Fish bowl

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Using Japanese linguistic terminology for Korean etymologies?

For the Korean word 아이, it said that the spelling 兒孩 is ateji (wikt:en:Special:Permalink/78438710). I removed the ateji description, and replaced it with saying that the character 兒 is a hundokja (훈독자 / 訓讀字) in the current version. I feel like it is better to use Korean linguistic terminology rather than Japanese linguistic terminology to describe a Korean word. Is this correct? FunnyMath (talk) 20:38, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah honestly I felt the same way, although I'm not sure that in this case 훈독자 is the right word either? 훈독자 would be 串 = 곶 (got), right? —Fish bowl (talk) 20:46, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

After thinking about it, I think this is what happened: originally, the 아 was not written with 兒. This is because none of the Sino-Korean readings of 兒 were even remotely similar to the 아 sound in Middle Korean 아ᄒᆡ〮 (àhóy) from which 아이 originates. Over time, one of the Sino-Korean readings for 兒 got corrupted into 아, and only then did people start using the spelling 兒孩. This spelling was used until the "h" sound disappeared (from 아해 (ahae) to 아이 (ai)), where there is no longer a confusion that 아이 is a Sino-Korean word, as 이 does not sound like 孩. So I think you're right; it is more accurate to describe the use of 兒 as a phono-semantic matching. I think the person who initially wrote the etymology for 아이 got confused, and thought that the spelling 兒孩 was used before the "a" reading for 兒 developed. I then built on that mistake by thinking that 兒 is a hundokja (훈독자 / 訓讀字). FunnyMath (talk) 21:57, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

(also, regarding the wording "Yeah honestly I felt the same way": I got confused with other Korean entries that also use the word "ateji", actually —Fish bowl (talk) 22:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC))

I suspected that the word "ateji" is used in several other Korean entries. I think this is a problem for two reasons: (1) it is vague, as it could refer to the hanja being used phonetically or semantically, and (2) it might be culturally insensitive to place so much focus on Japanese terminologies instead of Korean ones; it's great that people are thinking of the differences and similarities between Korean and Japanese, but I'm not sure if Koreans would be happy to see that people are using Japanese terms to describe their language, given the history of colonialism and such. Should we go ahead and systematically get rid of all mentions of ateji and replace them with more precise terms? FunnyMath (talk) 18:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

(@Saranamd —Fish bowl (talk) 19:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC))

کمد edit added to "Category:Pages using duplicate arguments in template calls"

Hello there. I recently received a notification that you added the کمد page to a Category called "Category:Pages using duplicate arguments in template calls". I am still relatively a novice at Wikipedia editing and hence, I do not know what that Catagory is, or if the page getting added to it suggests that I have a responsibility to fulfill (e.g. fix/change my edit, or something like that, etc...). It would be great if you could let me know if there is anything I must do, or if it is unrelated to me. Thanks in advance.MarkParker1221 (talk) 11:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

@MarkParker1221 Your edit had "qq2=" twice, which added the entry to the maintenance category Category:Pages using duplicate arguments in template calls (and "qq3=" for the 4th item?), which I corrected in that edit. I notified you in case my correction (changing "qq2"/"qq2"/"qq3" to "qq2"/"qq3"/"qq4") was wrong. (Also, don't worry too much about it, because it is definitely easy to lose track of the numbers or make a typo; there's an alternative syntax without numbers now, too, if you prefer: Template:syn#Inline modifiers) —Fish bowl (talk) 18:14, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I see, thanks for letting me know. Yes, that was a mistake on my end. MarkParker1221 (talk) 00:10, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Are all North Korean entries already stubbified?

I noticed that you once stubbified the entry 령도자 and subsequently transferred the content to the main entry 영도자, thus I'm wondering if every North Korean entry must remain a stub without exceptions as an unspoken rule. Another thing is I feel inclined to re-gloss the word 자욱 which has been glossed as proscribed, sometimes literary or poetic while being the standard spelling form in Munhwaŏ is currently not demonstrated at all so if it would be a clearer and more straightforward way to impose {{ko-regional} template on the term just like any other entry does? Maraschino Cherry (talk) 15:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

@Maraschino Cherry: For practical reasons, we treat SK Korean as the standard: Wiktionary:AKO#North_vs._South_Korea. As for 자욱, based on your decsription, I would add {{ko-regional}} and probably "|or|North Korea" to {{label}}. —Fish bowl (talk) 19:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

nihon kokugo daijiten

@Fish bowl Is the version you're using for etymologies, actually the second edition (第二版)?

(I am curious because back then, I used to have access to JapanKnowledge, via a NINJAL VPN account a professor there created for me, but as the professor retired, I no longer have access to something I find crucial (particularly NKD2 and Nihon Hogen Daijiten), and my local town had suffered from a cyberattack last month and only sometime this month the library systems went up, and even there, the interlibrary loan system is not working, so I can't ILL any books.) Chuterix (talk) 04:51, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

(To e-mail me any information, you can use the "Email this user" feature, which is available in my profile.) Chuterix (talk) 04:52, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

For a similar situation in which successfully, @Kwamikagami e-mailed me some PDFs of the books in possession that I have requested, see User talk:Kwamikagami#Hirayama (1966)

IIRC, s/he did email me several research books, including one dictionary of the Nakijin dialect. I know that Kwami only had the Hirayama 1964, 1966, and 1967, but I don't know what other Japonic/Ryukyuan stuff Kwamikagami may have. Chuterix (talk) 04:57, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

A note is that it is perfectly fine if you do not have materials to give me. Chuterix (talk) 04:58, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

@Chuterix: I use Kotobank and Weblio and don't have any PDFs; sorry. —Fish bowl (talk) 18:32, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

The person who added the etymology at はず was actually @Cnilep, who is still an active WT user; I asked you since I didn't look thoroughly and you just moved the etymology he added ;)

Thank you. Chuterix (talk) 18:38, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi. I think the addition is question is this edit that I did at 筈, right? If memory serves, I would have consulted NKD in Japan Knowledge Lib from my university's library system. Currently that is 「日本国語大辞典 第二版」 (so, NKD2, I guess). I'm not 100% certain what it was in February 2022. I think there were some changes to Japan Knowledge in March 2024, but I'm not quite clear on what they were. Sorry if I didn't pay sufficient attention to the citation template! Cnilep (talk) 02:05, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

@Cnilep Indeed, that was your edit ;)

For the JapanKnowledge NKD2 template, you can use {{R:Nihon Kokugo Daijiten 2 Online}} (made back when a Japonic linguist at NINJAL from Japan gave me JapanKnowledge access via a FortiClient VPN account, but she had left NINJAL, so the account no longer works, which means I no longer have JK access :( Chuterix (talk) 02:24, 24 June 2024 (UTC)