Talk:farmer's daughter

RFD discussion: July 2022

The following information passed a request for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Citations:farmer's daughter

Request for undeletion. It's not sum of parts. See Wikipedia: farmer's daughter. Also, the quote that was present was clearly not using farmer's daughters to literally refer to the female offspring of an agriculturalist. 98.170.164.88 02:07, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Some more examples of idiomatic use: [1], [2]. 98.170.164.88 02:23, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I remember seeing a store or restaurant called the Farmer's Daughter and my dad complained in the car that it was obscene. I didnt understand at all what he meant but I agree this is definitely not a sum-of-parts phrase. —Soap— 10:59, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Agreed - let’s undelete please. Theknightwho (talk) 11:39, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Indeed, judging by the Wikipedia article I agree this is a valid idiom. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 11:44, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

• Undelete Purplebackpack89 11:49, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I undeleted the citations page, feel free to fill it up with non-SOP evidence. The one quote on there is probably just SOP. - TheDaveRoss 12:49, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

It means the daughter of a farmer, whatever the sociocultural implications might be, so delete. However, some might consider it to be an "absent-minded professor" case. Equinox ◑ 23:34, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

@Equinox: It is one of the well-established set library of stock characters identified in fiction, much like the damsel in distress (which undoubtedly would be SOP if it were not such a stock character), or the magical Negro (same). bd2412 T 18:10, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

This can go too far though. I can find many instances of "hated mother-in-law" in GBooks. Equinox ◑ 21:36, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure it can, but this is not an instance of it. "Farmer's" is not analogous to "hated" in terms of defining a subject as a stock character. bd2412 T 03:26, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

The difference is that hated mother-in-law simply describes a trope, but isn't a set phrase on its own. Binarystep (talk) 04:12, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@BD2412: What Wiktionary policy dictates that we should include a "well-established set library of stock characters identified in fiction"? Bearing in mind that farmer's daughter does, as I stated, mean the literal daughter of a farmer, regardless of the literary context. I hope we are not TVTropes. Equinox ◑ 02:21, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I would disagree with that definition. The farmer's daughter stock character, per List of stock characters, is "a desirable, wholesome, and naive young woman". Stock characters generally are not literal uses of the term, but are well-recognized as phrases delineating specific characteristics. They are dictionary material to the extent that the phrase non-literally identifies the character type; comparable examples include bad boy (defined by their attractiveness to women), cat lady (defined by their perceived eccentricity), or valley girl (defined by their superficiality). bd2412 T 02:49, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

My next step would be to demand CFI-worthy evidence of a "farmer's daughter" who wasn't the daughter of a farmer, but ehh, there are worse entries around here. I think I'll leave it alone now. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Equinox ◑ 05:42, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we would require that they not be the daughter of a farmer, just that the phrase is used to imply characteristics beyond those. Obviously a "bad boy" is partially identified by being male and bad, and an absent-minded professor is partially identified by being a professor, and absent-minded, but the phrases mean more than just that. I think this is the same as the way that sense one of green light will necessarily be a light that is green, but imports the additional information of signalling traffic. bd2412 T 05:47, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Yeah this is the whole nature of the disagreement really: I'm not denying that an absent-minded professor (AP) is a P who is A. On the contrary, because he is a P who is A, he's the kind of thing we should usually discard by the "brown leaf" rule. What you are saying (to me) is "we can override SoP rules if the phrase is a common collocation in pop culture", which I think is stupid, but is a battle I will probably lose. "Green light" is not comparable IMHO because the figurative green light (the "go-ahead") isn't green and isn't even a light! whereas the farmer's daughter is everything you'd expect from the words. Equinox ◑ 05:52, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Sense one of green light is "A traffic light in its green state (indicating that vehicles may proceed)". Literally a light that is green (but not any light that is green). bd2412 T 07:02, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

@Equinox That logic doesn’t follow. Not all daughters of farmers are the stock character of a farmer's daughter. Most aren’t, in fact. Theknightwho (talk) 14:02, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: Although that's true, it's moot, because I could say "not all apprentices of wizards are the stock character of a wizard's apprentice". According to whom? Anyway, I'll let it go. I just want to register my discontent, which will be archived on the talk page, lol. Equinox ◑ 04:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Undelete. Binarystep (talk) 23:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

• Undelete per nom. bd2412 T 21:34, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

I undeleted this a while ago, it is a citations page and not an entry, so CFI is mostly irrelevant. If an entry to be made and no evidence beyond the current two cites were provided I would vote to delete that. - TheDaveRoss 12:40, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

plural

wouldnt the plural be farmer's daughters, since this is an indivisible noun? —Soap— 04:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

@Soap: Not unless every farmer's daughter is of the same farmer, which seems improbable. Ioaxxere (talk) 04:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

but its not meant literally. (if it were it would have been called SOP.) It means a woman who (stereotypically) lives on a farm or in a rural area and is "easy" because she hasnt been off the farm in years and thus has no other opportunity to meet men. And it does not have to be someone who lives on a farm, either. It's a stereotype, not meant literally. And thus it's [farmer's daughter] as an atomic whole, not [farmer]'s [daughter] as if meant literally. Both of our quotes use the spelling I linked to. What is the plural of cat's eye? i think that's an even better example, since there is no cat involved even metaphorically in most of the senses we give. we currently dont list cat's eyes but i think we should. best wishes, —Soap— 05:13, 19 April 2024 (UTC)