Talk:ladder

Tea room discussion

Note: the below discussion was moved from the Wiktionary:Tea room.

The sense of a ladder in tights, stockings, etc is completely missing. While it is probably covered as a noun by the second sense, there is also a verb sense (and an adjective sense at laddered that we need), these would probably justify a (sub)sense of the noun. I would just add all these, but I can't come up with any decent definition.

Additionally, an American on a completely unrelated forum gave the impression that it isn't used in Leftpondia? Thryduulf 00:58, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't speak for all of Leftpondia, but I for one don't know of such a sense. Is it like a (deprecated template usage) run (in a sense that we're currently missing)? —Ruakh_TALK 01:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It would certainly seem to be like a run, but it must be a bit different, because it seems to refer to materials other than nylon. I wonder whether the term ladder has carried over in the UK to nylon stockings whose "runs" don't look like ladders. As I understand it more-expensive nylon stockings were slow to penetrate the UK market in the shortage-ridden years after WWII, so the term ladder may have hung on longer there. This might be a question to ask a woman who was 20 or older in 1955. DCDuring TALK 02:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added the noun and verb sense - my misses says it doesn't happen much these days. SemperBlotto 07:18, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"Ladder" as Japanese calque

The following discussion has been moved from the page Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2016/August.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Sense 5 of ladder states: "In the game of go, a sequence of moves following a zigzag pattern and ultimately leading to the capture of the attacked stones." The 2003 quotation states that the term ladder is derived from "(shicho, 'she-ko' in Japanese)". I am thinking that this sense should be moved into its own etymology section, as a calque of the Japanese word. However, what is that word? It appears from the translation section that ladder in Japanese is 梯子 (“hashigo”), not "shicho" or "she-ko". Could someone knowledgeable about Japanese (and go) help? — SMUconlaw (talk) 13:37, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It is シチョウ according to Appendix:Go jargon and Ladder (Go). --Einstein2 (talk) 14:26, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Does that literally mean ladder? — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:21, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't know if it should be considered a separate etymology. It's still the same word ladder, only a new meaning was added. —CodeCat 15:32, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Assuming the etymology is a translation of a Japanese word, wouldn't the etymology slightly different from the main one? (I guess a note could be added to the existing "Etymology" section without creating a new section.) — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:35, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

But the word used in the translation is just ladder. —CodeCat 15:38, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I'm confused, but isn't that what a calque is? A literal translation of a foreign term? — SMUconlaw (talk) 17:48, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

There are several different calques, according to w:Calque. One kind of calque exists only for foreign terms with multiple senses. In this case, the foreign term has one or more common senses that are translated with a particular native term, but it also has one or more additional senses that are not present in the native term. The calquing occurs by adding these additional foreign senses to the existing native term. In this case, the common Japanese word for "ladder" (whatever it is), is translated with simply ladder in English. However, this Japanese word has additional meanings that ladder does not, and so ladder has these additional meanings added to it. No new word is derived, therefore there is no separate POS header with a separate etymology. —CodeCat 18:24, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

• Japanese for ladder (as in, two long vertical supports with rungs, used for climbing to reach higher places) is 梯子 (hashigo). The hashi- portion is cognate with 端 (hashi, “edge”) and 橋 (hashi, “bridge”), and derives from an ancient root referring to the gap between two things.

The Japanese term シチョウ (shichō, /ɕit͡ɕoː/) in reference to this maneuver in go is also variously spelled in kanji as 四丁 (literally “four nails”), 征 (irregular reading, literally “subjugate”), 翅鳥 (literally “flying birds”), and 止長 (literally “stopping length”). I suspect the first spelling represents the original derivation.

Ultimately, the English term ladder in reference to go has nothing to do with the original Japanese term, so this is not a calque.

For those interested, see more detail in Japanese at the Japanese Wikipedia article on シチョウ, and at the Weblio compilation page for this term (see the topmost entry for the list of alternative kanji spellings).

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:01, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

• Also, FWIW, the 2003 quotation's attempt at phonetics ("shicho, “she-ko” in Japanese") is just plain wrong -- the ⟨ch⟩ in the romanization is decidedly not pronounced like an English k. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:12, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Great, thanks for clarifying. I'll add "[sic]" to the quotation. — SMUconlaw (talk) 19:29, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Also stairs?

Various sources state that "ladder" or "ladderway" is US Navy and Marine Corps jargon for a flight of stairs. Obviously hard to attest because the two types of thing tend to be mentioned in very similar contexts. Equinox ◑ 12:17, 1 December 2021 (UTC)