Last modified on 28 March 2008, at 19:59

User talk:Wakuran

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Again, welcome! Widsith 11:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

PIE rootsEdit

Hiya, I don't know how we missed giving you this welcome message for so long!

By the way, as you are a relatively inexperienced contributor here, I would be a little wary of reverting so much work from a very experienced admin as you did with Stephen's Cyrillic additions on the PIE roots appendix. Better would be to message him on his talk page to raise any concerns. Widsith 11:48, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I will, or at the talk page for the article. Didn't know he was experienced... =S Wakuran 11:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Afrikaans and Dutch sister languages?Edit

Where did you get that idea? Afrikaans is a very recent descendant of Dutch; it was considered a dialect of Dutch until after 1900. Robert Ullmann 12:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

But Dutch generally refers to Modern Dutch, Afrikaans is derived from older Dutch dialects, which doesn't exist anymore. Also, the grammar has been simplified and some words are different. I'd still prefer "akin to". I think the discussion should better be taken at the article itself, though. Wakuran 18:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Crimean GothicEdit

What specific templates did you have in mind here ? :) Maybe I can help in making (transfering from WP?) those. There is already Category:Gothic language, with entries written in Gothic script you know. Unfortunately with not too many entries.. --17:38, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I just meant having sufficient categories and such for adding entries. I tried making some categories on my own, but I'm not sure on if they need fixing. I'm not a frequent user here, so I'm not sure on which general procedures to follow, when adding entries for a new language. Wakuran 18:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, CG is clearly another language than G, and also all attested writing is in Latin, so I thought it could require its own categories. (I heard the Crimean Goths were illiterate, so there's no native writing attested. I'm not a historian, though, so don't quote me on that.) Wakuran 18:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The plan is to include all attested words, and an etymological section with probable cognates, except from the enigmatic "cantilena" (song) apparently no scholar has yet plausibly interpreted. Here are some sources I will use: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. Btw, does anyone think the language shouldn't be placed under "East Germanic"? Apparently it also showed strong West Germanic influence. Wakuran 20:20, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, apparently CG doesn't have separate ISO code, but is instead just classified as 'got'. I've noticed you already created Category:Crimean Gothic language. This could be potentially problematic because languages that don't have their own ISO code are usually first discussed before addition. I've encountered the same problem with Slovincian, whose couple of basic words I wanted to add, but unfortunately it's generically classified as a "Slavic language" so I restrained myself. However, there's no need to panic, because in the worst cases the category Category:Crimean Gothic language would be relocated from Category:All languages into Category:Gothic language, so don't be afraid that any of your work will be in vain!
You can freely add words whose meaning is doubtful. (I've recently added some Hittite nouns whose meaning is very speculative, but I did mark them as such in "Usage notes" section). The good thing with these ancient languages is that the everything attested merits inclusion, especially with these fragmentarily attested languages. For those, every recorded word is priceless.
You can categorize into both East and West Germanic. WP article on GC claims that the scholars reached no consensus on CG classification, so that seems as the most logical thing to do.
Entry on schuos, just keep an eye on WT:ELE format first (you use "Etymology 1", "Etymology 2".. when there are multiple etymologies present, and that shifts the nesting level of PoS headers by one - when there is only one etym. you place it in the same nesting level as POS sections). --Ivan Štambuk 20:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok thank you for the answer. I'll do some further work, so far, and hope someone will correct occasional errors. Wakuran 23:55, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Aha, I don't know any other etymologies for "schuos". I just copy/pasted the layout from another entry, thanks for fixing it. Wakuran 23:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

More on Crimean GothicEdit

First, let me take a second to thank you for your work in this language. Having said that, let me begin the nagging. First of all, since Crimean Gothic does not have its own ISO code, but rather is considered a dialect of Gothic, the language header should be Gothic, not Crimean Gothic. However, the fact that it's Crimean should still be noted, perhaps in the inflection line. Also, the etymology section, while good, is a bit wordy. Finally, since the word is only attested in Latin script, it should indeed be written in Latin script. Give me a few minutes, and I'll work on it a bit, and we'll see if we can't find something we're both happy with. Atelaes 03:17, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've made the changes to wingart. Please take a look and let me know what you think (just respond here on your talk page). Atelaes 03:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm, yeah. I realize the procedure, but I still don't think it's clear enough that the words are Crimean, and not biblical Gothic... Above, it was proposed that Crimean should be added as a sub-cat to Goth. Wakuran 13:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia article on w:Crimean Gothic also says that the language name of "Gothic" is based on ethnological rather than linguistic grounds. ISO 639-3 code on got is not for macrolanguage, but for individual language, i.e. for the language of Biblical Goths, which was extinct a thousand years before those CG words were attested. From w:Gothic language:
A small dictionary of more than eighty words, and a song without translation, compiled by the Fleming Ogier Ghiselin de Busbecq, the Habsburg ambassador to the court of the Ottoman Empire in Istanbul from 1555 to 1562, who was curious to find out about the language and by arrangement met two speakers of Crimean Gothic and listed the terms in his compilation Turkish Letters. These terms are from nearly a millennium later and are therefore not representative of the language of Ulfilas.
The relationship between the language of the Crimean Goths and Ulfilas' Gothic is less clear. The few fragments of their language from the 16th century show significant differences from the language of the Gothic Bible, although some of the glosses, such as ada for "egg", imply a common heritage, and Gothic mena ("moon"), compared to Crimean Gothic mine, clearly indicates that Crimean Gothic was East Germanic.
I don't think it would be a good idea to intermix those two..I've read EncycloPetey's comments that there are already some aboriginal languages of Australia included that don't have their own ISO code, so this wouldn't been a precedent. ISO code rule is useful for filtering conlangs and similar silly experiments, but for actually attested languages that don't have clear connections with living (or extinct) ones, it might be counterproductive to apply it. --Ivan Štambuk 14:18, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I agree. I think. 80-90 words sounded reasonable to include, but I'm awaiting a decision before I do any further work here. Also, of course, if anyone would know more about Germanic philology, older cognates, esp. Biblical Gothic and has the font installed, please improve the entries. Wakuran 15:19, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, how about this for a compromise? Put the L2 header as Gothic (L2 headers really need to be standardized, or the bots start flipping out) with a Crimean specification on the POS line. Categorize all the words into a "Crimean Gothic POS", which resides in "Crimean Gothic language" which resides in "Gothic language". Does this work? Atelaes 22:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it should probabyl go under Gothic, since apparently SIL International considers CG a "Gothic dialect" :( Since CG doesn't have that many words recorded, maybe even a POS categories are an overkill? I would put them in the regular Gothic POS categories, but with a context label in the headword line that would categorize them all into some subcategory of Category:Gothic language. That appears to be the most common approach used for dialects here. --Ivan Štambuk 23:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, that's an excellent idea. Atelaes 23:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, make an example page for me to follow (maybe by editing an older article), and I'll add the corpus during the month. I guess a sub-cat dialect classification is reasonable. Wakuran 01:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
wingart has been so formatted. Atelaes 01:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay. What do you think about sub-catting the parts of speech, as well, such as "Crimean Gothic nouns", as a sub-cat under "Gothic nouns" or something? I must go to bed now, soon, anyway, but I'll get around to fix this later. Wakuran 01:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Or would it be better to skip that, since there are so few words in the CG corpus, anyway? Wakuran 01:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Ivan that it's probably best to just put them all in one C.G. cat, as there are so few words. Atelaes 01:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, I'll start on the work later this month, then. Thanks for the info. Wakuran 01:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Another thing, you think the title should still be "Gothic", regardless of the categorization? Wakuran 01:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the L2's (language headers) are particularly finicky. Atelaes 02:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at how I have formatted wingart. This is how we normally mark dialectical variants in languages. You can use a {{context}} template to indicate a particular region or dialect in any language. It is then possible to set up a category that the words are placed into automatically to match. The category in the case should be Category:Crimean Gothic, not Category:Crimean Gothic language, because it is not a separate language but a regional variation of a language (c.f. Category:Canadian English and Category:Mexican Spanish). --EncycloPetey 05:17, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay. The entries are formatted now. Thanks for your info. Wakuran 12:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

WT:ELEEdit

I’d expect something more than just this. You have read the page haven’t you? There is no language header, no POS header, no inflection, no nothing. H. (talk) 15:25, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, this entry was unacceptable as you left it. We don't really use "stub" here at Wiktionary. If you don't have time to clean the entry up (quite understandable, not everyone has infinite time), please just tag it with {{rfc}}, and if you can add it to WT:RFC. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
RFC, alright, I take a note until next time. Thank you. Wakuran 19:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)