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User talk:Wyang

Probably less active ― in Hồ Chí Minh City till early Feb. (Hit me up if you are nearby)

Wyang (talk) 01:24, 1 December 2017 (UTC)


  • Archive 1 — 2013/01/18 21:12 (UTC) to 2014/05/24 00:43 (UTC)
  • Archive 2 — 2014/05/25 15:03 (UTC) to 2015/01/25 11:17 (UTC)
  • Archive 3 — 2015/01/23 00:31 (UTC) to 2015/07/10 05:42 (UTC)
  • Archive 4 — 2015/08/15 18:18 (UTC) to 2016/07/18 01:13 (UTC)
  • Archive 5 — 2016/07/18 18:16 (UTC) to 2017/01/13 10:16 (UTC)
  • Archive 6 — 2017/01/16 04:17 (UTC) to 2017/06/27 06:38 (UTC)
  • Archive 7 — 2017/06/25 09:08 (UTC) to

User talkEdit

Category:Tbot entries (Vietnamese)Edit

Hey. Can you try to clean up these dozen entries? --Lirafafrod (talk) 14:15, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

Wyang is certainly very knowledgable and has access to good reference materials, but @Fumiko Take is a native speaker- have you asked them? Chuck Entz (talk) 02:44, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I don't think that's necessary. Wyang has been on a Vietnamese push lately (for obvious reasons), and now the category is almost cleaned out. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:04, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
I cleaned up a couple of the Tbot entries, and now Fumiko has kindly nominated the remaining entry for RFV, so the category should be empty soon. Wyang (talk) 14:44, 5 December 2017 (UTC)


The first gloss are displayed as "; honestly!".--2001:DA8:201:3512:BCE6:D095:55F1:36DE 16:50, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

  Done Wyang (talk) 14:42, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

LTC pronunciationsEdit

I got a bee in my bonnet about looking again at the 甲乙 / Type-A vs. Type-B / subscript-1 vs. subscript-2 distinction that appears in OJP, and vanishes later. I was looking at the LTC readings of the characters used as w:man'yōgana, and things line up pretty well mostly, suggesting that 甲 vowels were more fronted or palatalized, and 乙 vowels further back or labialized.

However, I ran across this line over at w:Old Japanese#Phonology:

There is no consensus on the pronunciation of the syllables distinguished by man'yōgana. One difficulty is that the Middle Chinese pronunciations of the characters used are also disputed, and since their reconstruction is partly based on Sino-Japanese pronunciations, there is a danger of circular reasoning.

This is the first I've heard of this, about LTC reconstructions relying on Japanese. The source for that was given as a 2003 book by Marc Hideo Miyake, Old Japanese: A Phonetic Reconstruction (ISBN 0-415-30575-6), which confuses me -- would an English-language author writing on Japanese have up-to-date knowledge about LTC reconstructions? I am uncertain.

Do you have any insight? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:42, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

@Eirikr I had a read of Miyake's discussion on the reconstruction circularity (pp. 54 in his book). It is actually a secondary quote of Pulleyblank (1984):

Unfortunately, Tôdô’s work was marred by circularity: his MC reconstruction was partly based on his OJ reconstruction and vice versa. Miller (1967: 179) writes of Tôdô’s (1957) attempt at OJ reconstruction:

Assuming the “fact” that Old Japanese had an eight-vowel system and the “fact” that these eight vowels of Old Japanese are sufficiently well known to be described in terms of acoustic phonetics, he then takes these as his point of departure, following the phonetic values now commonly held by most modern Japanese scholars for the eight vowels. With this data he enters the Chinese rhyme-tables; and when he again emerges many pages later he is able to say, in effect, that the Middle Chinese materials show that these vowels not only existed in Japanese but were of the following phonetic shapes, etc., etc. – which unfortunately is the point from which his discussion originally began.
Decades later, Pulleyblank (1984: 156) pointed out that “pointed out that “Since the reconstructed Chinese sounds are in turn the principal source available for reconstructing the older stages of Japanese, there is great danger of circularity on both sides of the argument.” Yet Pulleyblank himself fell into that very trap by reconstructing MC partly on the basis of his OJ reconstruction and vice versa.
As you can see, the citation on Wikipedia is a misconstrument of Miyake's original text.
Firstly, the Middle Chinese pronunciations of characters in different reconstructions vary, but not to the extent of disputed. Here is a comparison of the finals in various Middle Chinese reconstructions. A similar comparison exists on Wikipedia. In any case, the actual phonetic differences between different authors are small.
Secondly, Miyake and Pulleyblank commented on the danger of circular reasoning when OJ is reconstructed from a system of MC partly based on the OJ data. Amongst the reconstructions, Karlgren (高本漢)'s reconstruction of MC was the oldest modern phonetic reconstruction, and he drew his data from dialects throughout China and the Sinoxenic pronunciations in Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese. Most of the subsequent reconstructions have inherited his system with minimal changes, with the exception of Pulleyblank (蒲立本)'s, which also referenced his OJ reconstructions (hence the cricitism by Miyake) and was relatively divergent from the rest. Hence most of the MC reconstructions do make use of SJ data, but not OJ data. The fact that the reconstruction of MC used in OJ reconstructions makes use of SJ data ― which is an unambiguous set of descendant pronunciations ― is tortuous and non-ideal, but not circular.
Wyang (talk) 09:40, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


The simplified forms are wrong. How to fix it?--2001:DA8:201:3512:BCE6:D095:55F1:36DE 13:06, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Please see my edit. Wyang (talk) 13:12, 9 December 2017 (UTC)


Hi Frank. Could you help me have a look at the categories section here? I'm seeing some weird red links, don't know if anyone else is. I can see: Chinese v巧合&action=edit&section=1v巧合&action=edit&section=1. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:27, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

@Tooironic Yeah, weird error. Seems to be from this edit; did you accidentally paste the url in the entry? 是巧合嗎?XD Wyang (talk) 14:38, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. I guess so. Very strange. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:45, 10 December 2017 (UTC)


Would you like to fix the page? Dokurrat (talk) 17:52, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

@Dokurrat Sure, fixed. Wyang (talk) 14:21, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. Just to report, that the Gwoyeu Romatzyh the template generated ("n1.nha") is not convincing... (Did Gwoyeu Romatzyh's design cover this situation?) Dokurrat (talk) 18:23, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
我母鸡国语罗马字啊。。。@kc kennylau 也许知。 Wyang (talk) 05:11, 14 December 2017 (UTC)
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