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January 2014Edit

Orange linksEdit

I seem to recall that we used to have the ability to turn language-specific links which existed, but didn't have the target language, orange. We still seem to have the function at WT:PREFS, but it's greyed out. Can anyone tell me if this feature still exists somewhere, and if not why it was killed? Many thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:51, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

It does exist. Add importScript('User:Yair rand/orangelinks2.js'); to your vector.js or whatever you use. --Vahag (talk) 23:36, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! I think this is very useful. --WikiTiki89 23:38, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks Vahagn. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:48, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it is very useful. Helps me catch mistakes all the time. --Vahag (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Name of the two past tenses in Romance languagesEdit

I noticed that {{ast-conj-ar}} names them "preterite imperfect" and "preterite indefinite". But for Portuguese, Spanish and Catalan we use the terms "imperfect" and "preterite", and the latter is called "past historic" in French and Italian. This is a bit strange and could be confusing, especially the Asturian template which uses the word "preterite" with a different meaning from its close neighbours. What are the most common names for these tenses in English? —CodeCat 00:41, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Adding Klamath words—copyright-related tips?Edit

I would like to add words for the Klamath language. My source would almost exclusively be Klamath Dictionary by M. A. R. Barker, which is copyrighted 1963 by the Regents of the University of California.

What limits should I keep in mind when using copyrighted sources like this? Is it fine to just add the words and give their English translations? How about to copy the usage examples given by the source dictionary? When should I, and when needn't I, cite the source? — Äþelwulf (talk) 19:45, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I was bold and added a handful of words, like woksʔam and maqlaqs. Is it all on the up-and-up? — Äþelwulf (talk) 14:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
It looks fine to me. In fact, there's no record at the U.S. Copyright Office website that the copyright on this book was renewed, in which case it's in the public domain in the U.S. now anyway. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Cool! I can't find the corresponding Klamath Grammar or Klamath Texts (by the same author) in that database either. I called the University of California Press to confirm the status of all three books. They said Dictionary and Texts are in the public domain, because both were published in 1963 and the copyrights were not renewed. Yippee!
However, because Grammar was published in 1964, they told me it was still copyrighted. My hunch is that they believe the copyright was automatically renewed by the Copyright Renewal Act of 1992. Is it necessarily true that Grammar is still copyrighted, despite not appearing to be in that database? — Äþelwulf (talk) 22:43, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
It sure looks that way. According to "Copyright Term and the Public Domain in the United States", works published from 1964 to 1977 with a copyright notice are under copyright until 95 years after their publication date. So while Dictionary and Texts are public domain, Grammar won't be until January 1, 2060. Them's the breaks! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:47, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Should I change my name?Edit

I’m not really interested in liggies any more. I mean, they’re fancy and all, but I would rather focus on broader topics. I assume people have to copy and paste my name (or, Hell forbid, use alt codes) every time they need to talk about me, but it’s probably more common to cheat and write AE(&OE) or whatever. I’m asking because I don’t feel like I am invested enough in this project to warrant another name change, but you lot might disagree with that. So, if you want me to change my name, now is the time. But if you keep referring to me by obsolete usernames, I’m gonna be pissed off. (Hey, I’m just saying.) --Æ&Œ (talk) 18:49, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Changing your name is not necessary for changing your focus. As for typing your name, I generally copy and paste all names anyway just to avoid misspellings, so yours isn't any different. --WikiTiki89 19:04, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
What's the matter with AE as a nickname? DCDuring TALK 20:04, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
I get the feeling that it’s a nickname chosen purely for convenience rather than taste. --Æ&Œ (talk) 20:19, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
What makes you hate your old usernames, Pilcrow? I'm just wondering. -- Liliana 20:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
‘Pilcrow’ is stained with bad experiences from my time as a 17‐year‐old. It was an awful, embarrassing time in my life, when I was constantly depressed, needlessly dramatic, unfunny, and needlessly serious. --Æ&Œ (talk) 20:50, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
You're Pilcrow?! I had no idea. Ƿidsiþ 20:58, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
@Æ&Œ: Nicknames ARE often chosen for the convenience of the user and used without great regard for the nominee's feelings or preferences. Orthography is the least respected part of a name or nickname. Unpronounceable names don't even have spelling pronunciation as a guide.
I think one could have an arbitrary, difficult name and accept whatever people make of it or have a simple name and expect people to use it. It seems unreasonable to have an arbitrary, difficult name and demand that people jump through the hoops that you have set for them. DCDuring TALK 21:12, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Sure, you can change your name. Just don't do it as often as Wonderfool, and you should be fine! --Back on the list (talk) 13:53, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

{{tø}} recommendation needs to be changedEdit

Wiktionary:Entry layout explained#Translating words without an exact equivalent in the target language says:

When there is no single word equivalent in the target language, use {{}} with embedded wikilinks for the individual words.

But {{}} redirects to {{t}}, which advises

{{t-}}, {{t0}}, and {{}} are legacy templates that now redirect to {{t}}. They should not be used, and will most likely eventually be removed.

Plainly Wiktionary:ELE should be changed, but as a Wiktionary (though not Wikipedia) newbie I'm not the one to do it.--Thnidu (talk) 07:19, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

How are Chinese traditional and simplified characters encoded?Edit

Are they encoded differently, with different Unicode code points, or is the difference decided some other way? —CodeCat 02:51, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

They have different Unicode points. As far as I know, most simplified characters are also traditional characters and in the simplification process the more complicated characters were merged with the less complicated characters with the same pronunciation. But since I know very little about Chinese, you should probably wait for someone else to answer. --WikiTiki89 02:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I mainly wanted to know whether our use of script codes is key in keeping them apart. But it seems that it isn't, so I wonder if we can get rid of Hans and Hant and use only Hani. It probably would simplify things ( :) ) without really affecting anything. From your answer, I do understand that we can't use script detection by code point to keep them apart, if we wanted to. —CodeCat 03:06, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Identical Japanese, Chinese simplified and traditional characters (also Korean hanja and Vietnamese Hán tự) may look differently because of the fonts used but you can't really use script detection for those characters. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:23, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Unicode actually has a variation selector mechanism for tagging which variant of a CJK glyph you prefer to display. Generally it's only for very minor variations: where if the wrong form is used the reader probably wouldn't even notice. I don't know how widely used it is, or how it relates to simplified characters. Pengo (talk) 07:24, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Template:plural ofEdit

Is there any way to change/specify/modify where the internal link generated by the template points to, other than the default? Specifically, would there be any way to make the link "no" on the page noes point to no#Noun, rather than no#English? It Is Me Here t / c 23:00, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that would be a good idea. What if someone else adds another noun section, or a translingual section, or names them differently? And how would you link to the noun section of another language when there's already an English noun? It creates more problems than it solves, and I'm not sure what the benefit of linking to the noun section would be anyway; linking to the English section should be good enough? —CodeCat 23:36, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
That problem could be avoided with {{senseid}} or similar. --WikiTiki89 23:39, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
That too. So there isn't even a need to link to the noun section, when you can link to the exact sense you want. —CodeCat 00:01, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, but the question was "how?", and you still haven't answered that. --WikiTiki89 00:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
{{plural of}} has an id= parameter that you can use to link to the specific sense. —CodeCat 00:26, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
CodeCat: no already has more than one heading called "Noun" in read mode, but the URLs are things like no#Noun_4, so I don't think that's a problem. The point of it is that "noes" is the plural specifically of the noun ("a no" or what have you), rather than being the plural of the particle/whatever. It Is Me Here t / c 00:34, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
If you actually want to make it clear to the user that it's only the plural of that specific sense, you shouldn't be using section links to do that. You should add a gloss to the definition, like {{plural of|no||(the sense of "no" that it's the plural of)}}. Section links don't convey information; you can hardly expect users to look at the URL to see what you mean. —CodeCat 00:38, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
English doesn't have plurals of anything other than nouns anyway (not counting pronouns). --WikiTiki89 00:41, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

English wordsEdit

How can I get the list of all English words this Wiktionary has? Without derived/conjugated forms, without translations to other languages... I cannot find a category (or category tree) which answers the question. For example, ru:Категория:Английский язык now contains all presented English words. Infovarius (talk) 11:11, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

At the moment you can't. But I agree that it would be a good idea to be able to. --WikiTiki89 15:54, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
Maybe something like Category:English lemmas. Or we could use Category:English parts of speech for that purpose, but we should probably rename it anyway. —CodeCat 16:31, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
de.Wikt and fr.Wikt have de:Kategorie:Englisch and fr:Catégorie:anglais containing all English words, which I think is useful. (Technically adept users can search the database for all instances of ==English== to obtain the same list, but less adept users can't.) I suppose a category for lemmata only would also be useful, but it would be inherently greyer. We would have to decide whether alternative forms were lemmata or not, and whether alternative spellings were, and alternative capitalizations, etc (and separate from our decisions would be the expectations of people who might think they could use the count of how many pages were in the category as a count of how many English lemmata we defined). But that isn't a reason not to have such a category. - -sche (discuss) 20:04, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
We would probably want to make a clearer separation between lemmas and inflections in that case, though. Maybe bring the "form" categories outside the "part of speech" tree altogether, and into its own tree. —CodeCat 18:38, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
A parallel "forms of" PoS category structure, as CodeCat suggests seems best. I don't see why we would want a category for the single purpose of calculating a number in real time that we use rarely. Is there a way that we could calculate the sum of language-PoS category totals periodically, even daily? I understand the function that does this is "expensive". The totals could be on some readily available page for all languages or the top 100 or.... Can we do chron jobs for such things? DCDuring TALK 15:35, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for mentioning Category:English parts of speech. So I suppose that the number 347359 (see source) provides first approximation to the answer. @DCDuring: why we would want a category for the single purpose of calculating a number in real time? Because it is the most simple and important statistics to external person about Wiktionary content. --Infovarius (talk) 14:14, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
There are other reasons why such a category might be useful in real time. But I dispute that your number is good count of what we might really want. Some possibilities for "what we want" are:
  1. A number calculated on the same basis as the total in selected other dictionaries, especially the OED, OED online, MW 3rd, MW 2nd, MW Online, Century 1912.
  2. The number of lemmas
  3. The number of inflection lines
  4. The number of unduplicated English words that are either inflection lines or redlinked English terms.
Assuming you are trying to count lemmas, the number you have calculated would undercount insofar as it would count a page with multiple PoSes with different "etymologies" (ie, homonyms) only once. It would overcount to the extent that it includes inflected forms as well as lemma forms.
At a more basic level, your count includes members of Category:English intensifiers and Category:English interrogatives, which are not PoS classes, misspells "postpositions", and excludes entries in Category:English proverbs and Category:English phrases. If it had included all member of Category:English phrases it would have included a good number of phrases of the kind not found in dictionaries, but rather found in phrasebooks. Lastly, taxonomic names are not included in any English PoS, but are arguably used in English. They are a large subset of Category:Translingual proper nouns.
Given the lack of clarity as to the total desired and the inaccuracies mentioned, producing an number in real time is just silly. Also, if one wants to compare us with other dictionaries, one would need some estimate of the number of entries in those other dictionaries. DCDuring TALK 17:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Just to note, this discussion has been continued at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2014/January#A category for all words or lemmas in a language. —CodeCat 17:38, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

How to enter phrases with personal pronouns or possessives?Edit

In English, we use "one" for these in the lemma form. But not all languages have such a word. I'm struggling to find out where to put the translation of in one's opinion into Dutch. There's no equivalent for "one's". —CodeCat 13:52, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

What does Dutch use if it needs a possessive that refers back to men? German uses sein to refer back to man; does Dutch not use zijn that way? Alternatively, Irish uses the second person singular for it; could Dutch do that? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:01, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
It could, but I think most people nowadays feel zijn to be too strongly masculine, so they would probably use zijn/haar or similar. Occasionally, people use a dative possessive instead to work around it, but that doesn't work in this case. —CodeCat 14:04, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
What do other dictionaries do? --WikiTiki89 16:19, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't really know. I suppose we could use zijn as a placeholder, but every entry that does that would need a usage note. Maybe a templatised one. —CodeCat 00:41, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
In Chinese we tend to put ellipsis (...). ---> Tooironic (talk) 21:24, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

What accent do Alex Kingston and Gwendoline Christie have?Edit

What is the accent that Alex Kingston (who plays River Song in Doctor Who) and Gwendoline Christie (who plays Brienne of Tarth in Game of Thrones) have? Youtube has plenty of videos of them speaking if you haven't heard them before; they use the same accent in-character as out-of-character. Based only on the fact that they're from Surrey and Sussex, respectively, I guessed it might be Estuary English, but then I listened to Youtube videos of people speaking Estuary English and I'm not sure if it's the best match. - -sche (discuss) 21:52, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Category for tagging bad language names in translationsEdit

I've been running into "Translations to be checked" categories in Special:WantedCategories that refer to languages for which we have no language code. This is because User:Kephir's xte app wraps language names it doesn't find in our modules with the {{ttbc}} template.

This seems like a really bad idea, since non-existent categories don't show up anywhere except for Special:WantedCategories and as a redlink at the bottom of the tagged entry, so it's entirely possible for these to go unnoticed.

That raises the question, though: what categor[y/ies] should be added to these entries? Some may be typos, variants, or bad guesses, but others are lects that we don't treat as separate languages, or have been subdivided into multiple recognized languages. Do we have a cleanup category for unrecognized lect names? Chuck Entz (talk) 22:38, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

There is Category:Language code is name/ttbc/unrecognised. —CodeCat 22:45, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
I obviously wasn't paying attention. It would seem that ttbc is picking up on these and adding them to a cleanup category. It still seems wrong to be adding them to a non-existent "Translations to be checked" category. Either xte should be adding a cleanup category directly and not using ttbc (what I would prefer), or ttbc should avoid adding the "Translations to be checked" category if it's already adding a hidden cleanup category that covers this class of errors. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:03, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

Language code for Old CatalanEdit

Should this have a code? Or should it be grouped under Old Occitan/Provençal? —CodeCat 03:22, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Old Occitan says, "The Catalan language diverged from Old Occitan between the eleventh and fourteenth centuries", sourced to "Riquer, Martí de, Història de la Literatura Catalana, vol. 1. Barcelona: Edicions Ariel, 1964", so I'd say any Catalan terms from earlier than that period could be considered Old Occitan. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:57, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
The article mentions the vowel /y/, which doesn't exist in Catalan and has remained as /u/. It also says: "[o] apparently raised to [u] during the twelfth and thirteenth centuries; but the spelling was unaffected, hence flor /fluɾ/ "flower"." This also didn't affect Catalan, which still has /o/ there (many Catalan dialects raise unstressed /o/ to /u/, but not all of them do). So it seems that the phonological divergence must have happened before then, when /u/ and /o/ still had their Vulgar Latin pronunciations. —CodeCat 17:26, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
But since we deal in written language, the issue for us is more whether there were significant differences in the written dialects before the 14th century or so. If not, I'd use the Old Occitan label and tag words with {{context|Catalan dialect}} as necessary. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:58, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Two notable early changes are Occitan -tz versus Catalan -u in verb endings, and Catalan ll- versus Occitan l-. I don't know if those changes are noted in texts, but they could help to distinguish the two. —CodeCat 18:44, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Also, another change I noticed is in conoiser. Catalan has conèixer here, where -sce- developed into -eix- regularly. So the form in that entry could never be the ancestor of the Catalan form. Our entry cognosco also has conoixer. —CodeCat 18:51, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
And Catalan has unstressed -as > -es, which is already written that way in the 11th century Blanquerna. Occitan doesn't have this change and kept a back vowel instead. —CodeCat 18:53, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
But isn't it possible that the "x" developed due to the preceding "i"? How do we know it came directly from "sc"? Or that conoiser was actually pronounced with a /ʃ/? --WikiTiki89 18:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Combining overline vs macronEdit

See also Wiktionary:Information_desk#o.CC.85.

Currently, a number of entries link to appendices with names including combining overlines, e.g. makë links to *maka̅. Should the combining overline be a macron instead (*makā)? - -sche (discuss) 06:20, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Are they all Proto-Albanian? --WikiTiki89 06:22, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Does it matter? I say yes, they should be macrons. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:12, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
It might have mattered. Maybe some languages distinguish between longer and shorter lines over a letter. --WikiTiki89 17:27, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Yes, macrons are for marking letters in transcriptions or transliteration. The w:overline is for a continuous line in math (e.g., A̅B̅, 0.3̅3̅ – may not display correctly in your font), and sometimes for syntactic structure notation. Michael Z. 2014-01-27 17:16 z
nani#Etymology links to a Proto-Indo-European appendix *(h1)no̅̆- with overline and breve. - -sche (discuss) 17:44, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Macron + breve works fine in my browser, looks better in the edit field: ō̆. Michael Z. 2014-01-27 17:47 z
But is it logically coherent to use both in the name of a PIE root? Doesn't macron indicate length and breve brevity? na#Albanian also links to a PIE root spelt using both characters, as does rrapë. - -sche (discuss) 17:57, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Using both means both the long and short versions are attested, or it isn't clear whether the vowel was long or short. *nō̆- is basically shorthand for *no-/nō-. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:31, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Can't we just not use any diacritic in that case? --WikiTiki89 20:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
No, a vowel letter with no diacritic over it is generally interpreted as short. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Searching for / Identifying Cross-Language HomophonesEdit

Is there a way to search for entries in the English Wikitionary based on whether the word has a homonym in a particular other language?

In particular, I'm looking for English words that are Hebrew homophones. Example: "Or" in English has the same pronunciation as "light" in Hebrew (אור)

Any help would be appreciated.

Thank you.

94.230.87.52 11:48, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

There’s no way to undertake such a search. With good reason, we forbid the listing of terms in different languages as homophones. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:53, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Also note that it rarely happens that the words are 100% homophonous. אוֹר in Israeli Hebrew is pronounced [ɔʁ], while or in American English is pronounced [ɔɹ] or even [ɚ] when unstressed. So defining what constitutes cross-language homophony would be a challenge. --WikiTiki89 21:59, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Is this sentence correct?Edit

"She has a khack for overstatement." —This comment was unsigned.

It is correct once knack is substituted for *khack. DCDuring TALK 13:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

February 2014Edit

translation from english to sanskritEdit

Hi I would be much grateful if you could translate I walk alone in sanskrit for me ,thanks in advance

अहम् एकाकी अटामि (aham ekākī aṭāmi) (if "I" is a man).
अहम् एकाकिनी अटामि (aham ekākinī aṭāmi) (if "I" is a woman). —Stephen (Talk) 09:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)


You've come to the wrong place. This forum is for questions about using and editing Wiktionary. Try a web search for "translate English to Sanskrit". --Thnidu (talk) 01:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I think he confused this page with Wiktionary:Translation requests. --WikiTiki89 01:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

concordances - categorization newbie question.Edit

Is it possible to create a list concordance: Shakespeare, and gradually add words to it that are found in his work? If so, how? Joycemij (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

I should think you could create Appendix:Shakespeare (following the format that you will see in Appendix:A Clockwork Orange). —Stephen (Talk) 19:23, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Is "sum of parts" a valid reason for deletion?Edit

I see tons of deletion nominations stating "Sum of parts" or "SOP", but that really isn't mentioned as a reason for deletion in either WT:CFI or WT:DELETE. Is there some other deletion policy page I missed? --Brainy J (talk) 15:14, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

We use SoP for "non-idiomatic" or "transparent". See WT:CFI#Idiomaticity. DCDuring TALK 15:23, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
See also [[WT:GL#S]].​—msh210 (talk) 05:34, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Egyptomania#EtymologyEdit

Stupid question, but how do I format this etymology? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I guess we're lacking {{interfix}}. --WikiTiki89 05:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
I just created a preliminary version that would work for most cases including this one. --WikiTiki89 05:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Just wanted to make sure I didn't screw upEdit

I wanted to verify that my first edit was fine: diff. Since the quotation was clunky, I wanted to add it as a citation instead, but after I worked my way through it, I saw that it said "English citation" in the preview. Was adding it to the main entry the correct decision?--Gormadoc (talk) 05:28, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Is it a usage example, or a quotation? --WikiTiki89 05:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

script (February 2014)Edit

The Latin script is superior to the Arabic script because it does not need diacretics. Am i correct? Pass a Method (talk) 15:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The majority of Latin script languages use mandatory diacritics (French, Spanish, German, just to name a few). So I would say those languages need diacritics. Arabic, on the other hand, has optional diacritics and therefor does not need them. So no, you are not correct. --WikiTiki89 15:22, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Also, the absence (or presence) of diacritics doesn't make one script "superior to" another. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
I can read both Latin and Arabic although is speak very little Arabic. However i can pronounce:
  • "eu estou indo para a escola, porque eu quero aprender coisas" - a language i dont speak

However i'm unable to pronounce

  • "وانا ذاهب الى المدرسة لأنني أريد أن تعلم الاشياء" - a language i speak little, even though i understand the Arabic alphabet. Pass a Method (talk) 15:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
    Now go and try to pronounce Polish or Czech without diacritics. You'd have a really hard time even if you knew the phonology. That's why these languages make diacritics mandatory. Arabic doesn't do so, because once you know enough Arabic, you start being able to correctly guess how to pronounce a word you've never seen before. --WikiTiki89 15:48, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I think alphabets are inherently superior to abjads. I hope Persian switches to a normal alphabet like Turkish did. --Vahag (talk) 19:43, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Good luck with that, Vahag :) Native Arabs, Persians, Hebrew speakers, etc. don't have any problem with abjads, they're even easier for writing, as they require less letters and are generally very phonetical, otherwise (considering missing short vowel, gemination symbols, etc.). Arabs are also unconcerned about short vowels, because words/forms have If I were a native speaker of an abjad language with authority, I would never change it to Roman but would probably introduce additional letters for foreign sounds (like p, v, g, č, ž, which are missing in classical Arabic) and increase the usage of diacritics and resources in fully vocalised texts. At some stage, I thought Chinese, Japanese must switch to Roman but once you know it on some level, you realise that's actually a bad idea, even if many people think that Han characters are extremely difficult and Japanese has "the most ridiculous writing system" (the level unpredictability of kanji readings is quite high). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:05, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I completely agree with Anatoli here. --WikiTiki89 00:42, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
I may agree in case of Semitic languages but not in case of Persian. That language has always had the bad fortune of being written in foreign non-alphabetic scripts, because of which to this date we argue whether something like wʾčʾl is wāzār or wāčār, or gwhl is gōhr, gōhar or something else. I hope a revolution happens there, they switch back to Zoroastrianism and adopt the Avestan alphabet :) --Vahag (talk) 05:39, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
I too think that abjads are more suitable to some languages than others. The Hebrew script is great for Hebrew and Aramaic, but it's really cumbersome for Yiddish (partly because Yiddish tries to make an alphabet out of it); Yiddish (especially Standard Yiddish and the Litvish dialect) is IMHO much better suited to Cyrillic, but for political reasons it's unlikely to ever be changed. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:03, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
There are some things missing in Cyrillic for Yiddish, such as a representation of /h/, and there are some other complications, such the representation of /j/. Essentially I think that the optimal orthography for Yiddish would have been one similar to German (with a few changes). But the Hebrew orthography is not as bad as you make it out to be, and is certainly easier to read phonetically than the Hebrew orthography for Ladino. But I agree with Vahag that Persia should go back to Zoroastrianism and readopt the Avestan alphabet. --WikiTiki89 17:11, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
There are plenty of non-Slavic languages that use Cyrillic һ for /h/, and й for /j/ is unproblematic once you get over the Slavic prejudice against using it word-initially. Hebrew letters are just so big and blocky that words get really long and "heavy-looking" once you start using full-fledged letters like אַ, אָ, and ע for extremely common vowel sounds, not to mention the really clunky ײַ and the need to put a silent א at the start of vowel-initial words. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:38, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, but German Schach is pretty clunky for something that could have been spelled шах, that doesn't mean that German would be better off switching to Cyrillic. Russians often make fun of how Germans spell щи (a two-letter word) as Schtschi (an eight-letter word). --WikiTiki89 19:31, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
I make fun of the French for taking 8 letters to spell three sounds: souhaits = /swɛ/. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:04, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

"archaic" qualifierEdit

Hallo,

This is about the translation of last year into Hebrew.

The current translation has the qualifier "archaic". This is not quite correct. This word is not used in spontaneous informal speech today, but it's used quite frequently in documents and in news, both written and spoken.

The qualifier should probably be changed, but I'm not sure to what exactly. Is there a list of qualifiers somewhere?

Thanks. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 19:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

{{qualifier|formal}} sounds like the right one. --WikiTiki89 20:01, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, sounds appropriate.
But is there some kind of a list where I can find a reference of suggested qualifiers to use? --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
{{context}} blindly accepts anything, even gibberish, as a qualifier, but the standardized qualifiers are listed in the guts of the module that handles them, Module:labels/data. That isn't a very reader-friendly / übersichtlich list, though. Perhaps someone can use it to generate a reader-friendly, WT:LOF-style list, or perhaps someone already has. - -sche (discuss) 20:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
I suppose one could sift through WT:GLOSS for appropriate terms, but there should be a separate page for contexts and other labels, if there isn't one already. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
It won't be easy to generate a useful list with what is in the data module right now. A module wouldn't be able to tell the difference between different types of label, so the best it could do is list them all together alphabetically. But that's a very long and dense list. —CodeCat 22:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
What we could do is a dump analysis of all uses of {{context}} (and friends) and {{qualifier}} and make a list of the most commonly used ones sorted by frequency. --WikiTiki89 22:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)
This would be quite useful, particularly if the list contained even contexts that weren't recognised by the module yet. - -sche (discuss) 20:10, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Link color in inflection/declension templatesEdit

I noticed that some inflection templates, like those for Greek or Turkish, allow for links to pages that don't exist, with black instead of red links. Is there a specific way to accomplish this?, because I'm not sure from looking through their code what part is responsible. Thanks in advance for any advice. -68.98.97.239 01:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Adding a table to class="inflection-table" is usually what does this. For example:
this is a blacklink to a fake word
--WikiTiki89 01:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
And, in case you were wondering, the inflection-table is defined in MediaWiki:Common.css as:
.inflection-table a.new { color: #000000; }
--WikiTiki89 01:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

היסטוריהEdit

Are there any synonyms of this? --Æ&Œ (talk) 21:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

There's the archaic דִּבְרֵי הַיָּמִים (divréi hayamím, literally matters of the days) (which is also the Hebrew title of the Book of Chronicles). Found more usually in the construct form דִּבְרֵי יְמֵי (divréi y'méi, literally matters of the days of). --WikiTiki89 00:51, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
In addition to divréi-hayamím . . . it's sometimes used (like English history) to mean basically just "past", and in that sense it has the synonym עבר (avár, past). And Even-Shoshan (see {{R:ha-milon he-khadash}}) says that it's used colloquially to mean "story", in which sense it has synonyms such as סיפור (sipúr, story). —RuakhTALK 07:39, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Pinyin third toneEdit

If I encounter a Pinyin transliteration where the third tone is marked with a breve instead of a caron (e.g. 米国), should I change it to a caron instead? WarlordFrederick (talk) 03:00, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, caron. —Stephen (Talk) 03:43, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Template won't transclude catEdit

I tried googling, didn't come up with anything.

It's a pretty basic template ({{liv-noun-manual}}) and at the end there's an #if: – if param then no cat if not then cat but it doesn't work (and it's not caching – I did a m edit to a page where it should show up).

Also a minor question there is a lone closing </nowiki> tag up where the navframe stuff is, is it there for a reason? (I think it was like that in the original). Thanks! Neitrāls vārds (talk) 07:12, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Try it now. — Ungoliant (falai) 13:09, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! Neitrāls vārds (talk) 03:58, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Possible error in Italian conjugation tablesEdit

The 3rd person imperative for verbs ending in -ERE (e.g. vivere, chiedere, prendere) is listed on Wiktionary as ending in -I (i.e. vivi, chiedi, prendi). However all other sources I checked list the imperative as ending in -A (i.e. viva, chieda, prenda).

Could anyone verify/rectify this? (I'm new here and I don't know how to edit conjugation tables.)

  • Fixed. (thanks for spotting it) SemperBlotto (talk) 12:27, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Need help finding a Persian poem n the original FarsiEdit

I would like to find this poem in its original Farsi.

I Have Learned So Much

I Have Learned So much from God That I can no longer Call Myself

A Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Jew.

The Truth has shared so much of Itself With me

That I can no longer call myself A man, a woman, an angel, Or even a pure Soul.

Love has Befriended Hafiz so completely It has turned to ash And freed Me

Of every concept and image my mind has ever known.

From: 'The Gift' Translated by Daniel Ladinsky

It may be difficult to find the original Persian poem. Daniel Ladinsky has been accused of making up poems. "The Gift" is said to be nothing but a parody of Hafiz's poetic style. —Stephen (Talk) 07:22, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

ISO Language Code used for Slovincian?Edit

I would like to add some entries for Slovincian. Is there a code for this language (considered a dialect of Kashubian by some)? I tried the ISO code provided in Wikipedia (and variants) but it only resulted in module errors.Vedac13 (talk) 12:27, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Use zlw-slv. —Stephen (Talk) 12:37, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
There's a full list of languages and their codes at WT:LL. You can search through it to see if what you need is there. —CodeCat 13:46, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
There's no code for Slovio. Should we have one? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:37, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

adjectival form of hungerEdit

What is the term for ‘of or pertaining to hunger?’ --Æ&Œ (talk) 22:44, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Closest I can think of is orectic (relating to desire or appetite, orexis; compare anorexia etc.). We seem to define this in terms of psychological longing but that might be over-specific. Equinox 22:50, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
"hunger-related". I recommend not using obscure words that no one would understand. --WikiTiki89 22:52, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Famelic. — Ungoliant (falai) 23:00, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
Isn't this what attributive use of the noun is for? DCDuring TALK 01:52, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

hypernymsEdit

I am guessing that the recommended practice for including hyperonyms is to list the immediate ones, never the distant ones. So for the word pizza, this is recommended:

HypernymsEdit

But this is not (even though it’s technically true):

HypernymsEdit

--Æ&Œ (talk) 02:12, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I would agree, but in my opinion hypernyms are not so useful anyway. --WikiTiki89 02:17, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I kind of agree. In many cases, the hypernym is used as part of the definition anyway, isn't it? —CodeCat 02:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Are they useless for foreign languages? --Æ&Œ (talk) 02:33, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion, yes. But don't forget, I'm not a supreme authority on hyperyms or anything. --WikiTiki89 02:36, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I think they are useful in some areas of research. WordNet records that kind of thing. Equinox 17:54, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
It’s a big topic in translation method and technology, since some languages, especially English, have extremely well developed systems of hypernyms and hyponyms, while the majority of languages are somewhat weaker in the area of hypernyms, and some languages have very few hypernyms at all. It’s always a problem when translating between English and a lot of other languages, such as Russian, because English relies heavily on its hypernyms, while Russian usually needs hyponyms. It means that the translator must add meaning that is not there, or lose meaning that exists in the original text, in order to make a good translation. American Indian languages are well known for having very few hypernyms. Sometimes all a translator can do when translating into Native American languages is say that these things (a given hypernym) are similar to this specific thing (a hyponym). —Stephen (Talk) 20:53, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
@Stephen G. Brown: That's a good bit of insight, but I'm not sure how much listing hypernyms within a language will help with that. Take for example English mother-in-law and Russian тёща (tjóšča) and свекро́вь (svekróvʹ): the entry for mother-in-law can only list English hyponyms, of which there aren't any; while the entries for тёща (tjóšča) and свекро́вь (svekróvʹ) can only list Russian hypernyms, of which there aren't any. But this case does happen to be naturally covered by definitions and translation tables: тёща (tjóšča) and свекро́вь (svekróvʹ) are defined using mother-in-law, while mother-in-law lists тёща (tjóšča) and свекро́вь (svekróvʹ) in its translation table. --WikiTiki89 06:00, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I don’t know of anyone who uses lists of hypernyms. Maybe teachers. Translators have to pull these things out of their heads. A translator often has to look for a definition, but the definition is only a hint. He decides on the right words to make the translation by searching through his learned vocabulary. —Stephen (Talk) 11:52, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
You are correct. But don't forget that this dictionary is not only for translations. It is also important whether lists of hypernyms/hyponyms are useful within a language (and I think that they are not very useful even within a language). --WikiTiki89 19:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
The recommended practice is to list immediate hypernyms (etc) rather than distant ones, so that"Western Hemisphere" shouldn't be listed in "flyover state", right? - -sche (discuss) 18:19, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
It's sometimes hard to tell what "immediate" means. But I totally agree that the things that Pass a Method (talkcontribs) has been adding to as many US cities/states/regions as he can are entirely irrelevant and entirely inappropriate. I have reverted some of them, but there are too many for me to go through. I was just about to post on the BP about this, but it seems I'm not the only one who has noticed. --WikiTiki89 19:16, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
For taxonomic names one benefits from having many layers of hypernyms, though I rather doubt that taxonomic names are a good model of the use of hypernyms in ordinary languages. DCDuring TALK 19:31, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
I think our topical categories do a much better job of capturing the relationships shown than hypernyms do.
As for PAM, I think they are totally devoid of any sense of proportion: everything they do is systematically taken to extremes in an apparent quest to be comprehensive. The definitions of all of those entries have enough information for anyone with a brain to figure out hypernyms, holonyms, etc. without explicitly listing them. I hope they don't start adding the planet, solar system and galaxy to the holonym list, or 49 other states and a number of territories as heteronyms, or thousands of counties, cities, towns, and other named geographical features as hyponyms. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:24, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
I dun know. The topical categories are broad; I doubt that the relationships would be more obvious. Also: ‘anyone with a brain’ (your words) does not accurately describe many readers of the project. Proof exists in the feedback section. --Æ&Œ (talk) 23:39, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Hypernym and hyponyms sections are useful for listing words it would be inaccurate to call synonyms. For example, at the entry for chevon, I've listed goatmeat as a synonym, but cabrito and kid as hyponyms, because these refer narrowly to the meat of young goats rather than broadly to the meat of any goat. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 09:22, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Formatting of translation sectionsEdit

I've been making offline bilingual dictionaries using @Matthias Buchmeier:'s script. The conversion of some articles failed, and I'd like to know if this is because they had not been formatted correctly. So, are these allowed and if yes, how are they used?

Keyword: bracket
{{trans-top|generically any of "(", ")", "[", "]", "{", "}", "<" and ">"}}
 
Keyword: Hungarian
{{trans-top|of, from{{,}} or pertaining to Hungary}}
 
Keyword: be
* French: {{not used|fr}}
 
{{unsupported|

Also, and I can't remember the exact example, is a qualifier allowed inside the translation's gloss (i.e. inside the trans-top brackets.

And a final question, I found some instances of

<nowiki>[</nowiki>

I understand that this is used to escape brackets. My question is for what other special characters it can be used. I'm guessing curly brackets as well, but is it also used e.g. for quotes? Jenniepet (talk) 09:06, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I believe that there are currently no rules strictly prohibiting template nesting inside {{trans-top}}, {{qualifier}}, {{t}} etc. However, as this nesting tends to break all kinds of scripts, bots, etc. I try to remove them whenever possible.Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 19:03, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Templates ({{qualifier}}, {{context}}, {{,}}, etc) should not be nested inside trans-top, parentheses should be used instead, e.g. {{trans-top|(maths) able to be foobared}}, {{trans-top|subject to foobaring (being aged in a vat)}}. This means "{" and "}" should never be used inside trans-top, except possibly if the translations are of those characters or words that denote them and the gloss is expressing this. Less than and greater than symbols should not be used, either (unless they are what is being translated). It might be valid for "[" and "]" to appear as part of a wikilink, but not under other circumstances, I think (unless perhaps, as with the other symbols, they are what is being translated). - -sche (discuss) 21:09, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks to both for your answers. I'll try to correct these entries then. I'd still appreciate some insight on whether the nowiki tag can be used for curly brackets or other special characters. Jenniepet (talk) 03:48, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

March 2014Edit

I'm planning to move to the UK.Edit

Are there any language pitfalls I should watch out for? I've only learned to speak American and I don't want to do any silly mistakes due to words that may have different meanings on the other side of the pond. I'm already trying to get used to colloquial terms that are only used over there and that I am totally unfamiliar with, and it's causing me such headaches... -- Liliana 15:01, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Aren't they mostly accustomed to American English? ANZ slang has more pitfalls I think. I recall a young woman from the US getting a lot of attention at a sports bar because she was rooting for the All-Blacks. DCDuring TALK 16:09, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Try not to fall on your fanny (if you are of the female persuasion). SemperBlotto (talk) 16:16, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I've never had a problem understanding the British, nor have any British ever had a problem understanding me. You might learn funny words like blagger, but it should never really get in your way. --WikiTiki89 17:00, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
Refer to your Hosen as trousers or (if applicable) jeans but never as pants, since the latter refers only to your Unterhosen. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:56, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
It’s considered perfectly acceptable to knock women up. In the UK you can even knock men up. They don’t seem to mind. —Stephen (Talk) 21:41, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
fags are (usually) cigarettes, not homosexuals; a rubber is an eraser, not a condom. Equinox 21:46, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Merry go roundEdit

I've heard forever that a merry go round rotated counterclockwise and a Carousel rotated clockwise. True or false? RCWatkins (talk) 23:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC) RCWatkins (talk) 23:12, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps this is relevant: [1]. But a British person going to the US would probably call the carousels "merry-go-rounds", so the distinction is blurry. Equinox 23:14, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
I don't know how accurate that is. I'm American and in my experience, "merry-go-round" is the more common term and is what I have always called them. Even though I grew up with my parents calling them карусе́ль (karusélʹ) in Russian, all my English-speaking friends called them merry-go-rounds. But that could just be a New England thing. As for the direction, I've definitely seen them going both ways in America. --WikiTiki89 23:22, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Hebrew with Arabic punctuationEdit

I dislike how Hebrew uses our left‐to‐right punctuation since it doesn’t really suit the script. I would prefer to write with some Arabic punctuation (namely: ؟ ,؛, ،), but I suspect that most people would reject this because it’s unconventional. Is everybody going to reject this practice? --Æ&Œ (talk) 10:43, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

You answered your own question there. -- Liliana 12:08, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Esther scroll (nothing but spacing)
Aleppo Codex (cantillation marks)
Talmud (periods and colons)
@Æ&Œ: Traditional Hebrew texts don't use any of the three punctuation marks you just mentioned (;, ?, ,). Those marks were introduced with the revival of Modern Hebrew because most of the revivalists came from Europe and spoke languages such as Russian, German, and French, all of which had already been using those punctuation marks. Traditional Hebrew texts have their own punctuation system. The Torah scrolls are written without any punctuation at all other than spacing. Biblical texts outside of traditional scrolls, use a system of cantillation marks which double as punctuation if you know them well enough. Other texts, such as siddurs, and Talmuds essentially use a single dot (which Unicode doesn't have a special character for, so a period [[.]] works) for a "comma" and a double dot (in Unicode either the sof pasuq ׃ or just a colon [[:]]) for a full-stop. As you can see, all the traditional punctuation marks are symmetrical anyway. I have included some example images at right; all these texts have questions in them, but they are punctuated as regular sentences. --WikiTiki89 16:30, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "left-to-right punctuation" means, or in what sense it "doesn't really suit the script". I guess you're used to seeing ? with the open part facing the question, but it's an arbitrary symbol, and there's no reason to expect it to point one way vs. the other. Writers of Arabic-script languages, when adopting European punctuation, reversed some marks and rotated some others; writers of Hebrew-script languages, when adopting the same punctuation, did not. (For that matter, you can see similar variations between European languages: for example, among those with guillemet-style quotation marks, some have them point outward, while others have them point inward.) I think you'll get about as much support for applying the Arabic convention to Hebrew as for applying the Hebrew convention to Arabic. —RuakhTALK 02:13, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
I must add though, that the Arabic symbols happen to have an accidental advantage in the computer age due to Unicode, in that they appear on the correct side of text written in an LTR frame. Compare:
من أين أنت؟
מאין אתה?
--WikiTiki89 02:23, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
Arabic (and Hebrew, etc.) has the same issue when using a full stop (.), brackets, European numerals and other LTR symbols, which are used with RTL languages - e.g. أنا من" أستراليا." or "20 درهم". It seems silly but to avoid the punctuation/numerals to appear on the wrong side, some form of code conversion should be used,.e.g. מאין אתה?‎, أنا من أستراليا.‎, 20 درهم‎. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:35, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I was just pointing out an accidental benefit of the Arabic question mark. I don't know what you mean by "code conversion", but the way the lang/script templates work is by inserting something along the lines of the HTML <span dir="rtl">...</span> around the right-to-left text. --WikiTiki89 19:56, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
I meant script conversion (such as templates in Wiktionary). RTL languages would also benefit from a RTL full-stop but there isn't one. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:19, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
All the script templates do is add something along the lines of <span class="Hebr" lang="he">...</span>, and all that does is tell the browser which CSS class to get the fonts from. There is no "conversion". --WikiTiki89 20:28, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
The browser gets the right fonts and the script gets the right direction. I hope that helps. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 20:54, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
You're talking nonsense and I don't blame you because web design is a pretty tricky subject. A script on Wiktionary is nothing but a CSS class defined in MediaWiki:Common.css, which tells the browser which direction to display the text and which fonts to use. --WikiTiki89 21:45, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
That's what I meant, even if I didn't express it clearly/correctly. I didn't try and want to go into technical details. All I wanted to say is that templates help to show the text correctly and sometimes even show characters instead of square brackets, when fonts are missing on the client (e.g. with Han characters) and help with known text direction problems. No need to get aggressive, smart Alec, I wasn't even arguing with you or contradicting you. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:25, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Sorry if I came off as aggressive, I was just trying to make the templates seem less magical by explaining what they do. Unfortunately Wiktionary is not the only place in the world that uses Unicode, so it useful to know how to do it without our template magic. --WikiTiki89 01:40, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with Hebrew punctuation but apparently it doesn't use Arabic punctuation (e.g. ؟ ,؛, ،), so there is little choice. Even if we "borrow" some punctuation marks from Arabic into Hebrew, there are still others, for which Arabic doesn't have native symbols either, plus numbers. So, language/script specific templates, {{LR}} are probably the only way to deal with multi-directional texts in Wiktionary. Other environments need other solutions. There will always be problems with using right-to-left texts in left-to-right environments. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 10:40, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
That's why a called it an "accidental benefit of the Arabic question mark". --WikiTiki89 17:18, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
More precisely, it's "accidental benefit of the Unicode encoding of the Arabic question mark". After all, the English, Arabic, and Hebrew question marks are actually the same character; but Unicode decided to unify only the English and Hebrew, leaving Arabic separate. (This is presumably because ISO 8859 did the same, which in turn is presumably because of the superficial appearance of the glyphs.) That allowed Unicode to treat its Arabic-question-mark character as RTL, while it had to treat its English-and-Hebrew-question-mark character as directionally neutral. —RuakhTALK 19:09, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, but I don't see how Unicode could have possibly unified all three. How would the display know whether the context is Hebrew or Arabic even if it knows the direction is RTL? They could have unified the Arabic and English ones and had them flip directions like the parentheses, but then they would need an explicit Hebrew one that acts as RTL and does not flip directions, but I think that would have been an inferior approach to the one they did use. What might have been a good option would have been to have three separate code points: one for LTR, and two for RTL that are mirror images of each other. --WikiTiki89 19:38, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Re: "How would the display know whether the context is Hebrew or Arabic even if it knows the direction is RTL?": The same way that it would know, for a unified Han character, whether the context is Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or Vietnamese. (Of course, Han unification was controversial, and hasn't worked perfectly, and I'm not saying that Unicode should have unified the three question-mark variants. I'm just saying that they had multiple options for how to handle them, and that your comment about the "accidental benefit" has to do with the option that Unicode went with rather than with the underlying typographical situation.) —RuakhTALK 23:25, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
But how does Unicode know whether the context is Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese, etc.? I always thought that these variants were just up to the font. --WikiTiki89 23:37, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
It relies on higher-level language– and script-tagging (lang and xml:lang attributes in HTML and XHTML, Content-Language headers in HTTP, etc.). (Which are mediated by fonts, yes.) —RuakhTALK 01:53, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
But that's not a Unicode thing, it's an HTML thing. --WikiTiki89 01:57, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Exactly. Unicode is specifically agnostic to these concerns. It encodes characters, not languages. It's up to the "encompassing" environment to decide what visual representation the characters have. HTML is one example, but there are other things too. Locale settings in the operating system will switch between б in Serbian Cyrillic and б in Russian Cyrillic, depending on what language you set. —CodeCat 02:01, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
But directionality is a Unicode thing, which is why it's feasible to have parentheses flip depending on directionality. But if we were to flip the question mark if the language were an Arabic-like language and not flip it if it were a Hebrew-like language, that would require knowledge of the language which as you said Unicode is agnostic to. --WikiTiki89 02:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
XML != HTML, HTTP != HTML, etc. But anyway, I'm not sure what your point is. I'm just answering your question about how Unicode works, namely: it doesn't concern itself with the mapping from characters to glyphs, and assumes that a higher-level protocol will make some sort of language information available so that this mapping can be done in a language-appropriate way. (Philosophically, this is no different from the decision not to concern itself with fonts, italics/bolding/font-size, etc.; that's just not what Unicode is for.) Unicode happens not to take advantage of language-agnosticism for question marks, but this would be for compatibility reasons (since there already existed an ISO 8859 code-page that distinguished ASCII and Arabic question marks, whereas with CJKV there were no legacy encodings that included characters from more than one of these languages), so there's no reason to suspect that the reasons you give were factors in that decision. (Similarly, Unicode includes a whole bunch of "presentation forms", not because it considers these to be legitimately within its remit, but because it sought round-trip compatibility with legacy software.) —RuakhTALK 03:45, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Re "XML != HTML, HTTP != HTML, etc.": Can you point out where anyone confused them? Re "I'm not sure what your point is": My point was to show that the differences between the question marks is more than just a font difference, since it should be theoretically possible (if you had enough time and file space) to design a single universal Unicode font that handles all languages properly. That would not be possible if the correctness of a character relied on choosing language-specific fonts. --WikiTiki89 03:58, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Re: first sentence: Well, I mentioned that Unicode expects language to be specified via a higher-level protocol such as HTML, XML, HTTP, etc., and your response was "that's not a Unicode thing, that's an HTML thing".   Re: rest of it: I don't think anyone said that the difference between the question marks is "just a font difference"; it's a language/script difference. Hence my example of Han unification. Any "single universal Unicode font that handles all languages properly" would, by construction, handle CJKV properly, and could therefore handle a unified question mark properly. End of story. —RuakhTALK 06:17, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Well now that I know what I found out below, yes it is end of story. --WikiTiki89 06:25, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
One font can contain more than one shape for the same character. The Cyrillic б is an example of that; it's still shown in the same font in Serbian, but a different shape is selected from the font. With the same logic, different shapes could be selected for ? depending on whether the language is Hebrew or Arabic. —CodeCat 04:11, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Now that's what I was looking for. How exactly does the font know the language? --WikiTiki89 04:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
The application tells it that. Firefox does this (which is why I see it for Serbian), and other programs and libraries like w:Pango also support it (the Wikipedia article gives an example too). —CodeCat 04:20, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, that's the obvious bit. But firstly, what format is the "language" given as, as an ISO code? Secondly, does the font have a list of [answer-to-the-previous-question]s for each glyph that has language variants indicating which variant goes with what language, or what? --WikiTiki89 04:28, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Something like that. A font contains a "locl" table (or a few of them) listing glyphs which should be substituted for other glyphs in a given language environment (which seems to be specified by a combination of a ISO script code and a three-letter language code). The text rendering engine may look up this table to perform appropriate glyph substitutions. Or not. Keφr 13:43, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure why it was done that way either. It does complicate some things. But at the same time I imagine it was designed to make it easier to mix scripts together. If you ever want to quote a single Arabic word in an English text, it's not going to be helpful if the letters appear left-to-right. At the same time, though, it's impossible to show a Serbian б in plain text within an English text. So it's like they tried to make things convenient, but stopped half way. —CodeCat 02:12, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Russian vs Serbian letterforms
Am I supposed to pretend that I see a difference between Serbian б and Russian б? Maybe browsers are supposed to do that, but they don't (yet). Using the "Russian" б for Serbian is not a huge problem at all. In fact I can't find any graphical evidence of the "Serbian" б in any actual (scanned) printed books in Google Books or Google Images. Out-of-context images like the one at right are the only place I've ever seen the supposed "Serbian" б in an upright print typeface. --WikiTiki89 02:45, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
That's strange, I do see them differently. And I see the Serbian shape on Serbian Wikipedia as well. And when I look for italics on a random Serbian page, and then force my browser to use a serif font, it shows the special Serbian italic shapes like in the picture. So your browser or font just might not have the right support for it. —CodeCat 03:22, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
And the Serbian printing presses also don't seem to have much support for this feature. Nor does the Serbian Government (see the images/logos). After clicking through numerous previews of Serbian books in Google Books, I finally find one (out of maybe 20 or so) that used the "Serbian" б. --WikiTiki89 03:32, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

"Box"Edit

Hello, In your template {{documentation}} you have next to the box of discussion a box called "documentation".How can we add a box here (I want the html code). Thank you.--Ζαμπέρ (talk) 20:03, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean the "tab"? I wouldn't call it a "box". The documentation tab is added with JavaScript. I don't know the details, but I'm sure someone here does. --WikiTiki89 20:12, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
It's in MediaWiki:Common.js; search that page for Make tabs for citations-pages and template-documentation-pages. —RuakhTALK 22:57, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Trans-language reference modelEdit

As indicated in the headline: which model/template/format should be used to link to other versions (i.e. languages) of the Wiktionary, under the ===References=== section? LouisTakePILLz (talk) 05:41, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

None. The links are added and maintained by bots and appear on the left sidebar. There is no need to link to them in any other way. --WikiTiki89 05:43, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
That's not quite what I meant; I think you might have misconstrued my question. I was actually inquiring about the ===References=== section, not the sidebar language entries.
I was wondering how information that is taken from another version of the Wiktionary should be referred as, in the references section.
I distinctively recall seeing those templates being used on the French version of Wiktionary (Wiktionnaire). LouisTakePILLz (talk) 05:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
You don't need to do that. Other Wiktionaries are not real references. You should either list the same references that the other Wiktionary lists, or not list any. --WikiTiki89 06:00, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Sure then, albeit, that leads me to wonder: why are other Wiktionary projects doing so? The French version actually has a model to indicate entries that contains (or is based upon) information of another's (e.g. The information in this article is partially or entirely based upon the Spanish Wiktionary). LouisTakePILLz (talk) 06:07, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I can't tell you why. I can only tell you that we don't do that. If you think we should, then we could start a discussion about that. --WikiTiki89 06:11, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Okay. Thanks anyhow! LouisTakePILLz (talk) 06:13, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

wildcard character problemEdit

How do I look up words with exactly three letters? What if including acronyms, affixes, and in reverse order? 218.173.46.146 11:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)Zachary Liao

paneroEdit

i got a problem about the word PANERO. People who are in politics or have a political carrier they call to each other PANERO. For example PANERO where are you going? I will talk to you later PANERO.

Well, first you have to determine what language you’re dealing with. After that, you may have to consider diacritics, such as pañero. And lastly, you have to define what you mean by "got a problem with"...is your problem that you don’t know how to spell it? —Stephen (Talk) 13:34, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

What does Pañero or in girl Pañera mean in English. People who are in politics or have a political carrier they call to each other Pañero. For example Pañero where are you going? I'm going to our session now Pañera. I will talk to you later Pañera. OK,take care Pañero. >>>What does Pañero or Pañera mean? The word Pañero or Pañera is Spanish.

Are you sure it's not compañero? Chuck Entz (talk) 18:31, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I have the impression that he is talking about English, and the English slang use of a Spanish word. So, while a Spanish-speaker would not truncate compañero that way, an English-speaker might well drop the initial syllable and say pañero. —Stephen (Talk) 20:13, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Reverse Dictionary Search Capability?Edit

I want to search in the definitions of words, not for the words themselves.

EX: Right now I'm trying to remember the term for the publisher's mark on the title page of a book.

I've looked up coda, pilcrow, colophon ... I think it begins with an 's' but I can't seem to come up with it.
I'm sure there are specialized websites where I could find it but it would be soooo cool if I could just access the Wiktionary definitions.
I couldn't find a way to search IN the definitions.

My Questions:

  • Does Wiktionary have this sort of Reverse Dictionary search capability?
  • If not, I'd like to request the concept be considered as a future feature.
  • If not exactly a Reverse Dictionary, is there a list of or way to search for Category Pages?
I was searching for knight weaponry/armor (sword, dagger, scabbard, hilt, gauntlet, shield)
FYI ----> the Armor Definition page doesn't point to the Armor Category.
  • Is there another resource online that you'd recommend for this sort of search?

I'll check back here or you can use the contact form at: http://about.me/sunny_snaith

Sunny Snaith --68.117.182.223 12:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

The search box has two buttons: Go (visit an entry by exact title) and Search (look for entries containing the words you typed, or similar spellings). For categories, see Wiktionary:Categories. Equinox 13:55, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

lay: how to correct punctuation in template, or is it already correct?Edit

Current page of lay#Etymology_5 has:

# {{en-simple past of|lie}} when pertaining to position.

Rendering as:

  1. Simple past tense of lie. when pertaining to position.

Should it be this instead?:

  1. Simple past tense of lie, when pertaining to position. <--Comma instead?

Or maybe this:

  1. Simple past tense of lie (when pertaining to position). <--Or, maybe in parentheses is better?

Or is it correct the way it is now?

If it needs to be corrected, how do I do it? The template seems to automatically add the period.

Sorry, I'm having trouble to find the correct way to do it, and I'm not sure I'm even asking in the right place. ZeniffMartineau (talk) 09:20, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

User:ZeniffMartineau: many of our templates support a |dot= parameter which allows to change the final full stop to something else. This one did not; therefore I added it. Keφr 09:53, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Thank you! :) And is it okay if I add usage documentation/example for parameter on templates which have it? I'm not sure if anyone besides me would need it though, or if it's appropriate to add to template documentation, especially since I'm new here...? ZeniffMartineau (talk) 11:00, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
Go ahead. And good luck. Keφr 11:15, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
And note:- this template accepts three positional parameters, only the first of which is so far documented. SemperBlotto (talk) 11:17, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Circular definitionEdit

The definition given for "embryophyte" is given as "embryophyte" with no further definition.

  • Would you like to buy some stronger glasses? The definition is "Any member of the subkingdom Embryophyta; most land plants." SemperBlotto (talk) 16:21, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
    • They might have been looking at the French translation. This is a link, though, and clicking on it still works… Keφr 18:26, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. My bad. Don't know that the crack about glasses was entirely necessary.

How to categorize an audio file?Edit

chipotle (English noun) has an audio pronunciation file En-us-ncalif-chipotle.ogg that doesn't match the IPA for the US pronunciation:

on page IPA(key): /tʃɪˈpoʊt.lɪ/
in file
(my transcription)
IPA(key): /tʃɪˈpɑʔ.lɪ/

I recorded myself pronouncing the IPA on the page. I uploaded it to Wikimedia Commons* and was asked to categorize it. Well, sure, but commons:Commons:Categories is all very high-level—

  • Find categories with the search engine (see Categorization tips)
  • or check how similar files/images are categorized (some may not be categorized though)
  • or start from the main topical category (Category:Topics)
  • Starting from these categories, check their parent or sub-categories to find an appropriate category. Avoid picking too general categories.

Not feasible. Where to begin? — and Wiktionary:Categorization is all about words:

  1. Grouping words by part of speech
  2. Grouping words by language
[...]

Pronunciation sound files seem to have fallen through a crack, not discussed either here or there. There needs to be some documentation for categorizing them, maybe in Template:audio/documentation. --Thnidu (talk) 03:33, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

* Originally as Chipotle.ogg, but then I requested a rename to En-us-chipotle.ogg.

Put it into this category: [Category:English pronunciation of terms]. When they rename your file, they will also change the extension (from .ogg to .oga). —Stephen (Talk) 17:33, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

no problemaEdit

Is this good Spanish? --Æ&Œ (talk) 13:51, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

No. Per No problemo, correct Spanish is sin problema or no hay problema. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:08, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

LadinoEdit

I want to adject Ladino terms, but citations on Google Books for this language are nearly non‐existent. How can I create entries for this language without getting into trouble? --Æ&Œ (talk) 02:16, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Articles from the Ladino magazine Aki Yerushalayim are available online ([2]). — Ungoliant (falai) 02:22, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Linking to wikisourceEdit

Is there a simple way to link citations to non-English wikisource, for example to [[3]] this? --Makaokalani (talk) 12:14, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

s:fr:Les Misérables TI L4#Chapitre2. Keφr 12:23, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
User:Atelaes made Module:Quotations which can do that, but I wouldn't call it “simple”. See an example in Armenia#Latin for a link to Latin Wikisource. --Vahag (talk) 12:24, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

"a /æ/ phoneme"Edit

Reading the entries graham and mayonnaise, I stumbled over the phrase "a /æ/ phoneme". Shouldn't the article be "an" here? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 12:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I would agree, but I suppose some people might read it as the consonant-initial [ˈnɪəɹˌoʊpɪnˈfɹʌntˌʌnˈɹaʊndɪdˈvaʊwəl] rather than as the vowel initial [æ]. --WikiTiki89 15:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, some people might, but most of us don't, so I've changed an indefinite article to the definite one (without change of meaning), thus avoiding the problem. Dbfirs 16:22, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
I think this is just like "a historic event" vs "an historic event". But until someone who actually prefers "a" comes here to complain, I think we're good. --WikiTiki89 16:45, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Well "a" or "an" before "historic" tells us whether the writer pronounces the "h" or not (or sometimes whether their teacher did, or even their teacher's teacher). Writing "a" or "an" before "herb" tells us whether the writer is British or American (or follows the corresponding pronunciation). My view is that there is only one /æ/ phoneme, so using "the" is correct and matches the definite article in the preceding clause. And Florian did come here, perhaps not to complain, but to ask about a perceived error. I agree, though, that the entries were not glaringly bad, and I wouldn't have bothered changing them were it not for Florian's question. Dbfirs 17:18, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
There are two ways of looking at the word "phoneme": "The English language has one /æ/ phoneme." vs "Batman has two /æ/ phonemes." Clearly the latter is what was originally meant, but it doesn't make much of a difference. What I meant was until someone comes here to complain about "an /æ/". Also, "a historic event" vs "an historic event" does not necessarily reflect pronunciation; a while ago, schools in the US used to teach the spelling "an historic" despite virtually everyone (outside of New York) pronouncing the /h/. --WikiTiki89 17:45, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, the same thing happens with some British educators. That's why I wrote "or even their teacher's teacher". It's strange how educators teach the rule that they learnt even when the reason for it has vanished. I agree with your view on singular and plural phonemes. Dbfirs 21:24, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Another way to skirt the issue is to write "a phoneme /æ/". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:23, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
I would say "but that's just skirting the issue", but you already said that. --WikiTiki89 18:59, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks everyone. The thought of avoiding the issue by rephrasing came to me, too. I just thought this one was an interesting problem. The reason I came here instead of simply changing the article is that I was simply not 100% confident in my judgment. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:54, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Audio File troublesEdit

Hi, I tried uploading an en-us audio file for the word "pertinent" but ran into trouble following the instructions and creating the category. Not sure how to fix it. Can someone take a look? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:En-us-pertinent.ogg BrianAdler (talk) 12:23, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Fixed. --WikiTiki89 15:30, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Need some help with entry hyperlinksEdit

Hi all, I've run into a problem on the ora page. Whenever I click on the Latin "Etymology 3" link from the top, it takes me to the Italian section. I see why it's happening, but I don't know enough to fix it. Any help? Bionisam (talk) 14:13, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

I don’t think there’s anything that can be done. Section linking is not a very flexible with the current entry layout we use at Wiktionary. — Ungoliant (falai) 00:16, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Hmm... I knew the site made all the links automatically, I just assumed I had structured something wrong. — Bionisam (talk) 15:11, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Are archaisms always O.K. for poetry?Edit

I noticed that a lot of archaisms are also acceptable for poetry. Is it just me? I know that they’re not suitable for colloquial speech (‘Yo, dost thou got any crack for me, O my deare childe?’ would be extremely inappropriate and incongruous, obviously), but surely poetry is not colloquial. --Æ&Œ (talk) 19:05, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Many archaisms are often acceptable in poetry. But certainly not all and not always. --WikiTiki89 19:24, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Poetry can be stilted, colloquial, antiquated, modernist, or anything the writer desires. Choosing the words is even more important than choosing the rhymes. Bad choices are a sign of a bad poet, but there are generally no rules. The only rules are those dictated by certain styles, such as haiku, if such a style is selected by the poet to work in; or whatever rules a poet sets for himself, if he wants to set rules. —Stephen (Talk) 20:58, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
There's a chicken-and-egg question here: most of these archaisms would be obsolete rather than archaic if they weren't preserved in poetic, religious, and other stylized forms of speech, so one could argue that they're archaic because they're used in poetry, and not the other way around.
My guess is that certain words and turns of phrase have acquired associations and connotations from the way they were used in the past, and since poetry is more about associations and connotations than simple transfer of information, poets have decided to keep using them long after they've disappeared from everyday speech.
Archaisms do mark speech or text as poetic, so what I mentioned above doesn't explain everything, but it's also true that only certain archaisms will do: I doubt you could use swive to give your speech a poetic feel, for instance.
Of course, as Stephen mentioned, genre plays an important part- there are plenty of modernist poets who would start to gouge their eyes out if they had to listen to thees and thous for very long. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:13, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

thingEdit

Does anyone know in which dialect thing is pronounced with a /k/ in the end? — Ungoliant (falai) 04:19, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Other than the Russian-accent dialect? I have no idea. --WikiTiki89 04:24, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
In certain (especially fake) German accents, too. You can search Google Books for "somethink" and see if you can figure out what dialect the books are trying to represent: it seems to be one or more seedy, city accent(s), possibly British. Villains: Crime and Community in the Inner City often uses "somethink" in transcribing the speech of a scrap metal dealer who I think (based on the snippets of the book that are visisble to me) is in London. - -sche (discuss) 05:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
Somefink would be cockney (think of Only Fools and Horses), though the same pronunciation might also be used in other dialects elsewhere. Dbfirs 07:49, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Probable template errorEdit

There seems to be some syntactic error in stiga upp, probably in the templates (an extra pair of double square brackets is introduced and messes up the entry). Could somebody take a look and fix it? --LPfi (talk) 06:44, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done diff. --WikiTiki89 06:57, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Where could ice be categorised?Edit

It might go with Category:en:Water, but it's not actually liquid water. So where does it go? Similar for other things made of ice, like snow, glacier, iceberg, frost, hail etc. —CodeCat 02:12, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Why does there have to only be one place. It can go in Category:en:Water as well as Category:en:Winter and Category:en:Construction. --WikiTiki89 02:19, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Maybe it merits its own subcategory under Water, but then there's steam, mist, fog, moisture, and humidity to complicate things. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:36, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
It's still water in sense 1 ("H₂O") even if it's not water in subsense 1 ("liquid H₂O"). Unless the number of icy words is so large that they require their own category (>80), I would leave them in "Category:en:Water". - -sche (discuss) 03:31, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
The problem with that is that it is a subcategory of Category:en:Liquids. So the implication is that everything in Category:en:Water is also a liquid. —CodeCat 12:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Not sure about that implication. For example, hydrokinesis and aquifer are in the category, but they are not liquids. Equinox 12:56, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
Don't take the implications so seriously. Reality is too complicated to map precisely onto a simple tree structure like our category framework, so it's not hard to come up with some odd results from traversing it: Nature > Zoology > Animals > Vertebrates > Mammals > Primates > Human > Thinking. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:42, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Font?Edit

Did Wiktionary change its default font for headings to a serif font instead of a sans-serif font? I'm wondering if I have a virus or something, or did Wiktionary change the defaults? -- 70.24.250.235 05:12, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Wikimedia Foundation has changed it — not a decision of Wiktionary. Equinox 05:21, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Ossetian æ againEdit

I just noticed that the Ossetian terms with æ’s have been moved to pages with ӕ’s. I can’t find any recent discussion that authorized this mutation. —Æ&Œ (talk) 18:53, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

No discussion or authorization is needed to justify using a Cyrillic letter rather than a Latin letter in words written in the Cyrillic alphabet. (Of course if we have any Latin-alphabet Ossetian entries, they should use the Latin letter.) —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:24, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
There was some discussion about this some time ago. I remember that it was mentioned that Ossetian, for some reason, is written in Unicode with the Latin æ, not the Cyrillic one, even if the other letters are Cyrillic. —CodeCat 20:39, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
But aren't the letterforms identical? It seems to me that this may be only because the Cyrillic ӕ was unavailable or inaccessible. The same reason that some online Russian text in the old orthography uses Latin i instead of Cyrillic і. --WikiTiki89 20:42, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Apparently, Ossetians still write this way though. The Wikipedia article w:Ossetian language uses it too. —CodeCat 20:45, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Well yes, once they started, it became a backwards compatibility thing. In my view, Unicode should never have made separate code-points for identical characters in different scripts. There really is no good solution to this problem so I think the best one would be to include spellings with Cyrillic ӕ as redirects to spellings with Latin æ, or vice versa. --WikiTiki89 20:55, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Try applying a sensible sorting algorithm when you cannot distinguish H from Н and Η. Keφr 21:10, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Sorting is not well-defined outside the context of a particular language anyway. For example, ç is sorted differently in French and Turkish. --WikiTiki89 21:21, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Try Serbian Bosnian Montenegrin Serbo-Croatian. Keφr 11:17, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
If we do end up doing redirects, the least disruptive way would be Latin to Cyrillic, because we can't rule out the possibility that other Cyrillic languages might only use the Cyrillic ӕ for the same spelling. If we don't redirect, we should make sure we have {{also}} linking both versions. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:07, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
Well I actually meant soft redirects. Also, we can't rule out the possibility that other Cyrillic languages might also use the Latin æ. --WikiTiki89 07:13, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm the one who unilaterally moved Latin æ’s to Cyrillic ӕ’s for the reasons given above by Angr. Hard redirects have been kept and whenever I create a new entry with ӕ, I also create a redirect for Latin. The fact that Ossetians use Latin æ on the Internet is not relevant. Bear in mind that this part of world is not well computer-educated. Most Caucasians use Latin I or 1 for palochka. Most Armenians use Romanized Armenian on Facebook because they don't have keyboard drivers. The ones that do, use ASCII equivalents for some punctuation symbols, i.e. <:> for <։> and <.> for <>, because they don't know anything about Unicode standards and because their keyboard drivers do not support them (this has been fixed in Windows 8). We should promote best practices in Wiktionary. The case with ӕ should not be controversial at all, as people searching with Latin æ will be redirected. --Vahag (talk) 08:41, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Vahag. I have been doing the same with Ossetian entries and translations and cases of incorrect usage of palochka. The fact that Wikipedians use the wrong spelling doesn't prove anything. The same was done here in the past. FYI, Cyrillic ӕ was specifically designed for Ossetian (AFAIK, it's the only language using it) and all Cyrillic based languages officially use only Cyrillic letters. There are other rather new Cyrillic letters, which look like their Latin counterparts. E.g. Chuvash is another language that often use Latin forms, even if the official letters are Cyrillic - cf. ӑ/ă, ӗ/ĕ. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 09:17, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
I have added more languages to User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js where erroneous palochka or other letters are common. Also: convert to Cyrillic "ӦӧІі" for Komi varieties. It's not really a "fix" but it will create a link to the correct form, if someone adds a translation in the wrong script, e.g. if someone types "тилĕ" instead of "тилӗ (tilĕ)" in Chuvash language, the raw link will be Cyrillic "тилӗ" (the correct form) on that translation. There are a lot of possibilities, of course, which are not yet covered, e.g. entering Roman "ə" instead of Cyrillic "ә" in Kazakh, etc. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Social terms categorizationEdit

I notice that Category:Farewells has no topic cat parent, while Category:Greetings is under Category:Communication. These seem to have in common that they're used to establish or confirm social relationships and/or hierarchies, rather than merely convey literal meaning: whether I say "hi, how are you" or "good morning", or "greetings", I'm acknowledging my relationship with whomever I'm addressing, rather than giving or receiving information.

Our categories don't address this sort of thing very well, and sometimes, not at all (they end up categorized merely as phrases). Should we have a category of something like "Social acts"? Is there some better term for it? What should it go under in the category tree? Is it a topical category ({{topic cat}}), a type of phrase ({{phrasecatboiler}}, or a lexicon ({{lexiconcatboiler}})?

As a side issue, there are also classes of terms with a social dimension, such as terms of address, , titles, honorifics, etc., that might be related, somehow. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:15, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

This seems like a significant gap in our categorization. It seems not to be an area of interest of our group of committed contributors and thus neglected despite its importance. It would even be an important foundation element for a serious phrasebook.
It is not a "topic", but rather the whole realm covered by pragmatics that is potentially involved, though large portions of pragmatics do not lead to much that is lexical. Some phrases are considered inclusion-worthy solely because of their pragmatic function, often indicated by a {{non-gloss definition}} (shortcut: {{n-g}}). {{n-g}} is transcluded some 5000+ times, but many uses are for senses of grammatical function words. But many more terms do not use this template, eg, greetings defined with glosses like "hello". That template with one or more additional named parameters or a more specific variant could be useful in categorizing such expressions that have essentially pragmatic content. DCDuring TALK 00:15, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

GeequinoxEdit

Why is Equinox allowed to incinerate his talk page whenever he wants but everybody else’s has to be archived for all eternity? --Æ&Œ (talk) 22:23, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

As far as I know, it’s a personal choice. In 2003–2005, I used to delete the old items, or unimportant items, on my talk page, but after 2006 people started archiving it, so I did as well. Yes, some people such as Luciferwildcat were threatened and blocked for deleting things from their talk page, but I think they were just being bullied and harassed. —Stephen (Talk) 05:26, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Bloody hell you're never happy are you? AFAIK, other people's talk pages don't "have to be" archived. That's why we have the "user page deleted on owner's request" deletion reason. Equinox 06:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I requested that my talk page be deleted a few times years back. Only one person (Martin) complied, and then after that nobody respected my other requests, obviously because it would have calmed me down instead of stressing me out. I don’t quite feel so insecure about it now. I just think that this ties in well with Wiktionarian relativism. --Æ&Œ (talk) 07:19, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
P.S. It's very childish and petty of you to keep calling me a geek, etc. when you whined previously about me calling you by your actual old user name of Pilcrow. Grow some balls and don't be so passive-aggressive; as I said, if you have a problem with me, confront me about it. Equinox 06:06, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
No, all whiners, childish people, passive‐aggressive people, and petty people must be exterminated to ensure a better future for our grandchildren and the project as a whole. --Æ&Œ (talk) 07:19, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: I think that even if editors want to remove conversations from their talk pages, the page histories should still be kept publicly viewable for anyone who wants to look up past discussions. —Mr. Granger (talkcontribs) 01:09, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Is anti‐semitism a hyponym of racism?Edit

--Æ&Œ (talk) 02:37, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Whether it is or isn't is not for a dictionary to decide. --WikiTiki89 02:51, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Why do you think that? It is certainly a matter a dictionary can make a decision about. This dictionary includes hyponym and hypernym sections; see e.g. the entry hypernym. Even if it didn't, it would include entries for anti-Semitism and racism. It is simple to check if is there a sense of anti-Semitism by which it is a hyponym (word or phrase whose semantic field is included within that of another word) of some sense of racism. The answer to Æ&Œ's question is: Yes, there is a sense of anti-Semitism which is a hyponym of racism: specifically, anti-Semitism’s sense "prejudice, discrimination [...] directed against ethnic [...] Jews" is a hyponym of racism’s sense "prejudice or discrimination based upon race" (where race is defined by one dictionary as "a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic stock", and by us even more broadly as "a group of sentient beings, particularly people, distinguished by common heritage or characteristics"). - -sche (discuss) 04:09, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Point taken. I guess what I meant is that we can't decide which is the "correct" definition of racism. --WikiTiki89 04:29, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
It's not. Anti-semitism is an opinion. And Jewish people aren't a "race" like Africans or Mongols, so it can't be racism. -- Liliana 23:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
Racism is also just an opinion. And whether the Jewish people are a race is a debated question and exactly something that dictionaries should not pick sides on. See our definition #1.1 of race#Etymology 2. --WikiTiki89 03:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I think it's a hyponym of xenophobia. And it's not just an opinion. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Editing a paradigmEdit

How does one go about editing individual words within the drop-down paradigm boxes? I want to change the perfect middle/passive infinitive on the λείπω page from "λελείφθαι" to "λελεῖφθαι". —This unsigned comment was added by 156.34.155.209 (talkcontribs).

Hmmm..that is an interesting case. Give me a little time to research the paradigm, and see if the template needs to be tweaked, or if it's a one-off kind of thing. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:30, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, it appears that certain classes of infinitives, including the perfect m/p infinitive, always accent the penult, which is contrary to the typical tendency of verbs to have a recessive accent. I'm sorry I missed that. I'll adjust the template to allow for that, and then make the necessary addition to the entry. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
Fixed. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:51, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I just assume it's the same pefect-tense funny business that gives paroxytones to participles like λελειμμένος.

I noticed a similar instance with the accentuation given for the m/p perfect infinite of γίγνομαι. It should be γεγενῆσθαι. It seems the template is marking the -αι ending as long, when it should be here treated as short.

It's not that simple....or perhaps it's not that complicated. The template doesn't know whether a given vowel or diphthong is long or short. All it does is join the proper parameter with the appropriate ending. The problem is that I didn't know about this facet of perfect inflection when I wrote the template, and so I didn't include a parameter for the passive stem with a circumflex on its ultimate. For future reference, all you have to do if you see the problem in the future is to enter a 7th parameter with the appropriate stem/accent combo, like I did on γίγνομαι. I'll go through the perfect templates and make sure they all make use of it. If you don't feel comfortable doing so, just give me a holler and I'm happy to take care of it. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:16, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Is there a guide on how to edit the paradigms for nouns, as well? I tried to change the dative plural of σφήξ from σφησί to σφηξί but couldn't figure out how. -Buskin (talk) 04:17, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

A few of them do, but most of them don't. Medellia wrote the first ones, and she included documentation on a precious few, and I don't think I wrote documentation for any of my noun/adjective ones. I would suggest the following things: 1. Read User:Medellia/Atelier/Ancient Greek to get a feel for the naming conventions, so that you can look at an inflection template category, and pick out the one you need. 2. If you're having difficulty figuring out the correct inputs, look at the template page itself, or call the template and preview it without any parameters. This will often give you a good feel for what they should be. 3. Please feel free to drop me a line if you're having difficulty. grc inflection is a hideously complex monster (I blame the Greeks, not myself :-)). So, taking σφήξ (sphēks) as an example. You start at Category:Ancient Greek inflection-table templates, a link I keep on my userpage for easy access and suggest you do the same. You know the word is a noun, so you click on Category:Ancient Greek noun inflection-table templates. You know it's third declension, so you click on Category:Ancient Greek 3rd declension templates. Now, if you read Medellia's explanatory page, you'll recognize the first part of the problem. σφήξ (sphēks) was using {{grc-decl-3rd-dn}}, which is for dentals, while the stem of σφήξ (sphēks) ends on a palatal (not really a palatal, but closer to a palatal than a dental). On first and second declension nouns you can tell the accent from the nom sing, but with thirds you need to look at the gen sing. It's penultimate, which, according to Medellia's page, is unmarked in template names. So, the correct template is {{grc-decl-3rd-lp}}, the template for a third declension noun, ending on a labial or palatal, with accent on the ultimate syllable. If you click on the template and show it, you'll see all the different spots, and what parameters are used in them. The nom sing is simply parameter 1, so you know your first parameter. Parameter 2 appears before endings with an accent, so it's the stem with no accent. Parameter three appears before endings with no accent, so it's probably the stem with an acute on the last stem syllable. All that's left is 4, which is the trickiest one, but I imagine you've already got if figured out. It's simply the stem with no accent plus sigma, which merges with kappa to become xi. I know that's a lot to go through, and it's pointless because I already fixed it, but I promise, if you labor through the process, it'll become intuitive in a hurry. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Latin PronunciationsEdit

New here, so hopefully I'm doing this right. I noticed inconsistencies with the pronunciations of short vowels in Latin Pronunciation, Latin Phonology, and Latin spelling and pronunciation. It could be just a matter of using ɪ, ɛ, ɔ, and ʊ only in the phonetic transcriptions (between square brackets) and i, e, o, and u in the phonemic transcriptions (between slashes) of Latin. I just don't feel I have the authority to make the call. --Brentypie (talk) 02:09, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

There's actually a discussion going about this right now in the Beer Parlour. Maybe you could contribute? —CodeCat 02:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

What are the rules for translation of new technical terms between languages ?Edit

Hello.

I recently created a technical term [[4]] in the English Wiktionnary and want to create its translation in the French Wiktionnaire. To make any answers useful to others, I am asking the following question so that it applies to all pairs of languages. The problem must be fairly common so if it has already been dealt with, please could anybody link from here to the right topic ?

Question:

Is there a standard for translating technical terms between languages ? This global question could be subdivided into four parts:

1. The translation of the term itself is unlikely to be a word-to-word. It has to be intuatively understandable in the destination language and easy to remember. It may also have culturel criteria. Finding a good term is also creative, even witty. It could be open to criticism. Is this creatifity accepted ?

2. It would be good to be able to translate then link to the original definition in the original language. But then the original-language definition could get modified. Is referral between different-language wiktionaries allowed ?

3. When translating a scientific paper or article, one would prefer to get a proper word on-line in the Wikitionnary first, then use it in the translation. This avoids the risk of "orphan" words, rejected and never to be used again. It also gives an opening for constructive criticisme of word choice. It does imply that a yet never-used word will momentarly appear in the Wiktionnary. Is this procedure accepted by the community ?

4. Referral to source-language references from the destination-language definition will be foreign and maybe not understandable to the reader who wants to check. Is this between-languages referencing allowed ?

Thankyou for any suggestions.

Paul_Wi11iams

Translations are frequently, if not usually, not word for word. There are some important differences that pertain to various kinds of translation: technical translations do not have to be intuitively understandable, and often are only understandable to professionals in the industry; they certainly do not need to be creative or witty, and generally are not open to criticism. Literary translations usually are broadly understandable, and sometimes wit and creativity are appropriate.
Most of the terms you will find in Wiktionary are not technical terms, but literary terms. Translators of scientific and engineering papers probably would not find Wiktionary very useful. As for word choice, that is a big thing in literary translations, but in technical translations, there is much less word choice, and technical terms frequently have only one or two appropriate translations (although in some languages, masking terms (such as hypernyms) are often needed to avoid repeating a certain term too often, which is frowned on in some cultures.
We do not make source-language references. References are made by way of citations taken from printed works in the same language.
The more relevant consideration for us here is that the word, in order to be acceptable as dictionary material, must be spelled correct, written in the proper script, described properly in terms of grammar (gender, conjugation, declension, etc.), and used in at least three separate printed books over a year old. —Stephen (Talk) 09:45, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Someone is purposefully manipulating a topicEdit

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shutter_shades

Someone has locked this page from edits in an attempt to discredit the work of an individual and a company that coined the term and trademarked it. They are posing the term as an example of "trademark erosion" for legal advantage.

Shutter Shades Inc. coined the term with respect to sunglasses and has been an entity since 2007. http://www.crunchbase.com/company/shutter-shades

Please advise on how to correct this massive error.

Thank you. Neogeo911 (talk) 18:51, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

From what I've seen, you've attempted to change the meaning of the word, and removed any mention of trademark erosion and other good content from the page. You also did this several times, being reverted each time. This counts as "edit warring" and is a cause for blocking. By all appearances, it is you who is purposefully manipulating the entry, not anyone else. The entry was protected to prevent this from happening again. If you represent this company, you should not be editing the entry as it presents a conflict of interest. —CodeCat 19:09, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Wiktionary is a dictionary. We include all words that are attestable by our standards. This includes brand names that have come to be used generally to refer to products of a certain type. Other examples: kleenex, band-aid, and jello. The fact that we include such entries isn't an attempt to "discredit" the brands in question. It's simply part of our mission to document the English language. -Cloudcuckoolander (talk) 19:39, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Plurals?Edit

I spend a bit of time around here, but I'm definitely not part of the woodwork, and occasionally I wonder what I should do in a given set of circumstances. I came across element (a bit of a mess, which is fairly common for this kind of entry) and also elements. There is quite some duplication between the two entries. What is the usual practice for these "plural only" senses? Do they go in the singular entry or the plural entry? This, that and the other (talk) 12:06, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

There was some discussion about this a while ago. I think most people agreed that we should not spread definitions across multiple forms of the same word. So that would mean that we maintain a strict separation between lemma entries and form-of entries, and one lemma ("element" in this case) can't have more than one lemma entry with definitions in it. —CodeCat 12:46, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
But the problem is that element has senses that are usually or exclusively found in the plural; these are currently senses 5 and 9, which correspond to senses 2 and 4 of elements. I can certainly understand the desire to keep those definitions at the plural form, just as the main definitions of scissors and trousers are at the plural forms, not at scissor and trouser. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:02, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
As far as I know, the agreement was to use one lemma entry per lemma, to avoid scattering definitions for what is essentially the same word across different entries, making them hard to find. But that doesn't mean the lemma entry has to be at the singular form. For words like scissor and trouser it makes more sense to have the senses at the plural, and have the singular entries as "singular form of", because the plurals are much more widely used. With element that's not the case, it's used more in the singular. —CodeCat 14:10, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, "more commonly used" shouldn't be the only criterion; words like shoes, toes, eyes, and ears are more commonly used in the plural than the singular (and so, according to b.g.c. Ngrams is elements), but that doesn't mean we should use the plurals as the lemma forms in those cases. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:19, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
I would argue that scissor needs to include as a definition "a pair of scissors" (possibly with some label) with a usage example "Hand me a scissor", whereas trouser is not often used similarly in my experience. DCDuring TALK 17:04, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
Last modified on 19 April 2014, at 17:04