Talk:ਕਤੇਬ

Old Punjabi

@Taimoorahmed11 This is probably the first Old Punjabi entry. The Early New Indo-Aryan languages at AP:Early New Indo-Aryan Swadesh lists are treated as full languages. At WT:Beer_parlour/2020/September#Northwestern_Indo-Aryan I wrote:

There is no information regarding the transition from MIA to Early NIA for the Northwest Zone. The earliest data for Northwest NIA are two short fragments of the Adi Granth termed ‘Old Punjabi’ that have been analysed by Christopher Shackle. Although the attestation is fragmentary, comparing Old Punjabi with Modern Punjabi and Sindhi helps with diachronic analysis […] Old Punjabi pa-old is an etymology-only language.

Even if the Punjabi editing community does not want Old Punjabi to be full-fledged language, should there at least be a category or a T:label to separate Old Punjabi from modern Punjabi? And, would it be helpful to have a reference template for Old Punjabi entries? Kutchkutch (talk) 09:49, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch I think there definitely should be a distinction between Modern Punjabi and Old Punjabi. You may have seen, I tried to differentiate them but Old Punjabi, evidently, didn't exist. I, too, discovered this word in Christopher Shackle's study on Persian loans in the Adi Granth, but I wasn't sure whether it was used in Modern Punjabi or not, as I had never heard of it myself nor could I find it in any dictionaries aside from those related to the Adi Granth, which are full of Old Punjabi words, hence it's probably a good idea to also create a separate reference for Old Punjabi lemmas.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 11:12, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11: I added Old Punjabi to MOD:labels/data/subvarieties and created Category:Old Punjabi & T:R:inc-opa:Glossary. T:R:inc-opa:Glossary has around 6000 terms, and about 350 of those terms are not from the Adi Granth.

Nouns are given in the commonest form of the singular direct case, and adjectives in the masculine singular direct.

The infinitive is not the citation form of verbs in Template:R:inc-opa:Glossary:

Verbs are given in the absolutive (normally ending in -i). This has the advantage over the infinitive, the normal citation-form in the modem languages, of being more frequent in occurrence and standard in form. It is also alphabetically closer to the stem-form, which cannot itself be used as the citation-form without violating one of the most characteristic features of the Gurmukhi script, the lack of distinction between simple consonants and consonants + -a.

If "Approaches to the Persian Loans in the "Ādi Granth" is used more often, a reference template should be made for that as well. I don't intend to give Shahmukhi spellings for Old Punjabi because I only see Gurmukhi. Regarding this term, should Punjabi ਕਿਤਾਬ (kitāb) / کِتاب (kitāb) be considered as a descendant of just like Old Hindi कतेब (kateba) → Hindustani کِتَاب‎ (kitāb) / किताब (kitāb)? Kutchkutch (talk) 09:40, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch Sorry for the late reply! I had missed your ping it seems. Thanks for the additions. I agree with the Shahmukhi spellings too, as I have yet to see any old Shahmukhi Punjabi references. Regarding the terms, I'm not sure whether they should be regarded as the descendants or not. Etymologies aren't my best area so I'll leave it up to you whether ਕਿਤਾਬ should be considered a descendant of ਕਤੇਬ, they should definitely be mentioned though.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 02:54, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11: I didn't receive a ping for your response either, so perhaps pings are not working at this time. Thanks your continued interest. At WT:Beer_parlour/2020/September#Northwestern_Indo-Aryan I also wrote:

Fariduddin Ganjshakar (1173 - 1266) was one of the first Punjabi writers. Fariduddin Ganjshakar wrote in the Shahmukhi script. Perhaps the name Shahmukhi is only used to distinguish it from Gurmukhi. Fariduddin's literature was included in the Adi Granth. The excerpt interestingly claims that there was some contact between the writers of Old Punjabi and Old Marathi.

Since Fariduddin Ganjshakar

wrote in the Shahmukhi script (and his work is available at http://apnaorg.com/poetry/farid/fdfront.html)

Fariduddin's literature was included in the Adi Granth,

it seems Old Punjabi can be written in Shahmukhi, but I still won't be adding Shahmukhi.

Regarding The excerpt interestingly claims that there was some contact between the writers of Old Punjabi and Old Marathi, the excerpt at https://www.academia.edu/34906743/The_dialectology_of_Indic is:

Guru Nanak composed the foundational texts of Sikhism in his native Panjabi, influenced by previous Sufi and Bhakti poets who composed in Persian, Hindustani, and Marathi

The influence from Persian and Old Hindi is expected. However, if there is influence from Old Marathi that would be surprising. Old Hindi was probably also written in the Perso-Arabic script.

What I've noticed with Old Marathi is that many of the Sanskrit borrowings don't match the Sanskrit spelling, but the modern Marathi spelling is closer to the Sanskrit spelling possibly due to continued contact with Sanskrit. So perhaps the spelling of and Old Hindi कतेब (kateba) later became closer to the Persian and Arabic forms with continued contact.

Is Punjabi کَتیب (katēb) really the plural of Punjabi کِتاب (kitāb), or is that reflective of You may have seen, I tried to differentiate them? The Arabic broken plural appears to be Arabic كُتُب (kutub), and the Persian plural borrowing appears to be Persian کتب (kotob).

There will need to be a way to show both modern and Old Punjabi in the same entry when the Gurmukhi spelling is exactly the same such as for ਜਵਾਈ (javāī), which is also in Old Punjabi. Kutchkutch (talk) 12:20, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch Thank you. I had read somewhere that apparently Shahmukhi predates Gurmukhi, but I had never actually been able to find any text or references in Old Shahmukhi Punjabi, so I'll definetly be reading those references and the website. It might then be worth adding Shahmukhi for Old Punjabi, but it suffice without it for now. In regards to differentiating Modern Punjabi and Old Punjabi, I think there might be a way, since Shahmukhi spellenings have changed somewhat, for instance ݨ instead of نڑ, but again that can be discussed later on.

Also Punjabi کَتیب (katēb), according to Srigranth.org, a Gurmukhi dictionary for Sri Granth Sahib, references the SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary that it is actually a plural of کتاب.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 16:28, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch Hi, I've been going through some of the works of the Old Punjabi Poets in the Shahmukhi script, and will be adding some of the words to wiktionary since they also come with the definitions, is that okay? Also should Old Punjabi not be an ancestor of Punjabi like it is for Hindi and Old Hindi?
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 15:01, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 If you're able to add Old Punjabi terms in Shahmukhi, then go for it. I've made Category:Old Punjabi language a full-fledged language with the code inc-opa, so Old Punjabi is now an ancestor of Punjabi. I also created Template:R:inc-opa:SGGS. Kutchkutch (talk) 10:30, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch Do you have a physical copy of Shackle's Old Punjabi dictionary or is this a digital version? I have not been able to find a digital one, curious if you have one. —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 19:58, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

@AryamanA I found a digital version at

https://sikhbookclub.com/Book/A-Guru-Nanak-Glossary-2ND-Edition

Once you look through it, is Category:Old Punjabi language fine, or would you suggest any changes? Should the etymology-only code pa-old be deleted? A second glossary titled

The Non-Sanskritic Vocabulary of the Later Sikh Gurūs

starts on page 277. Only the transliteration/transcription is provided for the the terms in the second glossary. Kutchkutch (talk) 11:11, 8 April 2021 (UTC)