User talk:Hazarasp/Martin123xyz

Macedonian participles

Hello,

Could you edit the source of Module:form_of/cats so that Macedonian adjectival, adverbial and perfect participles such as ишаран, боејќи and тагувано can be automatically assigned to the appropriate subcategories without the contributor having to specify cat2= in the header or in the definition? These are the only three types of participles in Macedonian and the pages that I have provided as examples are correctly categorized. I wanted to copy the code for Russian and edit it but the source is protected. Currently, {{head|mk|participle}} places the participles in a general category called Macedonian participles, but that's all. Martin123xyz (talk) 06:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 12:13, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your prompt help. Martin123xyz (talk) 14:00, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian Verbal Nouns

Hello, Could you make either {{verbal noun of|mk|X}} or {{inflection of|mk|X||vnoun}} assign the entry to the categories "Macedonian verbal nouns" and "Macedonian verb forms" (but not participles)? Currently, the latter is not associated with any category, whereas the former assigns the entry to "Macedonian verbal nouns" only, so I've been using it in combination with the headword-line template {{head|mk|verb form}} to achieve the desired results. The changes should only affect Macedonian, since other languages treat verbal nouns as lemmas. Thank you in advance Martin123xyz (talk) 13:55, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

I've edited Module:form of/cats so {{inflection of}} adds the correct categories; changing {{verbal noun of}} would've been much harder and messier. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 02:14, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I see that even though {{inflection of}} now adds the correct categories, verbal nouns are not listed as a subcategory of verb forms at Category:Macedonian verb forms. They only appear under "Macedonian nouns", but as they are hybrid categories (nominal morphology, partly verbal syntax, and exceptionless formation from verbs), I think they should appear in both places. Can this be fixed? Martin123xyz (talk) 09:40, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 12:08, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you again. Martin123xyz (talk) 06:07, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Fourth type of Macedonian participle

Hello,

It turns out that there is one more type of Macedonian participle needs to be added to Module:form_of/cats, labelled "л-participle" in the existing conjugation templates. Like the others, it needs to be categorized within Macedonian verb forms>Macedonian participles and will have its own forms (feminine, neuter and plural). It also needs to contain two subcategories, Macedonian imperfect л-participles and Macedonian aorist л-participles, which will not be treated as forms of each other (though each will have a feminine, neuter and plural form as can be seen at обои (oboi). I tried to create the categories myself, but they are not recognized by "auto cat" because they are language-specific and I don't know how to write the necessary code at Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/mk. Could you please help out with this? If the term "л-participle" does not work because it contains a Cyrillic letter, please use "active participle" in the code, as is done for Bulgarian. Martin123xyz (talk) 11:45, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

 Done. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 12:16, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the help. When I write {{infl of|mk|гази||f|s|impf|л|part}} at газела (gazela), the categories are now assigned correctly and the entry appears inside them, but the definition is displayed without a hyphen between the "л" and "participle" and the former is not clickable. Could this be changed so that "л-participle" is displayed as a single link, possibly redirecting to "participle" in the glossary? A possible workaround is to write {{infl of|mk|гази||f|s|impf|act|part}}, which still categorizes the entry as an л-participle, but the definition would then be inconsistent with the category. Martin123xyz (talk) 12:34, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

I could try and solve it, but I don't have much experience editing the appropriate modules and I feel that other editors may disapprove. It might be worth discussing the matter with another editor who's worked with Module:form_of. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 16:05, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello @Hazarasp and @Martin123xyz. In "Template:inflection of" under "Non-finite (less common)" there is a tag l-participle. Maybe we should use that? Or a new tag named л-participle to be added to the list? Gorec (talk) 19:33, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the reply. If other editors disapprove of the use of л-participle in the definition line, we can switch to "active participle" as I proposed initially, in which case the categories that you have created would need to be deleted. We could also use "l-participle", as suggested by User:Горец, but in that case, presumably we would be writing {{infl of|mk|гази||f|s|impf|l|part}} in the definition line and the same issue with the hyphen would recur, because the template prints each parameter as a separate word regardless of how the categories are named. In either case, I really don't think that we should keep the definitions as they are now, without a hyphen and a link, which is already incongruent with all other inflectional definitions. I addressed the matter in Grease Pit, giving editors an opportunity to express their view on "л-participle", but unfortunately, no one replied. Perhaps @Erutuon or @Metaknowledge could advise if we ping them directly? Martin123xyz (talk) 06:11, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

No. If we use the tag "l-participle" (or its shorcuts: l-ptcp, lptcp) the code will be {{infl of|mk|гази||m|s|impf|l-participle}} and the result is "masculine singular imperfect l-participle of гази (gazi)", see газел. Therefore, analogous to this, I suggested that a new tag "л-participle" be created. Gorec (talk) 08:46, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

In that case, I am in favour of "l-participle". I see no particular reason to keep the Cyrillic л. The forms in questions are also labelled l-participles in OCS conjugation templates even though OCS was written in the Cyrillic alphabet. Martin123xyz (talk) 09:03, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I've changed Module:form_of/cats and Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/mk to refer to "l-participles" rather than "л-participles". Should I go ahead and change Template:mk-conj-table too? Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 12:04, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for these latest changes. I updated the conjugation templates myself, as no special skills or permissions were needed. One last quibble: when I open the page Category:Macedonian_l-participles, the category structure at the top is displayed as "... Verb forms » Participles » L-participles", with a capital "L". Is this how it's supposed to be, even though regular capitalization rules generally do not apply to isolated letters used metalinguistically? Martin123xyz (talk) 12:18, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I've disabled the capitalisation. Note that I never consciously chose to enable it; it's automatically applied by default. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 16:50, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Can "masculine singular imperfect l-participle" and "masculine singular aorist l-participle" be defined as the basic forms and populate the category "Participles" rather than "Participle forms", which is only appropriate for the feminine, neuter and plural? It is possible to omit "m" and "sg", but the definition line for the basic form would then be inconsistent with those for the other three forms. Martin123xyz (talk) 12:25, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Until I changed it to work like you requested a few minutes ago, placement of participles into Category:Macedonian participle forms had nothing to do with {{inflection of}} or any part of the definition line. Instead, it was (and still is) related to the headword line; {{head|mk|participle form}} places the word into Category:Macedonian participle forms, while using {{head|mk|participle}} puts it in Category:Macedonian participles. This can be disabled, but doing so would be counter to Wiktionary common practice. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 17:25, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I didn't notice that the headword line said "participle form" rather than "participle"; I thought that the presence of gender and number specifications added газел to the category for participle forms. There is no need to disable any of the headword lines. Everything works fine now and I apologize for putting you through all this trouble. Martin123xyz (talk) 06:57, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

My comment probably came off much harsher than I intended; you shouldn't feel the need to apologise at all. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 11:18, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian misspellings

Hello,

Currently, the category Macedonian misspellings is indicated as a subcategory of Macedonian nonstandard forms, but misspelled entries are not actually assigned to the latter category on their respective pages. Consequently, there are fewer nonstandard forms (118) listed than misspellings (183), which is contradictory in light of the hierarchical relationship between the two categories. Could you please fix this issue? Thank you in advance. Martin123xyz (talk) 12:24, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

I think that's by design (compare Category:English misspellings vs. Category:English nonstandard forms). If you think nonstandard form categories should include misspellings, feel free to start a discussion at WT:BP. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 15:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. If it's by design, I think it can be left as it is. Martin123xyz (talk) 06:02, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian dialectal forms

Hello,

Could you advise as to whether the entries for прашуе (prašue), купуе (kupue) and пишуе (pišue) are formatted properly, with {{lb|mk|dialectal}} and {{nonstandard form of}}, or should some other conventions be applied? I tried using {{dialectal form of|mk}} and {{regional form of|mk}}, but no such templates seem to exist. If the dialectal word has no standard equivalent, I just use {{lb|mk|dialectal}} and write an English definition, but when there are minor phonological and morphological differences (in this case, we are dealing with dialectal verbs ending in the suffix -ue which regularly corresponds to standard -uva), I think it makes sense to have some template linking to the standard form, even though historically, the forms developed side by side and not from each other, such that the dialectal form should not necessarily be subordinated to the standard one, as it were. Martin123xyz (talk) 08:04, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

What you're currently doing (i.e. using {{lb|mk|dialectal}} and {{nonstandard form of}}) is what I'd consider standard practice. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 09:39, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the confirmation. Martin123xyz (talk) 10:25, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian iterative verbs

Hello,

I have added an iterative label to Module:labels/data which populates the category "Macedonian iterative verbs". However, the only iterative verbs that are being assigned to it are those where I added the label after creating it, whereas there are dozens of others where the label was added earlier before it was functional. For those to be assigned to the category, I need to open their respective pages, perform null edits, and save them. This occurs even though I used {{auto cat}}. How can the problem be resolved? Thank you in advance. Martin123xyz (talk) 11:22, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

I recall having similar problems when editing Module:labels/data a year or two ago. I believe the solution was simply to be patient; the categories ended up filling themselves after a few days' waiting (the exact timeframe will of course vary). Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 11:57, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice. The category now seems to have filled up as you anticipated. Martin123xyz (talk) 13:29, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

On the subject of defining grammatical labels consistently across languages, which you brought up below, the description of iterative verbs does not correspond very well to the grammatical and semantic status of the Macedonian verbs included in the corresponding category. Perhaps these verbs should be named differently. I have described how they work here, but unfortunately, my post has not attracted much attention. Do you have anything to say about how to label these iterative/secondary imperfective verbs? Personally, I would call them "iterative", reserve "frequentative" for verbs like "to knock", "to hum" or "to hop", and write Macedonian-specific definitions for these terms, since each language has its own grammar with its own distinctions, sometimes quite idiosyncratic ones, and forcing its grammatical categories into a universal mould can lead to the obscuring of important details.

Besides, the definition of terms like "iterative" and "frequentative" is not only a problem on Wiktionary - these terms, along with "continuous" and "continuative", for example, are already used with unstable meanings in the literature, as discussed by Bybee, Perkins & Pagliuca (1994) The Evolution of Grammar. I believe that this further justifies writing Macedonian-specific definitions for them. If this is done, we do not have to worry about whether "iterative", "secondary imperfective" or "deperfectivised telic" is more revealing or faithful to the function of the verbs in question, because users will be able to click on the category and read a detailed Macedonian-specific definition which will resolve any preliminary doubts they have about the term. Martin123xyz (talk) 08:28, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian inchoative verbs

I have created a new category for Macedonian inchoative verbs using {{auto cat}}, but the description incorrectly reads "Macedonian verbs that indicate that an action is soon to begin". I want it to say "Macedonian verbs that indicate the beginning of an action or event" instead, which is in line with the usual meaning of "inchoative" in linguistics. For something about to happen, the term "prospective" is more likely to be used, but there is no such category of verbs in Macedonian. Could you therefore please amend the description of Macedonian inchoative verbs?

Currently, the only other languages for which a category of inchoative verbs exists are Afar and Latin (unless the other ones are in the process of being generated latently), and the description does not apply to Latin very well either, since many Latin inchoative verbs simply have the -sco suffix without any semantic contribution and many others indicate a beginning, like the Macedonian ones I have in mind. It might therefore be desirable to change the description for all languages. Thank you in advance. Martin123xyz (talk) 13:47, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done; I've changed it for all languages as you suggested (I don't believe it's possible to change the description just for one language; even if it was, perpetuating that kind of inconsistency would probably be a bad idea). 02:43, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for making the change. Martin123xyz (talk) 07:20, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian delimitative verbs

I also want to create a category for Macedonian delimitative verbs, defined as "Macedonian verbs which indicate that an action or event is performed or takes place briefly or to an otherwise reduced extent." For the use of the term, see Dickey, S. A Prototype Account of the Development of Delimitative по- in Russian, to give just one example. Could you help write the code for the category and make it possible for me to populate "Macedonian delimitative verbs" by adding {{lb|mk|delimitative}} beside the definition? I tried using {{auto cat}} but it led to an error, presumably because the term "delimitative" has not yet been defined anywhere. Martin123xyz (talk) 13:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 02:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Martin123xyz (talk) 07:30, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

More Macedonian Aktionsarten

For further categorization of Macedonian verbs by Aktionsart, I believe that the following categories should be created:

• Macedonian completive verbs: Macedonian verbs which refer to the completion of an action which has already commenced or which has already been performed upon a subset of the entities which it affects.
• Macedonian intensive verbs: Macedonian verbs which indicate that an action is performed vigorously, enthusiastically, forcefully or to an otherwise enlarged extent.
• Macedonian distributive verbs: Macedonian verbs which indicate that an action or event involves multiple participants, usually as the grammatical subject in the case of intransitive verbs and as the grammatical object in the case of transitive verbs.
• Macedonian semelfactive verbs: Macedonian verbs which indicate an instantaneous or punctual action or event, which is understood to occur only once unless otherwise specified.

Could you please create categories and labels for these too? There is room for much finer distinctions, even within the categories you have already created, and a detailed overview of Slavic Aktionsart can be found in Nagaitseva & Romanov, 2021, The Aktionsarten as a Lacuna for RFL Learners (written in reference to Russian, but applicable to other Slavic languages as well to varying extents). However, the Macedonian Aktionsart system is reduced and barely any research has been conducted into it, so I think that for the time being, the categories that I have come up with are enough. Martin123xyz (talk) 10:32, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done; you'll have to use {{lb|mk|intensive verb}}, not {{lb|mk|intensive}}, as many non-verbal entries already use labels like {{lb|ru|intensive}}. Additionally, a category for semelfactive verbs is already defined in Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas; let me know if you think the description that's currently set needs adjustment. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 14:15, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the help. I think that the description of semelfactive verbs is mostly all right. I have qualms about the part which says that they are telic, since telicity implies having an endpoint to be reached, which is somewhat contradictory with the notion of instantaneity and the impossibility of recognizing internal subdivisions. However, I think that regardless of whether we call these verbs "telic" or "atelic" (per Wikipedia), we would not be misleading users or inspiring them to use them incorrectly. Martin123xyz (talk) 15:03, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Category order

Hello,

After taking a look at what you had done to create new Macedonian verb categories, I added two myself, "repetitive verbs" and "excessive verbs" (for the term, see for instance, Ricca D. 2005 Cumulative Exponence Involving Derivation). However, they do not appear in the same position in the category list at the bottom. Whereas "Macedonian repetitive verbs" appears before the thematic vowel category (Macedonian verbs ending in -а/е/и) (see пребои (preboi)), just like "Macedonian intensive verbs" and the other ones you created (see изнатепа (iznatepa)), "Macedonian excessive verbs" appears after it (see се прејаде (se prejade)). Is the difference due to the fact that I decided not to have an "excessive" label (because it may be confusing to many readers) and only write "Category:Macedonian excessive verbs" inside the code? Thank you in advance. Martin123xyz (talk) 12:17, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

You would be correct there. Categories appear in the order they're defined, so categories that are added through labels will appear first because labels come before (directly added) categories. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 02:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your reply. Martin123xyz (talk) 14:22, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Searching for labels

When you were creating the category for Macedonian intensive verbs, you pointed out that you could not define {{lb|X|intensive}} to populate categories of the type "X intensive verbs" because it had already been used in Russian entries for non-verbal entries. Can you tell me how you found those entries (unless you had already come across them earlier and had remembered them), so that in future, I can check myself whether the labels I am defining have already been used unofficially? I tried using the advanced search but I don't know how to search inside labels. When I write {{lb|ru|intensive}} inside the "Pages with these templates", it says that there are no results matching my query. I am asking because I have recently defined "frequentative" as a label for frequentative verbs and I am afraid that it might have categorized non-verbal entries as verbs in some language. Martin123xyz (talk) 14:22, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

To begin with, you shouldn't need to redefine {{lb|LANG|frequentative}}; a quick search turned up no non-verbal entries with the label.

In the future, you can use a regex search using the insource: filter if you become concerned that a label you want to define might be already used. Specifically, I'd use insource:/\{\{lb\|..\|LABEL\}\}/, where LABEL is the potential label name you want to check. That will only cover labels for languages with two-letter language codes; if you're really concerned, you'll want to do another search covering languages with three-letter language codes; this will need to use insource:/\{\{lb\|...\|LABEL\}\}/. A regular expression covering all labels is not recommended; any such expression will tend to time out because of the amount of strain it puts on the servers. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 16:37, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the instructions. What can I write to search for labels which follow another label, e.g. entries where "frequentative" appears after "transitive" or "intransitive" (without writing out all possible that might occur in the first position individually)? Martin123xyz (talk) 09:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

You'll have to use a looser search (something like insource:/LABEL\}\}/) to capture those, as the preceding label can be of any length. Sometimes this will result in a few false positives (i.e. non-label templates which contain the label name), but I believe this is unavoidable. This is because more precise expressions are necessarily going to be more complex, meaning that they put more strain on the server. Of course, you might be able to figure out something that avoids false positives without putting undue load on the server; my efforts were hardly throughgoing. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 10:24, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I think that the solutions you have come up with should suffice for my needs. Martin123xyz (talk) 08:17, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian verbs with no aspectual pair

Hello,

Could you please edit {{mk-verb}} so that "pf=-" can display "no perfective counterpart" and "impf=-" can display "no imperfective counterpart"? With the way it works now, if I write a dash, a link to - gets generated, which is not appropriate (see значи (znači)). It is possible to leave this parameter empty, but that does not allow me to differentiate verbs which simply have no aspectual pair in Macedonian grammar from the ones for which I have not yet added the aspectual pair. Thank you in advance. Martin123xyz (talk) 10:27, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done; note that I've set it up so it displays "no imperfective" or "no perfective" (without "counterpart"), as that seems to be more consistent with general Wiktionary practice. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 10:55, 11 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I still don't see the effects of the change: тежи (teži) and значи (znači) still display a hyphen with a link. Do I need to format the headword line differently so that "no imperfective" and "no perfective" will work? Martin123xyz (talk) 13:21, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

It should work now; I must've forgot to save the requisite edits to Module:mk-headword. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 15:43, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you - it does indeed work now. Martin123xyz (talk) 09:35, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian collective plurals

Hello,

Could you please edit the inflection template so that the combination of {{inflection of|mk|X||col|pl}} can populate the category "Macedonian collective plurals", as a subcategory of "Macedonian noun forms"? An example of the relevant kind of entry would be воѓе. Thank you in advance. Martin123xyz (talk) 07:31, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

 Done Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 08:25, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Martin123xyz (talk) 10:54, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Searching in module outputs

Hello,

Could you help me figure out how to search for strings of characters in the output generated by {{mk-IPA}}? For example, if I want to find all Macedonian pages where the IPA transcription contains the sequence "raˈs" (such as раселува (raseluva)), how should I fill in the advanced search table? Choosing "Macedonian lemmas" as a category and writing raˈs or /raˈs/ in the search bar does not work. Adding insource: does not help either, which makes sense, since the IPA transcriptions are not part of the source code, but rather outputs. Martin123xyz (talk) 21:16, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

You can't search all the pages in a language's lemma category at once; as the error message says, that would return too many (sub)categories. I've had to devise a few annoying workarounds for this, but for your purposes, you can just choose to search in Category:Macedonian terms with IPA pronunciation. To guarantee a precise match, I'd recommend putting quotes around your search term (e.g. "raˈs" Hazarasp (parlement · werkis)

Thank you for the help. At first, this method did not work either. I didn't get an error message when I searched Category:Macedonian terms with IPA pronunciation, but I didn't get any relevant results either, because the search function did not detect substrings. For example, if I searched for "raspuʃtɛn", I got распуштен as a result, but when I searched for "raspuʃ" only, which is included in распуштен and распушти, I got no results at all. I solved the problem by using an asterisk to indicate an unspecified continuation of the string. Martin123xyz (talk) 11:15, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for not giving you better instructions; I probably should've done more testing. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 11:29, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Not at all; it was thanks to your suggestions that I was able to arrive at the right solution in the end. Martin123xyz (talk) 11:46, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Categorizing Macedonian nouns by inflection type

Hello,

I am thinking of categorizing Macedonian nouns by inflection type, i.e. mostly according to the way they form their plurals and their vocatives. Such categorization exists for Old English already, at Category:Old English nouns by inflection type, except that it is organized according to stem types. Macedonian also has Category:Macedonian verbs by inflection type, which is automatically populated by the conjugation templates. For nouns, I was thinking of the following categories:

Macedonian nouns with a fleeting vowel

Macedonian nouns with a fleeting "а" (these are Cyrillic letters between the quotation marks, even though they look identical to the Latin ones)

Macedonian nouns with a fleeting "е"

Macedonian nouns with a fleeting "о"

Macedonian nouns with final palatalization in their plural forms

Macedonian feminine nouns with vocatives in -е

Macedonian feminine nouns ending in a consonant

Macedonian neuter nouns ending in -о with plurals in -а

Macedonian neuter nouns ending in -е with plurals in -а

Macedonian neuter nouns ending in -е with plurals in -иња

Macedonian masculine nouns with plurals in -овци

Macedonian masculine nouns with plurals in -ови

Маcedonian masculine nouns with plurals in -еви

Some of these can be automatically populated by inflection templates. For example, Macedonian feminine nouns with vocatives in -е use a separate template unique to them ({{mk-decl-noun-f-e}}, and the same goes for Macedonian masculine nouns with plurals in -овци (among others). For these, I can edit the template so that it automatically populates the categories, just as in the case of verbs. For the others, I was thinking of manually adding invisible categories to the pages by opening them one by one (this seems easier than splitting the inflection templates and then changing them on the pages).

For adjectives, we also need:

Macedonian adjectives with a fleeting vowel

Macedonian adjectives with a fleeting "а"

Macedonian adjectives with a fleeting "е"

Macedonian adjectives with a fleeting "о"

Would you be interested in writing the code for these categories and make sure that they appear in the proper place in the category tree beneath "Macedonian lemmas"? I looked at the code at Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/uk, to see what has been done for Ukrainian, but it seems very complicated, much more so than the one I learned to use so as to create categories like "Macedonian inversative verbs".

Thank you in advance Martin123xyz (talk) 11:45, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done; I've created all the categories in the way you've suggested, with one exception: the names of the fleeting vowel categories don't have quotation marks surrounding the vowel (I believe having quotation marks there would introduce a inconsistency). Let me know if any mistakes have snuck in.

As for your categorisation suggestions, they seem fine for now; you can obviously always remove the manually-added categories later if you or someone else decides to rework the Macedonian noun templates. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 04:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for creating the categories. I agree with you about the quotation marks. I will let you know if I run into any issues once I start filling the categories. Martin123xyz (talk) 20:28, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Categorization by number of syllables

Hello,

I see that for some languages, words are categorized by number of syllables, e.g. for Albanian, Czech and Russian. Could you tell me what code handles this so that we can see whether it can be extended to Macedonian? When I open a page like Czech bychom, I don't see any manually added category in the code, and I don't think it's added by {{IPA|cs}} either, because when I added {{IPA|cs}} to a Macedonian page in test mode, it did not assign it to any category. I don't see anything specific to the languages which have categorization by number of syllables at Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/words by number of syllables either. I thought there might be a language-specific code for the languages concerned, but Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/cs does not even exist for Czech. Martin123xyz (talk) 09:09, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

These categories are in fact added by {{IPA}} and other templates based on Module:IPA (I don't know why it didn't work for you). To enable automatic categorisation by number of syllables for a language, you need to add the language code to the appropriate section of Module:IPA/data; I've added Macedonian there for you. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 11:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I have now created the categories for most syllable numbers and I hope that they will fill up automatically in time. I will be reediting many pages anyway to manually add inflectional categories, so those will get categorized by syllable number as soon as I save them. I am happy to see that {{IPA}} knows how to recognize Macedonian syllables with a syllabic consonant as their nucleus - I was afraid that it whatever code is used would only count pure vowels. Martin123xyz (talk) 11:53, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Is it possible to have {{IPA}} also categorize terms as oxytones, paroxytones and proparoxytones? If it knows how to count syllables, it can recognize vowels and syllabic consonants, and to determine the stress category, it just needs to count the vowels and syllabic consonants to the right of the stress mark. Martin123xyz (talk) 12:01, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

As you noticed, this is  done; by the way, you can suppress the categorisation with {{mk-IPA|no_stress=1}} if you ever find you need to. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 15:11, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for all of these additions. The categorization of Macedonian entries has now been greatly enriched. Martin123xyz (talk) 20:40, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I tried to use {{mk-IPA|no_stress=1}}, but I got the following error:

Lua error in Module:utilities at line 116: bad argument #1 to 'ipairs' (table expected, got nil)

It also occurs when there is a manual respelling, e.g. if I write {{mk-IPA|маши`на|no_stress=1}}, and it is precisely in such cases that I wish to suppress the categorization, namely where there is a nonstandard pronunciation generated through a manual respelling. If such pronunciations get categorized, the categories would be misleading, since users viewing them would not be able to see whether the pronunciation is standard or not without opening the page and reading the qualifier. Martin123xyz (talk) 13:23, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry about that; it should work properly now. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 13:47, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. I have now started using it successfully. Martin123xyz (talk) 20:58, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Fossilized case endings

Hello,

I would like to have a category for Macedonian terms with fossilized case endings. I see that Danish has Category:Danish fixed expressions with fossilized case endings, but this is too specific for Macedonian, where most fossilized case endings occur in single words (case forms of nouns reinterpreted as adverbs, e.g. горе (gore), "up", originally the locative of "mountain"). However, there are also a few expressions with fossilized case endings such as фала Богу (fala Bogu), "thank God". Could you advise as to where the Macedonian category should be created in the category tree, i.e. with what parents? I have created several new categories recently, following the model of the ones you created for me, but I don't know what to do with the one for fossilized case endings because it would not fall under "Macedonian POS by inflection type". Martin123xyz (talk) 10:28, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Placing it under Category:Macedonian terms by etymology makes the most sense to me. By the way, it would make sense to create a generic fossilised case-ending category (in Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/terms by etymology) rather than a Macedonian-specific one, as many other languages could benefit from one. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 11:03, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion. I have added the general category to the module and have created the category for Macedonian. Martin123xyz (talk) 14:41, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Stress in multiword terms

Hello,

Is there a way for the Macedonian IPA module to be modified so that multiword terms (identifiable by the presence of a space within them) are not assigned to any stress category? Currently, they seem to be categorized based on the number of syllables after the last stress mark, but this is not appropriate for multiword terms which contain multiple stressed words. For example, I don't think it makes sense for панорамско тркало (panoramsko trkalo) to be categorized as a proparoxytone just because the second word is a proparoxytone, whereas the first word is a paroxytone. If the stress on the first word were hypothetically secondary and the stress on the second one were primary, it would have made sense, but since the two stresses are actually on par, I don't think that the whole term can be assigned to a single stress category.

There is a complication, however: multiword terms which form a single phonological unit and have only one stress, as if they were one word. This does not occur only with clitics, but also with terms like кисело млеко (kiselo mleko), which is a single proparoxytone, although it composed of an adjective and a noun that are fully stressed in other contexts. Terms of this kind are essentially compound words which happen to be written with a space. However, they will not have a space in the IPA transcription, but rather a ligature. Is it perhaps possible for the module to refrain from assigning multiword terms to stress categories only when they have a space in the transcription rather than the title? If not, I can just manually categorize compound words like кисело млеко (kiselo mleko), and if it is not possible for multiword terms to receive any special treatment at all, I can manually suppress the categorization with no_stress=1 in all multiword terms that do not represent single phonological units. Martin123xyz (talk) 19:04, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

 Done; again, let me know if anything doesn't work properly. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 03:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the changes. Everything seems to work properly now. Martin123xyz (talk) 11:57, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian verb categories with missing content

Hello,

Until today, the three categories inside Category:Macedonian_verbs_by_inflection_type had more rudimentary content than other categories; for example, they did not display parent categories at the top or recent additions, and it was not possible to view recent changes. Their source code had the following nature:

{{catfix|mk}}

Macedonian verbs whose present forms have the ending {{m|mk||-е|tr=-}}.

[[Category:Macedonian verbs by inflection type|е]]

In order to bring them in line with other categories, I defined them at Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/mk and I replaced their source code with {{autocat}}. They now look the way they should and they contain the same pages as before. I have also checked that newly created verb entries are correctly categorized. Have I done everything correctly? I was thinking that perhaps the old code and the {{catfix}} template might have been related to some other code in some other module which remains to be erased. Martin123xyz (talk) 13:18, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Unless there's something that I'm missing, there shouldn't be anything outstanding, so you should be fine. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 06:44, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the confirmation. Martin123xyz (talk) 07:49, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Macedonian verb categories not moving

Hello,

I have come up with a categorization of Macedonian verbs by inflection type, as you can see here, and while refining the hierarchical structure, I changed the position of some categories, giving them different parents. In particular, I initially had Category:Macedonian athematic verbs as a subcategory of Category:Macedonian verbs by inflection type, but then I moved it under Category:Macedonian verbs in -е, upon realizing that there are no athematic verbs ending in other vowels. However, it still appears under Category:Macedonian verbs by inflection type. Furthermore, I created Category:Macedonian verbs in -ае, -ее, -ие and -уе under Category:Macedonian verbs in -е, but it did not work properly at first, probably due to a mixture of Cyrillic and Latin letters. After I retyped its name at Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/mk and inside the templates which populate it, I was able to create it successfully, and I can view it at Category:Macedonian verbs in -ае, -ее, -ие and -уе, but it is not displayed as a subcategory of Category:Macedonian verbs in -е. Is there something wrong, or do I need to wait a while for the two categories in question to appear in the right place, for the same reason that creating a page for a redlink does not immediately remove the page that contained the redlink from a redlink category (e.g. until today, Category:Macedonian verbs with red links in their headword lines still contained pages whose redlinks had become blue weeks ago)? In that case, it is possible that the categories will have already appeared in the right place by the time that you look at them, but currently, the issues are as I have described.

Could you also take a look at the overall categorization of Macedonian verbs by inflection to check whether there are any other issues? I am worried about the fact that many categories overlap. For example, испере (ispere) simultaneously appears in Category:Macedonian verbs in -е with -а- in the aorist, in Category:Macedonian verbs with a fleeting stem vowel and Category:Macedonian irregular verbs. This is because I felt that the first category is distinct from the latter two and I did not want to create numerous specific categories like "Macedonian verbs in -е with -а- in the aorist and with a fleeting stem vowel" to avoid overlaps. Moreover, Category:Macedonian verbs with a fleeting stem vowel is already a subcategory of Category:Macedonian irregular verbs, but I wanted for users to be able to view all irregular verbs in a single category and see their total number, because the subcategories of Category:Macedonian irregular verbs overlap (insofar as some verbs display multiple irregularities), giving the first impression that there are more irregular verbs than there really are. Do you think that this makes sense?

Thank you in advance Martin123xyz (talk) 15:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

The two categories you mentioned appear in the right places for me (Unless there's something I'm missing), so it appears you did need to wait. As for overlapping categories, what you've done seems perfectly sensible. There is ample precedent for this; consider how Latin sum appears in Category:Latin suppletive verbs, its parent Category:Latin irregular verbs and Category:Latin suppletive verbs. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 15:29, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for confirming. The problematic categories now appear where they should on my end too - as I suspected, the website needed some time to move them. Martin123xyz (talk) 16:07, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Macedonian relational adjectives from personal names

Hello,

Like other Slavic languages, Macedonian forms relational adjectives from personal names and uses them to describe nouns belonging to or otherwise associated with the bearer of the name in question. These adjectives fulfil the same functions as genitives in other languages, including English possessives in 's, but they are morphologically adjectives by virtue of their declension and their syntactic position. For example, "Ивановите очи" corresponds to "John's eyes", but "Иванов" is morphologically an adjective, with a plural ending and a definite suffix, such that it is in all relevant respects parallel to any other adjective, such as "blue". English also forms adjectives from personal names, like "Edwardian" and "Victorian", but they only refer to specific individuals of historical importance, whereas in Macedonian "the Victorian car" would be the car of any woman named Victoria just like "volcanic ash" can be the ash from any volcano. How can these adjectives be formatted on Wiktionary?

I have already created one entry for the kind of adjective under discussion, Билјанин, but I had to use {{infl of}} to display "relational form", even though I do not consider these adjectives to be inflected forms. Should I just write out "relational form of Билјана" without using any template? I looked at comparable entries in other Slavic languages but did not come upon satisfactory solutions. For example, Russian мариинский is defined as "Maria's" in the relevant sense, but this is not satisfactory where the underlying name has no English equivalent. I don't think that defining Билјанин as "Biljana's" or "Herb's" (literal translation) would do. Martin123xyz (talk) 12:58, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

The logical solution would be to use a template {{relational adjective of}}, after the model of e.g. {{verbal noun of}}; I can work on setting it up tomorrow if you want. In the meantime, I would suggest using {{infl of|mk|Билјана||relational adjective}}; this obviously cannot be a satisfactory long-term solution, as you don't consider relational adjectives to be inflected forms. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 14:33, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Please do set up the new template tomorrow. I will refrain from creating further entries for relational adjectives derived from personal names in the meantime. Martin123xyz (talk) 15:03, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done; note that the template's documentation is automatically created (see {{form of/fulldoc}}), so I have limited latitude in changing it. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 05:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for creating the new template. However, when I preview a page on which I have used it, the page is categorized in "Macedonian relational adjective", with "adjective" in the singular, even though there is already a category called Category:Macedonian relational adjectives, with "adjectives" in the plural and populated by {{lb|mk|relational}}. The latter category is a subcategory of Category:Relational adjectives by language, which the new template claims to be related to, so I don't see why there should be "Macedonian relational adjective". Martin123xyz (talk) 08:59, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

 Fixed. It was a mere typo; I should've been more attentive there. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 09:40, 26 January 2022 (UTC)