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Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2020-04/Use of "eye dialect" label

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Use of "eye dialect" label edit

Voting on: Use of "eye dialect" label.

Please note that this vote was originally intended to cover the use of the "eye dialect" and "pronunciation spelling" labels together, but in the light of comments arising I have decided to limit it to the former in order to reduce permutations/complexity, and the voting options have changed from its original incarnation. The "pronunciation spelling" label can be dealt with at a later stage.

Please vote separately on the three options below. In the event that more than one option passes, none will automatically be implemented.

Schedule:

Discussion:

Option 1 edit

Use the "eye dialect" label both for nonstandard spellings representing nonstandard pronunciations (e.g. borrowin' for borrowing and anyfink for anything), as well as for certain* nonstandard spellings representing standard pronunciations (e.g. sed for said or wimmin for women).

* I have been unable to ascertain precisely which types of word in this category supporters of this option would like to include.

Note: In the case of nonstandard spellings representing nonstandard pronunciations, especially, there is presently no clear distinction between "eye dialect" and "pronunciation spelling", with some entries, such as borrowin' and anyfink, labelled "eye dialect", and others, such as fixin' and fink (for think), labelled "pronunciation spelling", for no apparent reason. The implication of this option passing would be that the latter would become eligible for conversion from "pronunciation spelling" to "eye dialect".

Support edit
Oppose edit
  1.   Oppose. PUC – 18:41, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  2.   Oppose —Mahāgaja · talk 19:18, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  3.   Oppose --{{victar|talk}} 19:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  4.   Oppose; see below. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 00:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  5.   Oppose – our labels should aim to use words with their standard meanings to best facilitate reader comprehension. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  6.   Oppose. Correctitude is important. --Uisleach (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  7.   Oppose. do not use labels in non-standard senses.  --Lambiam 15:35, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  8.   Oppose Does not seem accurate. Equinox ◑ 20:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  9.   Oppose Not only does not seem accurate, but I don't think the term itself is extremely well-known, so we end up intentionally popularizing an esoteric term with the wrong meaning, thus diminishing its meaning. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 08:56, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  10.   Oppose RichardW57 (talk) 13:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  11.   Oppose ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  12.   Oppose İʟᴀᴡᴀ–Kᴀᴛᴀᴋᴀ (talk) (edits) 22:59, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  13.   Oppose --Pokechu22 (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  14.   Oppose. Imetsia (talk) 20:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain edit
Decision edit

Failed 0–14. —Mahāgaja · talk 23:24, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Option 2 edit

Abolish the "eye dialect" label. Where agreed/appropriate, use the "pronunciation spelling" label instead, but the exact scope of "pronunciation spelling" to be decided at a later stage, once "eye dialect" is resolved.

Support edit
  1.   Support as second choice to Option 3 (i.e. only if Option 3 fails). Eye dialect spellings are a specific type (and proper subset) of pronunciation spellings. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:20, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  2.   Support This proposal aligns best with my steadfast view that that trying to maintain a distinction between "pronunciation spelling" and "eye dialect" is misguided and futile, because:
    • The average user (or even the average editor) will not understand what is meant by such a distinction; the fact that a debate is being held about it shows that its nature is far from obvious or universally agreed upon. The opacity of the distinction also means that it's likely to be inaccurate or misleading.
    • Deciding what terms are "eye dialect" and what terms are "pronunciation spellings" is additional work, taking time away from tasks which are more productive and of more apparent benefit to the average user. Additionally, determining what terms fit in each category is far from trivial or apparent, so disputes and acrimony surrounding this matter (edit wars, etc.) are likely.
    Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 00:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  3.   Support as an acceptable option. —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  4.   Support. Our inability to maintain a distinction (in edits by both veteran and new editors) prior to now does not suggest that we will start being able to maintain it (in actual practice), even outside of edge cases where e.g. it's unclear whether a spelling is intended to represent a standard or nonstandard pronunciation or where e.g. sed is used along spellings representing nonstandard pronunciations. - -sche (discuss) 23:16, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  5.   Support The term "eye dialect" is somewhat esoteric, and Wiktionary is helping to popularize a term without popularizing its actual meaning. The lack of clear understanding from editors and users only adds to the confusion. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 08:56, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose edit
  1.   Oppose --{{victar|talk}} 19:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  2.   Oppose. Can we not link the label to a definition of the term? RichardW57 (talk) 13:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    We do do that, but I'm not sure that the linked information is entirely stable. Mihia (talk) 22:44, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I actually added a link to the definition before I knew about this vote. Perhaps linking to Appendix:Glossary#eye dialect instead would make sense, but currently {{eye dialect of}} doesn't do that. --Pokechu22 (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  3.   Oppose ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  4.   Oppose -- There are some languages where the orthography and pronunciation are entirely orthogonal, such as Japanese. As an example, 39 (san kyū) literally means three nine based on visual representation, but as pronounced, it is サンキュー (sankyū, “thank you”). Similarly, よろしく can be spelled 4649 or 夜露死苦 (literally “night dew dying painful”). The pronunciations are identical in both standard and eye-dialect spellings, so abolishing the "eye dialect" label and using the "pronunciation spelling" label instead would produce nonsensical results for entries like this. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:39, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  5.   Oppose ... eye dialect is distinct from pronunciation spelling. The former implies lack of knowledge of proper spelling, whereas the latter is intentional. —Soap— 22:28, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure that this is necessarily correct. In some sense of "eye dialect", the non-standard spelling is deliberately used by the writer, as I understand it. Mihia (talk) 22:43, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  6.   Oppose İʟᴀᴡᴀ–Kᴀᴛᴀᴋᴀ (talk) (edits) 22:59, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  7.   Oppose --Pokechu22 (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  8.   Oppose. Imetsia (talk) 20:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain edit
  1.   Abstain. Support if the proposal below doesn't pass. PUC – 18:41, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  2.   Abstain. I generally am in favor of preserving precise classifications, even if they are finely-shaded. That said, I can see, per Hazarasp's argument, why it would be more practical to subsume "Eye dialect" into the larger, more straightforwardly determined supercategory of "Pronunciation spelling". Tangentially, and regardless, I'm in support of very stringent and and high-bar critera for inclusion for such words. --Uisleach (talk) 20:21, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  3.   Abstain since I prefer option 3. Equinox ◑ 20:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Decision edit

Failed 8–5. —Mahāgaja · talk 23:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 edit

Restrict the "eye dialect" label to its "strict" meaning; that is, to nonstandard spellings that represent standard pronunciations but are intended to imply that the speaker generally uses a nonstandard dialect, such as sed for said or lissen for listen.

Support edit
  1.   Support. PUC – 18:41, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  2.   Support —Mahāgaja · talk 19:20, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  3.   Support, though I'm not sure whether we'll be able to maintain the distinction in practice. Experience shows editors have trouble with it. It might be better to abolish the "eye dialect" label entirely and avoid the issue (Option 2). —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  4.   Support. --Uisleach (talk) 20:18, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  5.   Support  --Lambiam 15:38, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  6.   Support Equinox ◑ 20:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  7.   Support RichardW57 (talk) 13:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  8.   Support ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 16:35, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  9.   Support but I have to repeat what Ive said elsewhere ... isnt the point of eye dialect to communicate that the speaker doesnt know how to spell? Its not a nonstandard dialect if you pronounce "said" as /sɛd/. —Soap— 22:28, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No, eye dialect is used primarily in direct quotes to indicate that the speaker generally uses a nonstandard dialect, even though the word in question is pronounced the same as in the standard. It's usually used alongside spellings that really do reflect nonstandard forms. The 1871 quote at wimmin is teeming with eye dialect: the only genuinely nonstandard forms in that quote are ain’t, kalkerlate, and ruther. Every other misspelling there actually reflects standard pronunciation, but the overall impression conveyed by the spelling is that the speaker is an uneducated hick. —Mahāgaja · talk 23:41, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps it is more precise to say that the impression given is that the speaker's knowledge of words is based on pronunciation rather than spelling—i.e., that he/she is illiterate or using a dialect that is not written.— Pingkudimmi 07:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  10.   Support İʟᴀᴡᴀ–Kᴀᴛᴀᴋᴀ (talk) (edits) 22:59, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  11.   Support— Pingkudimmi 07:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  12.   Support even if its significance is somewhat obscure and not consensually solid, it is more important to enrich the gloss with linguistic nuances of this sort. Wiktionary shouldn't just adopt to lexical conventions, but rather contribute to them. As for it being a source of confusion for editors, this might be resolved by laying the distinction out in the respective guidelines and maybe referring to the latter in the tempalte documentation as well. Assem Khidhr (talk) 23:37, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  13.   Support --Pokechu22 (talk) 20:05, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  14.   Support. Imetsia (talk) 20:34, 31 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose edit
  1.   Oppose --{{victar|talk}} 19:34, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Victar I see you oppose all three options, so just out of curiosity, how do you think the label should be used? Mihia (talk) 21:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  2.   Oppose; see above. Hazarasp (parlement · werkis) 00:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Abstain edit
  1.   Abstain I don't think this is wrong, but there would need to be a way to make it clear to editors when to use it and when not to - and this just doesn't seem to be the way Wiktionary works. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 08:56, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Decision edit

Option 3 gets the victory. Congratulations. Long story short, status quo remains and no action need to be taken. --Kriss Barnes (talk) 00:51, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, one action does need to be taken: going through Category:English eye dialect to correct the entries that are not actually eye dialect. I'll go through and fix some of them, but others' help would be appreciated. —Granger (talk · contribs) 01:57, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. Option 3 is not the status quo. The status quo is a complete mess, with all sorts of things that aren't eye dialect being labeled "eye dialect". And there are 22 other languages whose eye dialect categories need to be gone through and corrected. —Mahāgaja · talk 06:26, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Option 3 wins and people need to clean up some crap. --Kriss Barnes (talk) 12:18, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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