Talk:王

Graphical significance

Does anyone know the etymology of this symbol? When I was in Japan, a student told me that the figure symbolizes the role of the king as the vertical connection between the sea, the earth and heaven (the three horizontal lines). Is this anyone else's understanding? — This unsigned comment was added by 99.239.141.7 (talk) at 02:19, 24 May 2008.

Mandarin?

There is inappropriate use of the word 'mandarin' on this page. 王 is not the 'mandarin character of Wong'. 王 is a Chinese character, and it is factually incorrect to say '王 is the mandarin character of Wong', implying that Wong is the true, standard pronounciation is 王. 王 is also not bound to mandarin; what in the world is a 'mandarin character'?

There is also no 'mandarin wikipedia'. The Chinese written standard across all Chinese languages/dialects is based on mandarin, but this written standard is accepted as the written standard and never called 'mandarin'. Only the spoken language is called 'mandarin'.122.57.62.38 06:37, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

The Rolled Sound

This might be a bit of a strech, but my younger sister cannot pronounce the European rolled R. Instead, she sometimes made a rolling sound with her lips or from the back of the throat. Is it possible that the variation between GW and R is that someone had trouble understanding the pronounciation of the other? Regio, Rex, Reges, Ric, Rix, Rajia et cetera and Gʷaŋ, Wang, Vong, Uuan et cetera?

官家 - guānjiā (Emperor, Government - That that corrects?) राज्य - rājyá (ɽɑːd͡ʑ.jɐ́) (Royalty, Kingdom)

Heanrig Lundenwaras (talk) 08:49, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Samueljaggs, see the semantic and phonetic development described at 王#Etymology_1. Compare the semantics and phonetics at Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h₃rḗǵs.

Notable mismatches:

• The derivation prior to Old Chinese is disputed. However, the various leading theories relate to superiority, strength, or a palace. Meanwhile, the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) term is derived from root *h₃reǵ- (“regular, right, straight, just”) + suffixing element *s (used to derive nouns from roots).
• None of the potential derivations for the Old Chinese include any initial /r-/, instead exhibiting initial /db-/, /v-/, /qʷ-/, or /ɡʷ-/. None of these correlate at all well with PIE initial /h₃r-/.
• PIE ends in consonant cluster /-ɡs/, while the postulated Old Chinese antecedents all have final /-ŋ/.

Any relatedness here appears quite unlikely, and the slight similarity is probably no more than chance resemblance -- which is actually a very common confusion when comparing isolated vocabulary from any two languages. See also this informative essay: How likely are chance resemblances between languages? The conclusion: very likely. The author also presents mathematical models to show how likely this is, depending on various constraints. Worth a read. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 06:12, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, I will read the page linked. Heanrig Lundenwaras (talk) 08:18, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Oracle Bone Script Variant

Is it possible that the Oracle Bone Script Variant of the Chinese symbol is related to the symbol of Tenet?

Mother Tangou, Mother Tengri? Dengwos, Dengria. Degwos, dewos, deus. tsoios.

王月 (in oracle bone form) looks similar to the Phonecian symbol in my eye.

Heanrig Lundenwaras (talk) 09:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Samueljaggs, what "symbol of Tenet"? What "Phonecian symbol"? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 05:56, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, Tanit - not Tenet. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/Tophet_Carthage.2.jpg The Chinese means monarch, champion? 王 So, champion of the Moon, Queen of the Moon? 王月 Or under Rome, Iuno Caelestis. Could this refer to the stars or the night sky instead of the moon specifically? Or rather the absence of the Sun? Or a constellation or direction? Or Champion of a high place?

Heanrig Lundenwaras (talk) 08:03, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

@Samueljaggs, by the time the proto-Chinese was written down as the precursor of 月, the meaning was likely already fixed as moon: the glyph is in fact a pictogram of the moon.

As described at w:Tanit and at w:Sign of Tanit, that symbol is a stylized image of a person wearing a skirt or dress, with outstretched arms, under some kind of celestial object, perhaps a crescent moon. The arms are often depicted either bent upwards, or ending in hooks, perhaps stylized hands.

By comparison, the Chinese glyph 王 is likely derived from a stylized image of a ceremonial axe or perhaps a crown, as described at 王#Glyph_origin. The horizontal strokes are straight, no bending, no hooks, except for the Liushutong version -- which was compiled during the w:Ming dynasty, which started in the 1300s and is thus irrelevant to this discussion.

Unrelated.

Consider too that the Phoenician symbol arises likely no sooner than the late 800s BCE, and in the western Mediterranean -- about as far as you can get from China and still be in Eurasia. Meanwhile, the Chinese glyph apparently arose during the w:Shang dynasty, 1766 to 1122 BCE, or possibly 1556 to 1046 BCE, with the w:oracle bone script falling out of use with the end of the dynasty. So there's around a 200-300 year gap between the end of the oracle bone script and the rise of Tanit. See also w:Punics#History.

Unrelated.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 08:55, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

I realise that Chinese is a different language and culture etc, but Oracle bone script looks very similar to some european words to me. For example, 我. 我 In oracle bone script looks extremely similar to the European to me. To add to this the pronounciation seems to align. 我 = ngo, wo, nguāi et cetera. I would compare this to the Germanic, Latin etc: EGO, EK, ΕΓΩ, अहम्. (NG)GO, ANG'GO. To me the symbol in oracle (我), looks alot like a Greek spelling, with a Italian/Phonecian ke, like the latin or germanic (elder-fu). See the Greek U / F, which would be a linear B U. Or the Greek U? Rather than the Greek Y (U/ I). OO, not EI/OI/UI

Heanrig Lundenwaras (talk) 08:04, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Your comment is confusing: "Oracle bone script looks very similar to some european words to me." 我 does not look like any word in any European language I know of. Nor does the oracle bone version of that character, . If anything, it looks to me like a halberd or weird rake. Possibly a backwards capital E attached to a capital F, which isn't a word. While the Latin letters trace back to Phoenician, the Phoenician alphabet (or rather, abjad) was coeval with the Shang dynasty: see w:Phoenician_alphabet#History. The Phoenician glyphs were phonetic symbols, while the Chinese characters have never been only phonetic. In addition, the Phoenician precursor of Latin E derived from a hieroglyph of a person with arms upraised in apparent prayer (see w:E#History), and the F derived from a hieroglyph of a mace or club (see w:F#History). While the F and 我 origins may both be weapons, the similarities end there.

Note that the Latin, Greek, and Sanskrit you mention all trace back to Proto-Indo-European *éǵh₂. The Chinese traces back to Proto-Sino-Tibetan *ŋa-j ~ ka. Again, a very poor match, and highly unlikely to be related.

I'd suggest that you also read the Wikipedia page on w:Pareidolia. I suspect you're seeing patterns that aren't actually there. While interesting and suggestive, many of these musings appear to be dead ends. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 08:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank You; I see what you are saying. I meant F pronounced as oo, or we. 𐀄 Ϝ, or perhaps ie, as in yodh.Heanrig Lundenwaras (talk) 09:04, 24 May 2020 (UTC) Syllabaries and SemiSyllabaries were used in Europe for a time. For example, the Paleo-Hispanic and Cypriot Scripts.

Oracle Bone script - "in the late 2nd millennium BC"; This would line up with some PIE migration? Influence rather than much more? Heanrig Lundenwaras (talk) 08:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century_BC

Even if the Shang script were coeval with PIE migration, the geography is all wrong -- the PIE Urheimat is somewhere in the central Asian steppe, probably north of the Black Sea, while the Shang script never got further west than central China. Thousands of miles separate these two areas. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 08:51, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Also "ruler"?

Can this also be translated as "ruler"? 173.88.246.138 17:02, 30 May 2021 (UTC)