Talk:kornout

Definitions

@Lambiam: Can you please clarify on which basis you made recent edits, which included adding two definitions and removing one? The edits do not match my intuition as a native speaker, and do not match SSJC, a dictionary now linked from the entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:50, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

If the source is W:cs:Kornout, let me point out that it seems to describe German realities, picking the Czech word kornout to describe them. Admittedly, the thing on the picture is a kornout, that is, a paper cone, and would be a kornout regardless of its contents or occasion of use. The only reference given in the Wikipedia article is http://www.jena.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=151283&_nav_id1=77034&_lang=de, a red flag. I don't remember having received such a cone when I was a kid, but that is a long time ago. Sourcing from Wikipedias without checking in other sources is risky, especially sourcing overspecific definitions. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:57, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I went ahead and removed the senses; I would suggest that you only add them if you can show that the specificity involved is justified and traceable either to quotations of use or at least reliable sources, which Wikipedia isn't. Wikipedia is great as a sentence-indexed catalog of sources, but the trick is to use it as such, checking the sources linked. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:59, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

For the first-day-of-school thing I may have relied on the Czech Wikipedia, which I shouldn’t have done. For the other sense, I based this on the results of a Google inage search, which I think shows convincingly that a paper or cellophane cone filled with snacks is a major use of the term.  --Lambiam 09:06, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I don't think the image search shows that a cone filled with items is a major use as per the following. Let's take the very 2nd image which says "kornout MAXI s potiskem 300 x 300 mm" and the web site is "dobreobaly.cz" but shows a paper cone filled with popcorn; obviously, dobré obaly (good packaging items) sells unfilled cones and the title "kornout MAXI s potiskem 300 x 300 mm" reinforces that notion. Image search is a good thing, but requires some "interpretation". --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

I spoke too soon; haste makes waste. Some of the images found do suggest that a cone including the items would be called kornout as well, e.g. "Kornout ŽANET 600g" at dobre-orisky.cz (good nuts), or "Prima Pegas kornout vanilkový". Therefore, a sense to the effect of "cone filled with stuff or items" could be added, unless it would be argued that it is trivial metonymy. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:12, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Whether the metonymy is trivial is a very subjective call, but I can point to the fact that the analogous image search for “paper cone” is much more restrained in showing filled cones (and then mostly filled with French fries, not candies).  --Lambiam 17:58, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

RFV discussion: December 2018–May 2019

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kornout

Definition ice cream cone. That's not what w:cs:kornout says, so let's get a few citations for this and maybe some clarity whether this is the most natural Czech translation or a rare word.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:32, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

A thousand pictures is worth a word.  --Lambiam 08:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

When I follow that link, I see pictures of a variety of conical items. Waffle cones, sure, and paper cones with popcorn, what looks like some knitted things (Krepový kornout?), conical plastic bags with candy, some dolls on top of inverted cones, a conical garden grill, porcelain cones, metal cones.__Gamren (talk) 20:47, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do about quotations, but the cone for ice cream without ice cream is indeed kornout, and w:cs:kornout is dubious: it only contains a link to a German web site as a source. The en wikt kornout entry was created by User:Duncan MacCall, a Czech native speaker. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:03, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Quotes super easy to find: google books:kornout zmrzlina:

• "Shlédnu a vidím, že jsem rozdrtil kornout a zmrzlina mi z něj stéká na ruku, přesně jak Vaughn řekla"
• "Milliin kornout se rozpustil a špičkou jí začala kapat zmrzlina na zbrusu nový triko"
• "Jako například zmrzlinu v kornoutu, který končí dole do špičky, takže ho nemůžete nikam položit"
• "jindy vrchovatý kornout zmrzliny jako dárek od prodavačky"
• "stále ještě v ruce držel kornout se zmrzlinou"
• "Můj skutečný malý anděl stál přede dveřmi a v ruce držel kornout zmrzliny"
• "Z jednoho kornoutu ulizoval, z druhého mu ukapávala zmrzlina až na loket"

Cited. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:08, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

• RFV passed. @Dan Polansky, best practice would be for you to actually add the sufficient numbers of quotes to the entry. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:33, 7 May 2019 (UTC)