Wiktionary talk:Entry layout

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Indentation of examplesEdit

Current guidance is to use "#:" to indent examples. This abuses description list markup for a use (indentation) that it is not intended for, and also results in invalid HTML (description list definitions must be preceded by at least one term). It is additionally an accessibility error: see w:MOS:INDENTGAP. We should use something like w:Template:Block indent instead. Hairy Dude (talk) 14:04, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree, but do you have an example of a working alternative? —Rua (mew) 14:12, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Presumably the HTML problem could be addressed by wiki software. We like the definitions in a given PoS section to be numbered consecutively. Wouldn't the block indent template disrupt that? DCDuring (talk) 17:52, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
This would seem to be a WT:GP problem. DCDuring (talk) 17:57, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

proposed additionEdit

Can we insert the little detail that Wiktionary:Entry layout#Quotations in their own different section are level four as per WT:QUOTE#Under a Quotations header? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:26, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

update SynonymsEdit

After the crushing victory in this vote, changes to this page need to be made to the List of headings section. --I learned some phrases (talk) 21:44, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

This page's introductionEdit

Could someone with edit rights to the page (which is protected), correct the following error in the page's introduction?: "what editors think as best" should read "what editors think is best" (as > is), I think. Or it could just say, "what editors consider best". --Rogerhc (talk) 20:00, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

NumeralEdit

It should be clarified "Numeral" is not for all numbers; ordinal numbers like first are classified as adjectives but put in Category:English ordinal numbers by a template. Fractions like seven eighths are nouns, and are added to Category:English fractional numbers by a template. -- Beland (talk) 00:31, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

@Beland: Where would this text go? There is only one brief mention of "numeral" as a header. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:57, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
@Koavf: I was just going to add it to the end of the "Part of speech" section. -- Beland (talk) 23:51, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
@Beland: That makes sense. Since this section is very light on text and explanatory notes, I want to be conservative about adding anything that may seem extraneous. Can you show me a discussion on modifying this text? —Justin (koavf)TCM 00:40, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
@Koavf: Well, when I was doing some work on numbers I was confused about this until the discussion at Wiktionary:Tea room/2019/April#Categories for numbers. -- Beland (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Hypernyms - Hyponyms - Meronyms - Holonyms - TroponymsEdit

While I have an idea what hypernyms and hyponyms denote, I am not sure many people ordinarily know what Meronyms, Holonyms and Troponyms are.

Shouldn't these terms at least be linked to their respective dictionary entries?

This would make it a lot more convenient to find out about the meaning of these headers.

And isn't there any explanation of the recommended usage in the help pages which could be mentioned and linked to from here?

I tried to link these terms to their dictionary entries and add an explanation but the page is locked.

This talk page seems not to receive much traffic lately. In case the page itself has also not been maintained for several month it should maybe be unlocked so other people can help improving it?

best regards, KaiKemmann (talk) 21:57, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

PS: I would find it useful to mention other terms which are similar in spelling in an entry. I. e. it could be noted that complementary is very similar to complimentary. Is there a standard procedure to do this and should this maybe be explained on this page?

The main documentation is WT:Semantic relations (linked from WT:EL). The templates could link to the glossary, like so: "Meronyms: foo, bar, baz". The template help pages already provide examples, is that not sufficient? – Jberkel 22:11, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Perfect, thank you. "WT:Semantic relations" is exactly what I was looking for.
I did not notice the referral because - when I came across the section "List of headings" - I thought I had already found what I was looking for. I did not expect to find details about the headings (including this link) further down in the section "Contents" and hence never got that far ..
So maybe adding "See below for details" in the "List of headings" (as well as an internal link) would be a good idea.
Also neither WT:Semantic relations nor WT:EL seem to refer to the respective glossary entries OR to the Wiktionary entries OR to the "template help pages" that you mention.
I feel that the help pages do not make full or even sufficient use of the powerful tool of linking terms to lemmas, articles, glossary entries or whatever is available and appropriate to help readers and users understand the context as well as the details ..
I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by saying: "The templates could link to the glossary, like so: "Meronyms: foo, bar, baz". The template help pages already provide examples, is that not sufficient?"
thanks again for you help,
KaiKemmann (talk) 00:58, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
I was referring to the {{meronyms}}, {{synonyms}} etc. templates, which could generate a link to the glossary (just before the list of referents). About template help pages: on {{meronyms}} there's an example at the top: {{meronyms|en|index finger|middle finger|palm|pinky|ring finger|thumb}}, all meronyms of hand. – Jberkel 10:34, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@KaiKemmann To address your question about complementary and complimentary: in that particular case, each lists the other as a homophone (in a "Pronunciation" section). More generally, though, I've seen this handled with an {{also}} tag at the top of the entry and (in other cases) with an item in a "See also" section. There are probably other ways I don't recall at the moment. Someone more familiar with the conventions here should comment on this. - dcljr (talk) 23:29, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

AbbreviationsEdit

Minor quibble: The "Abbreviations" section says, "For abbreviations, acronyms and initialisms (such as PC and SNAFU)…". It would probably be better to say, "…(such as SNAFU and PC)…", since SNAFU is an acronym and PC is an initialism (i.e., the examples are in the opposite order of the list of terms). Perhaps for completeness we should also give an example of an abbreviation that is neither an acronym nor an initialism (e.g., apt.)? - dcljr (talk) 23:12, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

PING… This is still an issue 3 months later, so here's some text you can just paste into the right place:
Please replace: For abbreviations, acronyms and initialisms (such as {{m|en|PC}} and {{m|en|SNAFU}})
With: For abbreviations, acronyms and initialisms (such as {{m|en|apt.}}, {{m|en|SNAFU}} and {{m|en|PC}})
In the "Abbreviations" section. - dcljr (talk) 23:20, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
So, this really doesn't bother anyone else (who can edit the page, enough to edit the page)? - dcljr (talk) 01:39, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

"lb"Edit

Just wondering, does it stand for something? (I assume the "l" is for language.) Thanks in advance. --Philologia Sæculārēs (talk) 00:51, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

In case you didn't notice, the name of the template as shown in the "Context labels" section is a clickable link, which takes you to the template's documentation, which reveals that the full name of the template is {{label}}. So "lb" is an abbreviation of "label". (I didn't know, either. :) - dcljr (talk) 01:07, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
Thanks Dcljr! --Philologia Sæculārēs (talk) 06:58, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Need to document ALL heading levels, including «See also» (and it needs further «Don't use» text)Edit

I just made a mistake when changing ===See also=== in fall off the wagon to the more specific ===Related terms===. I should've changed it to a fourth-level heading: ====Related terms====. I made this mistake in part because WT:EL doesn't specify what level «See also» goes at; WT:EL#See also doesn't say anything about it; it doesn't appear in WT:EL#List of headings (for good reason, I guess, since it most entries shouldn't include it); and though its placement order is defined in WT:EL#Headings after the definitions, that section gives no guidance on heading levels.

I think there should be a master list of all possible headings, giving both their order and levels (using the wiki markup «=»s is the most handy for this). It really isn't necessary to punt with «Nesting is a key principle to the organization of Wiktionary, but the concept suffers from being difficult to describe with verbal economy. If you have problems with this, examine existing entries, or ask questions of a more senior person.». A master heading list would be easy to construct, and very useful.

That, and/or each heading section (e.g. WT:EL#See also) needs to specify its expected level, and ideally, WT:EL#Headings before the definitions and WT:EL#Headings after the definitions should also document the correct nesting, either via the «=» markup, or via indentation.

And one final note is that the documentation of WT:EL#See also should be modified to say that not only should it not be used for external links, but it also should not be used to link to other entries when a more specific heading exists for that purpose, such as ====Antonyms==== or ====Related terms====. --Dan Harkless (talk) 22:01, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

Mutation header in unconventional locationEdit

@Mahagaja, Rua I've noticed that currently on WT:EL, the mutation header is located between the inflection table and the derived terms, descendants, -nyms, etc. But usually on Celtic language entries it in practice usually goes where "See also" is. Should EL be amended to move "Mutation" between "See also" and "Further reading"? mellohi! (僕の乖離) 21:24, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Given that it's normally a level 3 heading, it should appear after any headings that are specific to a single part of speech. "See also" and "Further reading" are both level 4 headings in the entries I create, and in particular I place "See also" below "Related terms". —Rua (mew) 21:26, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Rua's first sentence above, but in my entries, "See also" and "Further reading" are usually level 3 headings, so I tend to put "Mutations" before them, as the first of the post-POS level 3 headings. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:13, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
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