Module talk:zh/data/dial-syn/沙河粉

河粉 = 粿條?

@The dog2, I don't know if these are necessarily the same thing. They're very similar, but they are usually associated with different groups and may be made slightly differently. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:36, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: In the Singaporean context, 河粉 is usually wider than 粿條. And yes it's true that they are associated with different groups. In Singapore, 粿條 is associated with the Hokkiens and Teochews, while 河粉 is associated with the Cantonese. However, when I went to Hong Kong and had 乾炒牛河, their 河粉 was basically the same as our 粿條. The dog2 (talk) 16:41, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: If we do indeed keep this, I don't know if 沙河粉 is the appropriate label for this since it's biased towards the Cantonese variant. I don't think there's a term that is neutral for this. @Suzukaze-c, Mar vin kaiser, RcAlex36, Thedarkknightli, thoughts? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:45, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung:I will admit though that in the Singaporean context, this is complicated by the fact that code switching is extremely common when talking about food. For instance, even when people are speaking Hokkien, they would often just use the Cantonese name when talking about Cantonese dishes and vice versa. And sometimes, people even mix pronunciations from different dialects (eg. 雲吞麵 is often pronounced using the Cantonese pronunciation of 雲吞 and the Hokkien pronunciation of 麵). For Malay and Indian dishes, people usually just stick to the Malay names even though there are formal Chinese names for those dishes that we learn in school (eg. roti prata is always said as such in practice, even though the official Chinese name we learn in school is 印度煎餅). And likewise, for Western things like cakes, bacon and ice cream, people will just use the English names even when speaking other languages. The dog2 (talk) 18:05, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I was thinking that usually when we make dialectal synonym modules like these, it's something that is found China-wide. Like something found throughout China. This food is kind of specific in Fujian and Guangdong, and of course, their immigrant areas. So I don't think it's as suitable for this module. Secondly, especially in Mainland China and Taiwan, is 粿條 served in Hong Kong for example called by Hong Kongers as 河粉? Vice versa, in let's say Taiwan, is 河粉 served in Taiwan called 粿條? I'm not sure, but I don't think so. So it doesn't seem right to put these together in a dialectal synonym module like this. Just my thoughts. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 00:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: Thanks for your thoughts. I think I basically agree with you. In Hong Kong, when we eat Malaysian-style 粿條, we call it 貴刁. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:40, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it necessarily needs to be found throughout China for it to have dialectal synonyms. I think this is useful too when something regional has a different Mandarin name from its local dialect name. For instance, oyster omelette is a regional dish, but in Xiamen, people call it 海蠣煎 when speaking Mandarin, and 蚵仔煎 when speaking Hokkien. But I will admit that for this particular thing, it's more complicated. I've seen 貴刁 at Malaysian restaurants in Australia, but I always thought it was an attempt to approximate the Hokkien pronunciation of 粿條 in Mandarin. The dog2 (talk) 01:42, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: 貴刁 is essentially a loanword from Hokkien/Teochew into Cantonese/Mandarin. We don't usually call 貴刁 河粉 or vice versa. They're both some kind of broad, flat rice noodle, but they're distinct. I don't think this module should exist. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:47, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘OK then. I never went to a Malaysian restaurant in Hong Kong, so I guess that's why I did not hear 貴刁 there. The closest thing to our 炒粿條 that I ate in Hong Kong was 干炒牛河, and it seem like they used the same noodles but just gave it a different name. It's certainly true that we don't use 粿條 and 河粉 interchangeably in Singapore either. Anyway, I won't stand in the way of deleting this module. The dog2 (talk) 06:14, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of which, I wonder how relevant you consider this point to the discussion, but Wikipedia considers 河粉 and 粿條 to be different names for the same thing. The dog2 (talk) 21:30, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I just checked 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典, and it does define 粿仔 as "河粉、粄條", so I guess we could have this module. However, it'd be difficult to know what we should do with words like 貴刁. Do we include such words, or only include words that are used for local foods? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:52, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

We could probably do with adding notes. Like in Singapore, 河粉 is used when we are referring to Cantonese dishes, but 粿條 is used when referring to Hokkien or Teochew dishes. The dog2 (talk) 02:01, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: I'm not a fan of putting too many notes :/ — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:15, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

I guess maybe we can do it a similar way with what we did for 海蠣煎. We made a special note for Hong Kong that 蚵仔煎 only refers to the Taiwanese version. The problem with these dialect tables in general is that it is hard to account for code switching, which is especially common in places like Singapore and Malaysia.

By the way, I wonder if we should do a dialect table for thin egg noodles. I know it's called 幼麵 in Cantonese, and 麵囝 in Hokkien. The dog2 (talk) 02:48, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Haifeng

@The dog2 I can't find it in the video. Could you also put the time stamp? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:15, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Sure. It's at about 10:07. Sorry, I forgot that that segment did not have subtitles. The dog2 (talk) 21:28, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Just being picky here, how do we know that it's referring to the same thing as in Teochew? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:38, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: When he was singing that part, it cut to an image of 粿條, but anyway, see this article. 粿條 is one of the local specialities of Shanwei. The dog2 (talk) 21:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)