Talk:到了

Which dialect?

Which dialect? 204.11.184.222 13:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Your question has been answered below. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Is it necessary to add the dàole?

It won't appear in a Chinese dictionary. I found dàoliǎo in Chinese dialect dictionary(ISBN: 7101008178). --Hahahaha哈 (talk) 02:13, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

It's important for disambiguation, even if it may not merit an entry if "dàoliǎo" didn't exist. "dào le"!= "dàoliǎo". It's also done so on English and other entries. Which dialect is it (question above)? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:17, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

First, just like 发出火花 you disguesed in Wiktionary:Requested_entries_(Chinese), simple verb + auxiliary word will never appear in Chinese dictionary, see 做了看了过了问了做过. So it will not be ambiguous in dictionary. Also, they have completely different pronunciation, so it will not be ambiguous in spoken Chinese. It is really unnecessary. And it is so strange to see dàole in dictionary. Maybe you should consider write it in Usage notes section. According to Chinese dialect dictionary(ISBN: 7101008178), it is spoken in Southwestern Mandarin西南官话 and Central Plains Mandarin中原官话. I also found it spoken in a city near Beijing, but I can't find a reference.--Hahahaha哈 (talk) 04:26, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

了 may be idiomatic in a number of expressions, e.g. 有了, 好了, 得了 and Pleco, Adsotrans, CEDIC dictionaries does contain a few others. I have changed the definition, if you insist so. Please check.

It (dàoliǎo) seems to be used in Northern Chinese, even if not so common in the south. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:42, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

I think labelling it {{cx|dialectal|_|Mandarin|lang=cmn}} is enough. Wyang (talk) 04:45, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

{{cx|regional|_|Mandarin|lang=cmn}} is better, it will add to the proper category. Yes, when it's harder to describe, which dialects, then just "regional" should be enough. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:50, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

BTW, we should use "sort", otherwise entries will not be sorted correctly, I've changed to {{cx|regional|sort=dao4liao3|lang=cmn}}. "Mandarin" is unnecessary, "regional" will be attached to the language name. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Which region? 173.89.236.187 01:44, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Region? why? I think it is part of the Chinese dialectology.--Hahahaha哈 (talk) 03:17, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Do we really need to add kau-liau?

@Justinrleung Because even though it is "original form" but I never heard anybody say it Caferatte89 (talk) 06:23, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Caferatte89: Not sure, but it's in the Penang Hokkien word list from here (馬來西亞北部詞彙). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:26, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Caferatte89: Also, are you sure about Singapore using this word as well? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:27, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I find it from here http://www.singlishdictionary.com/ (pau ka liau). I assume you just combine 到 (kàu) with 了 (liáu) (I can't find kàu-liáu), but it is a contraction word, and really no one say kàu-liáu at here.

@Justinrleung: kah pronunciation is incorrect too, 到 is various form for character 甲, so there is no connection for here.

@Caferatte89: Ok, I guess that's 50% proof of its use in Singapore, but I don't know if we can say if it's kah-liáu or kà-liáu or even something else, since it's given as Singlish. I'm not sure if you know what list I'm talking about, but it's the list of words you can download from the link above in step 4 under 如何用電腦打福建文？. If you look in that list, it lists these:

kahliau 徦了
kahliau kah-liáu
kahliaulang 徦了人
kahliaulang kah-liáu-lâng
kaliau 到了
kaliau kàu-liáu
kaliaulang 到了人
kaliaulang kàu-liáu-lâng
kauliaulang 到了人
kauliaulang kàu-liáu-lâng

— justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I'm not sure that is reliable, I think it's just because it is easier to type the characters but ok, if you think that it is the source for kah-liau and kau-liau then go ahead, because I can't find any other source that have kau-liau or kah-liau than this list. https://www.penang-traveltips.com/dictionary/index.htm If you see this, it's just show ka liau. Also, you literally can't find any other pages that write kau-liau when you search from Google. — This unsigned comment was added by Caferatte89 (talk • contribs) at 07:00, 5 March 2019 (UTC).

@Caferatte89: I don't think it necessarily has to do with it being "easier to type". Of course, it could be a little prescriptive, but I think we could probably include those pronunciations. Penang Travel Tips is a good source, but the romanizatino system it uses is sometimes confusing. I unfortunately don't have access to better sources, so I'm not sure if we should include kàu-liáu. I think @Freelance Intellectual has a copy of Penang Hokkien-English Dictionary, so if they could check that, it'd be great. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:20, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Tan Siew Imm's dictionary has: "kā-liáu: n. everything" and "kā-liáu-lâng: n. everyone; everybody". I can't find anything like "kàu-liáu". Luc de Gijzel's dictionary has: "everything: ka-liáu, lóng-chóng" and "everyone: ka-liáu-lâng". Again, I can't find "kàu-liáu". Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but there's no support from these dictionaries. The tone mark for "ka" vs. "kā" is different between these two dictionaries, but it would a be a low tone in both cases after tone sandhi -- which surprised me because "kàu" would normally sandhi to a high tone. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 16:28, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Freelance Intellectual: Thanks for looking these up. It's weird how both these sources suggest that the first syllable is a low tone. This doesn't match with the audio given at Timothy Tye's dictionary. @Caferatte89, what tone do you think the first syllable is? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:37, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: https://puu.sh/CVHg0.wav this is how I pronounce ka-liau and ka-liau-lang so tones that from Timothy Tye's dictionary are correct. Weird but if we follow the tone shandi rule it should be ká-liáu and ká-liáu-lâng. Caferatte89 (talk) 23:50, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

@Caferatte89: Thanks! I think in Penang Hokkien, tone 2 and 3 both sandhi to tone 1, so it could either be tone 2 or 3. BTW, you could actually upload this recording to Commons so we could add a recording to the pronunciation section (if you want). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:56, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Particle?

@The dog2 1) I don't think 都 is a particle, but an adverb. 2) Is 到了 really used like 都? I couldn't find it in the Penang Hokkien Dictionary. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I know it's strange, and it sounds strange to me too, but that's what I saw in the example sentences in the Penang Hokkien Dictionary. See the entries for "be33 ciak1" and "cai2" for examples. The dog2 (talk) 02:47, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: It's unclear to me whether it's the same as 都 or 全部. Unless we can use 到了 with another word meaning "all", I don't think we should treat it as the same as 都. We can say 他們全部都來了 or 𪜶全部攏來矣, but can you say 𪜶全部到了來 or something like that? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:55, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: In Singapore no, but I'm not sure about Penang. I was just going off the sample sentences in the Penang Hokkien dictionary, and they just seemed to use 到了 where I would have used 攏. The dog2 (talk) 03:10, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I suspect there's also 攏 in Penang Hokkien. @Freelance Intellectual, any idea? Also pinging @Caferatte89, who speaks Penang Hokkien (but hasn't been active lately). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 03:12, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: My impression (as a non-native speaker) is that kà-liáu is the most common Penang term meaning "all", and it can be used both as a pronoun (~ English "everything") and as an adverb (~ Mandarin 都, Taiwanese Hokkien 攏). Both de Gijzel's and Tan's dictionaries list "kà-liáu" and "lóng-chóng" as used in Penang. (Actually, de Gijzel writes "ka-liáu" and Tan writes "kā-liáu", but tone sandhi (and orthography of tone sandhi) is another issue...) Neither dictionary has example sentences for "kà-liáu", but from a Google search I found a forum discussion about "kà-liáu" which includes some examples of the adverbial use, as well as another adverbial example in another discussion on the same site. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 13:53, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I've added the adverbial sense. I also changed the label to "Penang Hokkien". My understanding is that Southern Peninsular Malaysian Hokkien is closer to Singapore Hokkien than to Penang Hokkien. If it's not used with this meaning in Singapore, I'd be surprised if it is in Southern Malaysia. This is my best guess and I'd be open to changing this. Freelance Intellectual (talk) 13:33, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

@Freelance Intellectual: Thanks! Looks good (except for some minor formatting things, which I've fixed)! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 18:42, 10 June 2020 (UTC)