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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! Ultimateria (talk) 19:28, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Gort MòrEdit

Hi, can you double-check the mutations here? If Scottish Gaelic is like Irish in this respect (and I believe it is), if gort is a feminine noun, the phrase should be a’ Ghort Mhòr with genitive na Gorta Mòr, since feminine adjectives lenite in the nominative singular but not the genitive singular (the opposite to masculine nouns). —Mahāgaja · talk 11:24, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Madainn mhath. The mutation here is incorrect according to Am Faclair Beag; I have rectified this mistake by making a new page, which you can find here Gort Mhòr. Thanks for double checking me. Please feel free to flag the Gort Mòr page for removal.

Please keep in mind that lenition is sort of a tricky subject in Scottish Gaelic because there is a traditional/colloquial difference. Many of my dictionaries disagree on some of the distinctions. However, the time period of the Great Famine, I’m putting the more traditional na Gorta Móire, which is often used in place names and events, as the genitive since I can’t find any Gaelic books which have this phrase or even this topic, but should you come across any, feel free to change if should it be different. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:29, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, thanks! It would have been better to move the page to the correct title so as to preserve the page history, but as I'm an admin I've merged the page histories myself. I'll delete the mistaken title as I doubt it occurs frequently enough to warrant the {{misspelling of}} label. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:47, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Scottish Gaelic aspirationEdit

About this reversion, I'm not a contributor to Scottish Gaelic entries, but I did this search to see that Wiktionary apparently most often transcribes Scottish Gaelic b, d, g in syllable onsets as unaspirated and p, t, k as aspirated (as in w:Scottish phonology and orthography), rather than as voiced and voiceless. It's best not to mix the two conventions because transcriptions are ambiguous between the two conventions when /b(ʲ) d(ʲ) ɡ(ʲ)/ or /p(ʲ)ʰ t(ʲ)ʰ k(ʲ)ʰ/ aren't involved. I noticed that you added some other transcriptions with the voiced–voiceless transcription. They need to be changed to unaspirated–aspirated, unless the convention is to be changed. — Eru·tuon 07:09, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree: Scottish Gaelic distinguishes between unaspirated voiceless stops /p t k/ (spelled b d g) and aspirated voiceless stops (spelled p t c) at the phonemic level. Voiced stops can arise at the beginning of a stressed syllable after a nasal, both across a word boundary (e.g. am bàta [əmˈbaːʰt̪ə]) and within a word (e.g. buntàta [punˈdaːʰt̪ə]). In some dialects, the aspiration distinction remains even when voicing applies, so that am pòg is [əmˈbʰɔːk] (versus am bògas [əmˈbɔːkəs]). In most dialects, though, voicing eliminates the aspiration distinction so that am pòg is [əmˈbɔːk] and am bògas is [əmˈbɔːkəs]Mahāgaja · talk 17:34, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Oidhche mhath, a chàirdean. I’ve been taking IPA transcriptions from the dictionary on learngaelic.scot because that’s got the most reliable set of IPA I’ve seen in my research. Technically speaking, all Gaelic dictionaries and grammars that I have which use IPA, use a kind of shorthand IPA which uses /L/ for /l̪ˠ/ or /ɫ̪/, /N/ for /n̪ˠ/, /Nʲ/ for /ɲ/, /Lʲ/ for /ʎ/, and a few others for ease of use. I bring this up because they also use /b d g/ instead of /p t k/ as well. Other issues include the Wikipedia article for Scottish Gaelic phonology staying that an underlying /tʲ/ as, somehow, being [tʒ], which as far as I know is mechanically impossible. However, the [ʒ] is clear as daylight.

With this all out of the way, I’ve been using the voiced set /b d g/ because it’s clearer than the aspirated distinction, it’s not used in IPA transcriptions by native Gaelic speakers, and, while the underlying representation may be an unvoiced stop, the surface phonology clearly demands a voiced representation more than a voiceless one. That all having been said, if you still find this reasoning to be unsatisfactory, I’ll desist and return to the traditional transcriptions from now on. Let me know. Tapadh leibh, a chàirdean :) ThaesOfereode (talk) 00:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Using the voiced symbols would be fine if this were a Gaelic-only dictionary; then we could define the symbols and explain that we're using /b d ɡ/ to stand for voiceless unaspirated stops and /p t k/ to stand for voiceless aspirated stops. But because Wiktionary is a multilingual dictionary, it's ultimately less confusing to use symbols that are closer to their "pure" IPA values. (Incidentally, this argument is that one that finally persuaded me years ago to use /ɹ/ for the English r-sound even though literally every book on English phonetics and phonology and every IPA-using English dictionary I've ever seen uses /r/.) We already do this, for example, for Navajo, Icelandic, and Mandarin, all of which also use the letters ⟨b d g⟩ to stand for /p t k/ and ⟨p t k⟩ for /pʰ tʰ kʰ/. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Very well. You’ve made an excellent set of points and I capitulate. From now on, I’ll revise the IPA sets I get from my dictionaries and use the aspiration distinction. I appreciate you all having the patience to have a discussion with me so we could find the correct answer. Mòran taing :) ThaesOfereode (talk) 19:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)


Hi, could you double‐check the spelling on this? I notice that the Irish equivalent is written as Páidín, which makes me think that ‘Paidin’ is actually supposed to be written as Pàidìn. —(((Romanophile))) (contributions) 06:07, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Howdy. I can’t find any Gàidhlig souces that use the Pàidìn spelling, but Paidin did appear once in my source search. Outside of your source and the one I found, I don’t see it elsewhere. Let me know if there’s anything more I can do to help. ThaesOfereode (talk) 16:56, 19 August 2020 (UTC)