Talk:frain

RFV discussion: July 2015–February 2016

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frain

On Google Books I can only find this as a scanno of "frame". The English Dialect Dictionary only knows this as a word for "refrain" (with a single citation). - -sche (discuss) 01:19, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Added another from a translation of the Gospel of St Matthew, making 2. Added alternative forms. Leasnam (talk) 16:04, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Added numero 3 citation from a Modern English translation of Canterbury Leasnam (talk) 16:04, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

And a fourth Leasnam (talk) 16:27, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Except the Gospel of Matthew one (which is a very literal translation of a Saxon text for academic use), they all seem to be Middle English quotes. The Chaucer quote doesn't seem to be modernized, just different - the standard version, from Caxton, reads:

She freined, and she prayed piteously To every Jew that dwelled in that place, To tell her, if her childe went thereby;

while the citation reads:

She fraineth and she prayeth pitously To every Jew that dwelt in thilke place To tell her if her child went ought forby.

What kind of modernization adds words like "thilke" and "ought forby"?!

The quote attributed to "Thomas Humphry Ward" is actually from the 14th century poem Piers Plowman and the one attributed to Walter Scott is actually from an anonymous author writing from about the 13th century prophet Thomas the Rhymer. The date of that one is unclear, but it's believed to date from the fifteenth century (see footnote "r" here - the poem itself is quoted on page 235) and the author seems to be trying to imitate an even older style. I'm seeing very little evidence that this survived into even the Early Modern English era. Smurrayinchester (talk) 08:32, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

@Smurrayinchester, No, that is not Middle English either, despite the use of thilke and ought forby, which are apparently left in for deliberate archaic effect. The Middle English original is

She frayneth and she prayeth pitously to euery Iew that dwelte in thilke place to telle hire if hir child wente oght forby.

Maybe "modernisation" is the wrong term, as it is not modern by today's standards, but I can see that this is an updated normalisation of the original, and qualifies under reasons for Talk:undeadliness? --Same for the other cite. The point of the matter is that all 3 citations added were written in (Modern) English. Leasnam (talk) 16:16, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

(Sorry, my mistake. I took the quote from Wikisource, which claims "Chaucer's Canterbury Tales presented in the original Middle English version", but clearly isn't.) Smurrayinchester (talk) 10:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Comparing the 'modern' citation of Chaucer to the original, it doesn't look like much updating has gone on. The prophecies of Thomas the Rhymer, on the other hand, does seem like a modern edition: looking over the whole work as quoted in The History of Scotish Poetry (which seems identical to the book you link to, but Google will only let me see one page of the book you link to; Google is weird) the language is thoroughly modern, with only a few unfamiliar words; I'd never guess it was translating/rendering an older work if the surrounding book didn't say so. (Btw, that edition has "Whence that" where we have "Where that".) It would seem as passable as the citations discussed on Talk:undeadliness.

However, Talk:undeadliness consists of me suggesting "translations" of Middle English to modern English be allowed, crickets, and an Anglish-o-phile who has since left the project agreeing with me. I've mentioned the "test" in a dozen RFVs since then, but in most cases, there've been fewer than 3 citations total and the terms have failed without it being necessary to judge whether citations passed the test or whether the test was valid. I welcome discussion of whether or not allowing modern English rewrites of Middle English works is a good idea: I admit there are grey areas, and not only with Middle English; for example, which of the many possible levels of adaptation of a Scots song in the direction of English would be the point at which it stopped being ==Scots== and started being ==English== (Scotland)?

- -sche (discuss) 17:32, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Translations are often a sore point with the way they adopt translingual vocabulary, and that goes double for close languages where a spelling adjustment and some vocabulary notes can bring the work within range of the dedicated reader. I don't know; I guess in general works that puts themselves forward as Modern English should be treated as Modern English instead of Middle English.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:37, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Given how much trouble we're having citing the lemma form (and how frequently it has been determined that the many alt forms which get copied from other dictionaries are not attested; cf bysen above), I feel the alleged alternative forms need to be cited as well, or removed. - -sche (discuss) 02:07, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

1522 Skelton Why nat to Court 397 Of you I wolde frayne Why come ye nat to court.

1555 Abp. Parker Ps. xxviii. 65 Theyr myndes disdayne Gods actes to frain[e].

1575–6 Durham Depos. (Surtees) 270 The said Umphra frayned the said Thomas.

1592 Warner Alb. Eng. vii. xxxvii. (1612) 181, I, musing, frain'd her meaning.

1703 Thoresby Let. to Ray (E.D.S.) Frayn, to ask. Lanc. [a mention]

1803 W. S. Rose Amadis 160 Frayn'd by the knight, they told, a beautious maid..Was borne a prisoner. Leasnam (talk) 03:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Cited Leasnam (talk) 03:35, 24 December 2015 (UTC)

Although several of those citations are of frayn(e), there exist editions of most of them which use frain, so the verb passes. What about the noun meaning "ash tree"? EDD (which sometimes has citations) doesn't have it, and Century''s only citation is of the Middle English Lay le Freine (where it is a proper noun, a person's name). - -sche (discuss) 06:48, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

The verb passes RFV as noted above; the "ash tree" sense fails. - -sche (discuss) 18:26, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

ash-tree sense

From Middle English frayne (“ash-tree”), from Old French fraisne, fresne (“ash-tree”), from Latin fraxinus (“ash-tree”).

1. The ash, the ash-tree.