Talk:Möller
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Says it is English. I think it is German. How to we supply evidence for this sort of thing? SemperBlotto 17:40, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's probably both English and German. My guess is that in English the more common form would be Moller, with Möller being an alternative form, both being derived from the original German. Not that I have any evidence for that... --Yair rand 20:06, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- Doesn't this mean miller? --Rising Sun talk? 20:54, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
To answer the question: I think that surnames of English speaking people living in English-speaking regions should be included as English (the same applying to all other languages). The foreign origin should be explained in the Etymology section. This is a minimum. But it also makes sense to mention in English sections all surnames found in English texts, even when they are not Ehglish surnames, in order to provide their pronunciation in English, as well as other transcriptions also used in English (when applicable), etc. This is the current practice, e.g. Putin is defined, in an English section, as a Russian surname, and Poutine is definec in a French section. It's less useful when the same script is used, but it's useful nonetheless, at least for pronunciation. Lmaltier 18:13, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- Isn't that latter case (of a name not used by an anglophone in an anglophone country) just a transliteration into English? How is it different from epōnumos (properly redlinked transliteration of Ancient Greek ἐπώνυμος? We don't want to include how Americans mispronounce that, do we? So why include how we mispronounce Putin? See also talk:Venizelos and citations:Venizelos.—msh210℠ 18:23, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- The difference is that epōnumos is not used in English texts, it would make no sense to include it in an English section. The English pronunciation of Putin to be included is not a mispronunciation, it's the correct pronunciation in English, and mentioning it is of help to readers. Lmaltier 19:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- Putin is a transliteration, so it can just as well be called English. English pronunciations of Goethe or Beethoven are justified, because those names are used attributively. But a simple German surname like Möller? A polite person should at least try to pronounce it as in German. We cannot add English mispronunciations to every single non-English name. (And surely you don't want to hear how Finns mispronounce foreign names?) Yair rand should give evidence that native English speakers keep those two dots in the Anglo-Saxon world. Immigrant Möllers don't count - their name is German, no matter where they live. --Makaokalani 16:16, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I was mainly thinking to the pronunciation used for people named Möller living in English-speaking countries. It's not a mispronunciation, it's the normal pronunciation, it's how they pronounce it, even if it's not the same as the etymological one. And the same applies to all languages. Lmaltier 18:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Putin is a transliteration, so it can just as well be called English. English pronunciations of Goethe or Beethoven are justified, because those names are used attributively. But a simple German surname like Möller? A polite person should at least try to pronounce it as in German. We cannot add English mispronunciations to every single non-English name. (And surely you don't want to hear how Finns mispronounce foreign names?) Yair rand should give evidence that native English speakers keep those two dots in the Anglo-Saxon world. Immigrant Möllers don't count - their name is German, no matter where they live. --Makaokalani 16:16, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- The difference is that epōnumos is not used in English texts, it would make no sense to include it in an English section. The English pronunciation of Putin to be included is not a mispronunciation, it's the correct pronunciation in English, and mentioning it is of help to readers. Lmaltier 19:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- A name is English if it is used in English context. Möller has been used in English context, therefore it is English. If pronunciation in English is different, but the original is sometimes used in English context, the entry should include both. (Although this is somewhat unrelated, you may notice that both /ˈpæ.ɹɪs/ and /pɑˈri/ are included in Paris.) --Yair rand 06:10, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Where is the English pronunciation? And the translation table is empty. "It might be called an English surname, and it might have an English pronunciation" is not the way to verify an entry.--Makaokalani 13:35, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
RFV failed, English section removed: no citations have been provided. —RuakhTALK 19:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)