Talk:თალგამი
Latest comment: 11 months ago by Fay Freak in topic talgam
talgam edit
@Fay Freak, does Arabic ṭalḡam exist? Vahag (talk) 14:16, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Also, am I right to read Persian ثلجم here and here? Vahag (talk) 17:31, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: Lagarde botched the transcriptions of Lane, Edward William (1863) “თალგამი”, in Arabic-English Lexicon[1], London: Williams & Norgate, page 1402a but I created the page for ثلجم. Makes me question whether the value /s/ for Classical Persian ث in view of your present Caucasian word is right. Fay Freak (talk) 23:49, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for creating those. ث could have been a t-like sound in Early New Persian or Classical Persian. Otherwise why would they spell Gayōmart as کیومرث. Vahag (talk) 08:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: Even غ (ğ) and ژ (ž) hail only from interdialectal borrowings in Early New Persian, “where the massive presence of interdialectal borrowings has been recognized and studied by many scholars”, Ciancaglini knows 2015, and even a variant /ɣʷ/ is recognized in درغویش for درویش for the sound system of Early New Persian in the The Oxford Handbook of Persian Linguistics, beside the better known /xʷ/. The tolerance for /θ/ must also have been higher in view of Late-Middle-Persian–Early-New-Persian intervocalic allophones [β] and [ð] for /b/ and /d/, and I suspect that in analogy to these and Middle Persian /w/ ~ /β/ (in the latter form the basis for Arabic إِبَّان (ʔibbān) and أَوَان (ʔawān)) to /v/ and /b/, sometimes via /ɡʷ/ as they see in a گس (gʷas) for بس (bas) from MP. was cognate to Baluchi گوس (gwas), sporadic /θ/ borrowed from somewhere, and hence under pressure for its sheer rarity, could also become /t/, instead of the better-known value /s/ for ⟨ث⟩, as across languages stopping of the voiceless dental fricative is known well and probably even more common. And this also means that /θ/ existed for a Neo-Persian chronolect, with the example of Gayōmart. Fay Freak (talk) 12:30, 21 June 2023 (UTC) The coming-about of Arabic ثَرِيد (ṯarīd) is also not well answered yet. Fay Freak (talk) 08:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- There is an article on /θ/ in New Persian. Vahag (talk) 15:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- Makes sense. One should not be interested in historical Persian pronunciation details without having basic Persian reading skills. So I know what I have to read if I am procrastinative enough to take a few days off to learn Persian. Although I still wonder where in Western sources it has been discussed, as including on Wiktionary people tend to believe things better the more familiar the language is in which it has been written. Probably in ones which have not been digitized and not even pirated; else nobody will even consider it concerning Persian transliteration or pronunciation templates if the argument rests upon rogue state language. People rather copy repetitive movie series and novelty dances for closed-source apps than being interested in science even half an hour a day. It’s the same in the West, Russia, Iran and China, consensus decisions are more available than rational investigation. Therefore, the most educational material is not relatively unlikely to be found on spam websites and videogame chats. Fay Freak (talk) 16:58, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- There is an article on /θ/ in New Persian. Vahag (talk) 15:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: Even غ (ğ) and ژ (ž) hail only from interdialectal borrowings in Early New Persian, “where the massive presence of interdialectal borrowings has been recognized and studied by many scholars”, Ciancaglini knows 2015, and even a variant /ɣʷ/ is recognized in درغویش for درویش for the sound system of Early New Persian in the The Oxford Handbook of Persian Linguistics, beside the better known /xʷ/. The tolerance for /θ/ must also have been higher in view of Late-Middle-Persian–Early-New-Persian intervocalic allophones [β] and [ð] for /b/ and /d/, and I suspect that in analogy to these and Middle Persian /w/ ~ /β/ (in the latter form the basis for Arabic إِبَّان (ʔibbān) and أَوَان (ʔawān)) to /v/ and /b/, sometimes via /ɡʷ/ as they see in a گس (gʷas) for بس (bas) from MP. was cognate to Baluchi گوس (gwas), sporadic /θ/ borrowed from somewhere, and hence under pressure for its sheer rarity, could also become /t/, instead of the better-known value /s/ for ⟨ث⟩, as across languages stopping of the voiceless dental fricative is known well and probably even more common. And this also means that /θ/ existed for a Neo-Persian chronolect, with the example of Gayōmart. Fay Freak (talk) 12:30, 21 June 2023 (UTC) The coming-about of Arabic ثَرِيد (ṯarīd) is also not well answered yet. Fay Freak (talk) 08:34, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for creating those. ث could have been a t-like sound in Early New Persian or Classical Persian. Otherwise why would they spell Gayōmart as کیومرث. Vahag (talk) 08:40, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
- @Vahagn Petrosyan: Lagarde botched the transcriptions of Lane, Edward William (1863) “თალგამი”, in Arabic-English Lexicon[1], London: Williams & Norgate, page 1402a but I created the page for ثلجم. Makes me question whether the value /s/ for Classical Persian ث in view of your present Caucasian word is right. Fay Freak (talk) 23:49, 20 June 2023 (UTC)