US gov document? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:13, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Since I posted the last comment, I seemingly conclusively demonstrated the existence of the word 'Keelung' pre-1875. Examples of 'Keelung' from 1857, 1866 and 1873 are shown in the quotations drop-down on the Keelung page. I also found an example of 'Kelung' from 1837.
In my view of a scientific, reliable etymology section, we must not confuse (1) the modern-day translation into Chinese characters of an English language loan word from Chinese characters with (2) the etymology of that loan word- the origin of that loan word. It is evident from these three/four early examples I have found that the word 'Keelung' came from '雞籠' since the word '基隆' is not demonstrated to exist in 1857, 1868 or 1873 and the Wikipedia and Wiktionary pages for '基隆' say that the word '基隆' was created from whole cloth in 1875. Let me know if you have any thoughts on this. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:56, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I just want to tell you that I am absolutely loving this stuff you have been doing. Incredible work! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Hey again. I just want to encourage you again- you have done a critical and important job with the Cantonese-derived (etc) place names in English, and thanks for doing it! Take a look at Hoi Ping & Hoi Peng if you have time. Excellent, excellent work. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:20, 31 March 2021 (UTC)

Hey- I don't know how to use the little "@" thing in the edit notes, so I just wanted to tell you: I noticed a tiny error and I bring it to your attention not because it's important, but so you're more alert to this type of error. [3]- Tongzhou is in Beijing of course. I just wanted to say again that I am still 1000% behind the great work you are doing with the romanizations into English from Chinese characters, despite any very minor disagreements I may have. Also, I am happy when you detect my errors and slip ups- someone actually read what I was doing! Tell me if you see errors! Keep it up overall! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:19, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

typo, should be at 卓爾不群

Thank you for picking up on this. I have fixed the error. Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:05, 14 March 2021 (UTC)

Zhuang on SwiftKey

Hello, I notice that you know some Zhuang, and I just thought I would mention that Microsoft's SwiftKey mobile phone app has released a Zhuang keyboard. (I was somewhat involved in developing it). Please help spread the word to Zhuang speakers. --Tibetologist (talk) 20:40, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Tibetologist: Unfortunately, I know neither Zhuang nor Zhuang speakers. I just work with dictionaries and other scholarly materials. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:51, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

老細

我係從粵文維基辭典過嚟嘅，順便科普下——“老細”呢個詞係個錯誤寫法，正寫係“老世”。個“世”字係從香港日治時期演變出嚟。嗰時日軍成日查人戶口，東主日文嗌「世帶主」，日軍入嚟搜查時，華人翻譯跟住嗌「老世」出嚟而演變成噉。--PQ77wd (talk) 02:14, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

@PQ77wd 我都想科普下，其實「正寫」定唔係「正寫」，同語源嘅關係好複雜，好多字都唔一定要照所謂「本字」嘅寫法。唔知你哋粵文維基辭典嘅規矩啦，但係我哋通常係比較偏向描述主義，所以唔會睇語源睇得咁緊要。何況「老世/老細」一詞嘅語源應該冇 consensus，唔係淨係你講嗰個版本先至啱，而且睇睇台山話嘅讀音，係 /ɬai/，唔係 /sai/，所以「世」都未必啱。既然兩種寫法都有人用，而且「老細」顧及到台山話嘅發音，所以我覺得「老細」適合啲做 main form。 — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:22, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

亦可以參考阿澤寫嘅呢篇文章：「老細」嘅正確寫法係 … — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:47, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung 呢篇文章我睇過。既然係台山話嘅發音，可能要考察下先至得。另外，亦都歡迎你過嚟粵文維基辭典補充啲粵語詞彙。--PQ77wd (talk) 10:26, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Cool Feature for Google Books Citations

Hey RcAlex36- I wanted to point out something that appears on the Kailash page. In this 2018 edit, a user uses something called gbooks to highlight the cited word in a Google Books scanned book. I love that feature- very convenient for the Wiktionary user who wants to find the word. However, gbooks is incompatible (seemingly) with the pageurl parameter of quote-book. Should I bring this up at the grease pit and try to make gbooks compatible with the pageurl parameter? Have you used gbooks before? Let me know if I'm not making any sense. Thanks for your time.

Here's what I mean:

This is the citation as it stands, using gbooks

• 1999, Harish Kapadia, “Ascents in the Panch Chuli Group”, in Across Peaks & Passes in Kumaun Himalaya, New Delhi: Indus Publishing Company, →ISBN, page 136:

  We had our reward for our high camp and early start, for the sky was still clear, the view magnificent, with fresh vistas to the north of mountains in Tibet, of Gurla Mandhata, massive, majestic to the northeast, and further to the north, a distant pyramid, Kailash, most holy of all mountains in both Hindu and Buddhist mythology.

Here is the citation using gbooks and the pageurl parameter

• 1999, Harish Kapadia, “Ascents in the Panch Chuli Group”, in Across Peaks & Passes in Kumaun Himalaya, New Delhi: Indus Publishing Company, →ISBN, [136 page 136]:

  We had our reward for our high camp and early start, for the sky was still clear, the view magnificent, with fresh vistas to the north of mountains in Tibet, of Gurla Mandhata, massive, majestic to the northeast, and further to the north, a distant pyramid, Kailash, most holy of all mountains in both Hindu and Buddhist mythology.

--Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:16, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative Isn't using pageurl redundant if you are using gbooks? RcAlex36 (talk) 15:19, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I guess it would be. I just don't like the idea that the Google Books-derived citations will bluelink only the numbers for the the page and the Internet Archive-derived citations will bluelink both the word 'page' and the numbers for the page. Seems inconsistent. Despite the potential inconsistency, I'm just going to start using gbooks for most or all the Google Books cites, because I think it's just so good. (I may later realize some unexpected problem with gbooks and not do this). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:23, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Middle Chinese and Old Chinese pronunciations

Hi. Just curious, under what circumstances do you think it's necessary to add the MC and/or Old Chinese pronunciations to a Chinese entry? Bula Hailan (talk) 14:19, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

I add MC when the word is used during 魏晉南北朝 and 隋唐 (maybe also 五代), and Old Chinese when the word is used in texts before the end of Western Han. RcAlex36 (talk) 14:24, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

@Bula Hailan: Different linguists suggest different time periods for OC and MC. Under the strictest definition, OC was spoken pre-Qin, while MC was spoken during 南北朝 and 隋唐. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:02, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Cool. Thanks for telling me. Bula Hailan (talk) 08:24, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

Transliteration

Hello, I do not know the Wiktionary convention on transliteration, but the common English transliteration for the Kuching Hakka variety is Hopoh. Wiikipedian (talk) 07:47, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian No, we use Hanyu Pinyin here. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:51, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: Actually, is your dialect equivalent to the Hepo Hakka described in 馬來西亞砂拉越古晉石角區甲港客語詞彙調查與比較研究, i.e. the 方言點 Batu Kawa (Sungai Tapang) we have right now? If yes, @Justinrleung, what should we do about this? RcAlex36 (talk) 07:57, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: The Sungai Tapang variety is a subset of the Kuching (Hopoh) variety. Wiikipedian (talk) 08:02, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: Hi, are you a speaker of Kuching Hakka? I'm wondering if you think there are differences between Sungai Tapang and other parts of Kuching? We generally want to keep smaller divisions if we have good access. If you're adding Kuching, is it different from Sungai Tapang? If not, it makes the modules a little messy. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 08:42, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Hello, yes, I am a speaker of Kuching Hakka. Sungai Tapang is an area in the outskirts of Kuching, and a different variety may be spoken there. Wiikipedian (talk) 08:58, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Wiikipedian: I see. Great to have a speaker here. Then what you're adding would be the city of Kuching? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 09:19, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yes. Wiikipedian (talk) 09:21, 29 May 2021 (UTC)

稽延

Thank you for adding synonyms, but please remember to add the entry at the thesaurus page as well, e.g. at Thesaurus:拖延 11:08, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Cantonese word

Hey, just wondering here, can you make out what she is saying in this video: [4] (3:19)? I can make out 全家 but I can't make out the second half of the phrase. The dog2 (talk) 20:17, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: 扽(dan3)低. 扽 means "a person to fall down with the butt striking the ground first" according to 粵典. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:52, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe you should create then entry for the term then. The dog2 (talk) 04:55, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

And speaking of which, should we include it in the dialectal table for 跌倒? Pinging Justinrleung as well. The dog2 (talk) 05:32, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

No because this isn't any type of falling down. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:33, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

Doesn't 仆親 imply falling forward onto your face? We include it in the table. The dog2 (talk) 05:49, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

@The dog2: 仆 is forward, but 扽 is even more specific, so I don't think it should be included. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:59, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

About etymology of 離

in the article of 離, I found you re-write its etymology as Phonetically borrowed for the sense "to depart". Does it have any evidence? If it in fact has evidence, specifically which hanzi did 離 borrowed its meaning "to depart" from? I'm Japanese, so I searched all sort of place to find this original hanzi but I can't find anything likely and now I'm very suspicious that it ever existed in the first place. TY --Tokiedian SP (talk) 02:19, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Tokiedian SP This is an example of 假借 (jiǎjiè). It did not borrow the meaning "to depart" from any character as 假借 does not involve borrowing senses from other characters. Rather, the character 離, originally intended to write a word related to birds (as evidenced by the 隹), was phonetically borrowed to write a word in Old Chinese that meant "to depart" because the two words shared the same pronunciation. You can compare this with the situation of 萬, another 假借字. It has always been used to write the word for 10,000, and never the word for scorpion (which is written as 蠆), even though 萬 resembles a scorpion. This happens because the word for 10,000 and the word for scorpion shared similar pronunciation in Old Chinese, so the ancient Chinese used a pictogram of a scorpion to represent the word for 10,000.

I've read several sources, and two seem to think that even the "black-naped oriole" sense claimed to be the original meaning of the character in Shuowen Jiezi, now written as 鸝, is a phonetically borrowed sense (假借義). According to 字源 (2012), the oracle bone scripts of 離 consisted of ⿱凶十 and 隹, and was a 會意字 and 形聲字 at the same time (⿱凶十 was also the phonetic component (聲旁) and would later evolve into 离), the meaning of which was related to hunting birds. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:03, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

so you mean Old Chinese has a word phonetically similar to 離, but this word didn't ever have its own hanzi and just kept using 離 as a permanent substitute, do you? It just sounds... ambiguous tbh.

also btw do you know any other words that have related etymology as 離? I'm now studying lores of a particular game, and proper nouns in the game which appears in relatively close context has very sus similar hanzi; specifically 離, 璃, 螭 (If you search those hanzi, you will definitely identify the game I'm talking). I'm almost certain that 螭 probably shared the same etymology with 音符 离 (some legendary animal) but I have no idea what etymology 離, 璃 did have and whether they were related to each other... Tokiedian SP (talk) 03:49, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

@Tokiedian SP Which word "didn't ever have its own hanzi"? The word meaning "to depart" or the word which seems to mean to hunt birds? If you are referring to the former, then that's just how 假借 works. There are numerous examples of 假借 which you can browse at 假借字. If you are referring to the latter, then it's true that there are some 假借字 whose original intended meanings are not attested. An example is 我, which resembles a weapon, but appears to have always been used to write the word meaning "I". Another example is 難, which may be originally intended for a word for some kind of bird. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:02, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

不言自明

When adding a new synonym, please update the thesaurus page. Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:48, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

石頭

I would like to know your source for Penang Hokkien's dialectical synonym of stone as 石頭 as I have not heard of this used for stone in Penang before. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 06:42, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: p. 208 of 馬來西亞檳城福建話研究 (doctoral thesis of 王桂蘭) have bá-tû and 石頭, while Penang Hokkien Dictionary have bá-tû, 石頭 and 石. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:33, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Upon acquiring a copy, I conclude that 石頭 in the document was giving the definition of 峇都(bâ-tu) and not saying that 石頭 is a phrase used by Penang Hokkien. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 08:32, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

A reason why I reached this conclusion is because the pronunciation of 石頭 is not given in the document. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 08:33, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Finally, thank you for the source — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 08:34, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@Fredrick Campbell: 石頭 is also on p. 208 of the document, with the pronunciation tsio11 tʰau13 given. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:49, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: I missed that. Thanks. If this phrase is still in use, I've only heard it once as the hokkien word that isn't loaned from malay, but only when I asked for it. Otherwise, I've not heard it. Then again, stones are rarely talked about. I'll leave it there for now. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 08:53, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Vote

Hello! I just wanted to encourage you, as an uninvolved user, to vote at WT:Votes/2021-08/Nullifying_the_previous_templates_vote. Please vote however you would like - whether in support or in opposition. These votes are a good way to influence governance here on Wiktionary. Imetsia (talk) 14:35, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Why did you revert this

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=%E5%AF%AC&diff=64139822&oldid=64139781 24.246.118.194 17:38, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

牛肉乾

我最近發現，喺馬來西亞嗰邊，啲人唔係嗌“牛肉乾”，而係嗌“沙晚”。--PQ77wd (talk) 07:19, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

@PQ77wd: Do you have a source for that? And please learn to format properly. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:20, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Watch here: https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV11Q4y1i7gm （第58—60秒）--PQ77wd (talk) 07:23, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

⑨

I recently found the sense for Cirno (Touhou Project character) in the entry of ⑨. However, will that sense will pass our requirement in WT:FICTION? It seems that the sense is used chiefly by the fandom community, rather than being used out of context in an attributive sense. Do you think that sense suffices for a WT:RFVCJK request?廣九直通車 (talk) 03:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Eg.: see this Google search result, apart from a few Touhou-related pages (mostly on fan discussion pages), I don't find much independent citations.廣九直通車 (talk) 03:22, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

@廣九直通車: I'm not familiar with this. @Fish bowl could you please take a look? RcAlex36 (talk) 04:13, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

meh —Fish bowl (talk) 04:15, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Etymology of 炮

Etymology

Onomatopoeia. For the semantic relationship, compare maybe English pow Why you fix it? 14.247.41.105 12:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source supporting your claim? Things on Wiktionary have to be sourced. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:28, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Various Hua

I'm thinking of creating the entry 諸華／诸华 (Zhūhuá, “various Huas; the peoples who identified with each other in the Central Plain”). Etymologically it's clear, yet when I tried, with ctext full-text search tool, to find which text contains the earliest and authentic attestation of 諸華, these two passages turned up [5]:

One from Zuozhuan, Duke Xiang, 4th year (468 - 300 BCE):

諸華必叛／诸华必叛  ―  zhūhuá bì pàn  ―  The various flourishing peoples would surely turn [against us]

One from Guoyu, Jinyu 7 (475 - 221 BCE):

而失諸華／而失诸华  ―  ér shī zhūhuá  ―  yet [also] losing [the political allegiance of] the various flourishing peoples

Guoyu Jinyu 8 contains an anachronistic (imho) mention of the Xianbei 鮮卑 [6], a tribe, even if "existing" during the Warring States, who were likely still not yet politically independent from the Hu (胡) tribal confederation, making me doubt the authenticity of 諸華 attestion in Guoyu.

Whenever you'll have time to spare, will you kindly confirm which text's attestation is authentic? Thanks in advance! Erminwin (talk) 04:58, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

@Erminwin: I don't have time to look at it right now, but 楚辭·大招 also has 鮮卑. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:40, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

紆

I saw you added the Min Nan (Hokkien) pronunciation of this character. May I know where you got the pronunciation from? Here's the edit I'm referring to. — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 11:14, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

甘字典查詢. RcAlex36 (talk) 11:17, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you — Fredrick Campbell (talk) 13:54, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

calabash, gourds etc

I think I see the distinction that Chinese makes. Unfortunately, taxonomic names may not support that distinction. I recommend that you use normal English definitions to make the distinction, if possible. Do you know of English vernacular names that correspond to the Chinese distinction? I'll do some research as well. DCDuring (talk) 19:11, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

calabash is currently often used for an unrelated New World plant (Crescentia cujete, in Lamiales) and for other objects. bottle gourd is among the terms used for Lagenaria siceraria (in Cucurbitales), but long melon may better correspond to one of the Chinese terms. Calabash on Wikipedia.Wikipedia has a few other synonyms for L. siceraria. DCDuring (talk) 19:23, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Pictures, from Commons, might help. DCDuring (talk) 19:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@DCDuring: At least according to Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, 瓠瓜/瓠子 has white flowers while 冬瓜 has yellow flowers. Alsoo, the fruit of 瓠瓜/瓠子 is long and slender and cylindrical in shape while the fruit of 冬瓜 has a near-spherical or cylindrical shape. RcAlex36 (talk) 19:37, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@DCDuring: Another dictionary gives the name Lagenaria siceraria var. clavata for 瓠瓜. It blossoms at night. RcAlex36 (talk) 19:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@DCDuring: I guess we can label 瓠瓜 as a variety of Lagenaria siceraria if we are uncertain. RcAlex36 (talk) 19:55, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

One of the names for L. siceraria is white-flower gourd! You might just call it that and omit variety- or form-level names. Subspecies- and even more variety- and form-level names are not very reliable or stable. This is mostly because of hybridization. A similar problem exists for the food species of Allium (onions, garlic, leeks, scallions, etc) and Brassica (broccoli, kale, cabbage, etc). I had thought that the sub-specific names would be definitively assignable to the vernacular names of food plants, but that seems to be wrong for species that have been cultivated for centuries, especially since there has been extensive global commerce in seeds, etc. DCDuring (talk) 21:07, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

@DCDuring: The conventional 葫蘆／葫芦 (húlu, “calabash; bottle gourd”) with its snowman shape also has white flowers, so I wasn't sure if 瓠瓜 is the white-flower gourd. RcAlex36 (talk) 04:41, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

If necessary, use multiple synonyms so a user could try to determine what a speaker/writer intended. Pictures may help. A usage note might be necessary if there is imprecision. Usually a vernacular name focuses on characteristics that are directly accessible to the senses (color, shape, taste etc) or to utility (or disutility) to humans. Taxonomic names have been steadily departing from that to descent, determined through chemistry (proteins, DNA, etc). DCDuring (talk) 14:11, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Tingri

Hey- thanks for your work. I know very little about dzongs and Tibetan government, so I was wondering: is a cite that mentions 'Tingri Dzong' a cite for the same modern town in Tibet? Should I add "formerly a dzong" or something similar to that definition? Take a look at that page if you would- it's an important one because the Mount Everest page links to it. Thanks for any guidance you can give me. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:32, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you and a question

Thanks for improving the entries I created. What should I do if a Mandarin phrase contains an erhua not to the last syllable (eg. 一根繩上的螞蚱／一根绳上的蚂蚱 (yī gēn shéng shàng de màzha))? Kindly answer here and I'll check later. --185.217.119.47 09:15, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

You can follow the example at 玩命 (wánmìng), although in that case it will output a single chunk of pinyin. @Justinrleung, Fish bowl, how can the separation of words in a phrase remain when one uses er= ? RcAlex36 (talk) 09:23, 5 April 2022 (UTC) RcAlex36 (talk) 09:23, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

It's a bug that needs to be fixed. Not sure if @Fish bowl might have a solution. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:16, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, please do not create sum-of-part entries. See Wiktionary:SOP for details. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:34, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

東西南北中／东西南北中 (dōngxīnánběizhōng)

Hey- I actually agree with you philosophically about "center" being outside the four cardinal directions. Should the coordinate terms at 臺中／台中 (Táizhōng) be removed too? Thanks. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:07, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Do you know what 河中 means? RcAlex36 (talk) 18:11, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

I just assumed it meant Transoxiana, but I haven't used or read the term personally. I'm sorry if I'm missing some context here. You're an important editor, and I know I may be a bit of an oddball so please excuse me if I am making a mistake. Keep up the good work. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: 河中 is not a region relative to the Yellow River, while 河東, 河南, 河西 and 河北 are. That's why 河中 is not a coordinate term. RcAlex36 (talk) 18:17, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Oh I see, I just didn't know what "coordinate term" meant. Gotcha. So this section should be removed too? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:19, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

A question to follow up on 異丙酚

Hello! Sorry to bother. I saw that my recent edit was reverted. This is my second time encountering Wikipedia references on an entry (the first being 放物線, which links both Japanese and English articles within the same section), so I applied the edit based on that precedent. After looking at other entries, I see now that this is probably an exception to the rule. Apologies if this caused you any inconvenience. My question: for future reference, should only the language provided in the section header have a Wikipedia link? Thank you. Amadeusine (talk) 06:47, 1 May 2022 (UTC) Amadeusine

@Amadeusine: I don't know how it works for entries of other languages, but I just didn't think it is necessary to have a link to the English wikipedia article for propofol. The entry is 異丙酚 and not propofol. To learn more about propofol one can just click propofol in the definitions section which leads to the English entry. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

That makes sense. I appreciate your response on this, and sorry about the unnecessary edit. Amadeusine (talk) 07:04, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

@Amadeusine: No worries. I may have been a bit harsh in my language in the edit summary. Apologies for that. RcAlex36 (talk) 07:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

正月

According to Guangyun, 正 (glossed as 正朔 "1st month's 1st day"), though included among the píngshēng words, was originally pronounced like 政 (Mandarin zhèng < MC *t͡ɕiᴇŋH < OC *teŋ-s) [7]. Song dynasty's scholar Zhu Xi also states that 正, as in the poem 《正月》 "first month" (in Shijing), was to be pronounced 政 [8]. These prove that 正, meaning 1st month, indeed had an obsolete qùshēng pronunciation. The reason why its pronunciation changed is given by Zhang Shoujie here: [9]

Do you think it safe to create another definition "first (month of the lunar year)" (albeit labelled as obsolete) under 正#Pronunciation_1 (i.e. zhèng)?

Thanks beforehand! Erminwin (talk) 17:17, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

@Erminwin: I'd say no. The major dictionaries don't include that sense under zhèng. I'm also not sure if the 嬴政 explanation is historically accurate. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:35, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: In this 2023 article Sagart proposes that 正月 was the appropriate readable form of *teŋ-ŋʷat, from earlier *tek (> 隻 zhī)-ŋʷat (> 月 yuè). While no evidence for 隻 meaning "one (cardinal number); 1st (ordinal number)" was found so far, if one would, that would refute the 嬴政 explanation. 17:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

華陰 Etymology

Hey, I wanted to see if you could give a quick fix/answer for a problem I'm seeing with the etymology at 華陰. Could you modify the etymology or tell me what the connection is between 陰 and 'north'? I can't make the connection. Is it Wuxing? Is it the position of a shadow? Thanks for anything. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 18:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

• @Geographyinitiative:: To quote Shuowen Jiezi [10], 「陰：闇也。水之南、山之北也。」 rough translation: "Yin: it means darkness; a river's south-bank, a mountain's north-side". According to Yin_and_yang#Toponymy: "In China, as elsewhere in the Northern Hemisphere, sunlight comes predominantly from the south, and thus the south face of a mountain or the north bank of a river will receive more direct sunlight than the opposite side." Hope this helps! Erminwin (talk) 16:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

烏油油

Ugh, good catch! I completely messed that up; I meant to add it as a related term. Facepalm. Spacestationtrustfund (talk) 03:19, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

English Translations of Yili, Han Feizi, & Bai Hu Tong for Module:zh-usex/data

I've found English translations Yili (by John Steele, vol. 1, vol. 2; available at archive.org), Han Feizi (by Wen Kui Liao ( 廖文奎), 1939, available), & Bai Hu Tong (Tjan Tjoe Som (曾祖森), 1949; used to be available but no longer). I'm thinking of adding those to Module:zh-usex/data yet know not how to. Would appreciate advises & help. Thanks in advance! Erminwin (talk) 15:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Erminwin: You can use the codes 'Yili-S' for Yili (translated by Steele), 'Hanfeizi-L' for Hen Feizi (translated by Liao), and 'Baihutong-T' for Baihutong (translated by Tjan). I don't think it is necessary to provide links to the texts in the module. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:35, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for catching my broken edit!

Thanks for catching my broken edit on Module:zh/data/dial-syn/外國人. I was copying out into a text editor to do the find-and-replace and I didn't do it correctly.

I'll try to make the edit again, correctly this time. Let me know if your objections to the edit were further than just the broken whitespace. Thanks! ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 03:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Manishearth: How do you know the words you labelled derogatory are considered derogatory in those locations? RcAlex36 (talk) 03:39, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

They're marked as such in the definition. Should I scale it back and only apply it to Hong Kong where I know it's the case? ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 03:44, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Manishearth: I'm not sure if it can still be considered derogatory in Hong Kong now, and it's best not to assume whether it's derogatory in other locations. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:48, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

The Wiktionary pages for both terms explicitly say they're derogatory.

It's pretty common for derogatory terms to be contextually derogatory. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 03:56, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Manishearth: They could be historically/etymologically derogatory, but it is not necessarily clear to me that they're all derogatory in the modern varieties unless we check all the sources (books or native speakers) again. It would probably be better to be silent on this in the module and let this information be dealt with in the actual entries themselves. Also, there are technically other entries other the those two terms you've labelled that are potentially derogatory, but again, we would have to check the sources to find out. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:53, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

About publicly available, thought recent, English translations of Chinese works for Module:zh-usex/data

To be specific, they are: Sawyer's 1993 translation of the Seven Military Classics, translations of Liezi by Graham (1960, 1990) & Cleary (2009). When coding, should I use the "translated based on [translator's name / translators' names]'s version" or "translation from [title] ([year]), by [translator's name / translators' name]"? Thanks in advance! Erminwin (talk) 03:17, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

@Erminwin: You can perhaps follow the example at Chuci-H. Since Seven Military Classics is actually a collection of seven books, you may wish to add the title of the each book individually to the module if you are going to quote the book. RcAlex36 (talk) 03:47, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

縣志

Could you please explain why you reverted my edit here? ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

@Tooironic: 縣志 is not a historical term as it is still in use today. County annals are still published today. I've put "|county|record" back to the zh-forms box. RcAlex36 (talk) 12:27, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:07, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

那個

Native Shaxi speaker here, 那個 is indeed 伊個 in Shaxi LeCharCanon (talk) 08:51, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@LeCharCanon: Are you from Shaxi, Zhongshan? Both 珠江三角洲方言詞匯對照 and 中山方言志 (p. 264) record 許(hi24)個 for 那個. Can you provide the IPA transcription of 伊個? RcAlex36 (talk) 09:03, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yes, I was born there and speak it everyday, now I am not extremely familiar with IPA but it should be [i kɛ] LeCharCanon (talk) 09:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@LeCharCanon: What is the tone of the first syllable? RcAlex36 (talk) 09:12, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: 24 LeCharCanon (talk) 09:20, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@LeCharCanon: If the first syllable has the tone contour of what a 上聲 character would normally have in this environment, then the first syllable is likely not 伊 which is 陰平. 中山方言志 gives 許個 hi24 kɛ11 after tone sandhi (there is no sandhi in the first syllable), so if you say i24 kɛ11, it is probably just an innovation of hi24 kɛ11. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:22, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: my mistake then and thanks, there are some vocabulary words I'm certain of though so I'll be adding a few of those around. Actually there is one I would like to ask about, which is "都吗打" (tu mɑ tɑ) (how it's commonly written now) for tomatoes introduced by those of us who went overseas (now the dominant name for tomatoes), would that be added in that form? LeCharCanon (talk) 09:30, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@LeCharCanon: 珠江三角洲方言詞匯對照 gives ▢嗎打 tu55 ma55 ta31 (yes a square box). @Justinrleung how should we write it? 都嗎打 does have some ghits. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:36, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

中山方言志 p. 254 records 都妈达 tu55 ba55 tat21 for tomato instead. RcAlex36 (talk) 09:39, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

never heard 都妈达 before, including from older generations or the surrounding towns (Dachong) LeCharCanon (talk) 09:57, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@LeCharCanon: What is 落頭 in IPA? RcAlex36 (talk) 09:59, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: 落 should be like lɔ11 (at least the same tone as 個 or 大 if that helps, I'm not actually very familiar with that stuff lol). This is one I'm 100% certain on LeCharCanon (talk) 10:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@LeCharCanon: Do you or people around you say 下頭? RcAlex36 (talk) 10:15, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Yes, though very rarely, personally I'm not actually sure if there's a difference or why both are used sometimes since as far as I know they are used the same way, I'll ask around later to see if anyone knows LeCharCanon (talk) 10:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

kung po

Is this derived from Cantonese? Thanks for any guidance. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Probably. RcAlex36 (talk) 13:49, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Classifying 順天 as an adjective

I was not the person who classified 順天 as an adjective. That entry was created in 2010 (not by me) and it was initially just classified as an adjective ([11]). I just added the "verb" classification. In retrospect, I should have deleted the mistaken adjective classification (by 順天's creator) (I myself acknowledged that "教育部國語辭典 does not split 順天 into adjective & verb" yet I thought to myself 順天's creator might have also been right that it was also an adjective besides being a verb). Just to clear up. Anyways, sincere thanks for fixing that long-standing mistake which I did not have the courage to fix! Erminwin (talk) 15:51, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Erminwin: Apologies for the confusion. Happy Lunar New Year! RcAlex36 (talk) 15:52, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! And to you also a Happy Lunar New Year! Erminwin (talk) 15:53, 14 February 2024 (UTC)