Last modified on 14 April 2014, at 16:57

Talk:구름

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EtymologyEdit

Cognate with Japanese くも (kumo, "cloud") and Chinese (yún, OC *ɢʷɯn, "cloud")?

Definition of (yún, OC *ɢʷɯn) in Hanyu Da Cidian:

  1. “雲”的古字。
    《戰國策‧秦策四》:“楚燕之兵雲翔不敢校,王之功亦多矣。”
  2. 周旋;回旋。
    《詩‧小雅‧正月》:“洽比其鄰,昏姻孔云。” 毛傳:“云,旋也。”
    《管子‧戒》:“故天不動,四時云下而萬物化。” 尹知章注:“云,運動貌也。” 劉勣補注:“云,周旋也。”
  3. 指旋歸,歸附。
    《左傳‧襄公二十九年》:“晉不鄰矣,其誰云之?”杜預注:“云,猶旋,旋歸之。”
  4. 說。
    《書‧微子》:“我舊云刻子,王子弗出,我乃顛隮。” 陸德明釋文引馬融云:“云,言也。”
    三國魏吳質《在元城與魏太子箋》:“聊以當覲,不敢多云。”
    宋范成大《吳船錄》卷上:“又北十里至伽耶山,云是佛說《寶雲經》處。”
  5. 有。
    《詩‧大雅‧桑柔》:“為民不利,如云不克。”
    王念孫《廣雅疏證‧釋詁一》:“言如有不克也。”
    《公羊傳‧文公二年》:“曷為以異書?大旱之日短而云災,故以災書;此不雨之日長而無災,故以異書也。”

......

  1. (the ancient form of "", "cloud")
     
  2. (to gyrate, to whirl) -- this seems to be source of 구름 too: 구르다 (gureuda, "to roll (over and over)") and the nominalisation suffix (-m).
     
     
  3. (to return, to submit to another)
     
     
  4. (to say, to speak) -- cognate with (yuē, OC *ɢʷad, "(obsolete) to speak"). Resembles Korean 가로다 (garoda, "(obsolete) to say"), with exactly the same meaning as 曰.
     
     
  5. (to have) -- cognate with (yǒu, OC *ɢʷɯʔ, "to have"). Resembles Korean 가지다 (gajida) ~ 갖다 (gatda, "to have").
     
     
     


Hbrug 22:14, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Are you also comparing the native Korean terms with other language groups such as the Manchurian/Tungusic ones and Siberian/Altaic ones, or even Mongolian? For basic vocabulary, it seems that Korean may have some elements of these languages. But many of these may not be well documented (and many kingdoms in these areas have come and gone, and not much of their languages survives). 71.66.97.228 23:40, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
The Turkic root for "cloud" is *bulu: Turkish bulut; The Mongolic root is *ḕŋV: written Mongolian egüle. Korean gureum ("cloud") may be compared with Manchu xelǝmǝn (spoken)/xelme (literary) ("shadow"), Turkish gölge ("shadow"), Yakut külük ("shadow"), Uyghur kölɛŋgɛ ("shadow"), which, when compared with Tibetan sgrib pa ("to cloud, dark"), sgril ba ("to roll, whirl"), dkrigs pa, ‘khrigs ("to come together like clouds"), seems plausible. The Tibetan word for "cloud" is sprin (no cognate in Tibeto-Burman or Chinese). The Tibeto-Burman root for cloud is *r-muw ("cloud, sky, fog", comparable to (*mrɯː, "dimness, haze") or (*mogs, "fog")), which looks awfully like Proto-Mon-Khmer *mhuəl ~ mhəl ("cloud"): Viet. mây ("cloud"). Hbrug 00:16, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Korean 구름 (gureum, cloud) seems to be the gerund form of verb 구르다 (kureuda, to roll, to wind, intransitive; alt form 굴다, stem "geul-"). This appears the be related to Japanese 繰る (kuru, to roll, to wind, transitive; phonetic root "kur-"), and the morpheme ころ (koro) related to "rolling", as seen in words such as ころころ (korokoro, onomatopoeia for "rolling") or 転ぶ (korobu, to fall over, to tumble).
  • More speculatively, there's a semantic cluster in Japanese that might be related.
  • (kumo, cloud)
  • (kura, darkness)
  • 暗い (kurai, dark, dim, adj.)
  • 暗む (kuramu, to darken, to dim)
  • 暗る (kuru), obsolete for 暗れる (kureru, to become dark of mood)
  • 暮る (kuru), obsolete for 暮れる (kureru, to become dark in the absence of light)
  • (kuro, the color black)
  • 黒い (kuroi, black, adj.)
  • 黒む (kuromu, to blacken)
The color black in Korean is 검정 (geomjeong); the second syllable here looks like it might be a suffix from (jeong, really), suggesting that 검 (geom) is the underlying morpheme; this seems to appear in the Korean word for spider, 거미 (geomi). The Japanese for spider is similar, 蜘蛛 (kumo), identical in pronunciation to the word for "cloud".
  • (Japanese sources give various etymologies for kumo "spider", none conclusive. Theories include, among others, 1) an extension from 籠る (komoru, to hide inside something); 2) (kumo, cloud), from the way the webs look a bit like clouds; 3) an extension from 組む (kumu, to assemble, to grapple with), from the way spiders weave their webs and catch things.)
The Korean morpheme 검 (geom) also seems related to (gom, bear, the animal), which is also an obsolete word for "hole". This is similar to the Japanese (kuma, bear, the animal), which is paired with (kuma), a word of the same reading that means "hole, dark place, recess; shadow".
  • (Japanese sources are again undecided, listing possible derivations including, among others, 1) (kuma, a dark hole, a recess), from the way that bears hole up in dens; 2) 組む (kumu, to grapple with), from the way bears will attack; 3) (kuma, a recessed or bent shape), referring to the crescent-moon coloration pattern common to some bears.)
-- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:53, 5 June 2012 (UTC)