Talk:мазган

@Wikitiki89. Why did you revert my edit? The sense is extremely rare and is hardly used outside of Israel or overseas Jewish communities, I have never heard before it was created. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Words in the category Category:Scottish English are not used outside of Scotland. That doesn't mean they are "rare", it just means they are only used in Scotland. Likewise, "мазган" is used in Israel by nearly all Russian speakers (I've heard that as much as 20% of the population of Israel speaks Russian every day). I think it is sufficient to just have a context label that says "Israel". (And to clarify, it is only used in Israel, not in overseas Jewish communities.) --WikiTiki89 20:29, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Context is not sufficient and we don't have Category:Israeli Russian category. Words like "горелка", "москаль" can have "Ukraine" label but they are not rare and are well known in Russia proper, whereas "мазган" is only known in Israel, if you say that overseas Jewish communities don't use it. Without the label "rare" users might assume that it's okey to use the word in a conversation and be understood. I insist that my edit was correct. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:37, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I see. We do have this category now. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:39, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I recently created it. So do you think that all these words that are only used and known in Scotland should also be labelled "rare" and given usage notes? --WikiTiki89 20:41, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I haven't noticed that you have created the category first. Yes, the category itself or template for Scottish English could get some kind of a message. Scottish English is actually known like American, Australian, etc. English but I don't think people are aware of any varieties of Russian, which is known to be a rather homogenous language. So, Israeli Russian is quite a new concept for most users and should be labelled or explained somewhere. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:51, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

People are aware that Scottish English exists, but they are not usually aware of all the words used in it. I used Scottish as an example because it is the most well-known dialect that has such a large number of words that are completely unheard of elsewhere. So I see what you mean that people are more used to the idea that English is not the same everywhere, than they are for Russian. I think we need some more opinions on this issue. --WikiTiki89 21:07, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

We will need more opinions if we don't come to an agreement. People might also question if we need American (вэлфэа?), German Russian (азюль), etc. I personally don't mind the new category but the word struck me as unknown, even if it's common with Israeli Russian speakers. Words like "кибуц", "алия" are also specific to Israeli Russian but they are not rare and are well-known in Russia. I'm being subjective, I myself have created оззи, which is used by Russians in Australia but I assume that Russians are more familiar with the word "Aussie" than with "מזגן". --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:49, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Well we can't come to an agreement if I can't come to an agreement with myself, so that's why I want more opinions. As for "кибуц" and "алия", I would not say they are specific to Israeli Russian, because they are used by Russians in Russia as well as in the rest of the world (for example, you can't say that Aussie is specific to Australian English even if it originated there and refers to something there, it is still used as a word worldwide). --WikiTiki89 21:58, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I guess there are three categories of regional words:

1. Words that are only used and only known within their region.
2. Words that are only used within their region, but are known and recognized outside of it.
3. Words that originated in or refer to a region, but that are used and known outside of it.

And I would only consider the first two to be "regional". --WikiTiki89 22:01, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to open a discussion somewhere else but "regional" and "rare" tags are not contradicting each other, e.g. "бушма" is both regional and rare, "буряк" is regional but not rare. If you re-add "rare" context I would be satisfied with this entry, as I said, I don't have problem with Category:Israeli Russian category. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:50, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I thinking that adding "rare" would sound like it is rare even in Israel. --WikiTiki89 23:01, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I thought about it too but otherwise you would need to write usage notes. Israeli Russian community is relatively small compared to the total number of Russians, the term is rare in the Russian language (I have also found five occurrences in three books in the Corpus of the Russian language) so having a combination of the tag, the category and the citations (thanks for that) is not such a bad solution. BTW, do you mind if I add stresses? I do add stresses to my citations and usage examples. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:12, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

I think it is inherently wrong to add anything to a quotation, otherwise I would have done so myself. And by the way, is this corpus online? And regarding the "rare" tag, I'll start a discussion at the WT:BP. --WikiTiki89 23:24, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I know your position on citations, that's why I asked. I might raise a new discussion about adding stresses/accents to foreign language citations. Russian National Corpus --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:31, 16 January 2014 (UTC)