Talk:culpable homicide

Definition

The more one tries to add every definition that has been used throughout time and space, the more apparent it becomes that the term refers to any homicide that is culpable in a given jurisdiction (which it doesn't consider under another label, e.g. "murder"). - -sche (discuss) 19:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Hello, the South Africa and Scotland Laws are different definitions, not the same. he opening definition is correct "Unlawful Death" can be murder or manslaughter or infanticide. I think it is important to have a generalized English definition, not just legal definitions. However, I am flexible on the generalized definition. Do you have a constructive suggestion to improve it? Thank you WritersCramp (talk) 19:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

As it stands, manslaughter doesn't mention negligence and our South African definition does. So as it stands, they are not synonymous. Renard Migrant (talk) 19:40, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

You are mistaken; manslaughter is defined as "an act of killing a human being unlawfully, but not wilfully", which is not lexically distinct from "the unlawful negligent killing of another human being". (@Renard: "not willfully" killing someone means killing them through negligence.) I am trying to avoid having to RFV and then potentially RFD this entry on the above-cited grounds that I doubt it's possible to find any of the senses in use distinct from an {{&lit}} sense, i.e. I doubt any use can even be conceived of that uses one of the narrow senses without meaning "[[culpable]] [[homicide]]". Your generalized definition is incorrect for the reason I gave in my original edit summary. Regarding the general undesirability of having the precise legal definitions of every jurisdiction in the world throughout history, see this long discussion, particularly the bits about the term murder. Wiktionary is not an encyclopaedia/compendium of laws. - -sche (discuss) 19:46, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

...though we do seem to have Category:en:Standards of identity! Equinox ◑ 20:35, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Sche, each country has their own legal definition, those have been added. I believe that the generic definition for English covers most of the legal definitions in a general way. "criminal negligence causing the unlawful death of a human being. "Criminal negligence" reflects the negligence, "Unlawful death" reflects either, murder, or manslaughter and "human being" is self evident, i.e. does not apply to any other animal. Please feel free to poke holes in my arguments -:) Thanks WritersCramp (talk) 20:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

We only have one definition of culpable which is "Meriting condemnation, censure or blame, especially as something wrong, harmful or injurious; blameworthy". So the sum of parts interpretation is a homicide which merits condemnation, censure or blame. While I suppose this makes sense, it suggests that not all homicides merit condemnation, censure or blame. Which to me is a bit like saying a serious fatal accident (as opposed to all those trivial fatal accidents you keep hearing about). Renard Migrant (talk) 20:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

As a dictionary, it's not our job to quote verbatim the laws of every country you can imagine. Civil War was a bit like this where the definition was American Civil War, it was successfully argued that if you include that one, you have to include English Civil War as well, otherwise your biased. Soon we ended up with 8 definition pointing to 8 different civil wars, because all of the definitions were attestable, why exclude some? You can find the 8 definition version here. FWIW the current definition is a bit pointless (to say the least). Renard Migrant (talk) 21:04, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Re: "these have been added". You've got three covered. Have you checked all the other countries in this list? Chuck Entz (talk) 21:59, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, there has to be a cutoff point, I am not sure where that is yet. However, pertaining to the generic definition, I still think it is okay. WritersCramp (talk) 22:19, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

This definition is wrong: "Homicide which is culpable but does not rise to the level of murder; unlawful killing of a human being which does not constitute murder." Murder can be culpable homicide in Canada and perhaps other countries. It is better to use the idiom unlawful death. WritersCramp (talk) 08:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Protected

As WritersCramp was not just edit warring, but also adding a variety of WT:ELE noncompliant headers to the entry, I've protected the entry for one week. I would like to encourage WritersCramp to be more open to discussion, and not just assume "their" views are the only ones possible. —CodeCat 19:58, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

RFV discussion: September–December 2014

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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culpable homicide

RFV-sense of three senses. I believe that the only use of the term is with sense 1 ("homicide which is culpable but does not rise to the level of murder"). The "Scottish" and "South African" senses aren't even independent of each other, let alone sense 1. See also Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/January#Standards_of_Identity, which concluded that Wiktionary, being a dictionary of words and not a record of the laws of every jurisdiction at every point in history, should not have things like this and this. (The recent discussion of how we don't even have senses like "a British colony" for Georgia, even though Georgia was a British colony at one point, is semi-related.) - -sche (discuss) 22:25, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

This is already being discussed on the definition discussion page. Many countries have a legal definition for culpable homicide. I believe the generic definition: "Criminal negligence causing the unlawful death of a human being." And a sample of legal definitions is the best way to go. The term "murder" is a misnomer for culpable homicide, it may or may not include the word "murder" it depends on the country you are in; for example "murder" is considered culpable homicide in Canada. Better to use the generic idiom unlawful death. thanks WritersCramp (talk) 22:34, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

"A sample of legal definitions". Who chooses the sample? Renard Migrant (talk) 13:05, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

WritersCramp, of course. Apparently no one is allowed to make changes of any significance to any of WritersCramp's entries without prior permission. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:16, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

I have deleted the senses in question per the previous BP discussion about mayonnaise, first-degree murder and plain murder, the last of which in particular would otherwise have had a few hundred definitions. (I listed and cited 10 in diff.) If someone wants to know the details of what Law X in State Y at Time Z considers "murder", "culpable homicide", etc, the place to look is the law itself; Wiktionary is not a compendium of laws but a dictionary. - -sche (discuss) 21:16, 10 December 2014 (UTC)