Talk:土庫
Latest comment: 6 years ago by Justinrleung
According to the Ministry of Education in Taiwan, the recommended hanzi-form of thô͘ (soil, earth, mud) is 塗 which is deemed the original character form of that. (ref. http://twblg.dict.edu.tw/holodict_new/iongji/pdf/annesia404pdf.pdf); 土 is the unrecommended alternative form. Besides, there are some placename meaning and sounding like 土庫 (thô͘-khò͘) written in Hanzi as 塗庫 (eg. the old name of 土庫 Tuku Township is "塗庫"莊 (lit. Private-Storehouse Village)). So I added another article "塗庫" and modified 土庫 (as a noun) to be another form of 塗庫.--119.15.250.28 06:43, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- @119.15.250.28: This term is not used exclusively in Min Nan. It's attested in Yuan dynasty texts, which would be written in an archaic form of Mandarin, not Min at all. See this. Please provide proof that 塗庫 is used for all those senses listed. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 06:47, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- I've found a related essay: Toko: An Etymology of a Local Placename and Its Connections to the Maritime Asia--119.15.250.28 06:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- @119.15.250.28: It does say that 土庫 and 塗庫 are referring to the same word, but I don't see evidence that the 塗庫 orthography was ever used for "trading post in the East established by Westerners". — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 07:09, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- 塗庫 is regularized recently (in 2000s) by Ministry of Education, so 塗庫 might be unused before the try of Hanzi Regularization of Taiwanese Hokkien.--119.15.250.28 07:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- @119.15.250.28: Entries in Wiktionary need to pass the attestation criterion (WT:ATTEST). If there is no attestation, the entry will have to be deleted. How do we even know that "trading post in the East established by Westerners" was pronounced with thô͘ rather than thó͘? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 07:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- Duing to the lack of phonetic record, even though the word for trading post might be pronounced Thô͘-khò͘ which should be written as 塗庫 today, it was recorded as 土庫 and there's no direct phonetically evidence. 土庫 for "thô͘-khó͘" may be an unofficial hanzi-form. The usage of unregularized or non-etymological Han characters was too often in Hokkien.--119.15.250.28 08:21, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- We cannot have entries for words that are not attested. If there is no solid evidence that this word was written as 塗庫 or even pronounced as thô͘-khó͘, we cannot consider. Wiktionary is descriptive, not prescriptive, so it does not need to be confined by any "standard". We need to stick with what is 約定俗成, which is not necessarily etymological. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 08:45, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- Duing to the lack of phonetic record, even though the word for trading post might be pronounced Thô͘-khò͘ which should be written as 塗庫 today, it was recorded as 土庫 and there's no direct phonetically evidence. 土庫 for "thô͘-khó͘" may be an unofficial hanzi-form. The usage of unregularized or non-etymological Han characters was too often in Hokkien.--119.15.250.28 08:21, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- @119.15.250.28: Entries in Wiktionary need to pass the attestation criterion (WT:ATTEST). If there is no attestation, the entry will have to be deleted. How do we even know that "trading post in the East established by Westerners" was pronounced with thô͘ rather than thó͘? — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 07:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- 塗庫 is regularized recently (in 2000s) by Ministry of Education, so 塗庫 might be unused before the try of Hanzi Regularization of Taiwanese Hokkien.--119.15.250.28 07:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- @119.15.250.28: It does say that 土庫 and 塗庫 are referring to the same word, but I don't see evidence that the 塗庫 orthography was ever used for "trading post in the East established by Westerners". — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 07:09, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- I've found a related essay: Toko: An Etymology of a Local Placename and Its Connections to the Maritime Asia--119.15.250.28 06:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- @119.15.250.28: Search for 土庫 here. It shows Thó͘-khò͘, capitalized, which should be referring to the place in Taiwan. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 07:00, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- Even though the tone of the placename 土庫/塗庫 may be changed like Thó͘-khò͘, Tho͘-khò͘, etc. according to the historical phonetical changing, (cf. 重探臺北市內「古亭」和「大安」地名源流 -- 一個跨學科考證的嘗試 p.161), but Phoaⁿ Kho-goân (潘科元) say that 土庫 (as place name)should read as thô͘-khò͘ (cf. https://blog.xuite.net/khoguan/blog/286366093), and accroding to 吳Tô ê小傳 (Biography of Ngô͘ Tô͘, 台南府城教會報 Taiwan Prefecture City Church News, 1926), "Gô͘ Tô kun sī Thô͘-khò͘ ê Tiúⁿ-ló" (吳Tô 君是土庫ê長老), 土庫 in Yunlin should read as "Thô͘-khò͘".
- Ps: the essay of the Etymology of Toko can be downloaded here:http://rportal.lib.ntnu.edu.tw/bitstream/77345300/12957/1/ntnulib_ja_B0601_0006_078.pdf --119.15.250.28 07:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, I'll remove that pronunciation for the township in Yunlin. — justin(r)leung { (t...) | c=› } 07:33, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
- Ps: the essay of the Etymology of Toko can be downloaded here:http://rportal.lib.ntnu.edu.tw/bitstream/77345300/12957/1/ntnulib_ja_B0601_0006_078.pdf --119.15.250.28 07:24, 17 March 2018 (UTC)