Last modified on 29 March 2015, at 17:01

User talk:Atitarev


Mandarin pinyin maEdit

You have made a roll back of my edits: [1]. I had started a discussion on bear parlour [2] about it. Please take part in that discussion. I can understand you will want to roll back the headline but why also my definition and example on use of ma? Kinamand (talk) 17:30, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Module talk:rue-translit →‎ Wiktionary talk:Rusyn transliterationEdit

Я надеюсь что ты заметил что я передвинул эту страницу. --WikiTiki89 20:34, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


Я сказал в edit summary "This is not what the talk namespace is for. If you want to preserve the entry in case of re-creation, do so in your user space: User:Atitarev/викифицировать." Ты это не видел? --WikiTiki89 23:48, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

extension cordEdit

Just letting you know I corrected the Mandarin translation for this one. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:07, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I have split your translation into lemmas and added a shorter version, which also has an interwiki link. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:13, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

update on Module:ko-headwordEdit

Hi, as you may have noticed I've added support for all of the parts of speech and added automatic transliteration. One thing is different because it was harder to reproduce in the module, and somebody who knows more maybe should work on them: instead of e.g. "infinitive 짊어지어 or 짊어져", it displays "infinitive 짊어지어, infinitive 짊어져".

The automatic transliteration has hyphens between syllables, and the manual romanizations (that I've seen) do not, and I don't know if the hyphens should be stripped or what.

At this point I would start beta testing by replacing templates with calls to this module while watching for bugs but I thought it more prudent to stop here until everybody is on board and knows what's going on. It's still missing the proposed changes for 하다-verbs, but besides that, it is complete (I think) and (probably) works. Haplogy () 02:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


Just letting you know I corrected your Mandarin translation here (母乳 is breastmilk not breastfeeding). ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:45, 8 January 2014 (UTC)


Какого рода рыба-кит? Конечно по отдельности, рыба — женского, а кит — мужского. --WikiTiki89 16:41, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Женского. Обычно по первой части, как кресло-качалка--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:59, 11 January 2014 (UTCVladio (talk) 07:22, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Anatoli, род слова "рыба-кит" мужской, как написано в сказке: Поперек его лежит Чудо-юдо рыба-кит; Десять лет уж он страдает...Vladio (talk) 07:22, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Я думал, это как в немецком Mädchen - грамматически среднего рода, но когда говорят о девушке, то используют sie, а не es, если это не очень маленькая девочка. Да, спасибо, подтвердил, что это мужской род, исправлю. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:33, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Я когда искал цитаты, находил и мужского и женского. Но мне тогда казалось что женский чаще исползывается, но может быть и не так. --WikiTiki89 15:51, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Если используется как женский, то надо добавить "g2=f-an". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 19:52, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Adverbial present template for Russian verbs?Edit

Hello. Long time no contact, drug moj. I wonder if you can make a template for adverbial present verb forms? For example {{past passive participle of|VERB|lang=????}} for past passive participle verbs? Thank you. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 10:46, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

예, 오랜만이야, 친구 :) It's there, you can model on чи́танный (čítannyj). I think it will be possible to generate inflected forms in an accelerated way and the bot will be able to make them much quicker. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:17, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much. In a casual conversation between two people, you can say 그래, 응, or 그럼 instead of 예. I feel very uncomfortable that Colloquial Korean is extremely too different from Standard Korean. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 14:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, you shouldn't feel uncomfortable :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 19:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

You missed one.Edit

[Ric Laurent] — 18:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Did I? Oh fuck, have you deleted it? :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:09, 15 January 2014 (UTC)
Of course not lol. Lason pula mea de CodeCat. — [Ric Laurent] — 03:05, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Stir fried ...Edit

It was more of a negative example... There can be millions of these, eg. 西紅柿炒黃瓜, 黃瓜炒, 肉炒蘑菇, 蘑菇炒魷魚, 魷魚炒芹菜, 芹菜炒木耳, 木耳炒山藥...... But anyway. Wyang (talk) 03:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

I understand what you mean, I just look differently at this. Look how many English and Japanese dishes we store in Wiktionary compared to Chinese, many of which are multi-word terms. Also, as a traveler, I'd like to make a life a bit easier for those who try to unscramble foreign language menus, especially with common, atomic food items. I've got both 番茄炒蛋 and 西红柿炒鸡蛋 on my dictionaries, anyway. You can, of course, RFD them ... BTW, I didn't create them out of spite or something. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:52, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Можно спрасить?Edit

Привет? Можно спасить?

1. Эта фраза - правильная? -> Я плохо говорю по-руски, но учусь много(?).

2. Когда-нибудь много украинцы прийдут в Чеджу(?).

Концом, эти дни я учусь французский(^^). --Russ (talk) 21:11, 18 January 2014 (UTC)

Конечно можно!
Привет! Правильно будет "спросить".
1. Я плохо говорю по-русски, но много учусь.
2. Когда-нибудь много украинцев приедут в Чеджу. "Придут" если они придут пешком, не на самолёте, поезде или машине.
3. И ещё/и последнее, в последнее время я учу французский (язык).
Удачи! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:06, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Большое спасибо(^^). До свидания(^^). --Russ (talk) 00:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


Am I going crazy, or does that pronunciation clip sound like zhànshēng? ---> Tooironic (talk) 22:30, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I think she's got a bit of a southern accent (Taiwanese?) but she pronounces the first and the second initial identically, it's closer to "zh" than "sh" but not the way Beijingers would speak, IMHO.
BTW, here's a source for new vocabulary to add - Appendix:Mandarin Frequency lists, apart from HSK. There are some duplicated rows and pinyin is either Taiwanese pronunciation or wrong in some cases (also wrong capitalisation, missing ', etc.). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:58, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


Did you use some kind of script to create this entry? If so, can you tell me which? —CodeCat 00:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I used Ruakh's User:Ruakh/Tbot.js, which is in my User:Atitarev/common.js. It creates entries from translations. It works better with Russian, by my request but for Japanese I need to tweak the entry a lot. For accelerated entry creation, I have started using a bunch of good templates in User:Atitarev/New Entry templates, including Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, created by User:Wyang. Template:cmn-new (a newer version of Template:cmn new) works the best but seems to have a few flaws, which I either fix manually (PoS are not all covered) or ignore and remove (IPA for erhua). I had some issues with the Korean template but I will test more and give feedback. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:02, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for letting me know. The script used Module:language utilities, which I'm trying to orphan. I fixed it now. —CodeCat 01:10, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Category:Korean proper nouns in Han script ?Edit

I just noticed that currently, hanja proper nouns are not placed in Category:Korean proper nouns. It's a bug in the module, but to know how to fix it, it has to be decided if a Korean proper noun in hanja such as 太平洋 should be in Category:Korean proper nouns or Category:Korean proper nouns in Han script or both. What do you think? Haplogy () 01:47, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I'd say in both, if possible. Ideally, other PoS in Hanja should be in both cats, sorted by hangeul. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:52, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Direct calls to transliteration modulesEdit

I'm trying to make all transliteration modules invoked either through {{xlit}}, or if it's in a module, through Module:languages#transliterate. Could you help me track down all cases where templates or modules directly call the transliteration module? —CodeCat 17:59, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

It seems complicated to me, what you're doing. I would do advanced search in templates and modules by some keywords and "pages that link to" using template and module namespaces. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:23, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I tried that, but it doesn't seem to find anything. —CodeCat 23:34, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
I can suggest to check headword and declension templates for the following languages: Armenian, Georgian, Mongolian, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Tajik, Adyghe, Bashkir, Belarusian, Ukrainian, Russian, Sinhalese, Bulgarian. Perhaps it's better to check with some editors to see if they are willing to check templates they work with. Sorry for not being very helpful. :) I hate working with too many templates at a time, I prefer to work with words and phrases. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:44, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
@CodeCat, why can't you just search the dumps for all modules that appear as translit modules in Module:languages? --WikiTiki89 06:20, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


I'd like to make this entry a soft redirect for 鵜鶘, could you do it for me? I've forgotten what the script was. Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:23, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

What I mean is an "alternative form" entry. Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:23, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. Please take a look. I've changed 鵜鶘 and the simp variants of both as well. Please take a look. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:31, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Multi-component wordsEdit

Hi, when creating multi-component words you should decompose characters in hanzi-box by component of compound, not by character. eg. 八卦. You can use |type=... (|type=21 in this case) in Template:cmn-new to achieve this. Wyang (talk) 07:03, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean like this: {{zh-hanzi|八卦}}? I usually do but I missed this one. I don't the compound types, could you document them? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:09, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
It is in Template:cmn-new#Additional parameters. Wyang (talk) 07:11, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
I can only see |type=21,12,22,211,112 but I don't know their meanings. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:13, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
I have added some examples to that page. Wyang (talk) 07:20, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


Could you find a quote for this, and add IPA (if anyone even ever says it out loud)? It's nominated for FWOTD. —CodeCat 01:53, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Also, the Latin script spelling is nominated for RFV, so would you be able to find citations of it in running Russian-language text? —CodeCat 01:55, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I've edited лытдыбр as requested but it's harder to add much useful to lytdybr. There are a few mentions but little uses. It's used in LJ but I can't find anything in Google books. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:07, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Google Groups has tons of hits for the Latin spelling, some of which would make good citations. But I'm not very good at telling which ones are actually Usenet and which ones aren't. --WikiTiki89 03:22, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
I thought we can only use Google books, not Google groups for valid citations? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:23, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
We can use Usenet, which is archived by Google Groups. But not everything on Google Groups is Usenet. --WikiTiki89 03:29, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Feel free to add something. I'm not very familiar with Usenet. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:08, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Neither am I, that's the problem. --WikiTiki89 17:20, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Creation of a new part of speech for Mandarin?Edit

Would it be possible to create a new part of speech category for "attributive nouns", e.g. 公共, 食用, etc.? They are not really adjectives per se... ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:05, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree but it has to be discussed in BP, I think --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:08, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Japanese has adjectival nouns (categorised as nouns), see 便利. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:02, 26 January 2014 (UTC)


В песне Владимира Высоцкого «Честь шахматной короны» (текст; ютюб: ч.1, ч.2), не понимаешь ли ты, почему Высоцкий несколько раз (Бобби) Фишера называет «Шифером»? --WikiTiki89 20:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Он просто обзывает Фишера, совершенно по-детски, на мой взгляд. «Фишер» звучит почти как «шифер» (шиферные крыши очень распространены в России). Если бы мальчик с такой фамилией учился в русской школе, ему бы, скорее всего, дали такую кличку. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 21:59, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Понятно. Я думал, что может быть там был какой-то более глубокий смысл. --WikiTiki89 23:00, 28 January 2014 (UTC)


What makes you think this is Taiwanese Mandarin? I've heard Mainlanders use it many times to describe op shops. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:24, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I agree it's not limited to Taiwan. Check the edit history, mate, the last edit is Wyang (talkcontribs)'s. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:26, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Script errorsEdit

Please look at Category:Pages with script errors. There are a few pages where Malayalam translations are apparently causing Module:ml-translit to choke.Chuck Entz (talk) 03:52, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I was hoping someone might fix the module, so I left it with errors intentionally. Since nobody does, I've taken it out from Module:languages/data2 for now. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:57, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
I think I fixed at least some errors. Can you stop with the shotgun debugging? It is not helping. Keφr 07:42, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
OK, thanks for fixing the problems. Which part did annoy you? Adding the modules to Module:languages/data2 or adding larger passages for testing? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Hoping to fix a module without first understanding the problem. You added code which would set c and d to empty strings if they were ever nil, to avoid error when concatenating them. But c and d were never themselves concatenated; what was concatenated were the results of looking up the consonant and diacritic tables with keys c and d. And some table keys which could be looked up were missing. Never mind c and d were never nil. And instead of modifying the substitution pattern to find visarga-marked consonants, you added code to find them after the bare consonant has already been transliterated. Keφr 08:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I stuffed it up. Thanks for fixing. You're under no obligation to help, though. If you're not available or you get irritated by other people's mistakes, just don't do it, I won't approach you. I don't want to be told off. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:45, 3 February 2014 (UTC)


Hi. On Talk:еслибы, an IP has questioned whether or not еслибы is a valid spelling. Do you know? Ngram data suggests that it was used in the past but may be {{cx|now|rare}} or {{cx|dated}} / {{cx|archaic}}. - -sche (discuss) 06:20, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Just for some added reference, here's an Ngram with all of the variants. --WikiTiki89 06:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
It's a common misspelling, at least in the modern Russian. Particle бы (by) is often erroneously attached to the preceding word as it bears no stress and can be abbreviated to б (b) and there are words where it is attached. Dostoyevsky used it spelled solid, so some other words and other authors. I will look more closely when I get to my desktop but I would mark it as old spelling of если бы (jesli by). Modern grammarians would definitely frown at such a form. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:46, 5 February 2014 (UTC)


I'm trying to add pǔpiàn as a common Taiwan variant pronunciation, can you help me? ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Done. What do you think? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:49, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Is there a way to integrate that information into the Pronunciation header? Because technically I don't think it can be considered a Usage note per se. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Also, if you have time, would you mind combining Category:cmn:Variant_Pronunciations_in_traditional_script, Category:cmn:Variant_Pronunciations_in_simplified_script and Category:cmn:Variant_Pronunciations? Plus I think the "P" should not be capitalised, right? ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:47, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
Fixing categories is quite time-consuming. I don't know why you still use in_traditional_script/in_simplified_script suffixes. We just need to phase them out and stop using them, fix entries we edit. I have requested a bot job but nobody has done it yet. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

More examples of attributive nounsEdit

醫務. More to come. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
對外. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:35, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
Hi Carl. I agree about 對外, not 醫務, which is just a noun. Not sure if you read my responses on my talk page but you're probably better off posting here. That discussion is not going anywhere. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)


Hi, you might find this useful - Template:ja-new. Cheers, Wyang (talk) 00:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Beautiful! I'll test it and let you know if there are any major issues. Why do you have k= with hangeul examples? Is this to be used inside Japanese entries or was it meant for Korean and you left it there by mistake? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:25, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I see. You kill two birds with one stone with this revision. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:27, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Yes. (out of laziness :)) Wyang (talk) 00:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Great that you have motivation to develop such templates. Do you feel interest in improving the way we work with Thai or any other abugida scripts? Lao or Khmer would be easier and they seem more predictable and regular but I'm more familiar with Thai and I'm planning to brush it up. Burmese script is a bit too hard, would be great if we had modules/templates to transliterate those (at least the predictable pronunciation) and have accelerated creation. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:57, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
I have interest in this - although I am more familiar with Burmese (as a result of the closer affinity with Chinese) than Thai, Lao or Khmer. It shouldn't be too hard to autotransliterate these, but I would need to brush up my knowledge of these scripts beforehand. Also, the Korean templates and modules need an overhaul like Japanese. There is too much redundancy at present. Wyang (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
@Wyang: Sorry, there's one more case at Module:PinyinBopo-convert/testcases - hyphens are not uncommon in standard Pinyin. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:13, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Zhuyin doesn't seem to use any other symbols, so I have removed hyphens in the conversion. Wyang (talk) 01:18, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, that's what I meant too. Dōngnán-Yà = ㄉㄨㄥ ㄋㄢˊ ㄧㄚˋ :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:20, 10 February 2014 (UTC)


It does in fact exist as an attributive adjective, but is never used alone (or at least it seems to be the case), either predicatively or as a noun: here and here. JamesjiaoTC 01:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, James, could you change the usage notes at 羅宋湯/罗宋汤, please? In my Pleco dictionary, it did say old transliteration of "Russian". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:24, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Never mind, I'll do it myself, please check. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:26, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

User:Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV/missing translationsEdit

Let me know when you need a reset, or if anything is wrong (i.e. entries with translations being listed). Note that entries with translations to be checked are included in the lists. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:50, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:00, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

About the attention tag in 一目惚れEdit

You have left a note in 一目惚れ saying that you would "fix it later". Please fix it now. --kc_kennylau (talk) 10:43, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 19:21, 28 February 2014 (UTC)


КосаясьКасательно этого изменения, {{ping}} работает только если ты в том же изменении подписываешься четырьмя ~~~~. --WikiTiki89 05:19, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

Спасибо. Я не знал. Ну ничего, если они не появятся, я повторю. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:24, 12 March 2014 (UTC)


Hi Anatoli. Is there a way to make "alternative forms" entries of 麻痹 for 痲痹 and 痲痺? ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

What is the issue? You can use {{cmn-new}}, copy definitions? These can, in turn, have "alternative forms". I'll make later, if you don't come around. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:19, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Hmm, I had a try, take a look. Seems OK but it's not creating an "alternative forms" category though. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:15, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
The categorisation has been removed by @CodeCat:, I think. The rationale being "alternative forms" are synonyms, misspellings, regionalisms, erhua, etc. as far as I remember. I don't fully agree but she might be able to explain it better. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:20, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Онлай ивритский словарьEdit

В отличие от арабского, у иврита есть отличный онлайн словарьчик со всеми гласными: Надеюсь, тебе пригодится. --WikiTiki89 01:22, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Спасибо, но он у меня уже есть в списке: User:Atitarev/Language resources :). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

AWB approval requestEdit

Hi, could you approve me for using AWB? Neitrāls vārds (talk) 05:34, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi. OK. Where? Could you give me the link? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:36, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
I believe that you must make a request for registration as an AWB user here: w:Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser. —Stephen (Talk) 06:46, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
On second thought, I think you might only have to be added to Wiktionary:AutoWikiBrowser/CheckPage. An admin will have to do it for you. —Stephen (Talk) 06:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry for not giving the link right away. It says you're a both an admin and bureaucrat though, –Stephen...? Neitrāls vārds (talk) 07:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I have no idea about AWB. I never used it. I am an admin but I may not have the authority to use AWB myself. I don't know. My account doesn't appear on the list. @Stephen G. Brown:, could you add both of us, please? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
I don’t know much about it either. However, I have added you both. —Stephen (Talk) 07:40, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! Neitrāls vārds (talk) 08:34, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Stephen. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:08, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Two thingsEdit

  • I wonder if you can fix взглядывать. It's not that good.
  • As mentioned here, I think there is a good need to have new Perfective Counterpart and Imperfective Counterpart (for example, here). What do you think? The imperfective/perfective distinction is very important in Russian. If it's ok, I want to hear your input on this.

Thank you.--KoreanQuoter (talk) 12:29, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry about the whole change of the header thing. I just want to make things better for the Russian verb forms. Maybe my idea wasn't that good in the long run. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 13:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
No problem. As long as you learn and improve. :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:46, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Transliteration ModulesEdit

Hello. I just wanted to let you know that both Module:sa-translit and Module:yi-translit are ready to be used. Sanskrit does not have any schwa deletion at all, so it functions perfectly well the way it is. DerekWinters (talk) 16:55, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Is Module:sa-translit based on IAST? That's the system we use. --Vahag (talk) 18:22, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it does seem to follow the standard. I have added both to Module:languages/data2. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:10, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Reversion of "official"Edit

I think you reverted my changes to "official" because you didn't like me changing "football" to "soccer". Did you know there are at least six other football games, five of them played internationally, to which the example does not apply?

In any case, did you realise that you wiped out a quote at the same time? I'm in the habit of making minor changes while I'm adding quotes (my main editting activity) so maybe I'd better stop doing that. ReidAA (talk) 22:25, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi. The reversal was 100% accidental, sorry, I didn't even see what I have reverted. I have reverted my own reversal immediately after that, please check the history. Sorry, if you lost something. It means that Wiktionary reversal didn't work. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:33, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Declension of сам in BelarusianEdit

Hi, I've set up a template which only applies to this pronoun as the accent changes to the first syllable in the nominative and accusative plural. Please let me know if this template is OK and if I could also use it for the same pronoun in Russian and Ukrainian.Vedac13 (talk)

Do you mean this one Template:be-pro-sam? (You could've given me the link). It looks accurate. Perhaps User:CodeCat could check it for quality. You can go ahead and do it for Belarusian and Ukrainian but for Russian, I'd prefer a transliteration function, which is aware of exceptions and transliterates "самого́ "(gen., acc. sg of сам (sam)) as "samovó", not "samogó". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Listing synonyms etc. e.g. 政治家Edit

Is there a standard for this? I have put the pinyin first in synonym/antonym/see also lists for many years. I did this because if there are multiple entries such as at 魔鬼 and 主義 the user can navigate the list alphabetically. I know it's not perfect, but I don't think it's particularly useful to have the pinyin after the word in brackets. I hope we can reach a compromise on this. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:44, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

I know you've been doing this all the time but I never agreed to it. There's definitely no standard for putting wikified romanisation in front of a native script term in any language. No pinyin at all is a better alternative than the way you do it. Sorry, I can't agree with you.
  1. Having {{l}} converts characters to the correct format, defined at one place - MediaWiki:Common.css. 政客 is better formatted than 政客 (on some computers the latter will appear as squares)
  2. There's no need to wikify and promote pinyin red- or blue-linked, they're not words, as you know. Why "zhèngkè" should be wikified?
  3. You can still sort long lists by pinyin (but I don't see why you need sorting). In any case, here's one of the possible sorted alternatives:
Wyang's accelerated creation tool has "syn=" parameter, which will add a formatted synonym. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:00, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
@Tooironic: (pinging you in case you forget to come back again :). Note that your list didn't show traditional forms of 凶煞 and 凶神. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:23, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Chiming in from the sidelines, as it were --
As a student of Chinese, I would greatly appreciate it if such lists of synonyms could also include some kind of gloss to help me differentiate. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 05:34, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Glosses are problematic, especially on large lists like this (some can definitely be removed from the above), they may have remote "devil" sense. You can use Perapera Chinese plugin with CEDIC dictionary, which may give some clues. Now that creating Chinese entries has become easy, thanks to User:Wyang we should try to fill those red-links :). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:41, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
  • All right, no worries, I'll follow this new way from now on. Just keep in mind there are hundreds of entries that I have edited this way over the years. We may never get them all standardised without some kind of automated tool. ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:59, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
  • What if I need to display both tra and sim scripts? How does the script look then? E.g. at 董事. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:12, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
I usually do like this:

"Or you can do like this:

Note that {{l|cmn}} also links to the right language. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:26, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
No worries, mate. I personally have no problem if you do just 董事會, 董事会 (dǒngshìhuì) or even without pinyin, {{l|cmn}} is just preferable (Wyang's tool can add formatted synonyms automatically), it's using wikified pinyin I objected to and positioning it at the front. Don't worry about all entries, they will be reformatted eventually, as long as we agree on the correct format going forward. Don't forget about the Unified Chinese vote, starts tomorrow. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:58, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Changes to Chinese categoriesEdit

Don't you think it's a bit premature to be merging them? The vote hasn't even started yet. —CodeCat 03:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

You must have misunderstood. I messed up categories previously, ending up with Category:Cantonese Mandarin, etc., which don't make sense. Category:Chinese language already existed, I only fixed it partially. If you object, reverse but it's not in a good shape now. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:44, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
There aren't any Mandarin speakers in Canton? —CodeCat 04:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
Cantonese is a topolect label, "Cantonese Mandarin" doesn't make sense (Mandarin = 1. Putonghua/Guoyu/Huayu = standard Chinese; 2. or a set of Northern and South-Eastern dalects), "Cantonese Chinese" does make sense. Perhaps I should remove Hong Kong, Guangzhou, etc. as synonyms and leave just Cantonese. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:28, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
But isn't "Cantonese Mandarin" the same kind of thing as "Irish English"? The variety of Mandarin spoken by Cantonese people? —CodeCat 04:31, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
No, Cantonese is a specific name of a topolect of the Chinese language, not a regional name, even if it originated in Canton (Guangzhou city or Guangdong province), cf. with "Norwegian Nynorsk" (not limited to specific regions), it doesn't matter where it's spoken, Cantonese and Mandarin are spoken in Malaysaia, Singapore, Indonesia, Australia, Canada, etc.. There is to some extent, Hong Kong, Guangzhou type of Mandarin (regional), though. I've taken out synonyms. "Cantonese Chinese" is the right plain category name. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:35, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
I know that Cantonese is also a language, Category:Cantonese language. But Irish is a language by itself, and there's also Irish English. In the same way there could be both the Cantonese language, and Mandarin spoken by Cantonese people, right? —CodeCat 04:37, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
There is no definition of Cantonese Mandarin, though but as I said, there can be, potentially Hong Kong Mandarin, "Cantonese" is reserved, "Guangdong Mandarin" would be better, using the modern name, otherwise, as I said, it doesn't make sense. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:41, 28 March 2014 (UTC)


Hiya. What's the standard way to mark synonyms of different senses, e.g. at 轉行? ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:33, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. Pls take a look. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:43, 1 April 2014 (UTC)


Your inclusion of the final #ifeq statement was causing issues with the formatting of the headline, so I removed it for now. What were you trying to do, just wondering? JamesjiaoTC 08:36, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks. I was trying to fix the sorting tracking category that appeared on a number of entries. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:30, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Changing Japanese Counter to ClassifierEdit

No one has discussed changing headers in any language other than Chinese, so you have no consensus/permission to do so. If you've made any changes to Japanese, please stop doing so immediately and undo them at once!! Chuck Entz (talk) 13:51, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Converting to Template:langEdit

I'm working on converting script templates like {{Cyrl}} to use {{lang}} instead, which has Lua support. It's easy to convert it automatically, but in some cases the language is missing, so the bot can't tell what language to give to {{lang}}. Those are listed here. Would you be able to fix some of those? You'd only have to add a lang= parameter to {{Cyrl}}, or alternative you can convert it straight to {{lang}} if you prefer. —CodeCat 21:31, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Okey. I'll fix them. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Could you do the rest? I've nominated the script templates for deletion now. —CodeCat 23:09, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
The category seems empty. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:55, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Need Assistance in creating сам declension template for Ukrainian =Edit

Hi, I have been attempting to create a сам declension template for Ukrainian ( For some reason the template is not appearing as it should. I've tried a number of variations to make it appear properly - but to no avail. Could you check to see what is missing? Vedac13 (talk)

Well, you need the template you're calling by the template - {{uk-decl-pron}}, it doesn't exist. You can model it on {{be-decl-pron}}. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, AnatoliVedac13 (talk)

Не спеши архивировать дискуссииEdit

Пожалуйста жди хотя бы неделю после закрытия до того, как архивировать дискуссии в WT:RFD и WT:RFV. Я заметил, что ты часто закрываешь и сразу архивируешь. --WikiTiki89 02:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Не пойму зачем ждать, если она уже закрыта? Ещё ждать несогласных с закрытием? Каждый, кто закрывает несет ответственность и судит по тому как шла дискуссия. Несогласные, конечно, могут открыть дискуссию снова. Если пользоваться новым инструментом Kephir-а, насколько я понял, то всё делается одновременно - закрытие и архивация. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:40, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Надо дать время всем увидеть чем кончилась, особенно тем, кто могут быть несогласны. На странице WT:RFV даже написано сверху: "At least a week after a request has been closed, if no one has objected to its disposition, the request may be archived to the entry's talk-page or to WT:RFVA." --WikiTiki89 03:17, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Хорошо, не буду сразу архивировать. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Мой инструмент не закрвает, только архивирует. Даже и я дал там информацию: "Keep closed discussions unarchived for at least 7 days." Кефир 10:16, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Понял, спасибо. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)


Hi Anatoli. Could you please unprotect this template for a while? I'd like to edit it further. Thanks. Wyang (talk) 10:46, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Done. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:56, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for that. I have finished editing now. Wyang (talk) 11:26, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Template:Han KangXi linkEdit

Why did you delete this template? Now none of the links to the appropriate page of the Kangxi dictionary work in thousands of entries. 14:29, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. The template itself looks like an error. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:24, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Have you ever heard of Special:Whatlinkshere? You don't delete a template that's used on 20,000+ pages according to Special:Mostlinkedtemplates. -- Liliana 20:50, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes. I have, sorry again. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 21:11, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

English entries for Chinese species etcEdit

I have created entries for Camellia oleifera, tea oil camellia, tea oil plant, oil-seed camellia, and tea oil, based on your (flattering) mention of my name in Chinese requested entries. I am happy to work on any entries for taxonomic names, English "vernacular" names of such taxa, and English true vernacular names not in a one-to-one relationship to a taxon, especially if it helps others with specific needs. Otherwise I usually work on the taxa which have the most uses within the {{taxlink}} template, based on analysis of the XML dump. Sadly I have not been able to work on that for the past 2 months, but should soon get back to it.

Let me know what you need. DCDuring TALK 23:01, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

@DCDuring:. Thank you for that! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:56, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Checking verb formEdit

I just made бежал. I wonder if you can check to see anything wrong or something. I'm being very cautious about organizing the verb forms in Russian. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 06:12, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Good job. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:16, 20 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you kindly. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 06:22, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

SC reversionEdit

Can you explain what objections you have to my edit? In its current form the Usage notes section doesn't describe usage of the term in the slightest, it just makes an irrelevant remark about politics while ignoring that the term Serbo-Croatian is seldomly used by native speakers and that it is mostly avoided. 22:21, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The usage note referred to "native speakers", but it's an English term, so it would be assumed to refer to native English speakers. However, English speakers would have no problem calling it Serbo-Croatian, so the usage note doesn't seem appropriate. It's really the term in Serbo-Croatian itself, i.e. srpskohrvatski, that would warrant such a note. —CodeCat 22:26, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't explain why the currently present Usage notes is prefered. 22:27, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Why can Holland have a Usage note where it's stated that Dutch can find the term to be offensive? 22:29, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
That's different. "Holland", as an English term, can be used when speaking English to Dutch people, and those Dutch people might consider it offensive. "Serbo-Croatian" could also be considered offensive by one of the Serbo-Croatian speaking people when speaking English to them. But that's relevant to English usage. What people call their own language in their own language is not relevant to English, unless it affects how English speakers speak English. —CodeCat 22:32, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
But that's the entire point. My addition is there to make it obvious for English speakers that native speakers use different terminology. As such, an English speaker speaking to them could potentially offend them. Similar to how a Dutch person from Gelderland might be offended using the word Holland. I still don't see why the current Usage note is relevant to the entry. Can you explain? 22:37, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
But in the context of an English word, "native speaker" refers to a native speaker of English. --WikiTiki89 22:37, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes. A native English speaker using the word Serbo-Croatian might offend a speaker of Serbo-Croatian if they use the term Serbo-Croatian. I do not see how that is not relevant. The entry to which I made an analogy (Holland) has a Usage note section for the English word Holland, wherein it is explained that Dutch people might find the usage offensive. Is that also out of place? 22:42, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
The complaint being made here was that the usage notes referred to "native speakers". As Wikitiki said, in an English language section, that refers to native speakers of English. So the usage note ended up saying that English speakers don't use "Serbo-Croatian" and might be offended, which is obviously not true. It should really be clarified that it's Serbo-Croatian speakers who could be offended. —CodeCat 22:48, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
The usage notes have been edited by me and WikiTiki to address these concerns. I agree with the IP that Wiktionary is not the place to take jabs at people who think the SC lects are distinct languages. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:46, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
We see "Serbo-Croatian" in a positive light, which is Wiktionary policy. Frowning upon "Serbo-Croatian" is nationalism (even if it's supported by governments), which was mentioned in the original notes. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:53, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Wiktionary does that only for linguistic/practical purposes. But language usage doesn't have to be linguistic or practical, or follow Wiktionary's practice. We shouldn't judge whether people are using words wrong, we should be descriptive here. If people are generally offended if you say they speak Serbo-Croatian, we should say so. It wouldn't do to say they're wrong to be offended, that's not up to us. —CodeCat 22:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
The problem is, I think there is no real analysis on what percentage of native speakers consider this term "offensive", they just avoid it and call it "naš jezik" (our language) or similar. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:59, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't think we need to be that exact about it. From our own personal experiences at Wiktionary, we know that offence will be widespread enough that one would want to be careful in using the term. —CodeCat 23:03, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Duplication for the entry АнглiяEdit

Hi Anatoli, While checking the Belarusian Category page for countries [[3]], I found links to two different pages for Англiя. I think the link to the page including the Ukrainian information for Англiя underneath should be retained, while the other page for Англiя should be deleted.Vedac13 (talk)

I don't get it. А́нглія (Ánhlija) is just one page (both be and uk). It also appears in the categories Category:be:Countries and Category:uk:Countries. Which page should be deleted? It appears only once in both lists. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:43, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Already fixed. Keφr 11:47, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Japanese first-person pronounsEdit

I have added frequency tables in わたし on the Japanese Wiktionary. Do you find them useful also here? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 11:53, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think so but could the tables be made expandable? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:57, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Like this?
TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:24, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Shinji, it's a great and useful table! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:28, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
Template:Japanese first-person pronouns. Please improve it as you want. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:49, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Your rollback at surrenderEdit

Hello Atitarev -- I do not understand your rollback here. Silent Sam is a solid, longtime editor, and his edits were straightforward, reasonable improvements to that page. I think you made a mistake. Respectfully -- · (talk) 22:18, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with the Talking Point. --WikiTiki89 22:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry. It was an accident! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:37, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
That's what I suspected. --WikiTiki89 00:39, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Unicode in language modulesEdit

I've made a few changes to how Unicode character codes are added in these modules. Now you can use a special u with the character codepoint directly, prefixed with 0x. So there's no need to convert numbers anymore. —CodeCat 20:30, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank G-d! I assume there's still not easy way to do it in strings though other than "foo" + u(0x1234) + u(0x4321) + "bar". --WikiTiki89 20:35, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. That's a good change! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:48, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

romanised pronunciations for WuEdit

Hi Anatoli. Do you know where I can find a list of romanised pronunciations for Wu? JamesjiaoTC 02:27, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Good question. If I knew, I would add to 北京#Chinese. Wyang is using WT transliteration (i.e. Wiktionary). I think that's his own invention, he's making it from the sound recordings. He gave me a link with audio recordings in Wu but I don't remember where that discussion is. Well, if we have no standard Wu translit., we should make one?
I think it's a good idea to add various examples in different topolects but if there's nothing available, we shouldn't bust our balls. As long as nothing from the existing stuff (Cantonese, Wu, Min Nan) is lost, we'll deliver on the promise that merging Chinese hasn't caused any damage. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
So far, I've only seen only IPA or makeshift transliterations of Wu, often without tone indications and inconsistent. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:44, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Right. It would have to be based on one of the dialects though as they do sound distinctively different (especially between Northern and Southern Wu dialect groups). I suggest Shanghainese as it has the most speakers and it's a member of the larger of the two groups. Might also run into issues where two words are homophones in Wu (e.g., 宁愿 (would rather)/人缘 (popularity with other people)) but not in Mandarin and words/characters that have the same pronunciation in two different compounds in Mandarin, but different pronunciations in Wu (e.g., in 房间 (vang gei) and 间谍 (ji deh). The lack of tone is also a concern. Some have claimed that Shanghainese is not tonal. They can't be more wrong. in 房间 shares the same basic phonetic components as in 方块, but suprasegmentally, the two are different. This is a hard one. Maybe I will have a look around for any more established romanisation schemes. JamesjiaoTC 03:06, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Homophones are always a problem and they don't have to coincide with Mandarin. Yes, please check, if you can find. You could check with Wyang's findings as well. He may have something automated. See Module:wuu-pron and what links to it. Adding tones may be a hurdle. Note that our Lao transliteration doesn't cater for tones either (it's not shown how consonant classes and other things affect tones of vowels) but a dictionary I use has IPA with tones. Would you say no transliteration at all if tones are not indicated for Wu? Shanghainese should probably be used as prestigious Wu but there are ways to mark any regional accent too. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:16, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
@Atitarev:, @Jamesjiao: The WT romanisation is a system I invented for Shanghainese. I'd like to document it somewhere, alongwith a fairly systematic introduction of the tone sandhi in Shanghainese. What would be a good place to put it? Wyang (talk) 04:26, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
It depends how big and where used. Wiktionary:About Chinese Wu, Wiktionary:Chinese Wu transliteration or documentation for Module:wuu-pron, I'm not sure. Wiktionary:About Sinitic languages has lots of policies on Chinese (it's getting out-of-date).
BTW, I think all Chinese PoS need sorting, preferably by pint, otherwise, it's too hard to find anything in categories. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:35, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
@Jamesjiao:. I have romanised 禮物/礼物 as "2li veq" as per [4] and Wiktionary:About Chinese/Wu (li2 + meh/veh). Please join adding Wu pronunciations to Chinese entries. Now I know how but there are multiple readings. [5] has audio recordings. Thank you, Wyang for the resources. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Will indeed. I am familiarising myself with Wyang's romanisation table. JamesjiaoTC 22:20, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Does this look about right? 刑法. JamesjiaoTC 22:48, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
To me yes but I made a few mistakes before. (I've added Min Nan, Cantonese, Korean and Vietnamese to the entry) @Wyang:, does it look right? My simple approach to Wu transliteration (assume each character has only one reading) is 1. find wu-chinese transliterations, 2. note the tone of the first character, 3. check changes as per Wiktionary:About Chinese Wu document. Sometimes this approach works, sometimes it doesn't. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:38, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
I made some modifications to the romanisation. The first character is null initial followed by glide 'y', hence should have 'hh' initial. Second character is a checked-tone character - 'faq'. Wyang (talk) 23:46, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
Ah, yes, I haven't checked the edit history. wu-chinese gives "yin fah" but as per Wiktionary:About_Chinese/Wu#Resources initial "y" changes to "hh" and final "h" changes to "q". Question: why is it 3rd tone, if wu-chinese says it's the 1st tone for character 刑? [6] --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:56, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
It says it's the 1st MC tone (level - 平). MC level tone can have two consequences in Shanghainese - dark level (1) and light level (3). /ɦ/ is a voiced consonant, hence it is tone 3. Wyang (talk) 00:00, 12 May 2014 (UTC)


Please look over this new entry. Thanks. Michael Z. 2014-04-30 04:00 z

Thanks. I'll add translations and fix word stresses. It's банде́рівець (bandérivecʹ) in Ukrainian and банде́ровец (bandɛ́rovec) in Russian. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:07, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Interesting. In Canada it is always банде́рівець бандері́вець. Any idea how they say it in Lviv? Michael Z. 2014-04-30 14:55 z
@Mzajac: Is that a typo, you stressed it the exact same way. --WikiTiki89 14:57, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Oops, copy/paste error: бандері́вець is the only way I have heard it pronounced by Ukrainian Canadians and Galicians who left Ukraine during WWII. Michael Z. 2014-04-30 16:10 z 16:10, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
I don't know how they say it in Lviv but бандері́вець is a possibility in some dialects, due to Polish influences, I only heard банде́рівець and this pronunciation can be confirmed on the web (use quoted stressed string to search). Other Ukrainian words formed the same way are also stressed like this. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:26, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
A blogger insists that -рів-" should be stressed "...Ярош - президент "Тризуба" для бандерівців (наголос на "-рів-"!), а не для всієї України..." here. The comment says "... Yarosh - a president of Tryzub (Trident) for Banderites (stress is on "-рів-"!), not for the whole of Ukraine... "--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
@Mzajac: Do you also say "доля́р" for "dollar" in Canada? Modern Ukrainian is "до́лар". This might explain it. You guys speak older Ukrainian version.--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 21:08, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
They speak Ukrainian v19.4.x while Ukraine has upgraded to v20.1.4. --WikiTiki89 21:22, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
That's understandable but there were alternative forms in that version too, not necessarily official and wide-spread, as far as I can tell, e.g. класичний/клясичний, блок/бльок, ефір/етер. It's similar to Belarusian Taraškievica orthography, which is used by supporters of this orthography and pronunciation but hasn't gained universal acceptance. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:07, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Apparently, the so-called "Ха́рківський право́пис" was cancelled in 1933 as pro-Polish and nationalistic but is still used in overseas Ukrainian communities. I'll just add that Ukrainian is a dialect-continuum from East to West. At various points in time various accents and pronunciations were favoured. Poltava used to be the base. Now that Eastern Ukraine is very Russified, it's probably Lviv, which is the most distant from Russian and has lots of Polish and local words. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:25, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
Yup, a.k.a. w:Skrypnykivka, but Ukrainian Canadian publishing predates WWI, and the vocabulary is Galician. Post-WWII immigration probably has the most influence on urban Ukrainian in Canada, but the language also has some use from earlier immigrations, for example in rural areas of the Canadian Prairies. We say до́ляр/доля́ри, клясичний, бльок, авто (not машина), кошиківка and відбиванка for баскетбол and волейбол, and I suspect many of our casual words might be considered Lviv slang (кобіта, кнайпа, шинок, батяр). Sometimes surprised that what I assume to be completely Canadian terms are used by Ukrainians, like ка́тедж/ко́тедж (“cottage”), визнесмен (not sure about the spellings). To me, the use of Г for G stands out in standard Ukrainian (мітинг looks unpronounceable, which I would call a демонстрація. We might say either мі́тінґ or сходини for a meeting). Michael Z. 2014-05-02 01:22 z

Interesting. To me кобі́та (kobíta) is very Galician and a Polonism, most Ukrainians just use жі́нка (žínka). кошикі́вка (košykívka) and відбива́нка (vidbyvánka) are hardly used. As for loanwords from English, there are plenty of them, like коте́дж (kotédž), бізнесме́н (biznesmén), аутсо́рсінг (autsórsinh), дефо́лт (defólt), etc. /g/ is almost lost in Ukrainian but there is some revival but even when words are spelled with "ґ", people would pronounce "г". мі́тинг (mítynh) is a rally, mass demonstration but now also used as a business meeting. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:40, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Кобіта and кнайпа are uncommon slang; кобітки = “chicks”; жінка = “woman,” or colloquially “wife”; пані = “lady.” I wonder if пан/панови, па́ні/пані́, панна/панни are common in standard Uk. Is there a word for Ms./mizz? And of course the washroom is кльо́зет, and привіт may be starting to become as common as сервусMichael Z. 2014-05-02 16:48 z
пан, па́ні (indeclinable), панна never got completely out of use and now also official but they're a bit too formal. сервус is regional (West Ukrainian) and кльо́зет is dated (same category as клясичний). клозе́т is used. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 08:23, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

лакома кошка до рыбки, да в воду лезть не хочетсяEdit

Привет, may I bring this entry to your attention? Если бы вы могли потратить на этом несколько времени (исправить ошибки, добавить произношение), я был бы очень благодарен. --Pyprilescu (talk) 05:59, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. Adding pronunciation to phrases, especially long one is very cumbersome. People usually look up individual words but I made an exception today. I don't normally work much on the Russian wiki but you can ask them yourself. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:25, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
Template:thumbs up Thanks a lot, Anatoli, огромное спасибо! --Pyprilescu (talk) 14:17, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


Could you update {{zh-pron}}? It makes a red link unless it has a jyutping reading added to it, or so I noticed. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 08:06, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean the red link to Template:Pinyin-IPA? I moved it to Template:cmn-pron with all subtemplates by User:Wyang's request . It seems to have caused some problems. Waiting for his response at Template talk:cmn-pron. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 08:11, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


I trust that you did the right thing, but why did you rollback my edit to 柑橘? I've seen some complaints that Chinese listings are too often unnecessarily segregated with regards to its variants (Cantonese, Mandarin, Min Nan, etc.), but what is the standard? I always thought that Chinese listings were supposed to be this way, looking at most of the other listings. I don't think I've ever seen a Chinese section with a listing that said "regional Cantonese" in a Chinese section, unless it was "Translingual" instead of "Chinese." --WikiWinters (talk) 14:45, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi and welcome. I'd like to refer you to Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-04/Unified Chinese, which has changed the policy on Chinese. There are a lot of entries to be converted. As for the implementation, it's the pronunciation section that adds to Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. PoS categories. Context labels are used when, e.g. Cantonese sense is different from standard/common Chinese or when it's used only in that specific variety.
I planned to explain my reversal to you later. Thanks for addressing me directly. BTW, please update your Babel on your user page. For technical questions, please talk to @Wyang: but you can observe how entries are done in, e.g. Category:Chinese nouns, which is growing. Among them there are many of those that were Cantonese. When Cantonese, Min Nan, entries are converted and merged, the remaining Mandarin entries will be converted to L2 header Chinese by a bot. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:10, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done and Yes check.svg Done. I read the article you referred to me and I added the Babel templates to my page. Tell me if anything else needs to be done and I'll do it. --WikiWinters (talk) 19:43, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Variant pronunciations categoryEdit

Hi Anatoli, could you remind me whether Category:zh:Variant pronunciations or Category:cmn:Variant pronunciations is the correct category for variant pronunciations? Entries like 日期 are in both. And I'd like to clean up entries like 友誼, 因為, 蝸牛, etc. which are in the old category. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:16, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm a bit confused myself. We now have new zh categories for most cmn categories but this readings are only applicable for China/Taiwan Mandarin variants. Some Mandarin categories will have to stay after migration. I think they should be in Category:cmn:Variant pronunciations if we're talking about Mandarin variations. @Wyang: what do you think? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:04, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Neither. Language-code categories are topical, meaning that Category:zh:Variant pronunciations should contain Chinese words about "variant pronunciations" (which I doubt is useful). What you probably want is something like Category:Chinese variant pronunciations, Category:Mandarin variant pronunciations, Category:Chinese Mandarin variant pronunciations. --WikiTiki89 13:19, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree it should be in Category:Mandarin variant pronunciations or Category:Chinese Mandarin variant pronunciations. I wasn't involved in the original creation of these categories and was confused why we have Category:zh-cn:Variant Pronunciations‎ and Category:zh-tw:Variant Pronunciations‎ (originally "cmn"), which contained the same entries with different mainland China and Taiwanese tone patterns and other differences in pronunciation. Let's see if Wyang responds. There's a lot of entries to move. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:30, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Simplified / Traditionnal pair and pinyin variant with the new Chinese entries layoutEdit

Thanks for your advise about {{zh-usex}}. it will greatly help me.

I have a question about the new layout for Chinese entries. How to indicate the Simplified / Traditional character and pronouciation associated with a particular definition ? For example like what is done with the characters or . Apparently the {{zh-...}} templates don't take pinyin and traditional/simplified argument like the {{cm-...}} templates

Meihouwang (talk) 20:09, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi. Simplified / traditional variants are indicated the same way, using {{zh-hanzi-box}}, not in the header. The pronunciation is indicated only in {{zh-pron}}, also all PoS categorisations happens there. See . Monosyllabic entries are much more complicated and a few things still need to be discussed and agreed on. Any questions, ask me or User:Wyang. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:22, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
So character with different prononciation will have several {{zh-pron}} ? I am programming a chinsese dictionary and I used to parse Wiktionary data. I stored definition the same way as CC-CEDICT, ordored by Traditional/Simplified/Pinyin (see here for example [[7]]). But there is no standard way to link prononciation to definition in the new Chinese layout. The same for Traditional/Simplified pairs. Meihouwang (talk) 11:56, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Words/characters with different pronunciations for the same sense and the same SoP would use the same {temp|zh-pron}} and variants would be separated by commas. Toneless endings, erhua have a special parameters, so that those are generated automatically. A different pronunciation, which is also a different sense or different SoP would use a different {{zh-pron}}. Sorry if we caused you problems with your programming. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:51, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
The different pronunciations will be included in one {{zh-pron}} usage. See 血液. --kc_kennylau (talk) 13:00, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank for your awnser. Does the same apply to {{zh-hanzi-box}}? A different Traditional/Simplified pair with a different sense will use a different {{zh-hanzi-box}} ? Meihouwang (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Some categories to emptyEdit

Since I started working in Special:WantedCategories, there have been a few I left alone because, although I knew they were the result of bad wikitext, I had no idea what to do with the language sections in question. Unless I'm mistaken, the Chinese merger should make it easier to figure out what to do with these entries. In case you want to have a go at them, they're Category:Mandarin hanzis, Category:Min Nan hanzis and Category:Wu hanzis. There may be equivalents for one or two of the other lects, but since they don't really exist, the search can't find them. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 01:01, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand. Can you give a link to an existing category? Note that single-character (hanzi) entries will be addressed later. Our hands are full with the merger, which affects multicharacter entries first of all. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:05, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
If you click on the links, you'll see that the categories may not exist, but they have entries listed on their creation pages. Those entries contain wikitext with something like {{head|nan|hanzi}} which automatically generates the wikitext [[Category:Min Nan hanzis]]. What to do with such entries is a part of the whole Chinese merger issue, but if you're concentrating on the multi-character entries, these aren't a priority: although it would be nice to get rid of these misbegotten little critters, they've already been there for a while, so they can wait. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:37, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
I see, it's caused by {{head|cmn|hanzi}} type of headers used. Until hanzi entries are properly merged, one thing can be done with a bot, I think. Update all instances of "head|cmn|hanzi" (with nan, wuu, yue, etc. as the language code) to use {{zh-hanzi}} instead. See , which is better formatted, in my opinion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:51, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Problems with New TemplatesEdit

Hi Anatoli, I seem to be having a problem when I create a new template - the template link on an entry page doesn't show the template anymore - but when you click the link it goes to the template page. Here is the Ukrainian entry for два as an example. This has happened before with a recently created template.Vedac13 (talk)

It's working now - but it seems to be taking much longer than usual.Vedac13 (talk)

Several thingsEdit

Thank you --KoreanQuoter (talk) 07:57, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Good job, thanks! I've added IPA, past passive participles where exists and some cosmetic changes. The perfective form забоя́ться (zabojátʹsja) has the sense of beginning of "being afraid", while побоя́ться (pobojátʹsja) is simply a perfective equivalent of

боя́ться (bojátʹsja).

Biaspectual verbs need two conjugation tables, e.g. казни́ть (kaznítʹ). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't know Russian at all, but their pronunciations are all missing. --kc_kennylau (talk) 08:22, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Not all pronunciations are missing:). While IPA is important for any language, Russian is very phonetic and its pronunciation is mostly predictable with a small number of documented exceptions. One needs to know Russian pronunciation rules, sound changes. Word stress and spelling out "ё" (most adult native writer use "е" instead, which has a different reading) is all one usually needs to pronounce Russian correctly (+ a small number of exceptions, which follow some pattern). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:40, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Atitarev. I like to get some "clearances" to make more verb forms for Russian. It might be cumbersome, but this is what I like to do here. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 12:45, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
I won't stop you from making verb or noun forms but it would be much more useful for you and for Wiktionary if you work with lemmas - make new word entries, not their forms, which can be found from declension/conjugations tables. It may be more challenging and error-prone but it's better still.
User:Matthias Buchmeier/en-ru-a, User:Matthias Buchmeier/en-ru-b, etc. Shows how many red links there are (some translations are bad or SoP). [[8]] (after 2000 has red links as well). Please make some more words, I will help you. You can use [9] to get correct senses, Russian Wiktionary to get grammar info and consult anyone here. IPA is a bonus - the main thing is semantics and grammar, correct basic format, word stress, IMO in any Russian entry. You can make good entries but it's up to you. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:54, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
I try to make entries on Russian verbs occasionally. Does it help? --KoreanQuoter (talk) 13:05, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Of course it does. You're welcome to send me a list of words to check. BTW, I've just made another Korean entry - 질량 :) but I'm using accelerated methods. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:09, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
BTW I prefer editing and adding entries on Russian verbs mostly because the Russian verbs in the Korean Wiktionary are usually "pathetically" poor. I try to improve a lot of entries in the Korean Wiktionary and the easiest way to improve them is to focus on the verbs. And it's much easier for me to track my progress if I do it in both Korean and English Wiktionaries. It's my best way despite I am exceptionally busy in real life. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 13:19, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
And it's more useful to add lemma forms with a full conjugation table, rather than individual forms, which are visible in the lemma tables. It's not just Korean Wiktionary, which is poor with Russian verbs. Russian has quite a complicated conjugation and declension systems, so you either have to develop a module like was done here or a large number of templates, learn conjugations and stress patterns/type or add each form manually (like old style templates here). Eg дви́гаете (dvígajete) is a form of дви́гать (dvígatʹ), which has a full conjugation table and "дви́гаете" appears there and can be found through a search. Besides, if someone writes a bot to generate those forms automatically, then you'll see that you wasted your time ... --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:29, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
I know I'm wasting my time. But I have to waste my time because the Korean Wiktionary is figuratively dead. Non-active moderators, communication issues, and no activity in adding non-Korean entries besides me. And my main base of operation is the Korean Wiktionary. And I usually contribute once per 1-2 weeks and it's easier to contribute verb forms instead. Of course, I apologize that I'm not being productive. I wish I could help more..... --KoreanQuoter (talk) 13:39, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
You can try exporting {{ru-verb-1-pf}} and {{ru-verb-1-impf}} to the Korean Wiktionary and full verbs, not just inflected forms. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Chippewa LanguageEdit

In Module:languages/data3/c, can you add the Chippewa Language, code ciw, script Canadian Aboriginal Syllabics, code Cans, family alg. Thanks. DerekWinters (talk) 21:00, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Chippewa not a distinct language from Ojibwe, so you should use its code, 'oj'. (Why some of the other varieties of Ojibwe have not also been merged into 'oj', I am not sure... possibly only because no-one has raised the issue, Wiktionary being a work in progress and all.) FYI, this and other language considerations are documented on WT:LANGTREAT. It can be good to check that page when considering a 'missing' code, to see if it has been intentionally excluded. Cheers, - -sche (discuss) 21:32, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
-sche is probably right, I can't comment on Chippewa Language. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

You have new emailEdit

RT Wyang (talk) 23:37, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

In case you missed it...Edit

Here is a little ... er... love-note from a big... fan. ;) Chuck Entz (talk) 00:57, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Zhuyin hasn't been high priority, I might just block him and fix them later. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад)
Probably pointless, since I've seen similar edit comments recently that had to be the same person using another IP. For what it's worth, I find the sheer volume of over-the-top verbal abuse over something as trivial as using slashes with pinyin to be pretty funny. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:20, 24 May 2014 (UTC)


After doing about 200 edits, it appears the Min Nan, Cantonese, Wu etc. pure-hanzi multisyllabic ones have all been dealt with. I'm checking if any of them still contains the topolect heading. Judging from the nil result after scanning about 1/6 of them, I think we can have a celebration prematurely. :) Wyang (talk) 12:45, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Yeah! Congratulations! Now, there are many thousands Mandarin terms, some with non-standard pronunciation. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:52, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

One word for youEdit

Here's one word I came across that you could give a Wu transliteration to, 寫真 / 写真. You could find the aforementioned IPA transliteration in its Chinese Wiktionary pages. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:43, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

And here's the Wu IPA reading: /ɕiᴀ³³ z̻ə̆ɲ⁴⁴/ --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:54, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Did I get this transliteration right? I guess so. 4xia zen --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 23:35, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm not yet comfortable with transliteration/IPA for Wu/Shanghainese. I'm using scanned dictionary Shanghaihua dacidian sometimes - searching there takes time. Wu mini-dictionary online, the tones are not always right - and I don't always get the right tones when converting. User:Wyang is best to check for this. What is your source, anyway? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:57, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
The Chinese language Wiktionary --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 11:54, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
It's 2xia tsen. Wyang (talk) 07:45, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Wyang, I could display both transliterations. Is that okay? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 14:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

A weird editing errorEdit

In this edit (diff) you somehow manged to unintentionally duplicate a large swath of the English section. I did my best to consolidate the duplicates without eliminating the edits that came afterwards, but you might want to check that I didn't wipe out any changes that you actually intended to make. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 17:44, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing this. I don't know what happened there. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:47, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Cantonese readings of Edit

Isn't that supposed to be either waa2 or waa6? Or is there a third reading like the one you are using? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 02:32, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Oops. Thanks for spotting. I don't know how it happened. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:40, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Ukrainian stubsEdit

Hi Anatoli. I've created about 100 for start. Please see here and check for possible issues :) --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 23:11, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Ivan. All entries look good but I don't know what will happen to your idea with such opposition. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:14, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
haters gonna hate.. I'll proceed in small batches for uk and sh, leaving empty definitions only for terms I can't figure out or verify the exact translation. I have two huge databases for ru as well BTW, but it's not on my immediate radar. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:17, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
I agree but... Perhaps we should limit the download. I'll comment on the BP discussion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
  • 10-20% of these words (taken from corpora) are not listed in any dictionary, and translating them can be challenging. I'll switch to frequency lists after finishing the current batch. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 22:04, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
  1. Thank you. I have been adding translations as I was busy with Chinese and Russian but I will do translations from Ukrainian, just can't promise how often and how many :). Using frequency lists sounds great. Do you have them? It would be more motivating and easy for others to join the efforts. I can definitely consider doing the same for Russian words, even if you don't add inflections. {{ru-pron-auto}} is not done yet but is promising and one needs to cater for exceptions, variants in pronunciations (to do). User:Wyang is progressing quite well with Module:ru-pron. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:50, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
    There are several frequency lists for Ukrainian available, and I even have a lemmatizer so it's no problem. First nouns, then verbs and adjectives, and then other languages. I didn't actually plan to focus on this in particular, but the vocal opposition has motivated me :) --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 22:54, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
    OK. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:56, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Removal of translingual definitionsEdit

Is it a consensus that we put nothing on the definition lines in the translingual section? --kc_kennylau (talk) 04:26, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

That's what me and Wyang do. The translingual sections has been discussed multiple times, AFAIK but there is not much consensus and not much attention either. Nobody seems to care but they confuse users, if they don't match language sections. Many translingual sections have definitions for the lack of definitions in Mandarin, etc. sections. I only recently added definitions to , . You can see what state single-characters are in now. The purpose of translingual sections is not semantic, it's not a language - stroke order, etc. Definitions should be in language sections. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:37, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
To provide a bit of background info (for kenny): early in Wiktionary's history, bots created stub entries for a lot of Chinese characters by copying from other databases; these databases included some vague "definitions", which the bots put into the ==Translingual== section because they weren't able to tell which actual language sections to put them into. This is why some characters' translingual sections have definitions. Whenever it is possible for a human editor to move the definitions into specific language sections, my opinion and my understanding of past discussions is that doing so is desirable. For slightly more information, see Talk:佦. - -sche (discuss) 19:32, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I don't see any quick solution to missing definitions in Mandarin, Cantonese, etc. Now, with the merger, some of this will be solved but there's a lot of work. User:Wyang suggests using ===Definitions===. This may not be perfect long term (IMHO) but using this header, all missing Chinese definitions could be imported (or rather moved) from ===Translingual=== sections. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:41, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Posting in EnglishEdit

I would like to ask you to post in English whenever you post to multiple editors something that looks like soliciting opinions or input to a discussion. I generally oppose posts to talk pages in any other language but English, but in the mentioned scenario it is even more important. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:00, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion but I decline. I have nothing to hide, these are not private talks and I use the language I want. If you're curious, you can use Google Translate or something. You can't impose what language people use, try making a rule and see what happens. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:07, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
Google translate is generally unreliable. I used Google translate on the messages you posted and it seems you asked in Russian some people to join a Beer parlour discussion. I found nothing wrong with the communication. Nonetheless, I think it discourteous to post these kinds of things in Russian on English Wiktionary, since such posts cannot be readily understood without help of unreliable tools. There is no "rule" or policy forbidding such posts, AFAIK, but I think that is a matter of civility and courtesy, recognizing that he who has nothing to hide has no good reason to post in a language that other editors do not understand. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:14, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
That's only your opinion. I disagree. It was in Ukrainian, not Russian. You can raise an alarm in your style in the Beer parlour, smth. like - Alert! Atitarev is soliciting people to support generating definitionless entries and it's not in English!!! And if there's no policy or rule, please leave and stop bothering me.--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:21, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
There are not just policies and rules, there is also courtesy and British queueing. But I quit this page before I get accused of disruptive edits and harassment, since I find "if there's no policy or rule, please leave and stop bothering me" quite threatening. --Dan Polansky (talk)

Re: Hanzi sections, pronunciationsEdit

Moved to User_talk:Bumm13#Hanzi_sections.2C_pronunciations. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:zh-pron and Wade-Giles romanizationEdit

I'm adjusting okay so far to the new unified Chinese formatting for the most part. One thing I'm not seeing in Template:zh-pron is the option for adding the older Wade-Giles romanization for Mandarin. Wade-Giles isn't used as much anymore but is still found frequently in older texts and is still preferred by many Chinese linguistics experts in academia. It'd be really good to have the ability to automatically (or manually) convert from Hanyu pinyin to Wade-Giles. This page is good for showing most of the conversions from Hanyu pinyin to Wade-Giles (doesn't use IPA charts, though). Bumm13 (talk) 03:25, 6 June 2014 (UTC)


Este În regulă, it is all right, este un cuvânt "multi-sens"ǃ BAICAN XXX

Apologies, I accidentally reverted your edit but then reverted back, if you haven't noticed :-) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:21, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Arabic entries to checkEdit

Hi Anatoli! You seem to be the most proficient Arabic-speaker/-knower who's still active here, since User talk:ZxxZxxZ seems to be away. Could you take a look at يجري and يسبحون and فلك and الصمد and بحسب? I found them as I was going through old, neglected {{attention}}-tagged entries. There's a mismatch between the header (noun) and the headword line template (adjective). - -sche (discuss) 19:06, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done - entries had a few issues, الصمد turned into a redirect, it's just a word with a definite article (Will I be considered deletionist?). I'm not proficient, though. You can also check with Mahmudmasri or Stephen Brown. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:52, 15 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! I forgot about Mahmud, since he wasn't listed in Category:User ar. - -sche (discuss) 21:23, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

tone sandhiEdit

The Mandarin example given seems to contain an error. Shouldn't it be Ní hǎo ma, not Ní háo ma? ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:31, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

You're right. Changed accordingly. --kc_kennylau (talk) 07:34, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Replying on Talk:tone sandhi --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:05, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Reason for creating PinyinEdit

I see you sometimes create Pinyin entries, where Pinyin is a romanization for Chinese. Since you appear to dislike romanization entries, I wonder: why do you go out of your way to create romanization entries yourself? --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:45, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't really dislike romanisation entries, I just don't see the need to have them for most languages. Hanyu pinyin and Hepburn rōmaji are two standards that were adopted for Mandarin Chinese and Japanese a while ago and they make red links - meaning an entry is missing where there could be an entry. Even if I don't create them, someone may. I don't really go out of my way - it takes me only two clicks with accelerated creation method but pinyin and romaji is one of the ways to maintain homophones. They (also Gothic) are also protected by the vote. The current vote for Sanskrit doesn't mention a specific standard of romanisation, e.g. IAST, just anything "attested". Besides, languages and scripts of India seem to be in danger due to excessive use of romanisation and English instead of native scripts and languages. Some proponents suggest that Sanskrit is often written in Latin, so I see the proposed method as not really indices or soft redirects to native script entries but an alternative to Devanagari or its gradual replacement. If it passes, I'll respect it but I don't approve it in the current state. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:25, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Пу́тин хуйло́!Edit

Hi, if you need material for 'Пу́тин хуйло́!', just look for these words on YouTube, you'll find quite a lot ! For instance whole soccer stadions shouting it. Just watch and enjoy ! Best greetings. 13:30, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

I've seen them, they don't meet the requirements for CFI or references, though :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:39, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Module error in 七月Edit

Hi, your edit here caused a module error. --Z 17:44, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks and welcome back! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:04, 24 June 2014 (UTC)


Hi, why did you delete 既成事実? At WT:RFD#既成の事実 it was mentioned, but not enlisted for deletion. Whym (talk) 23:29, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Restored, sorry. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:31, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

A concernEdit

As the first person I could think of who's familiar with Turkish, I thought I'd ask you to look at my comments at User talk:Brainy J#Turkish and either address my concerns or let me know why I'm off base. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 19:01, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be right but I don't know enough to comment, sorry.--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:57, 27 June 2014 (UTC)
You're right, Chuck. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:06, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Min Dong in zh-pronEdit

Are we going to modify {{zh-pron}} to include Min Dong categories? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 03:20, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

I hope User:Wyang will do it. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:24, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
Added. Wyang (talk) 12:11, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

честь (глагол)Edit

Разве прошедшее время не "чла", "чло", "чли"? Как поправить таблицу? --WikiTiki89 02:19, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Исправил, спасибо. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:25, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

科學, 科学Edit

Is there a special reason you added simplified forms in the derived forms for 科學 and vice versa for 科学? Doesn't that defeat the whole point of having separate entries for simp and trad forms? For the past many years we have only listed words in the script the entry is in, right? ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:19, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

You're right. It's better to list terms in the same script. Feel free to remove the other script, although / is a sign, which is used to show both. It's also easier to maintain both trad. and simpl. forms without a lot of conversion work. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:27, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
Why don't we keep the entire content at one place and enable all the trad-simp conversions in quotes, terms, etc. on that page? Wyang (talk) 05:35, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
We will all have to discuss this in a group. This idea has merits but I personally haven't made up my mind whether we should do it. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:39, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
I'm going to edit those entries now so simp is with simp and trad with trad. If you wizzes in come up with an elegant solution that would be great, but for now we may as well make sure that these entries are designed the same as 99% of all the other ones. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:30, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


If you unprotect the page I'll make the necessary changes. DTLHS (talk) 00:46, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, please! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:51, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Done. DTLHS (talk) 00:54, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
Thanks heaps! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:00, 14 July 2014 (UTC)


I tried to edit your user page to remove the deleted babel template, but the system automatically classed my edit as harmful for no reason (seriously somebody needs to get rid of that stupid user page filter). Template:User zh-3 has been deleted, just to let you know, and on your user page it tries to call a deleted template. It's your choice if you want to delete it or not, but I was just going to let you know in case you didn't already notice. Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 06:52, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

It's some kind of double-redirect or something, since I'm not using {{User zh-3}} but {{User cmn-3}}. I have restored the redirect, anyway. It may need to be a template on its own, since zh is a valid language code again. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:00, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Maybe we should bring a discussion about this to the grease pit or something. Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 07:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
But now it just repeats cmn-3 on your babel! Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 19:44, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
It doesn't repeat, it shows only once. I'm fine with that. Feel free to open a GP discussion, though. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:05, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Two cmn-3s. On your user page. Rædi Stædi Yæti {-skriv til mig-} 23:24, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

OK, I got it. This should be fixed and I'm sure it will, just can't be bothered about GP right now. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:35, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Burmese basic vocabularyEdit

Hi, do you remember where you got this list from? I'm really curious who thought that "Boston" and "Chicago" belong to the basic vocabulary of Burmese. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 01:55, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I think it was from [10]. The list needs attention of course. I only imported it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:38, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Of course; I wasn't holding you personally responsible for it! But now that I know it's originally a list of English words for Burmese speakers to learn, it makes sense that it includes placenames in the English-speaking world. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:16, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Recovering stress marks from Cyrillic transliterationsEdit

(Also pinging User:Wikitiki89 and User:CodeCat)

While I was working on orphaning {{impf}} and {{pf.}}, I noticed that there are many "hybrid" headword lines in Bulgarian verb entries — i.e. headword lines that put some of the information inside the headword template, and some next to it. Like so:

{{bg-verb|tr=izsícham|a=impf}}, [[изсека]] (izseká) {{pf.}}

I decided to integrate the complementary aspect verb into the template call. The problem is, this template does not accept a transliteration argument. Integrating transliteration into the template might be tricky, and I am not sure if desirable; but simply removing transliteration would remove information about stress, which is something I would rather avoid. So I decided to write a module which recovers stress marks from the transliteration and applies them to the Cyrillic. But then I realised that I do not remember us actually using stress marks for Bulgarian.

Can you take a look at it? Tell me if the output is okay, whether we need this at all, can I go use it? I guess something similar could be useful for Russian.

Keφr 23:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I made a bot script to do something like this for Russian a while ago. It was crude but it worked. Basically, what it did was go over each vowel in turn and put an accent on it, then transliterate it using Wiktionary's transliteration. If the output of that matched the given translation, then replace the headword with the one it guessed correctly. —CodeCat 23:12, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
As I understand it, the convention for Bulgarian is to use a grave accent rather than an acute one (as in Russian) to indicate stress. At any rate, that's what I do in translation tables when I remove the redundant transliterations and put the stress mark directly on the Bulgarian word itself. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 23:19, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
(After multiple E/C) Thank you both. Module:User:Kephir/untranslit looks good. The only thing, which needs fixing is "ъ" uses ̀ for stress, not ́, so the stress mark should be like this тръ̀гна (trǎ̀gna). Also, User:Bogorm made a list of imperfective/imperfective verbs here: User:Bogorm/Verben, which should be applied to the new template. Bulgarian doesn't need manual transliteration, if terms have stress marks. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:21, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
@Angr, grave is only used for ъ, other vowels use acute. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:22, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Quite strange. Why so? Keφr 23:34, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
WT:BG TR has this, I only added it there as it was the status quo. I don't know why but I noticed that if I want to find a Bulgarian word with stressed "ъ" on the Web, I have to use the grave accent, not acute. User:Bogorm may know the reason but he is usually not very active. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:39, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
Also… if ъ is supposed to have an grave accent, then why the transliteration has an acute? Module:bg-translit contains no accent conversion, for one. Keφr 08:48, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Accents are not converted, Russian or Bulgarian, they are simply retained. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:54, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, yes, and so they are in my back-converter. Are they supposed to be changed to graves now? Keφr 10:51, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Yes, please. E.g. it should be тръ̀гна (trǎ̀gna), not тръ́гна (trǎ́gna) when "ъ" is stressed. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:55, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Just wanted to point out that in Bulgarian the grave is not only used on ъ̀, but also on а̀ and я̀ when they are stressed and pronounced the same as ъ̀. --WikiTiki89 21:55, 2 August 2014 (UTC)
In that case, we are in trouble. It definitely lacks consistency. There's no sufficient online dictionaries with this type of info and no committed Bulgarian editor. Neither WT:BG TR nor WT:ABG doesn't mention this. Occasional correct stresses (grave on а̀ and я̀) are not good enough. We should adopt more consistency, IMO. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:27, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
I've checked some Bulgarian dictionaries and apparently they simply indicate all stress with the grave accent. Now that I think about it, I cannot even remember where I read this rule that differentiates the grave from the acute. --WikiTiki89 13:42, 4 August 2014 (UTC)
There is a similar situation with Russian verbs, which I am going to fix the same way. I adapted the module for Russian. It looks okay to me, but can you also take a look? Keφr 20:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
They all look good, thanks! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 20:40, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
Here is something that bothers me. A lot of Russian verb headwords have one aspect specified, and list verbs not only of the opposite aspect, but of the same aspect as well in the headword line. Like:
{{ru-verb|оберну́ться|pf|impf=обора́чиваться}}, {{l|ru|обёртываться}} {{pf.}}
This makes no sense. Either they are synonyms, in which case they should be listed in the synonyms section, or they are some variants with subtle semantic differences (semelfactive vs iterative or such), in which case they should be probably described in more detail, not just listed in the headword line. Keφr 21:18, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
оберну́ться (obernútʹsja) was incorrect - оборачиваться and обёртываться are both imperfectives. Fixed now. Let me know, if you find similar ones. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:29, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
My script currently fails to correctly process: мыть, е́здить, приве́тствовать, пуга́ть, стеба́ться, по́лзать, плати́ть, относи́ть, ка́пать, ска́тывать, везти́, рыть, компенси́ровать, меша́ть, зимова́ть, ма́зать, грызть, пу́тать, дрема́ть, интегри́роваться, руга́ть, мелька́ть, сёрбать, по́льзоваться, трясти́, посади́ть, гото́вить, лиди́ровать, пожа́ть. For reasons which may not necessarily be related to this. Keφr 22:00, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
OK, I'll take a look at them when I have a chance. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:06, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
I've checked all, some with no changes in the header. I saw your "hmm" edit summaries. Yes, there are multiple forms, like pf2, pf3, etc. I have put all the forms into the header, removing all comments. Labels like "semelfactive", etc. will go to the appropriate entries. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:11, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
[[следить]] and [[пить]] also look like this. I will also leave [[тащить]] to you. Keφr 07:14, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Done. You seem to have not read to my comment about Belarusian verbs. They don't need transliteration but occasionally missing stress marks. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

There are still 165 entries transcluding {{impf}} and {{pf.}} with which my script is unable to deal. They will have to be eventually fixed manually; I think you will want to look at them. Most are Russian verb translations with misformatted qualifier labels. Other use {{impf}} and {{pf.}} in definitions and usage examples (not sure if that is wrong). And there are three Arabic verbs using {{ar-verb (old)}}, which I have no idea how to convert. For now, I will probably just change these entries to use {{g}}.

Keφr 08:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

The list is too big and translations are lower priority for me. I'll do Russian entries over some time. For Arabic verbs, I think we need a new type in {{conjugation of}} those forms are imperfect - imperfect indicative 3rd person singular. E.g. كَتَبَ (kataba, to write, he wrote) has a form يَكْتُبُ (yaktubu, he writes) (imperfect indicative 3rd person singular). Arabic misses a lot of templates. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

{{impf}} and {{pf}} are misused with Arabic, they are not imperfective/perfective but imperfect perfect. Perfect is the lemma for Arabic verbs, imperfect is a verb form. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:28, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Actually they are imperfective and perfective, not imperfect and perfect (the perfective may be referred to as perfect, but the imperfective certainly cannot be referred to as imperfect). But still (unlike in Slavic languages) they are just forms of the same verb and we use the perfective as the lemma. --WikiTiki89 11:46, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Some Russian verbs in your list must be false positives - there's no problem with учить, связать, they use multiple pf, pf2, etc., which are correct. You may want to update your list. Perhaps, you could also use User:Kephir/gadgets/xte.js a bit more intelligently, analysing the result, you seem to fully rely on its conversion. There are many legitimate SoP translations you leave with {{t-check}}. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:40, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
I am not that comfortable judging which Russian translations are mere SOPs. With учить and связать it is not the headword which is the problem, but the definition line: I think using a bare {{g|impf}}/{{g|pf}} and a link is not a very good way to convey aspect pairing for specific senses, but I have no idea what would be better. Keφr 08:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't know that {{g|impf}}/{{g|pf}} can't be used that way. There should be a way to indicate, which perfective/imperfective form is applicable to senses, I'd hate to use {{qualifier}} or plain text. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
Well, they can, but should they? For Polish I usually resorted to multiple headword lines. Which too looks rather ugly, but as I said, I have no good idea. Keφr 09:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Вариации ударенияEdit

Тебе больше нравиться этот вариант, или этот? Мне кажется, что в любом случае в headword-е лучше повторять слово, а в ссылках не обязательно. --WikiTiki89 15:16, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Первый. Думаю и основное слово должно иметь одну форму "ба́лова́ть" с двумя ударениями. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
А я думаю, что лучше чтобы основное слово порвторялось "балова́ть or ба́ловать", просто чтобы яснее было (CodeCat сейчас скоро исправит модуль, чтобы транслитерация работала в таком варианте). В ссылках не так важно, поэтому я про них и спрашивал. --WikiTiki89 01:58, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
Форма "ба́лова́ть" больше совпадает с другими языками здесь, напр. с украинским, в случае с большим количество вариантов напр. совершенного вида. род. падежа или множ. числа это будет особенно важно, например: апо́стро́ф - апо́стро́фа, апо́стро́фы вместо апо́строф or апостро́ф - апо́строфа or апостро́фа, апо́строфы or апостро́фы --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:10, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

television showEdit

Pursuant to the RfD discussion, I have restored television show. As you proposed this restoration, I would suggest that you make the necessary effort to improve this entry through the addition of citations supporting the definitions provided, translation tables, and any other materials that would demonstrate its value to the corpus, in the event that it is challenged in the future. Cheers! bd2412 T 19:58, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

I've made some improvements but I could use help with citations. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:20, 1 August 2014 (UTC)
I'd be glad to help, but I'm leaving shortly for Wikimania, and will be out of pocket until it's all over. I'll see if any of the other supporters of restoration will pitch in. bd2412 T 12:39, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

вонять в украинском и белорусскомEdit

Я ни в каком украинском словаре не смог найти слово воня́ти (vonjáty), и ни в каком белорусском словаре не смог найти ваня́ць (vanjácʹ). Поэтому я их не добавлял в *vonjati. --WikiTiki89 17:47, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

Я так и понял. Оба слова редкие и возможно рассматриваются как русицизмы. воня́ти (vonjáty) есть по крайней мере, в одном словаре, обозначен как архаизм, с белорусским сложнее, но я часто не могу найти даже совершенно правильные слова или формы. Белорусский можно наверное отнести к языкам со слабой документацией. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:27, 4 August 2014 (UTC)


Hey Anatoli, when you get time can you have a look at my formatting for the etymology here? I didn't know how to add in the Japanese kanji. Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:21, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

There was no problem there but I made some changes and added Cantonese from [11] --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:54, 7 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks mate. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:02, 9 August 2014 (UTC)


Hi, did I do anything right with that Korean verb? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:02, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

It's fine. This is a regular verb. Need to watch for irregular verbs (|irreg=y in the header and conjugation) and long vowels in the pronunciation. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:25, 9 August 2014 (UTC)


When you get time, can you fix the formatting of the example sentence I just added? I couldn't remember how we format them nowadays. Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:20, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:26, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Is there any way we can get change it so you don't have to click on "quotations" to see it? I don't think it's necessary to hide them like that. They're simple examples sentences that are useful and don't take up much room. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:15, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree, especially with single usage examples, it's better to have them expanded by default. I can't do it, though, User:Wyang could help. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:11, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
OK. Thanks. Take a look at my changes at 事故. I think it looks great. If only we could get it expanded by default, it would be perfect. :) ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:12, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, good job! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:16, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Debotting MewBotEdit

FYI, I have removed your posts to Wiktionary:Votes/2014-08/Debotting MewBot, since the vote has not stared yet. My intention was absolutely not to silence you; if you need to make a comment about the vote before the vote started, I would propose you use the talk page of the vote. --Dan Polansky (talk) 04:56, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

OK, no need to explain, I saw your edit summary. I didn't pay attention to the vote start date but I saw an existing vote and just voted. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:07, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

прощаться (not a) passive form of прощатьEdit

Well the matter is horribly old and there will be much ado about nothing, but I can't state it otherwise. You see it is actually quite fundamental, because I believe there are no passive forms of words in Russian as well as in most languages. But I'm not a linguist, nor considerably know Russian, so if you don't fancy the matter you may very well stop reading here... otherwise it will be some load of it.
The heading is a link to the thing.
Passive is a... voice as they call it in English, and as I hoped Wikipedia states that however there are such languages having inflected forms specific for passive its rather not the case in (case of) Russian. Although one of two Russian types of passive is called "inflectional", and this is probably the type of the phrase "Это ему прощается". Now, unfortunately I don't actually know what the phrase mean, but think something like He is excused for that (once or more or less frequently) or He is forgiven that. Passive English, but passive VOICE, a sentence in passive voice, not any verb. Furthermore it appears as it wasn't passive in Russian at all. Translating directly this excuses itself for him only with for him in the middle.
Concluding, forgiven is not a passive form. It is a participle, a form of one verb used in forming passive voice. The same could refer to прощается but at this point I must obviously be very uncertain so I bid for you considering the matter again and maybe changing the description yet to "reflexive"... for formal causes as well, прощать + ся.--Trombek Bombek (talk) 12:17, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

This is how passive is formed in Russian, it's a well known fact, even if passive -ся/-сь forms coincide with reflexives - Рабо́чие стро́ят дома́ (active) - Дома́ стро́ятся рабо́чими (passive). The other method is by using passive participles -стро́ящийся (present) стро́ившийся (past). There are various references for this but I am not sure I need to provide them, since you don't seem to speak Russian well. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:33, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
No I won't understand Russian texts, yet. Only my point was - are those really passive forms or just some forms used in constructing passive voice, like participles in English (or Polish by the way).--Trombek Bombek (talk) 12:54, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
First of all, you should ask yourself what passive voice is. Like in English, it is about the meaning of forms. E.g. "is + being + built" are not passive forms in English per se but "a house is being built" has a passive sense. The verb проща́ться (proščátʹsja) is categorised as reflexive, so are all verbs with -ся/-сь. Not all reflexive verbs can have passive meanings, like улыба́ться (ulybátʹsja, to smile) (there is no verb "улыбать" and it is reflexive only in the way it's conjugated, not by its semantics) but those that can be passive, benefit from being labeled so. Usually -ся/-сь verbs are simply marked as reflexive in dictionaries or references but verbs formed from transitive verbs with -ся/-сь are not only reflexive but also passive, that's understood by native speakers. You can open a discussion at WT:TEA to find out what makes passive verbs in Slavic languages. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:10, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


I've implemented all weaknesses of forms I through VI and Iq/IIq. There is a template {{ar-conj}} that uses the module. It takes the form as the first argument followed by the radicals and then past/non-past vowels (for form I). It automatically determines the weakness from the radicals but you can override this to force interpretation as a sound verb. There's still forms VII to X to do as well as individual override parameters and changes for hamzated verbs -- I've documented thoroughly how to do this in the comment at the top of the module. If you're willing to help work on any of this it would be greatly appreciated. Benwing (talk) 18:59, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I could help if I have time later. May I recommend instead of implementing irregular verbs in the module itself to just allow the stem bases to be overridden in the template. --WikiTiki89 19:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Great stuff, Benwing! Yes, it would be better to handle irregular verbs in the module itself. There are very few pure irregular verbs. Apart from hamzated, have you also covered assimilated, weak, (two(2) types of) defective verbs, geminated, doubly-weak and quadrilateral verbs? Could you demonstrate how you use your template? Also, on my wish list is categorisations by form and type of exceptions, transitive/intransitive. I may help later when I get more time for this but I'd like to familiarise myself and do some small testing. (My focus is currently on Chinese Mandarin and Korean.) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
When I said irregular, I was referring to #3 in the comment at the top, i.e. the ones that are irregular even after accounting for weak roots and everything. --WikiTiki89 02:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I think, it may be better to handle true irregular verbs, the ones that suppletive forms, which are uncommon and won't benefit the module (and can't be reused) with special parameters. Or have a full paradigm for selected verbs. Which verbs do you have in mind? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I do handle assimilated, hollow, defective, geminate and assimilated+defective verbs, as well as all the variations of form I defective, hollow, assimilated, etc. verbs. Hamzated verbs aren't handled yet. The best way to do that is to postprocess the forms to convert hamza-on-the-line to the proper variant. Examples of how to use the template are found in the documentation for {{ar-conj}}. There's a detailed description of the work needing to be done in a long comment at the top of the module. This comment also includes a list of about ten irregular verbs that are irregular beyond the normal weaknesses. This includes things like 'akala/ya'kulu "to eat" with irregular imperative kul, and ḥayya(ḥayiya)/yaḥyā "to live" and a few others. Allowing the stems to be overridden is possible but will probably be more work than handling the irregular verbs directly in the module, given the small number of such verbs. BTW categorization by form and weakness should already be present as well as transitive/intransitive. It could definitely do with testing; I've tried to check the conjugations as I create them but I can always have gotten something wrong. Benwing (talk) 03:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Forms VII through X handled in all weaknesses except Form IX defective, which is extremely rare (only one root seems to form such a verb, from 'a9mā "blind", and its forms are variable and not really well-defined). I'm working on the hamza stuff. Benwing (talk) 08:38, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
For hamzated verbs, I think the best way is to use a standalone hamza (ء) to construct the form, and then postprocess all hamzas. @Anatoli, Re "Which verbs do you have in mind?": The ones listed under #3 in the comment (verbs with the roots س ء ل (s-ʾ-l), ر ء ي (r-ʾ-y), ح ي ي (ḥ-y-y)). @Benwing, are the imperatives kul, ḵuḏ, mur, etc. really irregular, i.e. are there any verbs with hamza as the first radical that have uʾCuC as the imperative (in fact the double hamza in such cases would elide to ūCuC)? --WikiTiki89 10:50, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89: As for hamzas, that's exactly what I just implemented. Those imperatives are indeed irregular; all remaining verbs have normal imperatives, e.g. ʾamala/yaʾmulu "to hope" with imperative ūmul, ʾasara/yaʾsiru "to capture" with imperative īsir, ʾamina/yaʾmanu with imperative īman etc. Benwing (talk) 18:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
@Benwing: Just out of curiosity in case you know, how are ūmul and īman spelled in Arabic script, and what happens when they are preceded by a vowel? --WikiTiki89 18:57, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89: They are spelled with an initial alif without a hamza in John Mace "Arabic Verbs". What happens when preceded by a vowel is a very good question. I would guess a hamza appears, because the assimilation is behaving as if there were an initial hamza. Benwing (talk) 19:16, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
@Benwing: What I mean is are they spelled امل and امن or اومل and ايمن? As for the preceding vowel, would it be something like -ha ʾmul, -hu ʾmul, -hi ʾmul, spelled (I'm guessing) ـهَ أْمُلْ‎, ـهُ ٱؤْمُلْ‎, ـهِ ٱئْمُلْ? --WikiTiki89 19:42, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

@Wikitiki89: Spelled like اومل and ايمن. With a preceding vowel I'm thinking -ha ʾūmul, -hu ʾūmul, -hi ʾūmul etc. Benwing (talk) 19:45, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Somehow I find that unlikely. --WikiTiki89 19:47, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89: You might be right -- it might revert to a form with a hamza in it. I'm not sure. Benwing (talk) 19:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

發生 use exampleEdit

I'm not sure if the use example of Chinese word 發生 is grammatically correct or not. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:15, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

It's correct. I have fixed it a bit. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:30, 4 September 2014 (UTC)
@Lo Ximiendo: Word by word translation: 我 (I) 决不 (absolutely not) 对 (towards, versus, as for) 发生 的 (which happens/happened (attributive clause)) 事情 (matter) 负责 (to be responsible). Does the grammar make sense to you? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:11, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

cmn-noun or zh-nounEdit

Hi Atitarev. You have made a template with the name zh-noun. The documentation page is empty and the page Wiktionary:About_Chinese have nothing about it either. Is it supposed to replace cmn-noun? Can I read about it somewhere on wiktionary? Can you make some documentation of it? Kinamand (talk) 10:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

@Kinamand: Sorry for the delay. It's not me. It's a group effort. Yes, it's supposed to replace Mandarin entries, see Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-04/Unified Chinese. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

백치/白癡/白痴 in KoreanEdit

Since you understand Korean much better than me as a beginning learner only, [12] notes 白痴 as a synonym, but perhaps 白痴 would be considered "simplified" and therefore too redundant to have a Korean entry? Only because [13] used 白痴 in Korean hanja column would I search [14] first. After all, thanks for your interest in Korean.--Jusjih (talk) 06:03, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not very skilled in Korean, no. I have reverted my own edit. Sorry for the confusion. It seems that both 白癡 and 白痴 are the hanja forms for 백치. 癡 and 痴 don't seem to be trad./simpl. forms but alternative forms of one another. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
There are a handful of Sino-Korean words with two hanja forms. --07:57, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

More templates to deleteEdit

The whole set of templates {{ar-verb-fa3ala}}, {{ar-verb-fa33ala}}, etc. have been replaced with {{ar-past3sm}}, and should be deleted. Take a look at the former content of {{ar-verb-fa3ala}} just for fun ... a bunch of crazy template hell. Benwing (talk) 21:57, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. Thanks, just mark templates with {{delete}}, I'll keep an eye on them :). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

is a gender-neutral pronoun.Edit

I'm a Chinese native speaker. is a gender-neutral pronoun surely. Zero00072 (talk) 02:22, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I also can use for a man, a woman or a child. No matter which gender they are.Zero00072 (talk) 02:40, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm afraid you have to prove it. It's not what dictionaries say. Using indiscriminately for man and woman alike could be either sexist, illiterate or just sloppy, perhaps by dialect speakers where there's only one pronoun for both genders, typos are also numerous, due to the same pinyin. Native speakers mix up 的, 地 and 得 but dictionaries don't. Korean (geu) can also be used the same way but it's not standard. Template:cmn-personal pronouns was also edited by a native speaker. 他们 is also used for mixed groups. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:06, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
In dictionary, is for all gender surly,not only in talk.[[15]] This situation is not like 的,得 and 地. 的, 得 and 地 is use in confuse. But in Chinese, is generated in modern age for suitable European language. Originally, is for all gender. Zero00072 (talk) 03:35, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
"有时泛指,不分性别" doesn't seem as enough evidence to make it "gender-neutral", besides, even your source says "一般指男性". Pinging for assistance @Wyang:. Feel free to raise it at Wiktionary:Tea room/2014/September. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:45, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
OK, I will do that at there. Maybe it is a different between Trad. Chinese and Simp. Chinese. Zero00072 (talk) 03:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Another dictionary[[16]]. Zero00072 (talk) 03:43, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
What does the other dictionary say? I could only find transliterations. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:45, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
[[17]] 第三人稱。指你我以外的第三人。 A word define which other people not you and me. Zero00072 (talk) 03:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
I have added usage notes in both and . That should be sufficient, IMO. Are you satisfied with the outcome? I don't think you need to change the definitions or the pronoun table, though. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:07, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
他 is originally gender-neutral and is still so when referring to an indefinite person. 她 is a mondern invention. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:10, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
It seems standard in modern standard Mandarin, though. That's what we also learned in HSK and that's what modern dictionaries usually say. I'm aware of the original meaning and rather new character 她. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:13, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
is coined by 劉半農 since 1930s. In traditional, we do not use . Zero00072 (talk) 04:25, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, NOT Occasionally, but Usually. We do not notice third person's gender in common. Zero00072 (talk) 04:54, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
I think it may possibly differ in mainland China/Taiwan. In my Chinese course, we never mixed the two pronouns and teachers indicated us the right usage. Let the discussion continue at Tea room, some native speakers may join. Your first links says "有时" - usually. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)


Could you help me with this entry? We need to indicate the reading of běnshì refers to 文学作品创作所依据的原来的基本事实, while the reading of běnshi refers to 本领;技能 but I'm not sure how to format this. ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:00, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

You can model on 正當. L3 for pronunciations and L4 for PoS headers. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:29, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I've made the relevant changes now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:27, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Chinese templatesEdit

Why are you breaking all these templates? Template:zh-pos was deleted long ago, I'm not sure what the problem is suddenly. —CodeCat 23:42, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I haven't seen any discussion about it. If there is, please link. Did you discuss it with Wyang, Tooironic, myself, etc.? I also oppose demanding transliterations for Chinese terms too. I explained the reasons at Template_talk:zh-noun#Transliteration_and_Chinese_terms_needing_transliteration. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:46, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
That has already been fixed. It was a recent change I made to Module:headword as part of Benwing's request for handling transliterations in Arabic. —CodeCat 23:47, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I don't quite understand the change. I see that {{zh-pos}} has been deleted and I missed that discussion altogether. I agree with your Arabic changes but not sure what's going on with Chinese. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:52, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
{{zh-pos}} was RFDO'd because it contained only {{head|zh}}, which is kind of pointless to have a template for. But it turned out that some Hanzi entries used it directly, so I moved it to {{zh-hanzi}} and changed the code to categorise as Hanzi. As for the transliterations, I added code to Module:headword that automatically asks for a transliteration if the script is not Latin, and no transliteration was provided and none could be generated. I wasn't aware that Chinese worked differently, but I added an exception for it. Now that I think about it, there should probably be an exception for translingual too. —CodeCat 23:56, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
(E/C)Various Lao and Burmese entries have separate pronunciation sections too without a default transliteration in the headword. Pls double-check those. They could use a default transliteration, though, IMO but some transliterations fail as in appropriate the test cases. Hopefully, User:Wyang can fix them. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:05, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
I started a GP discussion about it now. —CodeCat 00:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


Any ideas of what part of speech we should give this entry? My C-C says it's an adjective (形新年吉祥、幸福); Wenlin says it's a fixed expression. But it's just one word... ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:22, 6 October 2014 (UTC)


Hiya, thought you may be interested in seeing the expansions I've made to your entry. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:42, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's good, thanks. Carl, don't forget about basic vocabulary, HSK, your to-do lists. :) There are many basic words still wanting entries. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

In case you hadn't noticed...Edit

This edit (diff) was not exactly a resounding success... Chuck Entz (talk) 05:17, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I know, thanks. Can it wait a bit? I hope User:Wyang can fix it, since he knows better how Module:ru-pron works. I have pinged him. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:21, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
diff sufficient for the rightnow? — [Ric Laurent] — 14:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
I think we should transcript initialisms manually anyway, since they often resist vowel reduction. --WikiTiki89 14:40, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, Ric. The module should support hyphens, though. I made a new test case, which failed the module. Manual IPA (as a variant in this case) is achieved by inserting a required symbol instead of the Cyrillic letter. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 20:02, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

please use another term instead of 歷史 as an exampleEdit

歷史 was first coined by the Japanese people for the translation of the English word history. 歷史 was subsequently borrowed from Japanese to other languages including Chinese to interpret the western idea of history. Lishi is actually derived from rekishi, to be precise. So 歷史 is originally Japanese and definitely inappropriate and misleading to be used as an example of the so called Sinoxenic descendants. In fact modern Chinese contains too many Japanese borrowing and they are no typically Sinoxenic.

It's certainly possible that the sense of the ancient word was different from the modern history meaning, and/or that the word was repurposed in Japan (such as 自由). That said, the word seems to have been coined in China, and it had some kind of historical connotations loooooong before anything "Japanese" ever existed, making the “Sino-xenic” label appropriate. Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
It was quite common to assign a new Western concept to an old Classical Chinese word, such as 経済, which appeared in Classical Chinese but gained a new meaning ("economy") in Japan under Westernization. 歴史 is the same. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 08:10, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • That leads me to a few questions.
    1. How did the meaning of 歴史 change? I'm not familiar with Classical Chinese, so I'm not sure how it was used in more detail, beyond that it was related to ideas of history. On an individual character level, roughly speaking, 歴 == order of events, and 史 == record thereof, which is a pretty good fit for history as used in many contexts in English.
    2. What exactly does the Sino-xenic label mean? I understood it to mean that a word was originally coined in Chinese, and that was the meaning in my head when I wrote my reply to Somnipathy -- 歴史 is clearly a Chinese coinage, and not “originally Japanese” as Somnipathy wrote above. Is there some other meaning of Sino-xenic that I'm missing?
‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 21:57, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
  • It's normal to refer to terms coined from Chinese components in Korean or Vietnamese as Sino-Korean and Sino-Vietnamese, even if words were coined by Koreans and Vietnamese. This includes more modern words, of course, which may or may not be used by Chinese, e.g. ca sĩ or 친구 (chin-gu). It's not so common for Japanese but kango is actually the same - a Sino-Japanese term. Sino-Xenic doesn't have to mean "a native Chinese word", IMO. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:11, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Category:Ukrainian entries needing definitionEdit

I was thinking of deleting all of the obscure entries starting with а (obscure = not appearing in Bilodid) because having them there justs irks me up, and I want to make space for adding new terms by frequency of occurrence). Indeed - someone, someday might add translations to them (N.B. those are all real terms, attested in corpus, just very rare), but just having them there populating the first page of the category discourages edits on much more frequent words which should be prioritized. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:35, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Yes, sorry, I haven't done much lately. The obscurity is certainly discouraging. For me, Ukrainian is also a less of a priority too - it's not my language and I'm not fluent in it. I'd say, no need to separate by etymology either. It's a bonus, not a requirement. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:14, 22 October 2014 (UTC)


Could you please try to find some translations for the noun form of this entry please? Thanks, Razorflame 23:38, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

Chinese zhǎnrénEdit

I wonder what the term zhǎnrén means in Mandarin (and Chinese in general). --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 03:38, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Not in any of the dictionaries I've checked. Don't think it exists in Chinese. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:42, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
That's right. I can't find anything either. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:41, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

長官, 长官Edit

Just letting you know I fixed the pinyin for this entry. How can we check the other dialect romanisations are correct? ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:34, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Thanks and apologies for the mistake. It was just lack of attentiveness. No need to check other dialects. Hakka and Cantonese are from Wyang's data files, which contains full words with transliterations. Min Nan is in the interwiki. I can give other, direct sources, if you plan to work with other lects. BTW, I'm not happy with over-capitalisation of pinyin. Wenlin is not a perfect source for correct pinyin capitalisation. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:41, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

ru:English surnamesEdit

Hi Atitarev, what declension would be for the English surname Конли correct? --Morescrev (talk) 12:52, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

This particular surname is indeclinable, as the entry says. It's obviously animate, I will fix the header later but animacy is only needed for completeness on indeclinable terms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:09, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! --Morescrev (talk) 13:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


Это зачем? --WikiTiki89 16:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Что конкретно тебе не понравилось? Можно с тем же успехом написать {{ru-IPA|со́лнце}}: IPA(key): [ˈsont͡sə], модуль знает о произношении сочетания "-лнц-", но так лучше, есть дополнительная информация о фонетической орфографии. Нас в школе учили, что "солнце" читается как [со́нце]. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:25, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Мне не нравится лишняя информация. {{ru-IPA|phon=со́нце}} и {{ru-IPA|со́лнце|phon=со́нце}} делают совсем то же самое. --WikiTiki89 00:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Это дело вкуса, ничего "опасного" или "неправильного" здесь, как и нарушения правил, генерируемый МФА тоже правильный. Корейский модуль, например, автоматически выставляет фонетический хангыль для описанных исключений, т.е. как слово произносится фонетически. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:00, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Этот параметр совсем не используется в модуле. Можно было бы также написать {{ru-IPA|авто́бус|phon=со́нце}} и все равно МФА был бы правильным: [ˈsont͡sə]. --WikiTiki89 01:14, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Это неважно. Важно, что есть phonetic respelling: .... Первый параметр используется для слов без исключений или если нет фонетической орфографии в русском, как в "дрожжи": IPA(key): [ˈdroʑːɪ] --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:19, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Пример фонетического хангыля: "어떻게", произносится 어떠케. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:21, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Вот я и спрашиваю: зачем? То-есть, почему "Первый параметр используется для слов без исключений", если он совсем лишний когда есть параметр "phon="? --WikiTiki89 02:08, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

"phon" дает "phonetic respelling", который не нужен для слов, которые читаются по правилам. Первый параметр в этом случае не нужен.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Я именно это и говорю. Если он не нужен в таких случаях, зачем его добавлять? --WikiTiki89 02:17, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Мне так нравится. :) Не считаю это серьезной проблемой. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:23, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

Неверно обрабатывает сочетание "ъё" (например с слове "съёмка") --Wanjuscha (talk) 11:24, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

@Wanjuscha: Sorry for a late reply but this is now fixed by User:Wyang. Thank you both! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

稱為, 称为Edit

Fixed your pinyin here too FYI. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:45, 16 November 2014 (UTC)

Please use taxlinkEdit

If you use {{taxlink}} in your entries for vernacular names of living things, I can check the name for its acceptability or synonymy. It also makes it more likely that I will add the taxonomic name entry and also provides a link to the taxonomic name at Wikispecies (where sometimes translations are provided or sometimes translations are missing). I mention this because I came across a year-old entry of yours (макака) that didn't use taxlink, but had a taxonomic name in it. I search for these sometimes but it can be slow. DCDuring TALK 18:32, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks. I'll try to follow your suggestion. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:12, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it. And I'll make sure that I enter some regional specific epithets like dauuricus/dauricus. DCDuring TALK 04:42, 19 November 2014 (UTC)

Harassment by another adminEdit

Another admin, Kephir, is harassing me. He removed comments I made on another user's talk page, here and here. When I asked him not to do that, he deleted the message on my talk page, claiming it was vandalism here. There are many other instances of harassment of me by this editor. Could you PLEASE get him to stop? Purplebackpack89 21:58, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I have no control over other peoples' actions. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Well, couldn't you at least talk to him and tell him what he did was inappropriate and a misuse of the tools? Purplebackpack89 22:19, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately, we don't have a mechanism for resolving disputes. There are many conflicts between editors, including bullying and usually it's between them. I recommend posting a complaint in BP first. Sorry for not being a help here. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:49, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, I've filed a BP complaint, because trying to resolve it with him resulted in him (wrongly) deleting my edits as vandalism. I fear that this is some sort of trap or BOOMERANG, for Kephir to start some bullshit thread about what he doesn't like about me, though Purplebackpack89 22:58, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Another thing he could be betting on is that nothing will happen because there are some editors who don't like me very much. Purplebackpack89 23:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
Beer Parlour is reserved for serious discussions with community-wide impact. I have deleted your petty grievances. --Vahag (talk) 09:12, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
@Vahagn Petrosyan:: You can't just remove another editor's edits to a talk page or a community noticeboard the way you did. I have undone your edit. Purplebackpack89 13:04, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Become an admin yourself and start deleting his edits. — [Ric Laurent] — 11:00, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Are you planning on nominating me? I doubt the powers that be will let me be an admin, just as it's been over 12 hours and nobody's done anything about Kephir's misuse of the tools. Purplebackpack89 13:04, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Lol "the powers that be." You take this place so seriously. — [Ric Laurent] — 10:39, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Russian pronunciation of yearsEdit

Hello Anatoli,

say, could you tell me if there's a way to pronounce years easier in Russian? Right now, also because I am a beginner, I know the words, but just stumble every time I want to pronounce a year like 1911 or something (right now I go like тысяча девятьсот одиннадцать, is that okay?). If there is any way you guys make it easier for yourselves, I'd like to know. Thank you anyway. 21:55, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Years are adjectives, so "1911" is ты́сяча девятьсо́т оди́ннадцатый (год), "2014" is "две ты́сячи четы́рнадцатый (год)" - "год" is optional. When you say in, you need to change to locative/prepositional case in 1911 - в ты́сяча девятьсо́т оди́ннадцатом (году́), in 2014 - "в две ты́сячи четы́рнадцатом (году́)". Colloquially, we drop the first part, when the century is clear, e.g. "оди́ннадцатый (год)", "в оди́ннадцатом (году́)". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, yes, I forgot that they were adjectives, thanks for telling me! Also, could you explain how to pronounce 'гг.', as in 1915-1917 гг.? Thanks 22:22, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Depending on the position in the sentence, го́ды or года́х, в 1915-1917 гг - ты́сяча девятьсо́т пятна́дцатом-семна́дцатом года́х --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:26, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, why is it that the years as adjective do not change to plural as with годах? 08:33, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Because it's fifteenth (1) and seventeenth (1) years (plural). The 90's is девяностые (годы), the year 1990 - девяностый (год). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:10, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

When you see it, all of a sudden it makes sense. Again, thank you for your help! 15:02, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Note that "тысяч-" is often colloquially contracted to "тыщ-". Also, I guess it's technically wrong, but I always say "двухтысячепятнадцатый год" and "в двухтысячепятнадцатом году". --WikiTiki89 15:55, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
In Russia, nobody says so or it's too uncommon, spellings are wrong too. Re: "тыщ-" yes. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:32, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
If that were true, pages like this wouldn't be necessary. But of course nobody spells it that way. --WikiTiki89 22:01, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
My daughter makes mistakes in long numbers and complex phrases all the time, since she has grown up away from Russia but she doesn't try to teach Russian. Your style of writing, choice of words, reveals Russian is not as natural language for you as you might think - diff. I don't want to waste time on this, let alone teach a foreigner about problems with numerals. I want to make a dictionary, not making points. Describing all possibilities of a broken languages may be impossible and useless. I might make an appendix with numerals. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:15, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
It seems that you're just in denial of the existence of anything other than the standard language. If anything, my Russian is more "natural" than yours because I didn't have my natural "mistakes" beaten out of me in school. But I think the key difference between us is that I embrace mistakes as part of the language, while you don't. And that has nothing to do with Russian, since I do the same for English, and for every other language I edit. Anyway, I was never planning to add двухтысячепятнадцатый to the dictionary (or to your planned appendix, for that matter); I was just contributing to the discussion here and I even mentioned that it is "technically wrong" and only something that "I always say". And I wouldn't even have done that if I didn't think that there were others in Russia that make the same "mistake". --WikiTiki89 21:15, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
I include Russian common misspellings and colloquial forms. Unlike purists, who deny the pronunciation "ща́вель" vs "щаве́ль", the former has never penetrated formal dictionaries. What you're mentioning is not common enough in Russia proper. Spelling "двухтысячичетырнадцатый" (и, not е) has only two hits, "двухтысячитринадцатый" just one. I am not against colloquial irregular forms but I'm against "Brighton Beach" or "Balaclava" (Melbourne, Australia) Russian, which are spoken by very small groups, similar to Canadian Ukrainian, which is limited to very small emigrant groups who lack education in their own language and not used consistently even among emigrants. This is the English Wiktionary, so any variation in English may be still useful but introducing broken Russian will just confuse users and has no value. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
There are people in Russia as well who are not educated or poorly educated and make the same mistakes, so stop blaming this on emigrant communities. Emigrant communities do have their peculiarities, but these are usually due to the influence of the surrounding language (such as "взять автобус"). This being the English Wiktionary only means that we define everything in terms of English. It does not mean that we should include more details about English than about other languages. --WikiTiki89 22:22, 23 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm sure you will disagree with me but I don't think you have enough experience in written and spoken Russian to make a good judgement on what is common. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Where do you see me making judgments on what is common? Also, the word "common" by itself is meaningless; it must be accompanied by a time and a place. --WikiTiki89 15:11, 25 November 2014 (UTC)
Funny, Polish speakers say *dwutysięczny piętnasty all the time. It drives me nuts. Keφr 21:54, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
We say двухты́сячный (год)/в двухты́сячном (году́) - (year) 2000/in 2000. Only the last number is a declinable adjective. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:45, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry Anatoli, I did not mean to waste your time. Since you commented on a question I had elsewhere, I just thought you were willing to help me figure it out. 13:07, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

His comments about wasting his time were directed at Wikitiki89, and were part of an ongoing debate they've been having over multiple issues for quite a long time. I think both of them were happy to answer your question, but they were disagreeing about the best way to do so. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:33, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

彈指, 弹指Edit

FYI, I fixed the pinyin here. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:38, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

little emperorEdit

Hey, I'm trying to format this etymology as an English calque (from Chinese), but my edit hasn't put it into any category like watershed. Can you help? ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Done. You need a target language - 2nd parameter. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:08, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, but I meant to go in the "English calques" category, as it is in watershed. Curiously, watershed is not currently listed in the German derivations category. Not sure what the policy is on this. Is a calque considered a true derivation? I would argue it is. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:16, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
That's a manual category, not from a template: Category:English calques is simply added to watershed. You can change it back to "-" if you don't want it to be derived from Chinese. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:22, 24 November 2014 (UTC)
Oh I see. I don't have an opinion on this, but I'll put it in the English calques category for now. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


Just wondering whether there was a prettier way to deal with the situation like we have at 行囊 where there are multiple measure words, and they have simp and trad forms? I think we can make do with the way I've formatted it now, but it doesn't strike me as a very elegant solution. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:41, 25 November 2014 (UTC)


FYI I fixed the pinyin here - the character 量 is pronounced liáng as in 考量 kǎoliáng. We should get the Cantonese checked as well though. ---> Tooironic (talk)

Thanks. That's another careless mistake. Don't worry about Cantonese, they are mostly from a Cantonese dictionary (if not added manually). It's automatically loaded when a word is found in the data Frank (Wyang) has saved. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:26, 26 November 2014 (UTC)


Hello – with apologies if I've missed the place/template to use for the following (I'm not confident that Template:wikipedia's talkpage is watched):

  • Can the fourth line of Template:wikipedia ...
    -->{{#if:{{{lang|}}}|{{#invoke:wikimedia languages/templates|getByCodeWithFallback|{{{lang}}}|getCanonicalName}}&nbsp;}}[[Wikipedia]] has <!--
... be replaced with ...
-->{{#if:{{{lang|}}}|The&nbsp;{{#invoke:wikimedia languages/templates|getByCodeWithFallback|{{{lang}}}|getCanonicalName}}&nbsp;}}[[Wikipedia]] has <!--
... please, so that the template displays "The [lang] Wikipedia has ..." when {{{lang}}} is specified (e.g. "The Italian Wikipedia has an article on / has articles on: ...") rather than the current incorrect "[lang] Wikipedia has ..." ("Italian Wikipedia has an article on: ...")..?

Regards, Sardanaphalus (talk) 10:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

It isn't incorrect. Wikipedia is a name and a proper noun. We don't say "The American Samoa." The definite article isn't required so its absence doesn't reduce correctness. In the case of Wikpedia, since colloquially its name is probably thought of and used as a simple noun, like you did (and I myself frequently do) referring to "the wikipedias" by their language. Colloquial use doesn't dictate correctness until it's been common for...a long long time. Wikipedia, however, isn't going to stop being a name. — [Ric Laurent] — 07:26, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your thoughts. I'm puzzled, though, as I haven't noticed anyone at the English Wikipedia – apologies: at English Wikipedia – referring to a Wikipedia in another language as "[language] Wikipedia"; so far as I've seen, it's always "the [language] Wikipedia". To adopt/adapt your example, I imagine that if there were a language called "American Samoan", people would refer to its Wikipedia as "the American Samoan Wikipedia" (or "the American-Samoan Wikipedia"), not as "American Samoan Wikipedia" ("American-Samoan Wikipedia"). Perhaps it's because "[language]"-type names such as "American Samoan" can, without alteration, serve as adjectives..? Regards, Sardanaphalus (talk) 11:58, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
    I agree with the use of "the". --WikiTiki89 13:55, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
Some general thoughts.
  • Words that are capitalized in singular proper name contexts are used with lower case in the plural. For example, we have Miyagi Prefecture or Washington State, but Iwate and Akita prefectures and Virginia and Illinois states. The reasoning I've heard is that, in the singular, "prefecture" or "state" is part of a specific proper noun, while in the plural, the following noun is not part of a single specific proper noun. So using lower-case w when talking about multiple wikipedias seems perfectly correct to me, from the styles I've had pounded into me.
  • The definite article can be used with a proper noun that is modified. We don't happen to use the "the" in American Samoa because the "American" part is part of the name of the place. However, we do use "the" when specifying one specific proper noun that is modified, such as the English Wikipedia as opposed to the Spanish Wikipedia, or the Fred who sits in the corner as opposed to the Fred who is on vacation, or the Portland in Oregon as opposed to the Portland in Maine.
FWIW. HTH.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Would Wiktionary suck less if people spent less time talking about definite articles and more time creating content, or is this a fantasy? — [Ric Laurent] — 09:18, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

  • Given what Wiktionary is stated to be, I'd say that was more irony than fantasy – or maybe that was the point of your comment. Sardanaphalus (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Your name was suggested when I enquired via IRC about where to make my request above. Was this someone's joke, or is there something I've done or not done that's resulted in your silence..? If it's the latter, then, whatever it may be, my apologies. Sardanaphalus (talk) 22:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

@Sardanaphalus: I don't know why my name was suggested. I haven't work with this template and don't have an opinion about it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:16, 9 December 2014 (UTC)


I think we are better off classifying this as a verb; surely a 词 cannot be considered a "phrase". What do you think? ---> Tooironic (talk) 08:53, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Whatever we choose, it's going to be arbitrary. Chinese doesn't have inherent parts of speech, they are only important in a sentence, not as individual words. I don't mind if you change it to "verb". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:34, 30 November 2014 (UTC)


I'm putting back "public transport; public transit; public transportation" as I think it's useful for users, but in the future I'll be sure to use the "zh" code for the synonyms. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:36, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

OK. Please don't remove Cantonese or other readings. {{zh-l}} is more flexible and can do what {{l|zh}} can for Chinese. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:40, 1 December 2014 (UTC)


"I know I speak one of those, but I can't remember which. I'll just choose one randomly!" —CodeCat 23:45, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know what you mean. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:51, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm just joking a bit about your edits to шёл. :) —CodeCat 23:53, 11 December 2014 (UTC)
Ah, I see. I used a Polish entry to make it as a sample, forgot to change the language header. :) Polish inflected forms are usually in a better shape than Russian. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:00, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
It's not too hard to make a bot that generates entries. It's the same general idea as with green links. The only real difficult part is handling entries that already exist. —CodeCat 00:04, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
What about red-links (no entry at all)? I generally don't make inflected forms manually but шёл is a suppletive form, that's why I thought I should make it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:13, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
That's much easier. What my bot does (or did... it hasn't made inflected forms in a long time) is it looks through the entry you give it for an inflection template invocation, then it extracts the template and its parameters and re-expands it (using Special:ExpandTemplates) but with an extra parameter like bot=1 which tells the template to show a raw list of inflected forms rather than a table. The bot reads this list, so then it knows what the forms are and what definition should go on each form. From that point, it's just a matter of putting together some wikitext for each form, and then creating the entries.
I've written this in Python except for the templates and modules, which "cooperate" with the bot, giving it the list of forms. But it's also possible to generate the whole entry in Lua, so the bot just asks the module directly for the new entries and their contents. That would make the Python part easier, perhaps even not necessary at all, but then of course you have to write the logic to generate entries' contents in Lua instead. If you're more comfortable with Lua that might be a better alternative for you. —CodeCat 01:39, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I'd welcome if you or somebody else could make it work for Russian. Being able to make accelerated entries would be good too. I can only offer help in checking the results and maybe make some changes. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:44, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
I was hoping that you could do it yourself. There's only so much I can do on my own and I'm already struggling with some things. As far as I know, you've gotten some experience in working with Lua, so you could do this. Alternatively you could write it in JavaScript for the accelerated entry creation, which has the benefit of already being "prepared" for the task. But the downside of WT:ACCEL is that it can't handle cases where one word is two different forms of the same word (say, genitive singular and nominative plural at the same time). It would only generate a definition for one of the forms, you'd have to add the rest yourself which slows things down a lot. This is why making it in Lua or Python is better; the script can "see" all forms at once, so it can also see when two different inflections have the same form, and combine them. —CodeCat 02:13, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
My hands are full too. If I add Lua editing here, I won't have a life outside Wiktionary. :) If you're too busy, please share the code with me. I may have a look but I can't promise anything. No pressure, I understand you're busy and have other priorities. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:27, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
The code I have now is bad and probably wouldn't work right. It's why I haven't run it for so long... I need to fix it but am never motivated enough. :( —CodeCat 02:33, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

財政家 et alEdit

What's going on with the changes to the formatting? Now the hanzi box does not allow you to click on words within the entry, e.g. 财政 in 财政家. ---> Tooironic (talk) 06:27, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what exactly you mean but please check with User:Wyang. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:35, 12 December 2014 (UTC)
Fixed now. Wyang (talk) 06:40, 12 December 2014 (UTC)


Can you take look at those? There are also quite a few user pages on that list — notifying Dick Laurent, ZxxZxxZ Keφr 18:11, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll do Russian ones. There are some North Caucasian language terms, which I don't know--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:49, 15 December 2014 (UTC)
The Arabic verb conjugation templates can be deleted. They all have been Lua-ised. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:18, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

zh-see and zh-formsEdit

Hello. I saw you started using {{zh-see}}. Is it officialy accepted? Can I start using it? Same question for {{zh-forms}} instead of {{zh-hanzi-box}}.Meihouwang (talk) 19:43, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's been approved in Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/December#New_changes_to_Chinese_entries - it's about centralising the contents. Yes, you can start using it but it will be automatically generated if you use {{zh-new}}. It becomes even more important to use only traditional characters in traditional entries, watch for the conversion. This this revision of , calling @Bumm13:. Please check for correct usage of traditional/simplified characters.
The use of "/乾" in the article is correct usage, as its usage for the "first hexagram of the I Ching" is not simplified like the other definitions are. Bumm13 (talk) 09:40, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
@Bumm13: The usage examples were incorrect. Although the article is traditional form , the simplified form was used in both examples. I have fixed it now: 我喉嚨很乾。/我喉咙很干。 and 乾淨/干净. The simplified form after "/" is automatic. (The automatic conversion trad.-> simp and pinyin worked well in this case). See my edit in this diff to show what I meant, specifically the usage of simpl. 干 and 喉咙 in the traditional entry. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
Ah, okay. I didn't add those examples, I merely unified the article into the new "Chinese" format. Bumm13 (talk) 10:57, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
{{zh-forms}} is an upgrade of {{zh-hanzi-box}}. If you use {{zh-new}} it will automatically use these templates. This template is recommended because it may add Cantonese, Hakka and Min Nan pronunciations, if there is data. Simplified entries should be created after traditional to avoid generating Lua errors. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:21, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
Question: I am still using {{subst:cmn-new||definition}} to create trad entries, but is there a way to automatically create a simp entry at the same time? Otherwise I still have to click through to the simp entry then copy/paste the same data... ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:30, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
You can use the same template for jiantizi, the parameters can be anything. It's "zh", not "cmn" but "cmn" redirects to "zh". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:51, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, gotcha. I will do that from now on. But if we could develop an automatic generation of simp entries that would increase our efficiency quite a bit. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:30, 23 December 2014 (UTC)


When you get time could you help me with this? I just need it to indicate that bōzhòng is Standard, bòzhǒng is Taiwan and bōzhǒng is a common variant, but I'm having trouble. Thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:04, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

m_note param is no longer working. @Wyang: what's the right way? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:58, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
Is it OK now? Wyang (talk) 10:58, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
@Wyang: Ah, I see, you' using 1nb, 2nb, 3nb, thanks! Can Middle and Old Chinese be split by pronunciations, as with [[]]? The other topolects could have two pronunciation sections as well, e.g. Mandarin "gān", "qián", if MC and OC can be split. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:35, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
OK, done now. Wyang (talk) 20:23, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
@Wyang:. Thank you. There's a vote about the redirects Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-12/Making_simplified_Chinese_soft-redirect_to_traditional_Chinese. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 20:29, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Ah, from the perpetually enraged unsurprisingly. Wyang (talk) 20:39, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
And! zh-0? — [Ric Laurent] — 23:28, 20 December 2014 (UTC)
Excuse me???? I have nothing to do with that vote!!!!!!!!!!!111 Keφr 09:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
Nobody blames YOU, Kephir. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:23, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

An ideaEdit

If we can't store the content of all Chinese entries in one place and display it at both simp and trad entries, maybe we could make all simp entries hard-redirects to their trad counterparts? This would be most convenient for users and editors. The only exceptions we could have would be for Chinese entries which also have Japanese entries - they could remain soft redirects. I am suggesting this idea because although I support synchronisation of the the scripts - much how other Chinese electronic dictionaries do - having simp script users have to click through to see real content is not user-friendly IMO, perhaps even discriminatory. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:43, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

The devil is in the details. The trouble is there are not just Japanese entries but also Chinese terms, which are also traditional for some senses but have simplified variants for others. We need to centralise the contents somehow. You won't find a single dictionary (printed or electronic), which duplicates the contents for both forms, you just choose a form or use what's given, the other forms is also provided. If we chose simplified, it would discriminatory for others. Perhaps in the future, users could make their preferences and see the character set of their choice or better, a simplified entry worked as a viewer of the content inside the traditional entry. I worked on [[]] today, it was a mess. Examples used a mixture of simplified and traditional forms, same with its simplified counterpart [[]]. If we allow both forms, casual and anon editors will copy-paste contents and we will always have mess. More often editors just edit one form and don't care about synchronization. Let's centralise the contents first and think what we can do to with simplified entries to make them more user-friendly. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:04, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
I see. Could you explain what you mean by "centralise the contents"? ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:30, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Having definitions (translations into English), pronunciations, synonyms, usage examples, derived terms, etc., etc. in one page, not two or more, thus having no duplications, which creates the situation when the contents is out of sync. A good traditional entry should contain both trad. and simpl. forms. Usexes already display this automatically, Then, if simplified Chinese becomes the lemma (switched form traditional), then the contents could be just switched between the two. Ideally, IMHO, both entries should display the same info but the contents should be stored in one page. Technically, it may achieved in the future, not now. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:42, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
That seems fine to me, but what do you think of the hard-redirect idea? Implementing that would, in effect, mean the content could be displayed consistently in roughly 90 per cent of our Chinese entries. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:57, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Much less than 90%. Many Japanese entries still need to be created. So, a hard-redirect may become a Japanese entry. It's a possibility for other cases but hard-redirects are disliked here even more than soft-redirects. It doesn't help entries, which do have a Japanese entry. It has to be a more consistent solution. Perhaps this discussion should be in the BP, in the realted topic, what do you think? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:05, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
I beg to differ. If you take into account all the 词 entries, including all the various long 词 entries like 成语 and compound nouns etc. I think the figure would be somewhere in that ball park, or at least a solid majority. I know hard-redirects are disliked here, but considering that we don't have a solution to display centralised content, I don't think there are any alternatives. If someone wants to make a Japanese entry on a simplified Chinese entry that has been hard-redirected, they are still free to do so, albeit with a bit of stuffing around. Regardless, Japanese and Chinese both have a solid number of established entries as it is, so I don't see it being a major issue. I will make a comment in the Beer Parlour discussion in a moment. ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:55, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

Don't auto-revertEdit

If you auto-revert motivated changes, you use the talkpage. Other than that, read up on what sashimi actually is.

Peter Isotalo 12:14, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

@Peter Isotalo: My reversion was for your removal of the Chinese translation of 生魚片生鱼片 in diff, which is a synonym of other Chinese terms but you have casually removed it with "生魚片 doesn't seem to be a synonym but rather a similar dish" edit summary. I have accidentally reverted your other edits as well, sorry for this. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:20, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
"Casually"? You just quoted my motivation from the edit summary. My Chinese is fairly rudimentary, but as far as I can tell form English and Chinese Wikipedia, it's a term for kuai.
Peter Isotalo 13:04, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
生魚片生鱼片 is also used in the sense of the Japanese "sashimi", as well as some other words, like 魚生鱼生. Are you satisfied and will leave the page alone or you want me to start a discussion at Wiktionary:Tea_room#December_2014? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 18:58, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
Dunno why you would post this reply, then lock down the article and only gripe about being questioned. Replying over there.
Peter Isotalo 22:06, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


While I agree with you that Peter has crossed the line, isn't an indef protection allowing only admin edits a bit much? Wouldn't it be better to just get Peter off the page in one way or another? Purplebackpack89 23:38, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry, I'll remove protection when he evaporates. I don't have a clue how else to deal with such pesky editors. He seems to have history of being blocked, though. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:45, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
I think it's time for a final warning, something along the lines of "stop edit-warring on sushi and sashimi, or face a long block". Purplebackpack89 23:50, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I am considering this but I needed to fix "sashimi" and "sushi" translations and the Chinese entries. Let them stay protected for a short while if nobody complains apart from this editor. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:55, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
Why would you link the constituent parts of Chinese terms separately? If they're fixed terms they should be linked as a whole, just like we do with any compound noun. It seems as useful as separating Christmas tree.
And the reason we're having problems here is that you're not engaging in constructive discussion. You're just repeating your stance over and over, regardless of objections.
Peter Isotalo 01:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Pretty sure the reason we're having problems is your edit-warring, Pete. Purplebackpack89 02:01, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but how is this edit warring? It's a minor tweak with a clearly specified reason. Responding to that by locking down the article really makes no sense. The condescending discussion above doesn't give the impression that you're on any moral high ground here.
Peter Isotalo 02:40, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Dude, I hope you realize that I'm also arguing for lifting the protection. But, if when the protection is lifted, you go back there and undo A's edits, you will be blocked. Purplebackpack89 05:03, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I haven't "undone" any edits in sushi. It was a perfectly normal tweak that was well-motivated. Which is why resent you two talking over my head as though I was engaging in vandalism. "Preventive" article protection to secure one's own edits is not constructive.
Peter Isotalo 09:19, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
I hate to say it, @Atitarev:, but he DOES have a point. Purplebackpack89 16:01, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
No he doesn't, he was linking an SOP. It doesn't matter if they're synonymous if they're not idioms. — [Ric Laurent] — 17:51, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
To clarify, I meant a point about an admin protecting something while they're edit-warring with another editor. I continue to believe that, regardless of the correctness of Pete's edits, indefinite full protection was a bridge too far. Purplebackpack89 18:02, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Quibble. — [Ric Laurent] — 18:25, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
Peter is out of his element trying to edit Chinese. His edit to sushi reflects his lack of understanding of how things work here, and his edits to sashimi are disruptive and tantamount to vandalism. We can choose between protecting the page and blocking Peter. You may feel that protecting a page is a big deal, but that feeling comes from your experiences with Wikipedia. Here we do not consider that protecting a page is such big deal and it is a tool that some of us have always used under these circumstances. It is also true that most of the admins here would simply block Peter, but Anatoli is trying to avoid blocking him. When Anatoli feels it is safe to do so, he will unprotect the page (it is not protected permanently, it is only protected until Peter loses interest). Then if Peter tries the same things again, we will just block him. —Stephen (Talk) 10:11, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Purplebackpack89, as I and Stephen have said, I'm not going to permanently protect the pages, as soon as I'm sure that Peter Isotalo is off those pages undoing my edits.
To remind everyone what happened:
User:Tooironic has added 生魚片生鱼片 and 魚生鱼生 as translations of "shashimi" on 19.12 - diff and diff. Which is quite right. See sashimi@MDBG, you can also check Google images for this term. Although 生魚片生鱼片 is also used for an ancient Chinese dish called "kuai". It's also used in the sense of sashimi.
On the 25.12 Peter Isotalo edits "sashimi" and removes the Chinese translation 生魚片生鱼片 - last edit diff, edit summary: "生魚片 doesn't seem to be a synonym but rather a similar dish".
I saw that diff (the last edit) in my watchlist and rolled it back (accidentally removing his other edits as well, for which I have apologised). He rolls back my rollback.
When I realised that I rolled back to much I restored the valid Chinese translation (and fixed transliterations for other languages). diff
Peter Isotalo starts an edit war - diff and removes 生魚片生鱼片 again, despite two people with more Chinese knowledge than his making the translations and the existence of 生魚片生鱼片 entries.
Then I protected the entry. Let him think I'm misusing my administrator rights, whatever. He doesn't seem to have a clue but kept pushing the changes, removing someone else's translations. If he still insists 生魚片生鱼片 does not mean "shashimi" he can open an RFT or RFV discussion.
About "sushi"
A while ago I added a SoP translation 日本壽司日本寿司 - diff. 日本 (Japan) is almost a redundant qualifier here. 日式 or 日本 are often used to qualify Japanese products/things and differentiate them from Chinese cognates. E.g. 日式拉麵/日式拉面 is clearly indicating that it's Japanese ramen, not a Chinese "lamian".
I have linked the individual parts to display 日本壽司, 日本寿司 (Rìběn shòusī) in diff, fixing my own edit. No dictionary will contain 日本壽司日本寿司 because this is an obvious SoP (sum of parts). It's not comparable to "Christmas tree" or other terms considered idiomatic.
Peter Isotalo seemed to start to enjoy undoing my edits and makes 日本壽司日本寿司 in diff.
I had no choice but protect "sushi" as well, although I was tempted to block P.I. for edit-warring and disruptive edits. As I said, I'll remove the protection as soon as I'm sure he stops removing valid translations. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:51, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I enjoy undoing your edits. That's exactly my goal here on Wiktionary. Good thing we have keen observers like you here, or things would fall to pieces real fast.
Peter Isotalo 07:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Since you still feel right and sarcastic about your edits, then the entries will remain protected. Or you prefer being blocked? It's not a good idea to protect entries for too long because of one editor. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:32, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Actually, I'm being sarcastic about your notion that I'm out to get you personally. It does explain why you'd spend a lot of your precious time insulting me before even attempting to explain what you believe I've misunderstood. Not that I quite get your reasoning about why Chinese sum of part-terms would be "too obvious" for separate entries. While blocking and locking down articles seems to be a fairly arbitrary process here, Wiktionary at least seems to have consensus that it's not paper. But what do I know? I'm just here to pick fights with you, right?
Peter Isotalo 08:00, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Whatever, it's you who started removing someone else's edits without bothering to check just a bit more thoroughly or ask and started edit warring with certainty and arrogance. If 日本壽司/日本寿司 is not an obvious sum of parts for you then you have no clue and should stay clear of Chinese entries or translations. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:07, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Like I said, I'm used to an editing climate where users motivate themselves because it tends to prevent misunderstanding and suspicion between people.
And I'm not expressing any doubt about what is or isn't an obvious term or expression. I'm merely surprised that it would used as a motivation to exclude an entry. In my mind, it would be assuming an unusually high level of competence from readers.
Peter Isotalo 08:38, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

阿Q and 阿Q精神Edit

When you have time could you help me fix the pronunciation for these two entries? Lua is having trouble deciphering the "Q" here. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

I don't know how because I don't know how exactly "Q" is pronounced in Mandarin Chinese. If it's "kyū" or "kǖ", it will work. "Q" on its own is not a syllable. Calling @Wyang:. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:51, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
See also 卡拉OK - foreign symbols need to be transcribed into pinyin (even though "kyū" or "kǖ" are not valid pinyin syllables). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:56, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Question on the new templateEdit

Hi. You replaced one of the entries I made for the simplified character version of an entry into a new template. {{zh-see|挨罵}} I agree that that's better. However, when I try to convert simplified character entries to that, this appears.

Warning: Your contribution does not contain a valid language and part-of-speech header. Please see Wiktionary:Entry layout explained for details regarding formatting entries. Guidelines regarding formatting entries of specific languages may be found in Category:Wiktionary language considerations. Click the "Show preview" button to see if there are any anomalies. Unconstructive edits will be quickly reverted, and egregious or repeated unconstructive editing will result in your account or IP address being blocked. If you believe this action to be constructive, you may submit it again to confirm it. If this message is erroneous, please report it at WT:Grease pit.

This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: strips L3

Do you know how to prevent this? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:12, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi and welcome on board.:) You seem to have successfully done some entries with {{zh-see}}. Note that it should only be used on a Chinese entries, for demonstration, one should use {{zh-see|挨罵}}. We are using the soft-redirect not because traditional is better but because we want to centralise the content, hopefully both trad./simp. entries may display the same info while the contents is stored in one place. It's recommended to use {{zh-new}} for new entries (including simplified), as Cantonese, Min Nan and Hakka readings may also be picked up, if we have data for them. Simplified entries are created AFTER traditional with a simple code: {{subst:zh-new}}. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:26, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I was successful in using the zh-see template once, but only if I input the template at the start. If I edit an old articles of a simplified character entry, every time I delete the entire content and place the template, it still shows this message. "This action has been automatically identified as harmful, and therefore disallowed. If you believe your action was constructive, please inform an administrator of what you were trying to do. A brief description of the abuse rule which your action matched is: strips L3". Look at the entry for 熄灭. I don't know if someone will already change it when you view it, but as of now, the best I can do is the template and a "pronunciation" heading. Every time I try to remove the pronunciation heading, it shows that message. So, do you know how to solve this problem? Thanks. Also I don't know what the zh-new template is for. Could you give me an example? Thanks. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:55, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Entry 熄灭 looks fine, I have only removed "Pronunciation" L3 header. I have recreated the entry with {{subst:zh-new}}. I get no warnings. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:00, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
This is obviously an edit filter that looks at both the edit and the type of account, so admins may be exempted. User:Kephir has been working with the edit filters recently and may know something about this. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:22, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I ran into the same problem at 淩亂 (thus, the simplified form is still in the old format). I hesitated to leave a message because the problem was already known, but I figured that I should at least notify of 淩亂's existence (and verify that it's not a problem exclusive to the user above) —umbreon126 07:20, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

@Umbreon126: What problem, sorry? 淩亂 is a variant (traditional). I have removed the Adjective header. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:28, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
Attempting to save 淩亂 as a simple "'Chinese' header + zh-see" results in the message replicated above by Mar vin kaiser.—umbreon126 07:32, 19 January 2015 (UTC)
I see, may be it's to do with your account restrictions. An exception should be added somewhere, not sure where. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:35, 19 January 2015 (UTC)


Че-то у меня большие сомнения, что warren в указанном случае следует переводить как кроличий садок. Если смотреть на значения, то там вообще нет указания на что-то сделанное руками человека. А значение вынесенное в заголовок перевода вообще рекурсивное, и не понятно что они имели в виду.... Сам не осиливаю, передаю старшему по званию :-)--Nataraj (talk) 09:18, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Спасибо за доверие, постарался оправдать :). Там отсутствовало одно английское определение - "an enclosed piece of land set aside for breeding game, especially rabbits", которое именно и переводится как "кроличий садок". Добавил определение и переводы на русский, посмотри. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:42, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Russian verbs as 'nouns'Edit

Hello Anatoli,

I was wondering if you could tell me if there is such a thing as Russian verb acting like nouns, like what gender would they have? I am not a linguist, so forgive my weird formulation of the question. What I mean is this: is it possible for example to say я интересуюсь читатем/читатью? Or maybe я занимаюсь говоритем/говоритью. My feeling says this is very weird, but is it grammatically even possible to do this and treat verbs as nouns? Thank you, 17:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

No, such transformation doesn't happen. A verbal noun or just related noun is used for each verb. They often end in -ание/-яние/-ение (-ние is sometimes contracted to -нье) but not necessary. So, читать - чтение, говорить - говорение, писать - писание. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

太帝, 刑天, 精衛Edit

Hi Anatoli, do we have a Chinese mythology category? I can't seem to find it. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

We do have Category:zh:Mythology, I don't know if we need to split it by the origin, it seems OK just to use this one. Creating new category is not so straightforward now, though. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:27, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
I just created it, and changed Module:labels/data so that {{context|Chinese mythology|lang=zh}} will categorize to Category:zh:Chinese mythology. If there are other entries than the ones mentioned here that already have that text in a context, a null edit will force them to add the new category.
Adding topical categories is actually easier than it looks: if you go to a topical category, you'll see an [edit] link next to the text at the top of the category. Clicking that link starts you editing the module for that category. The only tricky part is finding a category that would be similar enough to use the same module- I started from Category:zh:Mythology. I copied the section for "Greek mythology" where "Chinese mythology" would go in alphabetic order, and changed parts of the text where appropriate (see this diff). There shouldn't be a problem if you copy the whole section and only change things within the delimiters. Of course, the stakes aren't as high when you edit the Module:category tree submodules: a mistake would only mess up the categories served by that submodule, and you would still be able to see all the entries in those categories in spite of any errors displayed. An error in Module:labels/data would have more far-reaching effects- maybe even causing module errors in all entries with {{context}}, {{cx}}, {{label}}, and {{lbl}}. For that reason, I would recommend just adding the category to the category tree submodule and adding the category to entries by hand if you aren't completely comfortable with module editing. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much for your help. ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:59, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


Can you explain your behaviour? --Derbeth talk 12:35, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Behaviour? Maybe you should explain how you left a term without a single category and with no standard template? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:55, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Do you think this entry should be in the same categories as normal words? This is a misspelling, not a legitimate entry. What is the purpose of providing declension and derived forms for a word that does not exist? --Derbeth talk 13:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. If a term merits an entry, it needs to be properly categorised, especially if a term is attestable. That's what we do with misspelling, archaic or alternative forms, etc. E.g. Category:English_misspellings. If you disagree with the practice, you can question it in the Beer parlour. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:13, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I can see this now, but entries there are constructed in a different way than yours. For example amatuer is categorized in such a way that it is kept separate from legitimate entries and it does not include any information except that it is a misspelling (no pronunciation, no plural form, no derived words). --Derbeth talk 16:59, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
amatuer and миньет are not equivalent. миньет is not a misspelling. It is abundantly attested, has a different pronunciation, several derived terms and is even found in dictionaries, e.g. in Епишкин Н. И., Исторический словарь галлицизмов русского языка, 2010. It is true, that this form is proscribed by certain authorities, but in English Wiktionary we include and describe even such terms. --Vahag (talk) 18:28, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Ok. --Derbeth talk 20:57, 11 January 2015 (UTC)


Hey. I'm a little confused. Why are we adding additional Devanagari characters which aren't used in Hindi to the Hindi transliteration? And why is the module for transliteration being "possibly" used for other languages? Why not create a module for each language? Did I miss something? --Dijan (talk) 05:46, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean ळ or थ़? The first one I picked up from a Hindi Wikipedia. The other was added later. They don't hurt and if a text doesn't contain them, no harm is done. If a module works for more than one language, why not? According to User:DerekWinters it will work for Marathi, why duplicate? You can also talk to User:Wyang It's nothing new. It can be renamed, though. You can help the efforts, I'm stretching my knowledge here (and I'm no Lua guru) but I haven't spent my time on it, to be honest. Module:bn-translit for Bengali is very raw, I just started it and it won't work just yet but characters need to be checked/added. I may help with test cases from my phrasebook and other sources. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:58, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
I don't just mean the two characters you mentioned, but rather all the additional character User:DerekWinters added to the module. My opinion is that templates and modules should be language specific, not script specific. It's not duplication if each language has its own rules. For example, Rajasthani never uses the "r+virama" sequence and always prefers the usage of a full "r", which just like in Hindi can represent either the "ra" or just the consonant. But, the rules are not as clear in Rajasthani as they are in Hindi. Is someone going to figure out how to fix the transliteration of the anusvar to conform to the appropriate nasal sounds? Another problem with this is that it's hard to tell whether the ansvar (in Hindi) represents a true nasal vowel or simply stands in for a regular "n" or "m", as often it does. Also, I know nothing about Lua nor am I willing to mess with it. --Dijan (talk) 06:22, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
In my opinion, if letters are ever used in the language (not in quotes in another language), they can be included. There is no plan to use the module for Rajasthani, just for Hindi and Marathi. It would either require separate language in the module or a copy. I'm not sure why you're asking about additional letters. Do you see a problem? I believe Wyang is going to work on anusvār issue but I can't really say much. We need to add some test cases. I have asked if, e.g. हैं (haĩ) should be "h͠ai" or "haĩ" (currently automatic as "haĩ"). We have now discussions split all over the place - see User_talk:DerekWinters#Bengali_transliteration_module, User_talk:Wyang#Module:hi-translit.2Ftestcases. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:31, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
In that case, none of the additional characters added by Derek (including your ळ or थ़) are used in Hindi, unless quoting another language, such as Sanskrit. --Dijan (talk) 06:38, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
I may be wrong but quoting Sanskrit in a Hindi sentence may be appropriate. It's not the same as quoting Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian ј in a Russian sentence, is it? As I said, I see no problem there. If they are not used, they will never be transliterated. They can removed, I have no strong objections but check with DerekWinters too. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:47, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
In Hindi, q, x, ġ, z, ž, ṛ, ṛh, f all get used. If we include Marathi, ḷ and ṟ get used, with ḻ seeing some dialectal usage. But I agree, θ and ṉ do not get used at all. However, I also believe there is no harm in leaving it in there, especially if other languages do use the module like Dogri (which sees θ used). DerekWinters (talk) 09:20, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
In that case, the module should be renamed. Also, I know that for some languages that the modules override any manual input regarding transliterations (or that's what I remember). Can we keep the option to still enter transliterations manually which will override the automatic transliteration, just in case? I'm sorry. As I stated, I know absolutely nothing about Lua and I'm not willing to mess with it. --Dijan (talk) 00:05, 14 January 2015 (UTC)
We can rename, once we established what languages it's used for. There's a separate module for Sanskrit. The Hindi (Marathi) module is enabled but it can be overriden manually because in override_translit in Module:links does not include Hindi. IMO, Hindi can be transliterated 100% automatically, when all issues addressed (schwa dropping, anusvār, etc.). Lacking nuqtā shouldn't be a problem. If people write गरीब (garīb) instead of ग़रीब (ġarīb) or फिल्म (philma) instead of फ़िल्म (filma), then the transliteration will show what's actually written graphically. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:15, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


Hi Anatoli, is there a way to get the pinyin in the example sentence to display as Léi Fēng rather than LéiFēng? ---> Tooironic (talk) 16:11, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Please ask Frank. Sorry, I don't know how. I had an example sentence mixed with English words, which needed spaces in Chinese and pinyin. Now I don't remember, which entry it was. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:42, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
OK, will do, thanks. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:50, 18 January 2015 (UTC)


Is this a real Chinese term? If so, could you add the Pinyin (and other romanizations if needed)? Japanese user Asahiko entered it. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 23:09, 19 January 2015 (UTC)


I noticed that you changed the pinyin of 漢語大字典 from "Hànyǔ Dà Zìdiǎn" to "hànyǔ dà zìdiǎn." Why was this? WikiWinters (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Because it's not a proper noun in Chinese. Proper nouns are place, company and people's names. Chinese pinyin is often overcapitalised. Languages (漢語 is hànyǔ), demonyms (中國人 is zhōnggúorén), days of the week, month names are common nouns. There's no 100% agreement on capitalisation of some cases among dictionary publishers and editors here but I'm just trying to be consistent. Some terms need to be moved to lower case. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:03, 22 January 2015 (UTC)
So, 中國人 is zhōnggúorén and 中國 is Zhōnggúo? WikiWinters (talk) 16:50, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Yes. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:03, 23 January 2015 (UTC)


Please let me know if I have formatted the pronunciation note correctly here. I think it is worth including as many people get confused about it, native and non-native speakers alike. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:51, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

I see no problem there but has two readings - jiàn has the eunuch or imperial office sense. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:12, 25 January 2015 (UTC)


Hey! I forgot about an old discussion that I had on the Commons talk page of the Stroke Order Project, but here it is. I know you're busy, but could you take a look? I'm fairly certain that and are both Chinese characters. Here is a stroke order animation I found for 卍, and here is one for the kanji equivalent. WikiWinters (talk) 20:01, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

These are definitely Chinese characters, as they can be entered using Chinese IME, but they may not be of Chinese origin, you may want to ask User:Wyang about the etymology. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:55, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
@Wyang: I summon thee. WikiWinters (talk) 22:27, 26 January 2015 (UTC)
Please see Swastika. They are auspicious symbols in Buddhism and were adopted in Chinese writing after Buddhism spread to China. Empress Consort Wu, who invented a bunch of characters, gave them the pronunciation of "". Wyang (talk) 02:06, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

對稱, 對稱性Edit

Just letting you know I've modified the pronounciation for these entries. AFAIK duìchèn is the standard pronunciation in the mainland, but I've added duìchēng as a variant since moedict lists it. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


Hi. I'm just wondering whether the template has been fixed or not. And is the "subst:" necessary?Fumiko Take (talk) 14:18, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi. It probably doesn't need fixing but may use some enhancements. I've just made [[soóc]] with

{{subst:vi-new||[[shorts]] {{gloss|pants worn primarily in the summer that do not go lower than the knees}}|ee=From {{etyl|en|vi}} {{m|en|shorts}}.}}

Please check. I think User:Wyang to make any improvements. It's a time saver, if you learn to use, it'll become second nature. Yes, "subst:" is necessary. Unlike other accelerated templates, this template uses longer names for parts of speech, e.g. proper noun, adjective. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:03, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
@Fumiko Take: For Sino-Vietnamese words it's quite easy, I have recreated [[ấu trùng] with this code {{subst:vi-new||[[larva]]|h=幼蟲}} (it defaults to nouns, so the first parameter after| is blank). Then I added category Category:vi:Baby animals with Help:Gadget-HotCat. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:10, 29 January 2015 (UTC)
Thank you.Fumiko Take (talk) 03:42, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
@Fumiko Take: You're welcome. I've made Viễn Đông using {{subst:vi-new|proper noun|Far East|h=遠東}}, then tweaked the header manually, pls note "proper noun" parameter. Do you mind making [[hủ tiếu]], linked on Wikipedia to kuy teav? I don't know if it's Sino-Vietnamese and Hán tự if it is. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:05, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
It is claimed on the Vietnamese wikipedia that the reading is derived from Cantonese. Nothing surprising, because we have borrowed some other words on food and cuisine from Cantonese. The Sino-Vietnamese reading is "quả điều".Fumiko Take (talk) 06:37, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
You said the template didn't need fixing, but I've still found the problems with entries of French etymology. The phrase "Sino-Vietnamese" keeps coming up somehow.Fumiko Take (talk) 06:50, 30 January 2015 (UTC)
Please use |ee= instead of |e= or |h=. See the phim example at {{vi-new/documentation}}. Wyang (talk) 06:52, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I also gave the "soóc" example above. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:01, 30 January 2015 (UTC)


Wouldn't the pinyin be split since it contains three compounds? Or is the entire phrase one big compound? WikiWinters (talk) 20:01, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Since this is a word, I have removed the split, and "zhǔyì" is usually attached to the word directly with no space. The components are split in the hanzi box to show the etymology only. There's no 110% error-free consistent rule about but I'm trying to be consistent about what we do here. In 心肌梗塞 pinyin is split: "xīnjī gěngsè" but it may as well be "xīnjīgěngsè". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:38, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Russian impersonal sentences in plural past tenseEdit

Hello Anatoli,

I was wondering whether you could tell me what happens to impersonal sentences in past tense, when plural. I believe it's like мне было холодно. What happens when you want to say 'we were cold'? Is it then нам было холодно or нам были холодно? Also, kind of the same question: what happens with все? Все были/было холодно? Thanks in advance. 20:21, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

While I don't know Russian, my guess is that since such sentences literally mean "it was cold to me", the plural would be "it was cold to us". So the subject of the sentence is still the impersonal singular "it", while the person who is describing their coldness is in the dative case (indirect object), hence I think "нам было холодно" is correct. The same principle can be applied to "all" or any other thing that might say it's cold, so it would be the dative form, всем: всем было холодно "it was cold to them all". At least that is how I would judge it, but Anatoli can probably confirm. —CodeCat 20:52, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Confirmed. Good job, CodeCat! "Всем было холодно" - "Everybody was cold."
The future tense follows the same pattern - "Мне/нам/всем будет холодно" - "I/we/everybody will be cold". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:26, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks guys! I also realized I might have asked the wrong question, because is this the same as when I say...мы были больны? Is that correct or should it go in the dative? 21:36, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

No, this is not the same. The impersonal sentences use neuter singular forms and the subject in the English sentence is not a subject but an object of a sentence. The structure of "I am sick" is the same as English. Short adjectives are preferred here (only nominative), the future tense requires the instrumental case:
Я бо́лен/больной́, мы больны́/больны́е.
Я был бо́лен (less common: больны́м), мы были больны́ (less common: больны́ми).
Я буду больны́м, мы бу́дем больны́ми. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:44, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Опять, большое спасибо за помощь! 18:02, 6 February 2015 (UTC)


Hi. Are you sure the form in Belarusian for address with the informal T-form is вы́каць? The entry for "subject pronoun: the person being addressed" at [[you#Translations]] suggests it should be something along the lines of ты́каць, right? --biblbroksдискашн 16:42, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course, thank you, fixed. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:56, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

How to translate?Edit

Dear Atitarev,

could you tell me how to interpret the following question? I do not really know what to make of it: 'Какие отношения в семье у родителей?' Is it asking me how I was treated by my parents or is it something else? The question is isolated like that. Thanks, 22:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

It means "What are the relationships like in the parents' family?". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:18, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


The Chinese here is definitely a typo for 漁夫. Would you be able to verify the Korean? ---> Tooironic (talk) 05:35, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Korean is 漁夫 or 漁父. Sorry, I'm on a wikibreak in Paris till about 5th of March. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Ah OK no worries. How's Paris? I was gonna ask you out for coffee, I'm in Melbourne til the end of the month. I'll be back in July though, spose we can catch up then. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:39, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Paris is great, even in winter (very mild). Yeah, we can catch up, when I come back, great idea :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 15:54, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm flying back on Thursday! Where are you now? ---> Tooironic (talk) 09:17, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
We'll be back to Melbourne on the 3rd of March only. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 16:50, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

For your enjoymentEdit

Since you are on a peaceful vacation, let me introduce you to Template:sa-verb-pres that I made. It is the very first verbal conjugation template for Sanskrit, albeit it is very small. See भवति, हन्ति, अस्ति, and वदति for the application. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 10:03, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Pizza in ArabicEdit

There is no standard pronunciation for the word. In one country, there are many pronunciations and many possible spellings. However, بيتزا is the most common. The pronunciation depends on the speaker's education, caution in pronunciation and his audience. In Egypt, the possible pronunciations are: [ˈbedzæ, ˈbetzæ, ˈbidzæ, ˈpidzæ, ˈpiːtsæ]. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 01:40, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

That's fine, only I don't see why you removed diacritics "بِيتْزَا", which does not contradict any of the pronunciations, as with any loanword, which can have diacritics, even if the pronunciation is irregular. The IPA and variant spellings can be added to the future entry. (I can't edit in full capacity, as I am on leave and don't have access to a desktop computer). -Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:49, 26 February 2015 (UTC)


Hi Anatoli,

I was wondering whether you could answer some questions about Russian. Do you say 'без чего' or 'без ничего'? Does a колокол have a звон or something else? Sorry for the awkward wording. Finally, is it okay to say 'это трогает твою душу'? Does that mean to 'touch' in the same way as in other languages, like English? Thank you, 23:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

"Без чего" is a question (without what?) or a relative pronoun collocation (without which). "Без ничего" is "without nothing". The exact meaning depends on the context.
"Колокол" is a "bell", usually large, a smaller bell is normally called "колокольчик" (diminutive form).
Yes, трогать/тронуть also have this sense of "touch". "Moving (emotionally) is "трогательный" (entry is currently missing). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

binomial nomenclatureEdit

Would you mind checking the Japanese and Korean translations for this entry? They look dubious to me, since scientific namebinomial nomenclature. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:40, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, this topic is not my cup of tea. You're right, the translations are wrong, I replaced them with {{trreq}}. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:53, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

sorry, I'm lateEdit

Note my changes to the Mandarin translation (对不起 is too strong in tone to be used in this case). ---> Tooironic (talk) 16:21, 10 March 2015 (UTC)

"CEDIC dictionary is no authority."Edit

What do you mean by this? I googled "cedic," "cedic dictionary," and "cedic chinese dictionary," and nothing of relevance came up. --WikiWinters (talk) 22:03, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I misspelled, it's CEDICT. It's used in various tools, word processors, pop-up dictionaries (plug-ins), it's created by community and anyone can add entries there. So, it's full of SoP terms, which normally would not be included in published dictionaries. My Perapera Chinese plug-in (on Mozilla Firefox) uses that as well. The Japanese equivalent (created earlier) is called EDICT. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:15, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm terribly sorry.Edit

I'm terribly sorry about this перед самым. I think I based it too much on my grammar book. But it's great to see you fixing my mistakes, but at the same time, I'm feeling awful that you're doing too much of fixing my mistakes. Once again, I apologize. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 05:09, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

No need to apologise. It's OK. You're welcome to ask and experiment, I'll continue checking your edits, if you don't mind. You'll be safer if you support your entry creation using some dictionaries. [18] is not bad but not perfect, there are some SoP's there. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:15, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The good news is that I'm following your advice. Yandex Slovari is now my favorite Russian-English dictionary. I made new entries with the help of YS thanks to you. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 05:42, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

Is there a Russian p?lenk-?Edit

I'm looking for an etymology for Estonian põleng (fire). Several Slavic languages seem to have words resembling this with a related meaning, like Slovak páliť. But Russian would really be the only possible source for an Slavic > Estonian loan, so I wonder if there are any words in Russian that have a structure like p?lenk-. The ? would be a vowel, probably ы as the Estonian õ resembles that somewhat closely, but it could be something else like the Slovak á. —CodeCat 23:33, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

I can only think of пали́ть (palítʹ, to burn (transitive); to shoot), which has cognates in probably all Slavic languages. I'll make the entry later. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:10, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
Note also etymologically related Russian поле́но (poléno, chopped log used for burning), Lithuanian pẽlenas (offener Feuerherd), Estonian põlenu (burnt), Russian палёный (paljónyj, burnt). --Vahag (talk) 08:05, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


I saw Category:Japanese terms spelled with 珠 read as じゅ in Special:WantedCategories, and started to create the category. Then I noticed that there was no じゅ reading at , and that the only reading there that was remotely applicable was しゅ. Before changing {{ja-kanjitab}} at 念珠, though, I checked the edit history and saw that it used to be marked as rendaku as I was about to do, but you removed that in this edit: (diff). I don't speak Japanese, so I'm not about to revert someone who does without checking first: is there some reason that this isn't a straightforward example of rendaku? I should also mention that Category:Japanese terms spelled with 珠 read as ず is also unsupported by the readings at , but there seems to be more to it than just rendaku. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:46, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: Thanks, fixed ねんじゅ reading, sorry, careless mistake. Yes, it is rendaku. As for ねんず, I've marked it as irregular. You may want to double-check with User:Eirikr. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:02, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Looks good provisionally. (I'll get around to splitting the readings out later; I'm a big opponent of multiple readings on a single headword line.) FWIW, ju would be the rendaku-ed version of the kan'on reading shu. The nenzu reading is the less-common pure goon reading for the word (also with rendaku on the second character's straight goon reading of su). Nenzu is less common, but still common enough that the Mac OSX IME offers up the kanji 念珠 when typing in nenzu. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:51, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Adding Notes to templatesEdit

Hello, I am in the process of developing a verb template for Upper Sorbian. I want to add notes at the bottom of a verb conjugation table as in Note 1 for Russian носить (nositʹ), but I can't figure out how to do it. Could you show me how? Vedac13 (talk)

@Vedac13: Hello. You can include <small>NOTE TEXT</small> at the bottom of the table, see {{ru-verb-1-impf}}. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:56, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

better late than neverEdit

Note my changes to the Chinese translation. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:43, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic: Carl, why CHANGE instead of just ADDing new translations? 遲到總比不到好迟到总比不到好 seems idiomatic and common. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:29, 19 March 2015 (UTC)
Because the idiom refers to taking action, not literally being late. ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry.I can't.Edit

Just delete it if you have to. Thanks for your message. Yin May Lwin (talk) 13:30, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

abstract vs habitual aspect / dynamic modality in describing verbs of motion in Slavic languagesEdit

I've noticed that the qualifier habitual aspect / dynamic modality has been used in place of concrete in the qualifiers for some of the entries for verbs of motion in Slavic languages. Is that a recent change? I refer you to the translation section of the English verb run for examples. Is that description now preferred over abstract? Vedac13 (talk) 15:34, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

@Vedac13: Thanks for letting me know. No, this has to change back to the way it was and the editor punished!:) I haven't gone through the edit history to see who did it. Pls change if you can or I'll change later.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 21:54, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Naughty editor! :) I'll change it back wherever I come across it.Vedac13 (talk) 15:46, 25 March 2015 (UTC)


Is this also used as an interjection? I heard some exclamations in videos that sound a bit like it. —CodeCat 21:16, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

@CodeCat: Not too common but possible, it's similar to "oh, heaven(s)!" - "о, не́бо!" or "о, небеса́!". To me, it sounds like a translation from foreign languages, rather than native exclamation but I'm not 100% sure. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:02, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I could have misheard. It sounds a bit like "niba(t)" which I figured might be "nebo". —CodeCat 22:17, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I can't think of anything else. I think /ˈnʲebə/ could possibly be misheard as "niba". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:20, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Question regarding phonetic pinyinEdit

Why do we have phonetic pinyin alternatives for (take a look at the "expanded" pronunciation section in 一點兒, for example), but not for ? Both 一 and 不 have differing pinyin depending on the preceding or succeeding words' tones, yet only 一 has a phonetic pinyin option. This is at least according to my knowledge, so correct me if I'm wrong. --WikiWinters (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, are we supposed to use the phonetic pinyin variations when we're giving the pinyin for characters in example sentences for entries, or do we just use the regular pinyin? Thanks. --WikiWinters (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

We are supposed to give nominal pinyin, not phonetic. As for 一 and 不, I agree with you but you should ask Wyang. Both characters are often transliterated as yī and bù regardless of the tone sandhi, it depends on the conventions, we could adopt one or the other. It's minor, anyway. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
@Wyang: Thoughts? --WikiWinters (talk) 23:27, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Please see Category:Mandarin words containing 不 undergoing tone sandhi. Wyang (talk) 03:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
@Wyang: But what I'm wondering is why there is this category for 不, yet not a bracketed phonetic pinyin section next to every term containing 不, like there is with 一 in the case of 一點兒, etc. --WikiWinters (talk) 17:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
Could you give me an example? Wyang (talk) 20:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
@WikiWinters:. Yes, please. The phonetic pinyin IS shown for tone sandhi involving both 一 and 不, e.g. expand the pronunciation section for 不要, just like 一點兒, toneless and erhua variants. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:11, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, sorry about that. I just checked and I was wrong. --WikiWinters (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
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