Talk:first grade

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first grade

twelfth grade · eleventh grade · tenth grade · ninth grade · eighth grade · seventh grade · sixth grade · fifth grade · fourth grade · third grade · second grade

The US/Canada difference is already noted in the example sentences of grade, which makes all these sum of parts. -- Liliana • 22:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Probably delete but put something in the usage notes at grade. I doubt we will keep this up to date with changing education systems, so link to the relevant topic on Wikipedia. Equinox ◑ 22:44, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Keep all. (and we need to get rid of the US and Canada tags, it's more wide-spread than that). The terminology used to describe class levels varies widely throughout the world and also changes over time. Several other terms get used as synonyms, such as scholarship, junior, senior, leaving, inter, prep, O-levels etc. On top of that, I use the example of Ireland, where "first year" is not the first year of a child's education. There are too many variations to rely on usage notes as we would run the risk of becoming encyclopaedic.--Dmol 23:24, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

first year might be idiomatic in Ireland, but we are not talking about that entry. first grade means first + grade anywhere on the world, from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe, and presumably on Moon and Mars too once these planets are colonized and an education system is created there. -- Liliana • 12:36, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

• Keep all: Can be defined as follows, "the year between X and X, when a child is generally Y-Z years of age". Not SoP, and should be kept even if it was Purplebackpack89 ^{(Notes Taken) (Locker)} 23:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

If they can all be defined mathematically then they apparently are sums of parts. If we're going to have these I suppose we should also have the British first year, second year, etc., but it seems silly to me. Equinox ◑ 23:45, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

• Keep all and recreate first year, second year, etc. (Those uses seem idiomatic.) —Quintucket 09:56, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Administrative note. I've now tagged the entries nominated above, linking to this section of RFD.​—msh210℠ (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Redirect to [[grade]] or delete. This is pure SOP, the first grade, the second grade, etc. Our entry for grade should have a usage note indicating that [whatever]th grade is often used without the and perhaps a usage note indicating what age [whstever]th grade refers to and synonyms therefor, but the entries are useless.​—msh210℠ (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes. One can also be in the top year or final year of school. Equinox ◑ 18:52, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Delete; grade already makes its usage clear. Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV 20:03, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Delete. --Hekaheka 00:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Delete, and make sure we have adequate usage notes (which apparently, we already do). Trying to define every individual institution's definition of grade is not the way to go here. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

The variations don't seem to be based on individual institutions, but rather on regions, and to a lesser extent, generational changes. These are definite specific meetings that vary locally and over time. We need the basic entries to hang the synonyms on. Nothing in the usage notes for grade covers this. Just to elaborate on the example I used earlier, the order from youngest to highest for Ireland is junior infants, senior infants, first class, second class etc - none of which can be deduced from its parts. (I think the UK is similar) Again, all should be kept if only for the variations that occur. --Dmol 12:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Either keep [[first grade]], etc., or greatly improve [[grade]] and redirect there, or perhaps create an appendix and redirect to it. But right now, the relevant sense at [[grade]] is not nearly sufficient to help someone figure out what "eighth grade" means. For example:

• it rather implies that fifth grade lasts for multiple years (which is not the case, no matter how much it may have felt that way);
• it doesn't make clear that e.g. "third grade" has approximately the same meaning nationwide (so that a phrase like "he has only a third-grade education" makes sense; as opposed to, say, each school having its own definitions of grade-levels);
• it doesn't indicate that kindergarten doesn't count;
• it refers to primary and secondary schools as "pre-collegiate education", as though people who don't plan to go to college go to schools that aren't divided into "grades".

(Actually, that stuff probably needs to be improved even if we don't redirect [[first grade]], etc., but redirecting them would make it all the more important.)

—Ruakh_TALK 17:47, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

This smells encyclopedic. Are we going to start include school year systems from all countries in the world? (Form 1, Form 2 - British system, Year 1, Year 2 - Australia/NZ system)?? Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 21:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

In which case, greatly improve grade. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:23, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Why are we complicating something that is really quite simple. It won't require "school year systems from all countries in the world", just the English speaking places. That alone cuts it down dramatically. All we need is to keep the above entries, and add the synonyms for each level. There won't be more than a dozen or so for each entry, and as I have discussed already, they won't all be as simple as one to twelve.--Dmol 11:40, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but that doesn't make it non-SoP. --Hekaheka 15:00, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

That may be the case, but there's a few things to consider about the SoP argument.

• Eg, the meaning of grade is not immediately and exclusively obvious.
• Not all places use grade, and the words year, form, class, etc are use.
• Not all places use 1 - 12 ordinal numbers, eg, some restart the numbers at high school, others start counting after two or three years of early education.--Dmol 08:44, 11 February 2012 (UTC).

Delete all entries of the form 'ordinal' + (deprecated template usage) grade, replace with redirects, and improve sense of grade. DCDuring TALK 16:41, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

The fact that grade is broadly interchangeable with year, form, class, etc. makes it seem all the more SoPpy to me. Equinox ◑ 15:54, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

But that's not even remotely true. If we're all allowed to make up facts, we'll be here all day! —Ruakh_TALK 16:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

They are interchangeable conceptually and cross-culturally. "What grade are you in?" = "What year are you in?" even if the specific values vary wildly by locality. Equinox ◑ 16:11, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Weak keep [[first grade]] etc or greatly improve [[grade]] etc, per Ruakh. These can be made SOP, but only if we expand [[grade]], [[year]] (to the extent that they become, arguably, borderline encyclopedic). "One of the sequential, numbered, one-year long levels of education through which pupils pass after kindergarten and before any further education, beginning (with first grade / grade one) around age 6 or 7"? - -sche (discuss) 01:49, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Vote count:

Delete: Liliana-60 (talk • contribs), Equinox (talk • contribs), msh210 (talk • contribs), Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV (talk • contribs), Hekaheka (talk • contribs), Mglovesfun (talk • contribs) and DCDuring (talk • contribs).

Keep: Dmol (talk • contribs), Purplebackpack89 (talk • contribs), Quintucket (talk • contribs), Ruakh (talk • contribs) and -sche (talk • contribs).

Kept as no consensus. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 15:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)