Talk:great-nephew

one’s son’s or daughter's nephew

one’s son’s or daughter's nephew is also one's grandson (from the view of the parents of the son or daughter). Anyway what does OED mean with this definition? The focus is on the relationship between an offspring and their sibling's male child as viewed by the parent(s)?

I don’t have access to the OED, so I can’t say. If it actually states that a great-nephew is "one's child's sibling's male child", then it’s a typo of some sort. One’s child’s sibling is also one’s child. I am my parents’ son and all three of my siblings are also my parents’ sons. My son is my parents’ grandson, and the sons of each of my siblings are likewise my parents’ grandsons. None of my or my siblings’ (my brothers’) sons can possibly be my parents’ great-nephews. —Stephen 20:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Under great entry #21, OED has the following:

21. Prefixed to certain terms denoting kinship (viz. uncle, aunt, nephew, niece, and the compounds of grand-), to form designations for persons one degree further removed in ascending or descending relationship. The prefix may be repeated any required number of times to express progressively more and more remote degrees of relationship. Nonce-uses of the prefix are great-cousin, -father, -sire (see below), and perh. great kinsman (Shakes. Rom. & Jul. IV. iii. 53, where however the adj. may have sense 12). [After F. grand (see GRAND A. 12b), which follows the example of Latin avunculus magnus great-uncle, amita magna great-aunt.] a. great-uncle, -aunt, a father's or mother's uncle, aunt; great-nephew, -niece, a son's or daughter's nephew, niece; great-cousin (nonce-wd.), a first cousin once removed; great father, sire, (nonce-wds.), a grandfather.

I understand that a son's or daughter's nephew is the same as a grand-son. So maybe OED's wrong (and meant to write a sibling's son's or daughter's nephew). I dont know (I mean, it seems obviously wrong, but maybe I just dont know about usual usage). Bilagáana 08:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps I’m missing it, but I don’t see "one's child's sibling's male child" anywhere in your cite. One’s child’s male child is one’s grandson; and one's child's sibling's male child is also one’s grandson, since all of your children’s siblings are also your children.

Besides the obvious reason (that this definition is completely wrong), the other reason I deleted the definitions that you added is that they are horrendously confusing, as this one proves. It’s ridiculous to use phrases such as one’s child’s sibling, when one’s child means exactly the same thing and is much easier to process mentally. You didn’t add any new definitions or clarifications to this or the other relations, you only restated the existing definitions in an exceedingly confusing way (and added some bad ones along the way, such as this one). —Stephen 08:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

If OED says that your great-nephew is your son's nephew ("great-nephew, -niece, a son's or daughter's nephew, niece"), then that is equivalent to your son's sibling's son and also to your grandson. Right? I added it because it was in OED.

Whether it's confusing, perhaps depends on your cultural background. Comparative research on different kinship term systems may be hard to process mentally no matter how it's stated. Bilagáana 00:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it’s not equivalent at all. The fact that it confuses you so thoroughly is proof that it is poorly constructed. Let me try to explain it again. You said that your great-nephew is your son’s sibling’s son. Are you able to see that your son’s sibling is also your son or daughter? Try to think of it this way: you probably have a brother or sister of your own. You know that your children are the grandchildren of your parents. You should also realize that your brother’s children are the grandchildren of your parents, since your parents are also his parents. Your brother is your sibling. Your father CANNOT say that his son’s (meaning you) sibling’s (meaning your brother) son is his great-nephew, because all of the children of all of his children are his grandchildren, and they are not his great-nephews.

The only reason to ever use the word "sibling" is when you cannot or do not wish to specify gender. It is beyond silly to speak of "male sibling" or "female sibling". By the same token, you should use "child" in place of "son" or "daughter" only when you cannot or do not wish to specify gender. If you stop messing with "male sibling", "female sibling", "male child", and "female child", and use good English terms such as "brother", "sister", "son", and "daughter", you will find this business much less confusing.

Your great-nephew is NOT "your son’s brother’s son" (i.e., your son’s nephew), but rather it’s YOUR nephew’s son. Your great-nephew is the grandson of YOUR brother or sister. It has NOTHING to do with your children’s siblings, because all of your children’s siblings are your children, and all of their children are your grandchildren. All of your children’s nephews are your grandchildren ... your great-nephew is your son’s first cousin once removed. Your great-grandnephew is your sons first cousin twice removed. Your great-nephew is no sort of mephew to any of your children, but rather a sort of cousin to them.

As to cultural background and confusing English style, that’s simply rubbish. It depends entirely on the language that you speak. It is not good English to say things like "male sibling" or "male child", and the use of this mechanical style is what keeps you yourself from being able to comprehend what you keep saying. English kinship terms are very easy to understand and process mentally IF, and ONLY if, they are expressed in good English language and style. —Stephen 01:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

My point is that OED states that a great-nephew is a son's or daughter's nephew. If a nephew is a sibling's son, then a great-nephew would be a son's sibling's son or a daughter's sibling's son. If this is wrong, then the error is with OED.

(It may be advantageous to describe a sister relationship as a female sibling if you are comparing this to a term in another language that refers to a same-sex sibling. You can then point out that if you are female then the term refers to your female sibling and if you are male, the term refers to your male sibling. Additionally, if you are looking at a kinship chart, you can match the triangle or circle of the sibling to the triangle or circle of the ego. Although I am not interesting in this point here, it still may be the case that if a reader is not a native English speaker with a very different kinship system, then a definition in good English style may not be easiest for that reader to comprehend. I am, of course, speculating here.) Bilagáana 01:42, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, that’s it then. If the OED says that "a great-nephew is a son's or daughter's nephew", it is absolutely in error. All the nephews of all of your children are your grandchildren. If the OED used better English, this fact would have been immediately obvious not only to you, but also to them, and then they wouldn’t have said it. I don’t have that dictionary, so this is all hearsay from my point of view, and I can’t say who made the mistake. I only know that it is 100% wrong. A great-nephew is not one’s children’s child; a great-nephew of one’s siblings grandchild. You have to move horizontally first (sibling), and then vertically (grandson). Your first move cannot be vertical (your children).

It is never advantageous to describe a sister in English using a foreign system. You never superimpose a foreign system over English, just as it is a mistake to superimpose English on a foreign system. When I speak German, I have to speak it and hear it correctly in terms of German. If someone tries to "help" by anglicizing the German, it becomes gibberish to me. Many languages do not show gender for relations such as brother and sister, and many languages that do show gender use the same word for both, but with a masculine or feminine ending. Arabic, for example, says in effect, sibling and siblingette. Many cultures have strong divisions based on age differences, and they are problematic for English speakers. But you always need to speak the best German when speaking German, and not try to anglicize. The same goes for every other language. In English, it is NEVER female sibling, it’s sister. Using that sort of non-English nonsense is the root of this entire misunderstanding, and it’s senseless.

Russian has a much more logical system than English, and much easier to follow, but if I try to describe English relationships using Russian logic, not only would you be completely lost, but any English-speaking Russian would be lost as well. Things English should be described in the best English, and things Russian should be described in the best Russian, and any sort of cross contamination is what’s known as interference, and linguistic interferences always throws a wrench into the works. Each language is best suited to describing its own culture, and it must be done right to be of any use to anybody. —Stephen 04:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

This article is in error. Needs slashing and burning.

A great nephew is the grandson of one's sibling. Sister Becky's grandson Zander is my great-nephew and I am his great-uncle. This is English, which follows an Eskimo system (Berlin et al).

All the articles on relationships need slashing and burning. --Allamakee Democrat 10:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• one’s son’s or daughter's nephew is gibberish; it is absolutely wrong. The nephew of my son is either my grandson or step-grandson, and short of incest, never my great nephew. If this is what OED says, then OED is in error (and maybe we have a copyvio), but I don't think so. --Allamakee Democrat 04:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)