User talk:Saltmarsh/Archive 11

Archive for 2022

How we will see unregistered users

Hi!

You get this message because you are an admin on a Wikimedia wiki.

When someone edits a Wikimedia wiki without being logged in today, we show their IP address. As you may already know, we will not be able to do this in the future. This is a decision by the Wikimedia Foundation Legal department, because norms and regulations for privacy online have changed.

Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.

If you have not seen it before, you can read more on Meta. If you want to make sure you don’t miss technical changes on the Wikimedia wikis, you can subscribe to the weekly technical newsletter.

We have two suggested ways this identity could work. We would appreciate your feedback on which way you think would work best for you and your wiki, now and in the future. You can let us know on the talk page. You can write in your language. The suggestions were posted in October and we will decide after 17 January.

Thank you. /Johan (WMF)

18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Some deletes

Could I write in this section words which may not be functional in modern greek? You could delete, as you see fit. (note on katharevousa: in el.wikt we write it polytonic. If a word coincides with an ancient one, we take it as ancient). Thank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• αιτιάζομαι exists in anc.greek αἰτιάζομαι. Also there is a mediaeval active αἰτιάζω

@Sarri.greek Words under the Greek heading (as opposed to those under the Ancient Greek one) are any used since 1453 (I think that the cut off for Middle English is 1500.) I think it might be best to categorise them all as "obsolete" using {{tlb}} or {{lb}}. When we have quite a few it might be possible to think up additional divisions. I think the word should be entered in the script used when the term was in use (there might be more than one of these, "form of" entry can be used). Terms not used since 1453 belong under ancient greek. BUT please discuss if you would prefer some other treatment. If Bικι does something different - perhaps we should consider that. — Saltmarsh^🢃 15:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Actually, @Saltmarsh, you are right: I forgot completely that monotonic lemmata 1500-1700 in en.wikt are consistent with policy here. el.wikt extends Mediaeval period up to 1699 as most greek dictionaries do. Kriaras Med.dictionary used monotonic which is very confusing.

I think though, that such words should be separated. Like special Cateogries for dialects, etc. It is going to be very confusing and misleading, to see obsolete words in the Greek index. People might think they are usable. I cannot see a solution, except avoiding such words altogether.

As for the αιτιάζομαι word, Ι cannot find it in medieval either (in passive form). αἰτιάζω is an 8th century word. There is an εξαιτιάζομαι form existant. Never mind, forget the whole thing... ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:40, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Yes to dialects, and single source words like Kriaras'. Perhaps "mainstream" terms for Category:Greek obsolete terms, and additionally all "Katharevousa" and "Polytonic" to those cats. — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:26, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Double interwiki

Thank you Saltmarsh for this. And it is a pity, because it happens that a Cat of one wikt corresponds to 2 of another. E.g. The el.wikt main Cat.language corresponds to en.wikt.Category:Greek language but it looses Category:Greek lemmas. I shall try to make a redirect page with the second interwiki. Thanks! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:00, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

More adjectives

Always something new comes up, I'm afraid... A variation of {{el-decl-adj-ης-α-ικο}} (ζηλιάρης) is -ης -α -ι/-ικο (el.Cat for μικρούλης (el) (mikroúlis)). All the -ούλης are endearing diminutives and the extra neuter μικρούλι (el) (mikroúli) is very sweet. Again, dictionaries may describe such words as nouns. I have a list of such words to check one by one. The μικρούλης , τοσοδούλης (el) (tosodoúlis) (very tiny) are checked in 3 dictionaries. (feminine with capital Τοσοδούλα (el) (Tosodoúla) is Thumbelina.
Another category (only 2-3 members) is γουστόζος (el) (goustózos) & καπριτσιόζος (el) (kapritsiózos) with an extra -o neuter, straight from italian. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:41, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

The more the merrier (? «όσοι περισσότεροι τόσο το καλύτερο») @Sarri.greek, but συγγνώμη for the delay - visiting family and minor stomach upset - slowly getting back into harness. — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:34, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek μικρούλης (mikroúlis) on approval! — Saltmarsh^🢃 14:41, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Ο! how nice! μικρούλης, τοσοδούλης, καημενούλης (little poor old fellow, of καημένος) appear at DSMG, But I also have a list of neuters from other e.g. for colours like ασπρούλης (white άσπρος), μαυρούλης (black μαύρος), very often used for kittens, puppies and other animaal babies). Also some more 30 -ούλι words, but they are described as nouns. I intend to edit them as adjectives too (but that's not in any dictionary I have seen). ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:51, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I made changes to μικρούλης: changed the label to "nominalised" (more common than "substantivised") and it is apparently the term we use in Wikt. it produces a linked label and places the word in Category:Greek nominalized adjectives. — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:49, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Modern Greek FWOTDs

Do you know any words in modern Greek that would be proper candidates for FWOTD? ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 18:59, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Old conjugation templates

Hello boss! Hope you are feeling OK! @Saltmarsh, about the old conjugations and other unused tempaltes/pages. I was wondering if we could have a kind of a 'bin' where they could be moved, so that you may check and delete them or archive them? Do I have your 'OK' for the following:

• 1) to move the old teamplates (they have no links to verb pages anymore) from Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates
  to a Category:Greek templates (old) or something like that, under Category:Greek entry maintenance? This could be a general bin for please delete greek pages for you to check.
• 2) to remove the {{el-box-2}} which says please do not use... and similar notifications
• 3) to move the conjugations from Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates (new) to Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates

Thank you, and thank you for you very detailed Index of verbs! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 14:28, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes willingly, I'll finish off what I'm doing first and let you know. — Saltmarsh^🢃 04:59, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I am logging actions at User:Saltmarsh/Housekeeping. Those templates can be deleted as they can always be recovered if necessary. — Saltmarsh^🢃 08:17, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh Thank you!!! you moved them all (a lot of work!). And thanks for the Housekeeping!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 18:46, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek If there's anything else please let me know. — Saltmarsh^🢃 04:48, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

SOS attack from bots

@Saltmarsh!! All -form templates like {{el-suffix-form}} {{el-part-form}} {{el-noun-proper-form}} are changed with {head} by User:WingerBot by Benwing2
see here, 12 July. Thousands of changes. What is going to happen? Even when i change back to our usual, a bot comes again and attacks. Also, pedialite is changed to pedia.
Examples 12th Julty 2022:

diffhist  mb -άρας‎ 01:13  +7‎  ‎WingerBot talk contribs‎ ({{el-suffix-form}} -> {{head|el|suffix form}} (manually assisted)) 
diffhist  mb ενοποιημένα‎ 01:12  +11‎  ‎WingerBot talk contribs‎ (insert 1=el|participle form into {{el-part-form}}; rename {{el-part-form}} to {{head}})
diffhist  mb ηχούς‎ 01:04  +7‎  ‎WingerBot talk contribs‎ (rename 1= to g= in {{el-noun-proper-form}}; insert 1=el|proper noun form into {{el-noun-proper-form}}; rename {{el-noun-proper-form}} to {{head}})
diffhist  mb Οκτωβρίων‎ 01:04  +7‎  ‎WingerBot talk contribs‎ (rename 1= to g= in {{el-noun-proper-form}}; insert 1=el|proper noun form into {{el-noun-proper-form}}; rename {{el-noun-proper-form}} to {{head}})

Was there an announcement to all of you administrators stating that all xx-form templates would be terminated?
Is there a way for the future, to protect pages from bots? For instance I cannot even imagine what is going to happen with verbs. Verb forms cannot, cannot be replaced. Because of pres2= and other features.
2) PS Also, a note for inflectional sequences: e.g. Accusative and vocative singular of link. I see that all such teamplates in other languages start with lowercase and have no full stop. Example comparing: ψαλτήρια ancient-modern
‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 02:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek My apologies. If you want, I can undo the el-*-form changes, however it's standard to use {{head}} directly in these cases. I am trying to eliminate unnecessary templates. I discussed the {{pedialite}} change on WT:BP, there are far too many redundant Wikipedia link templates. Benwing2 (talk) 02:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Benwing2 (talk) 02:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

BTW I am not going to touch templates like verbs where there are (a) a lot of uses, (b) params that aren't easily replaceable to {{head}}. Benwing2 (talk) 02:18, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2, thank you for response and reassurance about modern greek verb forms. Unification is a good thing, i understand this. It makes it easier for non-greek-editors to create modern greek entries.

PS as a feedback for global default and unchanged named parameters (a list of them would be nice). e.g. at Category:Form-of_templates. I find it difficult to remember: some start with capital, some do not. I take it, that lowercase and nodot are default. If used at etymologies we need cap=1 for a normal text with sentences, but if used at definitions, we need nocap=1. Even if it is default, it should not throw an error (sometimes we add it provisionally, to protect from any future changes). Beginning definitions with capital e.g. Diminutive of gives the impression that 'Diminutive' is some kind of proper noun. A dictionary does not write the short definition phrases with words with capital, unless they are always written with uppercase first letter. Thank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 03:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I agree with you about the form-of templates. It is a mess, for sure. I would prefer that form-of templates use lowercase and no period by default, but it seems that some editors, esp. for English, prefer the opposite. Particularly the default final period annoys me. Awhile ago I proposed a compromise whereby all form-of templates would default to initial cap + period for English and initial lowercase + no period for all non-English languages, but too many people rejected this, so it stayed in the chaotic state it still is in. Benwing2 (talk) 03:53, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek BTW what do you mean by wanting a list of "global default and unchanged named parameters"? Can you give me an example? Benwing2 (talk) 03:54, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@Benwing2 _capitals: I see, what a pity. Personally, i keep adding nocap=1 and nodot=1 everywhere, to make sure that the output will not be automatically changed into capitals etc.
_list of global named params. For example g= for gender (sometimes we find it only as a numbered param) n= for number. c=acc means case=accusative and so on. Functions like nocat=1 nocap=1 cap=1 nodot=1 nodisplay noparenthesis.
t= for translations is sometimes found in quotation templates as trans= but not t= or vice versa. I keep forgetting when it is text= or quote= I am sure, with your wide experience you see the big picture that i cannot know. The principle would be: less mnemonics for editors. Decisions here at en.wikt affect all other wiktionaries that tend to copy. PS. Also, one day, you may contemplate a interwiktionary set of global module utitlies at Commons? ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 04:39, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Dear @Benwing2 — @Sarri.greek for information — surely you have been around here for long enough to realise that making changes like these might upset people. A little research would have told you who the few people editing Greek entries were - and they could have been consulted. We are a community, consultation maintains unity! I am rather pissed off about this and will say no more. — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:05, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

PS Some years ago Wiktionary:News for editors appeared at the top of the page when signing in and when a new item had been added. This was useful. I suspect few people see it now. Its a pity that this no longer happens. — Saltmarsh^🢃

My apologies again, I got overenthusiastic about this. I will consult you both before any further changes. Benwing2 (talk) 06:09, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for apologising @Benwing2 - I can appreciate (sort of) the frustration of bringing order to what some might view as chaos :) — Saltmarsh^🢃 09:58, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

For deletion

To delete...

• εμποράκε γαϊδαράκε (OK), κωλαράκε πουστάκε are unused vocatives. Thank you @Saltmarsh!
• -καθ-, one of my old mistakes. (καθ- is the correct, already exists), Thank you @Saltmarsh!
• εξερευναώ by anon, is a wrong stress, delete please.
  Update: I made a new Template for εξερευνώ/εξερευνάω, passive εξερευνώμαι (2ndTypeB): These are more formal verbs, and the -άω endings are less common (just a small reversal at the present active). Most dictionaries do not mention at all the -άω form. Othewise, they are like τιμάω/τιμώ-τιμώμαι. On the other hand, the near-synonym ερευνάω/ερευνώ.pass.ερευνώμαι is a more common verb, with the expected active endings. Thank you @Saltmarsh ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 04:12, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek better here:) — before I delete the vocatives do we need a new template for vocativeless masculine paroxytone nouns in -ος ? — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:10, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, I do not know any vocativeless declensions. It is Holton that omits the formal vocatives. Elsewhere, there are always vocatives at all nouns and adjectives (grammatically they exist, although, not used for lots of words e.g. o! excellent medicine! how much I love you!... that kind of silly vocative. Thank you!!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 06:14, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Sorry I misunderstood "unused vocatives" above. Job done? — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:22, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, yes, please delete κωλαράκε πουστάκε / correctare κωλαράκο, πουστάκο Thanks. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 06:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Saltmarsh, Category:Greek 2nd conjugation groups not needed: all a...z groups & cats are together at Category:Greek 2nd conjugation verbs by inflection type otherwise, it was very difficult to find them.

• also, I moved Category:Greek verb conjugation group of 2nd Conjugation combinations to Category:Greek 2nd conjugation combinations. If you like, you may delete the old Cat. Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 06:30, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I moved it here (Housekeeping was for me to make lists of words to be edited. Anyway job done. And thank you for doing all this! — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:39, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Please delete

• mistake Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'ερευνώ', @Saltmarsh, Correct is Category:Greek verbs conjugating like 'ερευνάω-ερευνώ' ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 06:38, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek n.b. This stuff should really be here on my Talk page. — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:54, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

απότακτος

An anon added Ancient Greek here and, maybe due to a copy-paste error, had blatantly wrong pronunciation. I used my limited understanding of the template to correct it by giving the page name as a parameter to the template but I noticed there was a warning/piece of advice showing in the preview to clarify the pronunciation so I decided to ask if you could verify it. Acolyte of Ice (talk) 12:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

@Acolyte of Ice I think we should ask @Sarri.greek - my Greek pronunciation is not reliable and therefor I have seldom used the template. — Saltmarsh^🢃 05:33, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

@Acolyte of Ice, notifying @Saltmarsh. Good morning everyone! Acolyte, I do not understand your question probably because my English is not very good.

Your edit here was needless. The Template {{grc-IPA}} gives the pronunciation for Ancient Greek automatically. The administrators of Ancient Greek will add the prosody marks if needed. I guess, that would be {{grc-IPA|ἀ˘πότᾰκτος}} I have no idea how to add such diacritics (also for the headword) -I just copypaste from here and there-, especially when the dictionary has no comments on prosody. This is a handy link for grc

Ancient Greek is spellt with little diacritics. e.g. ἀπότακτος. Modern Greek is now written without the diacritics απότακτος. My knowledge of Ancient Greek is school-level, so, i refrain from editing. When I do, I spend some time reading each Template instructions.

The anonynous IP, created too many mistakes, and unfortunately was not blocked earlier. We had to check too many pages... Thank you. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 06:10, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Category moves

Hello dear Salt! As i add pronunciations (now at Χ words), i see lots of words 'with no plurals' (Babiniotis has this habit of no plural all the time, while DSMG includes them, and indeed they are very normal even if they are not so common -usually for semantic reasons-. Could I ask if we could move to a more characteristic 'catchword' (one that already exists in the Category), if of course you agree?

• Category:Greek nouns declining like 'χαβιάρι' to Category:Greek nouns declining like 'Ανάπλι' The plural χαβιάρια is quite normal in phrases like: I like only these 3 brands of χαβιάρια, but not the other ones... The placename Ανάπλι (hometown of my paternal grandmother!) is perfect. I have never heard a plural for it...

Thank you!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 12:47, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Uncountable, etc

@Sarri.greek Perhaps we should revisit "Uncountable nouns" !!

• There is a difference between "without plural" and "uncountable". I don't know what Babiniotis meant by χωρ.πληθ., I have looked through the various "preambles/forewords/prefaces" in my 2008 3rd edition but, handicapped by my minimal Greek, I could spot nothing which might help. BUT he obviously meant something by it and I suspect that it sounds more absolute than it should.
• Uncountable form examples: "Smallpox was common in Tudor times" and "The Sun is 73.5% hydrogen."
• Countable form examples: "There were three new smallpoxes last week" and "The water molecule has two hydrogens.
• I suspect that similar usage occurs in Greek, taking ευλογιά (evlogiá) and υδρογόνο (ydrogóno) — in both cases the singular forms greatly outnumber the plurals.
• I think that it was wrong to exclude the plural forms from many inflection tables. But (and a big but) I think that (echoing the formula used with English words, they should be labelled something like: usually uncountable, plural smallpoxes and countable and uncountable, plural hydrogens

— Saltmarsh^🢃 14:40, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Ο! @Saltmarsh, so sorry; I apologise, I have just seen this: I do not get any pings lately.

Yes, you are right. Plurals may be formed most of the time. 'Uncountable' for greek grammars is just a comment, it does not imply necessarily that plural does not exist. Dictionaries do not add any comment on countability (which is rather obvious from the sense).

Bab, tends to add no plural again and again (I don't know why), whenever the plural is 'no-sense or nonsense' and practically to all abstract nouns.

Plurals (of proper nouns too) that have uncommon senses could be honorific, emphatic, collective etc. For proper nouns, honorific, literary. In el.wikt. we add a note=Usually in the singular. and if possible, we add quotations for the uncommon inflectional forms (rare plurals, rare genitives).

• For more ambiguous ones we make a distinction with parameters: n(umber)=sg (Cat.Greek nouns Without plural. These are the true and clear pluralia tantum) and n2=sg (Cat.Greek nouns in the singular. Implying that a plural exists, with different function). I have learnt this distinction from you from your Cateogries of verb.voices! Some 'catchwords' like αγγλοκρατία (a normal abstract noun) perhaps could be changed.
• In general, I follow grammar notes (refs at el.Appendix, mainly the 1941 Triantafyllidis Grammar), +{{R:DSMG}} (where the χωρίς πληθυντικό, no plural or only in the plural is clearly stated and not overused without reason.

It is difficult to choose a characteristic word for categories without sg or without pl. At el.wikt we say: Category:Greek nouns declining like 'ιστορία' without plural. So, no problem, we do not need a catchword.

As i add pronunciations, I add a note or the plurals whenever i find they are missing. I am slow, but I promise you, I will check gradually all words. (Have done Ψ and Ω). Two points:

_1) Many nouns do not have a genitive (sg or pl). Like καφεδάκι (kafedáki), but not for both numbers, or just for a special word here and there. Perhaps a parameter giving a dash for genitives would help... Also, optionally, parenthesis e.g. at χαζοκούτι, DSMG does not say 'without genitives', but i know that such colloquial compounds have very rare genitives. I would happier if i put them in parenthesis, meaning: rare; it is a possible form, but nobody says it, unless absolutely necessary.

_2) A question. Frequently we need (like the above example χαζοκούτι) note=δύσχρηστος (dýschristos), δύσχρ., δύσχρηστη genitive ... It literally means: "difficult to use" (because it is awkward, or it does not sound right, etc.) I tried to find a translation. dysfunctional = δυσλειτουργικός (dysleitourgikós) (δυσ- + λειτουργικός (leitourgikós, “functional”). But this is not exact. I found the word unwieldy (difficult to handle because of complexity) Would an anglophone use this word to describe a difficult word? Can I use it at notes?

Thank you, thank you!! PS Your work at Appendix:Greek verbs is monumental. I keep reading, because i learn a lot (many of the rare verbs, I do not know!!) Thanks! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 14:55, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I'm sorry - this should mre correctly been on your page. Rather a lot to rread here, so I'll pay attention later. — Saltmarsh^🢃 17:45, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I was looking at the headword line and how Greek nouns are categorised - rather than the genitive forms or declension tables. It would be most logical, if possible to use the same terminology as is used for English nouns, wherever this is possible:

		singular	plural	singular	plural
1	Countable	αδελφός	αδελφοί	cat	cats	List
2	Uncountable — plurals are "nonstandard" or "ungrammatical"			sheep	sheeps	List
3	usually uncountable — plurals are uncommon	υδρογόνο	υδρογόνα	incest	incests
4	countable & uncountable			beer	beers
5	singular only — singulare tantum			information	—	List
6	plural only — pluralia tantum	—	φτωχοί	—	trousers	List

The boundary between the "usually uncountable" and the "countable & uncountable" is arbitrary and will vary with opinion. I have left most of the Greek examples blank, you can no doubt think of examples. — Saltmarsh^🢃 05:03, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

!! ! great work @Saltmarsh. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ I 05:06, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

αναφορα.

Hi @Saltmarsh, many wishes for the holidays ! I cannot really understand, do we consider αναφορα. to be a word? Am I missing something here? FocalPoint (talk) 19:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

@FocalPoint thank you for pointing this out. At this distance I cannot remember how it crept in (it hardly seems an abbreviation!). Gone. And thanks for your good wishes — have a good 2023 — Saltmarsh^🢃 06:45, 30 December 2022 (UTC)