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Tagged RFVs


March 2017Edit


As mentioned in the Tea room, this seems to be a dead end: it's said to be an adjective, and to be an alternative form of polus. The only problem is that there's no adjective sense at polus, nor can I find a likely candidate in Lewis & Short at Perseus. There is pollulus, but that's an alternative form of polulus, a diminutive of polus. We thus have an entry and a complete set of inflected forms, but no definition and no examples of usage. Is this a complete figment of User:SemperBlotto's imagination, or is there a real word out there somewhere?

By the way, I tried searching for this, but there are scannos that mistake just about any letter with a vertical stroke for one or more ls. If it helps any, SB was apparently working on taxonomic names from User:Pengo/Latin/Most wanted at the time he created this. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:01, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

  • Probably a cockup. If nobody can dind anything, I'll delete it all. SemperBlotto (talk) 18:19, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
It is said that DMBLS, "The Dictionary of Medieval Latin from British Sources", contains "pollus v. 1 pola, 3 polus, 3 pullus". So it might be a British Mediaeval Latin spelling. - 21:02, 17 March 2017 (UTC)
An Eighth-Century Latin–Anglo-Saxon Glossary has "polla, fusca" (possibly a mentioning) where "polla" could be ML for pulla (from pullus).
Thus pollus could be an alt form of pullus instead of polus. Alternatively the POS of pollus could be wrong and then it could be an alt form of a noun. - 08:46, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

and 𫢙Edit

RFV for Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:27, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

For 働, see the talk page.
For 𫢙, I wonder if the evidence for inclusion in Unicode can be located... —suzukaze (tc) 00:41, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Unicode got 𫢙 from 中國大百科全書, according to its G source (GBK-1000.40). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:43, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I know about that part; I meant specifically within the patchwork PDFs they assemble and dump into —suzukaze (tc) 00:46, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I see. That will take some fishing. As for 働, why don't we just have a {{zh-see}}? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:49, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I've traced 𫢙 back to the extension D submission by the PRC (IRGN1262), which lists it under characters used in personal names. I don't see evidence from the original source, though. (It might be there, but I can't find it at the moment.) — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Is it a good idea to verify ALL kokuji and Japanese shinjitai, which are different from Chinese simp. forms for their existence in Chinese and Korean? Unihan just does a misservice by providing reading for characters that are not used in these languages, IMO.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:15, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Assuming 勞働 exists, then it seems to me that should be sufficient for keeping in some form – either an "only in" entry the way it is now, or a {{zh-see}} the way Justinrleung suggests. —Granger (talk · contribs) 02:56, 30 November 2018 (UTC)


I'm pretty sure it's only used as a component of a character. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:04, 26 March 2017 (UTC)

It is a variant of 𬊇 (U+2C287, ⿱炏乂): [1]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:59, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: any evidence though? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:53, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
I mean 𤇾 was from 𬊇. 𤇾 is used only as a component, as you say. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:34, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: Then I think we should just have something like {{n-g|Only used as a character component.}}. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:25, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Three sites on which the component 𤇾 appears: (a page exclusively devoted to 𤇾; definition: brilliant)𤇾 (another page exclusively devoted to 𤇾; definition: brilliant)鎣 (which includes the sentence: 「鎣」從「金」,「𤇾」聲,表示一種長頸瓶。)

I am adamantly in support of retaining this page on wiktionary. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:29, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: The definition "brilliant" is ultimately from the Unihan database, which is known to be unreliable for definitions. I think it can only merit inclusion as a character component. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:03, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Yeah, I agree. I'm guessing 'brilliant' was an definition derived from 荧. My only question is- what is the ultimate source for the yìng (fourth tone) reading? Thanks for your numerous corrections to pages I have edited. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 08:07, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: The pronunciation also comes from the Unihan Database, but I'm not sure where they got it. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 14:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung:𤇾 says "康熙字典: 頁671第08" but I couldn't find anything on that page in Kangxi- maybe I don't understand the system there-- My real question is, if the Unihan people were really just making stuff up, why would they make this ying4 instead of ying2? ( has ying4 too) There's got to be something behind "ying4"- maybe a typo? Seems strange that so many characters in this phonetic series would be pronounced ying1 or ying2 and then suddenly the phonetic component is pronounced ying4. If I were just making up pronunciations, I would say that 𤇾 should be pronounced ying2. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 14:36, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: Again, the Kangxi page number is from the Unihan database (0671.081). The 1 at the end indicates that it does not actually exist in the Kangxi Dictionary, but page 671, character 8 would be its hypothetical position in the dictionary if it were to be included in the Kangxi Dictionary. I don't think the people who made the database are making stuff up, but they may be using erroneous sources. I have no idea where yìng came from. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:05, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Is there a way to contact the people who complied the Unihan database and ask about the origin of the definition and pronunciation for 𤇾? Might be fun. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 17:14, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

April 2017Edit

Compounds with quisEdit


For the feminine quaequam and the plural.
Dictionaries and also some grammars are a bit vague about the declension and usage of compounds with qui and quis.

  • Some dictionaries mention quaequam, but as far as I saw without cite, and as far as I saw dictionaries don't mention a plural. However, dictionaries mention that quisquam is used for the feminine (in "Plaut." and "Ter."), and BTW they mention that quīvīs is also an ablative of quīvīs (in "Ter.").
    One dictionary had an example with "quaequam lab. qualitas, Cael. Aur." under the word labilis. However, in Caelius Aurelianus' text it is "aut cujusquam labilis qualitatis" (or "aut cuiusquam labilis qualitatis") and the dictionary should have changed the case from genitive to nominative (which BTW is done not rarely).
    Maybe note that the conjunction quamquam which looks like a feminine accusative is an own word.
    Maybe also note that Wiktionary's table has feminine quaequam with ablative quōquam and not *quāquam. Maybe also compare with Wiktionary's quispiam where the adjectival feminine is quaepiam with ablative quāpiam while the substantival feminine is quispiam with ablative quōpiam.
  • Allen & Greenough state this: "The indefinite pronouns quispiam, some, any, and quisquam, any at all, are used both as substantives and as adjectives. [...] Quisquam is both masculine and feminine; the neuter is quidquam (quicquam), substantive only; there is no plural."
  • Friedrich Neue, Formenlehre der Lateinischen Sprache, 2nd part, 2nd edition, Berlin, 1875, p. 241-246: "Das Neutrum von quicumque ist überall quodcumque, welches gleich dem einfachen Pronomen relat. quod auch substantivisch gebraucht wird. Zu quisquam und quisquis ist nur das Neutr. quicquam oder quidquam und quicquid oder quidquid nachzuweisen, wiewohl Diom. 1 S. 321 ein quodquam und Mar. Victor. 1 S. 2460 neben quicquam und quicquid ein quocquod aufführt. [...] Quicquam facinus hat Plaut. Men. 3, 1, 2 und Merc. 1, 2, 43; suum quidquid genus talearum Cato R. R. 48, 1, quidquid solamen humandi est Verg. Aen. 10, 493, und quidquid est nomen Plaut. bei Serv. [...] Die übrigen oben angeführten Composita haben doppelte Form des Neutrum, mit quid substantivisch, mit quod adjectivisch. [....] Quivis und quisquam gestatten den Ablat. Sing. quivis und quiquam, vergl. über den Ablat. qui und aliqui unter 36 und 41. [...] Auch quisquam dient als Femin. [...] Nicht allein auf weibliche Personen wird quisquam angewandt, sondern auch [...]. Quisquam hat keinen Plur. [...] Quisquam steht gern substantivisch. Doch auch si cuiquam generi hominum und si cuiquam ordini Cic. Verr. Acc. 2, 6, 17, cuiquam legationi Fam. 3, 10, 6 [...] cuiusquam rei Quintil. 10, 2, 6, a quoquam incepto Suet. Cäs. 59." — i.e.: [shortend and paraphrased: quodcumque is also used substantivally.] For quisquam and quisquis only the neuter quicquam or quidquam and quicquid or quidquid are attestable, although Diom. has a quodquam and Marc. Victor. besdes quicquam and quicquid a quocquod. [...] [cites, see the quote]. [...] The other above mentioned compounds have a double form for the neuter, with quid substantivally, with quod adjectivally. [....] Quivis and quisquam can have the ablative singular quivis and quiquam, compare about the ablative qui and aliqui under 36 and 41. [cites.] [...] Quisquam serves as feminine too. [Mentioning that old grammarians declined this word through all genders and numers.] [Cites.] Quisquam is not only used for female persons, but also [cites which show quisquam used with or in reference of things]. [...] Quisquam has no plural. [...] [Mentioning of an old incorrect reading with *quibusquam which is quibusdam.] Quisquam is often used substantivally. But also [cites with adjectival use, for some cites see the quote].
    Mentionings in grammars don't attest words. The mentionings can be mentioned, but in usage notes and not in the declension table. An old misreading maybe could be mentioned too, but shouldn't attest anything and should belong into a usage note and not the declension table.
  • The masculine and feminine is used both substantivally and adjectivally.
    Plautus uses quisquam adjectivally for the feminine: "quod neque ego habeo neque quisquam alia mulier, ut perhibent viri" (Plaut. Cist.; LCL: "A mind is something I haven't got, or any other women, either, according to the men").
    The neuter dative, any maybe also the genitive or ablative, is used adjectivally too, compare with the examples in F. Neue: "Quisquam steht gern substantivisch [= Quisquam is often used substantivally]. Doch auch [= But also] si cuiquam [dat.] generi [dat. of the neuter genus] hominum [gen. pl. of homo] und [= and] si cuiquam [dat.] ordini [dat. of the masculine ordo] Cic. Verr. Acc. 2, 6, 17, cuiquam [dat.] legationi [dat. of the feminine legatio] Fam. 3, 10, 6 [...] cuiusquam [gen.] rei [gen. of the feminine res] Quintil. 10, 2, 6, a quoquam [abl.] incepto [abl. of the neuter inceptum(?)] Suet. Cäs. 59.". Even an adjectivally used quidquam or quicquam seems to be attested although Allen & Greenough do not mention it and the adjectivally used cuiquam could also belong to an unattested (or New Latin) *quodquam. Besides F. Neue's examples an older grammar stated that Plautus used quicquam adjectivally (in "numquam/Numquam quicquam facinus feci peius/pejus neque scelestius" in Menaechmi III. LCL has "Plus triginta annis natus sum, quom interea loci, | numquam quicquam facinus feci peius neque scelestius, | quam hodie, quom in contionem mediam me immersi miser." with "More than thirty years I've lived, and never in all that time have I done a worse or more accursed deed than to-day when I immersed myself, poor fool, in the middle of that public meeting." Well, in this English translation a word like any does not appear, but that doesn't say anything about the Latin text.
  • The ablative quīquam seems to be used substantivally in Plautus: "ne a quoquam acciperes alio mercedem annuam, nisi ab sese, nec cum quiquam limares caput" (Plaut. Bacch. at Non.; LCL: "Not to let you take a yearly fee from anyone else but him, or rub heads with anyone"). F. Neue also has examples with adjectival use. So it should be a form of both the substantival and the adjectival pronoun. The ablative quīvīs however could, by attestion, be restricted to the adjectival pronoun.
  • Doubtful forms, below in the summary table mentioned in []:
    • Dictionaries mention a masculine nominative quiquam.
      "old form QVIQVAM, S. C. Bacch." or "QVIQVAM, S. C. de Bacch." This should be senatus consultum de Bacchanalibus. once has "QVI[S]QVAM", and w:en:Senatus consultum de Bacchanalibus has "QVISQVAM" (under "Text") or "qui[s]quam" (under "Transliteration into classical Latin"). As the text often has "QVISQVAM" or "quisquam", the single "QVI[S]QVAM" or "qui[s]quam" might look like an error.
      "quīquam = quisquam, Verg. georg. 4, 447.". and the text at have "Scis, Proteu, scis ipse; neque est te fallere quicquam sed tu desine velle." there; has "scis, Proteu, scis ipse, neque est te fallere quicquam:".
      So this form seems to be doubtful. With *quaequam the form *quiquam would make some sense, but as *quaequam seems to be less correct, *quiquam too seems to be less correct.
    • Older grammars have quenquam besides quemquam, and the form with n can also be found in New Latin texts and older editions of ancient authors. Maybe it's a ML or NL mistake like isthic for istic? For the conjunction quamquam dictionaries mention the form quanquam too and refer to the conjunction quamquam, where sometimes the form with n is mentioned too and sometimes not.
    • The adjectival neuter nominative quodquam/quocquam is mentioned in some older grammars.
    • The nominative *quaequam is mentioned in dictionaries and older grammars. Older grammars also mention the ablative *quāquam, and sometimes but sometimes not the accusative *quamquam (there is a conjunction of the same form: quamquam) or *quanquam (which might also be an alternative form for the conjunction).
      F. Neue has an example with feminine quemquam, but the noun was corrected, so maybe one could argue that quemquam has to be corrected too. One grammar gave the accusative quamquam with reference "Plaut. Mil. IV, 2, 68", which is also F. Neue's example, and he writes: "und quemquam porcellam Mil. 4, 2, 68 (im vet., decurt. und Vat. des Plaut. proculem, in den Hdschr. [= in the manuscripts] des Prisc. 5, 3, 13 S. 645 proculenam und porculaenam, porcellam ist eine Verbesserung [= is a correction] von Reiz)."
      After looking into more older grammars, it seems that if a grammar mentions quaequam or quamquam and if it gives a reference for it, it is Plautus' Miles gloriosus IV. As some editions have quemquam and as F. Neue mentions various forms of the substantive, it's a doubtful passage. As ATM this seems to be the only cite for the feminine quaequam, quamquam, quaquam, and as the feminine quisquam is attested, and as the substantival quidquam (quicquam) is used adjectivally too, it seems to be more likely that quemquam is the correct word.
  • With the adjectival forms feminine quisquam and doubtful quemquam and neuter quicquam, it looks like the adjectival pronoun is declined like the substantival pronoun. As Plautus is the common reference, it might however be the Old Latin declension. As dictionaries and older grammar mention forms like quaequam, quamquam, quāquam and quodquam/quocquam, these forms could exist in Medieval or New Latin, but would require a label or qualifier.

So it looks like quisquam is thus declined:

substantivally adjectivally
sg. sg.
m./f. n. m. f. n.
nom. quisquam quidquam/quicquam quisquam quisquam / [quaequam] quicquam / [quodquam/quocquam]
gen. cujusquam
(cuiusquam, or cûiusquam by Allen's and Greenough's notation instead of a misleading cūiusquam to denote the "consonant i")
(cuiusquam etc.)
dat. cuiquam cuiquam
acc. quemquam
quidquam/quicquam quemquam
[quemquam / quamquam]
[ [quenquam] / [quanquam] ]
quicquam / [quodquam/quocquam]
abl. quōquam
also quīquam
quōquam quōquam
also quīquam
[quōquam / quāquam] quōquam

BTW: Is the the feminine of the substantival pronoun quispiam attested?
- 20:59, 14 April 2017 - 08:09, 15 April 2017 (UTC)


RFV for:

  • feminine ablative singular quāquā used substantivally and not just adjectivally
  • feminine accusative singular quamquam and feminine plurals

Rationale and notes:

  • Allen and Greenough state after giving some forms: "Other cases are cited, but have no authority", which leads to the question whether or not it's correct. Are there other cites with "authority" (whatever that's supposed to mean), or for some forms even cites (and may thay be without "authority")?
  • As for quibusquibus the given cite depends on edition (see quisquis#Usage notes). There could be other cites - but are there any?
    As for quīquī some interpretations of cites should be wrong (by mistaking an ablative singular for nominative plural), and some could depend on the edition.
    There might be cites for fem. acc. sg. quamquam and fem. plurals, but the cites seem to be doubtful, i.e. they contain errors or depend on manuscript or edition.
    • If it depends on the manuscript or edition, there should be a note.
    • There could also be Medieval or New Latin cites, but then there should be a label or note.
  • Feminine ablative quāquā could, by attestation, be restricted to adjectival use (some might say that it's then not a pronoun form but an adjective form).
  • Nominative plural quīquī and plural genitive quōrumquōrum could be unattested too, but these forms make sense if there is quōsquōs, quibusquibus or neuter quaequae (for these compare the notes in quisquis).
    For the feminines it's different: As there is feminine nominative singular quisquis, one could also assume that the other feminines are or would be like the masculine too, that is, the forms could be common. From quāquā one could derive the other feminines, but that only works if quāquā is attested substantivally and then one could derive two forms, an older one from quisquis, a later one from quāquā.


  • See quisquis for some citations and notes.
  • Allen and Greenough's New Latin Grammar for schools and colleges founded on comparative grammar, edited by J. B. Greenough, G. L. Kittredge, A. A. Howard and Benj. L. D'Ooge, 1903, p. 69:
    "In quisquis whoever, both parts are declined, but the only forms in common use are quisquis, quidquid (quicquid) and quōquō.
    Note 1.–Rare forms are quemquem and quibisquibus; an ablative quīquī is sometimes found in early Latin; the ablative feminine quāquā is both late and rare. Cuicui occurs as a genitive in the phrase cuicui modī, of whatever kind. Other cases are cited, but have no authority. In early Latin quisquis is occasionally feminine.
    Note 2.–Quisquis is usually substantive, except in the ablative quōquō, which is more commonly an adjective."
    • Maybe the late and rare feminine ablative quāquā is commonly or even only used adjectivally?
  • Friedrich Neue, Formenlehre der Lateinischen Sprache, 2nd part, 2nd edition, Berlin, 1875, p. 240-241 & 245 and 246-249:
    Original: "42. [...] quisquis auch adjectivisch in quisquis color Verg. Ge. 2, 256 im Pal., im Med. und Bern. b c m. sec. und bei Serv., und Horat. Serm. 2, 1, 60, quisquis honos Verg. Aen. 10, 493, quisquis erit ventus Plin. H. N. 18, 34, 77, 339. [...]
    Der Dat. und Ablat. Plur. beinahe aller dieser Pronomina hat quibus, nicht quis. So [...] quibusquibus Liv. 41, 8, 10 [...]
    44. Quisquis [...] hatte in der guten Zeit keine eigene Form für das Femin. Quamquam rem a quoquo cognoverit ist zwar bei Cic. de orat. 1, 15, 67 in den Lag. 13 und 32 und mehreren andern, aber in mehreren Büchern quamque, statt dessen in den Ausg. [= Ausgaben] quamcumque; und quaequae in ceterae naturae suis seminibus quaequae gignuntur Cic. N. D. 2, 22, 58 ist nach dem Leid. A und Erl. in quaeque berichtigt. Die Dramatiker gebrauchen quisquis [...] mit Beziehung auf eine weibliche Person. Mulier, quisquis es Plaut. Cist. 2, 3, 66, liberalist quisquis est von der vorher erwähnten furtiva virgo Persa 4, 3, 76, quisquis es, quae parentis in tam angustum tuos locum compegeris Rud. 4, 4, 102. Dazu kommen die unter 33 nach Non. S. 197 angeführten Stellen des Liv. Andr., Cäcil. und Pacuv.
    [...] Quaqua als Pronomen [...] ist zuerst in quaqua de re Tac. Ann. 6, 7, dann quoquo nomine quoquo ritu quaqua facie Appul. Met. 11, 2 S. 755 (in den Flor. 1, 3 quaq; in den Guelf. 1. 2 und anderen Büchern quaque); quaqua ratione C. I. L. 3, 781 Z. 19 und wahrscheinlich Z. 2, Scäv. Dig. 32, 41 § 9, Ulpian. Dig. 37, 14, 16. 40, 12, 7. 45, 3, 5. 49, 5, 5, Paul. 17, 2, 3 § 1, Marcian. 34, 4, 13, Pompej. comment. S. 74 (130); ex quaqua causa Gaius Dig. 29, 1, 17 § 1, quaqua exceptione Ulpian. 44, 4, 2 § 5; quaqua aetate Tert. de anima 56, quaqua parte Pompej. comment. S. 387 (269) und 400 (275).
    [...] Quaequae als Neutr. Scäv. Dig. 34, 3, 28 § 1 aus einem Testament: Quibusque legata in eo testamento quod incideram dedi, omnia rata esse et quaequae scripta sunt volo; und vielleicht Sen. benef. 2, 4, 1 ubi, quaequae impetrasti, rogandum est nach dem Meil. 5, in welchem queque ist (in mehreren Büchern quoque, in einzelnen quod und quid). Aber falsch ist [examples with errors and corrections]. Falsch ferner als Fem. [another example with an error and correction]. Ut in dote essent fructus quosquos percepisset Ulpian. Dig. 23, 4, 4; aber unrichtig quosquos proxumus nanctus est montes, in iis castra posuit Liv. 27, 28, 2 im Put., Med., Colb., Bamb. und in den Pal. Über quibusquibus vergl. unter 42, und über die ganze Declination von quisquis Madvig zu Cic. Fin. 3, 14, 45."
    Translation: "42. [...] quisquis also adjectivally in [cites].
    The dative and ablative plural of almost all of these pronouns (i.e. pronouns compounded from qui or quis) has quibus, not quis. So [...] quibusquibus in Liv.
    44. Quisquis [...] didn't have an own form for the feminine in the good time. [shortend and paraphrased: The feminines quamquam and quaequae in some texts are doubtful or were corrected.] The dramatists use quisquis [...] with relation to a female person. [cites.]
    [...] Quaqua as pronoun in [cites].
    [...] Quaequae as neuter in [reference] out of an testament: [cite]. But wrong is [examples with errors and corrections]. Also wrong as feminine is [another example with an error and correction]. [cite with quosquos]; but incorrect is [an incorrect example with quosquos]. About quibusquibus see under 42, and about the whole declension of quisquis see [reference]."
    • So can one say that the feminines quamquam and quaequae do exist (that is, exist in ancient Latin)?
  • L&S: "quī-qui, pron. indef., for quisquis, whosoever (very rare): quiqui est, Plaut. Aul. 4, 10, 45.", and "quis-quis, quaeque, quodquod, and subst. quicquid, quidquid". Other dictionaries mention quiqui, quaequae and quodquod too. Feminine quaequae and adjectival neuter quodquod seem to be doubtful (cp. F. Neue). For quīquī see below.
  • The given references for quīquī in various sources are:
    (a) as nom. sg.: quiqui pro quisquis in neque partem tibi ab eo quiqui est indipisces Plaut. Aul. 4, 10, 44/45, is ita appellatur quiqui admittit Varro R. R. 2, 7, 8;
    (b) as abl. sg.: Pl. Men. 1159;
    (c) as nom. pl.: Plaut. Cas. 3, 1, 10, quiqui licebunt Men. 1159 = 5, 9, 97, Poen. 3, 2, 11; Liv. 29, 19, 9 in Put. m. pr.;
    (d) without mentioning a case: esto ut hi sint, quiqui integri sunt, et sani, Cic. Sest. 45, 97; quiqui licebunt, Plaut. Men. 1159 (with translation rather implying it to be abl. sg. than nom. sg. or nom. pl.).
    Plaut. Men. 5, 9, 97 and Plaut. Men. 1159 is be the same, and it is once given as a source for a ablative and once for a plural which doesn't work.
    For me it seems that Cas. "cum quiqui" and Poen. "cum quiqui" are abl., and Men. "venibunt quiqui licebunt" might be too although it might look like a pl. as the verbs are in pl.
    There are editions of Plautus' Aulularia with qui instead of quiqui, and it does depend on the edition. The rerum rusticarum de agri cultura at does not have quiqui. And looking in various books at it does indeed depend on the edition.
    As for "Liv. 29, 19, 9 in Put. m. pr.", "m. pr." should mean manu propria = by one's own hand and Put. should denote a manuscript or edition. The text at doesn't have quiqui. So it might depend on the manuscript or edition.
    F. Neue stated regarding "esto ut hi sint, quiqui integri sunt, et sani, Cic. Sest. 45, 97" that it does appear in editions but not in manuscripts. At it does not appear but "esto igitur ut ii sint, [...], qui et integri sunt et sani [...].".
    So abl. sg quiqui should exist (and is also mentioned in A&G), while nom. sg. and nom. pl. quiqui seem to be doubtful and could be cases for A&G's "Other cases are cited, but have no authority."

From what I've seen, there could be three forms:

  • substantivally used: quisquis, quisquis, quidquid (quicquid) - plurals do occur, but could be doubtful (quisquis#Usage notes)
  • adjectivally used: quisquis, *quisquis, quidquid (quicquid) - the feminine could be unattested
  • adjectivally used: quisquis, *quaequae (abl. quāquā), *quodquod (quocquod) - the feminine except abl. quāquā and the neuter *quodquod could be unattested

- 22:33, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

TL;DR. - -sche (discuss) 19:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
In short it is verification request for certain forms (see "For the feminine quaequam and the plural" and "RFV for [...]"). For the verification procress everything else such as references and citations can be ignored.
Discussions could then arise, if citations are found: Are the citations correct, or doubtful, from old editions or the like? Do the citations contain a selfstanding pronoun or what in English is also termed adjective (as in demonstrative adjective, indefinite adjective) or determiner (as in demonstrative determiner)? Additional problems do arise because of this BP proposal. Treating Old Latin and other Latin as different languages means that Plautus (as in quisquam#Citations, mecum#Adverb, illic#Pronoun) doesn't attest anything for the other Latin. - 10:39, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
Very late reply, but doesn't quamquam also mean "although"? Johnny Shiz (talk) 16:38, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

Some Latin adjectivesEdit

RFV for the ablative singular and the genitive plural or neuter nominative, accusative or vocative plural to determine the declension of some adjectives (abl. sg. -ī or -e, gen. pl. -ium or -um, neuter pl. -ia or -a).

  • It could be that the declensions is unknown or that wt's declension is wrong. Well, in Medieval or New Latin some more forms could be attested, but then there should be a note and then it could be that there are multiple forms.
  • Just BTW as defence in advance: Knowing how wiktionary creates inflected forms, and seeing what grammarians write or grammars state, it's justified to question multiple entries with doubtful inflected forms.


  • Allen & Greenough's New Latin Grammar for schools and colleges founded on comparative grammar, 1903, p. 53f.:
    "121. [...] a. The Ablative Singular commonly ends in -ī, but sometimes -e. [...] The following have regularly -e:—caeles, compos, [†dēses], dīves, hospes, particeps, pauper, prīnceps, sōspes, superstes. [...]"
    b. The Genitive Plural ends commonly in -ium, but has -um in the following:1
    1. Always in compos, dīves, inops, particeps, prīnceps, supplex, and compounds of nouns which have -um: as, quadru-pēs, bi-color.
    2. Sometimes, in poetry, in participles in -ns: as, silentum concilium, a council of the silent shades (Aen. vi. 432). [...] d. Vetus (gen. -ĕris) and pūbes (gen. -ĕris) regularly have -e in the ablative singular, -a in the nominative and accusative plural, and -um in the genitive plural. For ūber, see § 119 [note: there is ūber, abl. sg. ūberī, gen. pl. ūberum, neuter plural ūbera, and the note "An ablative in -e is very rare."; but there is also vetus with abl. sg. "vetere (-ī)"]. [...]
    122. The following special points require notice:—[...] d. Many adjectives, from their signification, can be used only in the masculine and feminine. [...] Such are adulēscēns, youthful; [†dēses], -idis, slothful; inops, -opis, poor; sōspes, -itis, safe. [...]
    1 Forms in -um sometimes occur in a few others."
    • Stating that sōstes has abl. sg. -e, but not stating that it has gen. pl. -um could mean that the gen. pl. is -ium or unattested. If it is -ium, there could be more declensions than just abl. sg. -ī, gen. pl. -ium (like i-stem substantives) and abl. sg. -e, gen. pl. -um (like consonant-stem substantives) and abl. sg. -e or -ī, gen. pl. -ium (poetically sometimes -um) (participles, with forms depending on the way of usage). In fact, with ūber, abl. sg. -ī (very rare -e), gen. pl. -um, neuter plural -a A&G have another declension form.
  • 21st century grammars (Pons, Klett, Duden and others) mention the following adjectives with abl. -e and gen. pl. -um: vetus, dīves, pauper, prīnceps, compos, superstes, sōspes, particeps, although many grammars just mention a few of them.
  • William Smith & Theophilus D. Hall, The student's Latin grammar. A grammar of the Latin language, 2nd edition, London, 1867, p. 18 had this: "The following Adjectives have [Ablative Singular in] ĕ only: paupĕr, pūbēs, dēsĕs, compŏs, impŏs, caelebs, princeps and sŭperstĕs."
  • Just BTW: An 18th century grammar noted that several adjectives, such as "ales, bipes, bicolor, cicur, compos, concolor, degener, deses, dives, impos, inops, immemor, memor, locuples, paper, particeps, praeceps, redux, superstes, sospes, teres, anceps, biceps, triceps &c." don't have a neuter nominative, accusative or vocative plural, which would mean that e.g. *sospitia or *sospita is unattested (or was so centuries ago, or at least was uncommon or proscribed). An 19th century grammar mentioned something similar; namely that some adjectives such as "vigil, memor, compos, impos, pauper, dives, sospes, superstes, redux, supplex, particeps, princeps" are often used of persons, thus are often used in masculine and feminine gender, although they are sometimes also with neuters, but it's avoided to use them in the neuter plural cases in -a; for example one can say numen nemor, but not numina memora. So it could be more complicated to attest or verify the correct declension of caelebs or sospes for example.

- 07:16, 19 April 2017 (UTC)


See A&G cited above, and compare with superstes.


See A&G cited above.
Georges: "particeps, cipis, Abl. cipe"


See A&G cited above, and compare with particeps.


See A&G cited above.


See A&G cited above.
L&S mentions this example: "sub caelite mensa, Paul. Nol. Carm. 24, 9 al.", though it is Late Latin.
Also RFV for the nominative singular as L&S states "but not found in nom. sing.", as Gaffiot states "(inus. au nominatif)" and as Georges states "Nomin. caeles nicht nachweisbar." (nom. [sg.] caeles not attestable).
BTW: A&G mention defective adjectives too. From the defectives A&G mention, exlex and seminex/semineci here are mentioned without any note, while primoris has one.


Compare: caelebs#Citations
Though it's an poetic example with abl. sg. caelibe (used out of metrical reasons?).
Also: GBS has results with caelibum like "[...] vt inprimis de Collegiis caelibum virginum ita constituatur [...]" (with should be: of the unmarried virgins), but for caelibium there is only one GBS result found thrice (in "[...] quam Senior Augustus post Julius rogationes incitandis caelibium poenis & augendo aerario sanxerat [...]") and that could be something else.


See A&G cited above.
Compare: Talk:pubes#Latin gives some more results with puberum, and some with pubere and puberi, but none with puberium or puberia or pubera.


Compare with pubes.
Note: Pliny might have impubium but that would be a form of impubis and not of impubes (gen. pl. impuberum or impuberium?)


  • L&S: "rĕdux (rēdux, Plaut. Rud. 4, 2, 4; id. Capt. 5, 1, 2), dŭcis (abl. reduce, Liv. 21, 50: reduci, Ov. H. 6, 1), adj."
  • Lewis: "redux ducis (abl. reduce; poet. also reducī, O.)"
  • Georges: "Abl. Sing. bei Dichtern auch reduci"
This implies that the abl. sg. is usually reduce and poetically (out of metrical reasons?) also reducī. The questioned plural forms however could be unattested (in ancient Latin).


  • See A&G cited above, for gen. pl.
  • L&S: "supplex (subpl-), ĭcis (abl. supplĭci, but also -ĭce freq. in dactyl. and anap. verse [...] As subst.: supplex , ĭcis, m."
  • Lewis: "supplex (subpl-) icis (abl. icī or ice; gen plur. -icum, rarely -icium), adj. [...] As subst m."
  • Georges: "supplex, plicis, Abl. gew. supplice, doch auch supplicī, Genet. Plur. supplicum u. (selten) supplicium"
This could mean that the adjective has both forms. However, this is more complicated as the dictionaries maybe don't properly differ between the inflection of the adj. and the subst., and it get's more complicated as there is also a noun supplicium.
Gen. pl. supplicum for the subst. should be attested (Cic. Mur. 4, 9: "repudiatio supplicum"). supplice and supplici for the adj. should be attested too (see supplex). Though as for now, supplice could be a poetic form (out of metrical reasons?). How about the gen. pl. or neuter pl. of the adj.?


For the doubtful plural forms.
  • A&G has abl. sg. -ī, "very rare" -e, gen. pl. -um, neuter pl. -a
  • Dictionaries have abl. sg. -ī and one reference or cite with -e, but often they don't mention the doubftul plural forms.
  • Note that there is a also a noun uber which also has gen. sg. uberis, so just attesting the word forms uberum or ubera, doesn't mean anything.


@Atitarev, Cinemantique, Wikitiki89, Wanjuscha, KoreanQuoter Another creation by User:D1gggg. Is this real? If so, can this entry be fixed up? Thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 18:03, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

It's vertical lines, not slashes and more hyphens. I doubt I've seen it in print, it's usually handwritten.--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:08, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
I generally agree with Anatoli that it is much more common in handwriting. However, I believe I have seen it reproduced with a typewriter (!) in the form -"-. — SMUconlaw (talk) 12:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I guess there are various ways to write this: --!!--, ==||==, --//--, ==="===. Not sure how to go about this RFV. I don't care either way, to be honest, whether it is kept or deleted. This set of symbols seems similar to the way character substitution works, you can use *** or ####, any number of them, with no particular rules. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:45, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I am leaning towards delete. I suppose this nomination is different from the one archived at "Talk:---" because that discussion was about line patterns that were not regarded as language, whereas in this case we are talking about a symbol that represents the word ditto. However, I think the fact that there is no consistent way of representing this symbol in print (unlike, for example, the @ symbol) means that it may not be verifiable. — SMUconlaw (talk) 15:39, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
I assumed this was translingual; in any case, it is quite common in Danish, although I've only seen it in handwriting. As Atitarev says, the lines are vertical, nor slanted. When I see it, it is written just below what it replicates, as in
The cat has a velocity of 3 m/s.
The dog ------||--------  5 m/s.

where the length of the (solid, not dashed) horizontal lines are appropriately adjusted. I have never heard anyone regard this as nonstandard.__Gamren (talk) 12:45, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I don't know about Russian but in German something like " should be attestable. But I can't think of any good way to search for it on Google. Maybe one could attest Unterführungszeichen (compare de:w:Unterführungszeichen) and find reference works, and then claim that " is in "clearly widespread use" (WT:CFI). Maybe the same can be done for Russian?
" and do already exist and are Translingual. Maybe Russian uses one of these? - 23:10, 21 May 2017 (UTC)
Here (14:40) is an example of what I was talking about that I happened to stumble upon (searching for it is obviously impractical).__Gamren (talk) 15:17, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
I've made Unsupported titles/Hyphen vertical line vertical line hyphen.__Gamren (talk) 16:15, 31 March 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense ばかFumikotalk 09:31, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks to me like a mistake, if Japanese people follow the western custom and refer to a ship as "kanojo", that would be pronoun sense #1. Siuenti (talk) 00:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
彼女 is used in this sense in Japanese. Japanese also has the expression, 処女航海 (maiden voyage). See where you will find "彼女の処女航海". See also, . I also agree that this sense should be listed under Pronoun. 馬太阿房 (talk) 19:26, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Apparently that website looks made from machine-translation. Japanese custom don't treat ship as female.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 17:23, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Move it to the pronoun section and mark it as rare. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:34, 30 April 2017 (UTC)
If the sense is real, the definition should also change from "Western custom" to "English custom" (re treating ships as females). English is not the only "Western" language, LOL. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:10, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Nor is English the only language that does this.__Gamren (talk) 15:45, 22 October 2017 (UTC)


“Used as a specific epithet in the taxonomic names of plants to mean ‘having five leaves’.” — Latin or Translingual? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

It exist translingually in taxonomic names like "Botryosicyos pentaphyllus", "Hibiscus pentaphyllus", "Phyllanthus pentaphyllus", "Pileus pentaphyllus", "Fragaria pentaphylla", "Manihot pentaphylla".
In Fragmenta phytographiae australiae, contulit Ferdinandus Mueller. Vol. II. (Melborne, 1860-1861, page 13) "Hibiscus pentaphyllus." is the title of a section and the text is in Latin. So one could argue that it appears in a Latin text. But as it is in italics and as it is just a section title and no sentence, it could be a mentioning and no usage. Anyway, "Hibiscus pentaphyllus" is a translingual and Translingual* taxonomic term and so is pentaphyllus.
pentaphyllam (fem. acc. sg.) does occur in Latin texts. Often it could be in Latin texts and yet be Translingual taxonomics (unlike English, Latin might decline taxonomic terms in a Latin way). It seems that there are also real Latin non-Translingual usages:
  • Ernsti H. F. Meyer commentariorum de plantis africae australioris [...] Vol. I. Fascic. I, Leipzig, 1835, page 193: "Celeberrimus hujus ordinis conditor coronam stamineam non solum modo monophyllam modo pentaphyllam dixit, sed hoc discrimine quoque in generibus disponendis usus est. [...] Quae discriminis illius ambiguitas nec ipsum Brownium fugisse exinde colligo, quod Xysmalobio suo in conspectu generum coronam pentaphyllam, in generis ipsius charactere monophyllam seu partitam tribuit, et vice cersa Metaplexidi suae coronam hic pentaphyllam, ibi quinquepartitam." "coronam stamineam" could be a species name spelled differently than in modern taxonomics (w:Corona (gastropod)) or it could be a corona consisting of threads (w:Perianth). By the spelling it could be that genera are spelled with a capital letter, so corona could be a normal noun and pentaphyllus could be a normal adjective.
  • Joannes or Joannis Raius [abl. sg. Joanne Raio], Historia plantarum [...] Tomus primus.", London, 1686, page 468: "Caulis bipedalis est, alis divisus, rotundus, striatus ut angulosis videatur, asper albâ hirsutie, umbellas edens, ut in penultima trifidas, sed breviori petiolo & crassiori impositas, basin habentes trifoliam, sed juxta flores pentaphyllam."
But by the version history, it was created as a Translingual entry (on 21 September 2014 someone changed Translingual into Latin), and by the meaning it is about the meaning used in translingual and Translingual taxonomic names ("Used as a specific epithet in the taxonomic names"). So the easiest and safest way would be to change it back into Translingual and maybe add some derived terms (like Botryosicyos pentaphyllus etc.). If a non-Translingual Latin word can undoubtly be attested, it could still be added later.
* translingual and Translingual isn't the same: By attestation some Translingual terms could at the moment be monolingual (e.g. only English), although hypothetically they could be used in other languages as well. pentaphyllus is used in more than one language, so it's used translingually and is Translangual (WT:About Translingual#Accepted: "taxonomic names").
- 13:27, 30 April 2017 (UTC)


RFV for the Latin adjective / Translingual taxonomic epithet. It's defined as “Used as a specific epithet; shining, gleaming.”, but I don't see on what usage that definition is based. The etymology given reads “From Ancient Greek αἴγλη (aíglē, sunlight, gleam), possibly from an Epic Greek genitive and dative form, or possibly via Latin Aegle (any of three mythological figures)”, but that doesn't explain the -fīnus element. Compare Aeglefinus, which I think derives from the French églefin (haddock), which appears to be attested since circa 1300 as the Middle French egreffin. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 22:19, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

I can't find what source I might have used for the etymology. I fear there may not have been one. The derivation that Robert shows for églefin does not include any Greek or Latin. DCDuring (talk) 22:32, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
The meaning is likely based on the presumed etymology, and the "usage" likely is the one in taxonomic names.
  • David H. McNicoll, Dictionary of Natural History Terms with their derivations, including the various orders, genera, and species, London, 1863, page 9 gives this etymology: "Ægle'finus (Ichth.) αἰγλοφανής [aiglophanḗs], brilliant, lustrous". It contains a change of ο to e and of a to e - and the only explanation for that that I can think of is English mispronunciation or French or English deformation. Alternatively, the given etymology could be incorrect.
  • Dictionaries and other books mention French aiglefin, aigrefin, églefin (by Frenchies) or eglefin (by non-Frenchies or in caps as EGLEFIN) and English eglefinus as names for haddock. The origin is once said to be Dutch (14th century, so likely Middle Dutch) eschlevis which is said to literally mean shell-fish (from Why is an Apple a Pomme? A Journey with Words by Denis Dunstone, 2014, e-books version at, which also mentions Spanish eglefino, Portuguese eglefim, Italian eglefino). A German book mentioned a Dutch schelvis (which looks more like Schellfisch) and says there was a "Umbildung". In another context a French aigle fin with the meaning "clever person" (schlauer Mensch) and the literal meaning "fine eagle" (feiner Adler) was mentioned.
    So maybe the etymology is like this: some Dutch word, likely for the haddock -> French aiglefin, aigrefin, églefin (French caps, maybe in older typography, EGLEFIN), maybe by folketymological deforming of the Dutch to resemble aigle fin and then maybe to deform it as it's no eagle (aigle) -> maybe English or some other European language -> Translingual aeglefinus. Maybe one can find more and better references for this.
BTW: The long e (Wiktionary: "aeglēfīnus") is likely from one of the two presumed etymologies. So if the etymology is a guess, the length likely is too, and if it is a guess, then it shouldn't be "aeglēfīnus" without any note.
BTW 2: By connecting aeglefinus with the French noun aiglefin, aigrefin, églefin, aeglefinus could be a noun too (in taxonomics used in apposition), so it's almost like an alternative form of Aeglefinus except that modern taxonomic uses capitalisation in a special way.
- 23:39, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
In the sense "haddock", it's obviously from the French or some close relative thereof and is a noun. The waspfish, however, is in a different order, so aeglefinus may be an adjective in Neocentropogon aeglefinus. If so, it should be listed as two etymologies. PierreAbbat (talk) 21:45, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
  • According to "apparently a latinization of “Egrefin” and “Eglefin,” its vernacular names in France and England, respectively, according to Pierre Belon, De aquatilibus (1553)" DCDuring (talk) 01:44, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


Shinjitai form of 謳歌. —suzukaze (tc) 03:29, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

Character 𧦅 is part of Extended shinjitai, "unofficial characters". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:45, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

May 2017Edit


Tagged but not listed. - -sche (discuss) 17:24, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

L&S: "Perh. a kind of collar for the neck, Non. p. 200, 16 (Trag. Rel. v. 302 Rib.)." Maybe that's the source for it, and maybe in another dictionary it's without the "Perh.", or maybe it's coming from L&S but with ignoring the "Perh." which should abbreviate "Perhaps". - 21:55, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
"Perh." means perhaps in L&S.
  • L&S: "Perh. [= perhaps] a kind of collar for the neck, Non. p. 200, 16 (Trag. Rel. v. 302 Rib.)."
  • L w/o S: "a curb, used as an instrument of torture: civīs tradere camo, H. dub. [= doubtful]"
  • Gaffiot: "carcan : *Acc. Tr. 302."
  • Georges: "Strafwerkzeug für Sklaven u. Verbrecher, Acc. tr. 302. Hor. sat. 1, 6, 39."
Based on this it should rather be a yoke (frame around the neck) than a necklace (jewelry worn around the neck).
As for Horatius, it does depend on the edition and camo could be less common than Cadmo.
The works mentioned by the dictionaries:
  • Nonius Marcellus, De compendiosa doctrina, page 200, line 16f. In: Noni Marcelli compendiosa doctrina. Emendavit et adnotavit Lucianus Mueller. Pars I, Leipzig, 1888, p. 295f.:
    Collus masculino Accius Epigonis:
    quid césso ire ad eam? em, praésto est camo† collúm gravem.
    16 Epigonis Me; epigono C. – 17 equidem illud camo idem quod κάμπτω olim putaveram. sed ne sic quidem sententia satis facilis et commoda. vulgo ita explicatur, ut camus sit κημός, et significet, quod exemplo caret, vinculum collare. propius a vero existimo catellae (cf. pg. 199 l. catellae) vocabulum latere et hausta quaedam, quibus octon. iamb. impleretur, ut puta: quid césso ire ad eam? eam praéstost. et catélla (ablat.) habet collúm gravem. nam interdum in hoc metro caesuram neglegi notum. illa quin de Eriphyla dicta esse videantur non intercedo. at pessime puto factum, quod Epigonos Accii eandem cum Eriphyla habuit fabulam Ribbeckius duasque res diversissimas Thebarum expugnationem et Eriphylae caedem una tragoedia contineri existimavit.
  • Nonius Marcellus, De compendiosa doctrina, page 200, line 16f. In: Nonii Marcelli de conpendiosa doctrina libros XX onionsianis copiis usus edidit Wallace M. Lindsay. Volumen I. LL. I–III, argumentum, indicem siglorum et praefationem continens, Leipzig, 1903, p. 294:
    Collus masculino Accius Epigonis (302):
    . quid cesso ire ád eam? em, praesto ést: camo collúm gravem.
    16 epigono (etiam F3)
  • Otto Ribbeck, Tragicorum latinorum reliquiae, Leipzig, 1852, p. 148 (L. Attius [= Lucius Accius], Epigoni, XIII (9), verse 302):
    Iám quid cesso ire ád eam? en praesto est: én camo collúm grauem!
    302 iam om. libri   em praesto est camo libri hem praesto est: camo en Vossius hem praesto est: en camo Grotius Bibl. crit. nou. IV
  • Otto Ribbeck, Tragicorum latinorum reliquiae. Secundis curis. Volumen I., Leipzig, 1871, p. LV and p. 176 (L. Attius, Epigoni, XIII (9), verse 302) (similary at wikisource):
    [p. VII and IX]  PRAEFATIO
    [...] eis
    quod infra sequitur contexui.
    [p. XLIX]  Attium et debebam et volebam ACCIVM scribere. Nam hoc fuisse poetae nostri nomen fidem facit cum frequentia, immo constantia huius potissimum scripturae in testimoniis, tum Pisaurensium titulorum auctoritas, ubi A c c i i apparent, maximi illa momenti, si probabiliter statuitur Accianum (nam sic apud Hieronymum dicitur) fundum, qui iuxta Pisaurum fuit, a patre poetae colono possessum et filio traditum fuisse. [...]
    [p. LV]  V. 302 violentius Buechelerus eiecto camo ad senarii modos constrinxit:
    quid césso ire ad eam? em praésto est : em (vel iam) collúm grauem.
    [p. 176]  [Séd] quid cesso ire ád eam? em praesto est: cámo [uide] collúm grauem!
    302 sed om. libri   em praesto est, om. uide, libri hem praesto est: camo en Vossius hem praesto est: en camo Grotius Bibl. crit. nou. IV
  • Quintus Horatius Flaccus, Satirae = Sermones, liber I. In: Horace Satires, Epistles and Ars poetica with an English translation by H. Rushton Fairclough, 1942, p. 78f. (similary at wikisource and thelatinlibrary):
    "tune, Syri, Damae aut Dionysi filius, audes
    deicere de saxo civis aut tradere Cadmo?"
    "Do you, the son of a Syrus, a Dama, a Dionysius,d dare to fling from the rocke or to hand over to Cadmus citizens of Rome?"
    d These are common slave-names.
    e i.e. the Tarpeian rock from which criminals were sometimes thrown by order of a tribune. Cadmus was a public executioner.
- 04:16, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
In an edition with English translation, Attius/Accius' "camo" is interpreted as necklace or neckband. So there are (a) Horatius with the doubtful "camo" (a punishment device) or "Cadmo" (proper noun) and (b) Attius/Accius with the doubtful "camo" (a punishment device or a necklace or neck-band). It's doubtful, but should be cited. - 10:42, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

ad perpetuum and ad perpetuamEdit

Latin phrases purportedly meaning “everlasting” or “permanent”. I’m most sceptical, however, about the usage note included under ad perpetuum, viz.:

  • The words ad perpetuum or ad perpetuam rei memoriam were normally placed at the end of the salutation on Roman documents to convey the meaning that the documents were trustworthy and permanent.

I didn’t see anything about that in the usual lexicographic places (see perpetuus#References). The phrases in perpetuō (ablative) and in perpetuum (accusative) are well attested (elsewhere), but nowhere do I see mentioned a phrase with ad and any form of perpetuus. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 07:49, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

  • has many mentionings of "ad perpetuam rei memoriam" or "ad perpetuam memoriam". could imply that "ad perpetuam rei memoriam" appears in Medieval documents. As the pope lives in Rome and as it is "Roman Catholic Church" the quoted "Roman documents" could be correct, but vague or misleading. (said to be a bull from 2011 by wikipedia) has "Benedictus Episcopus Servus Servorum Dei ad perpetuam rei memoriam." and (said to be a bull) has "Pius Episcopus Servus Servorum Dei ad perpetuam rei memoriam" at the top.,+Johann+Georg/Neueste+Reisen+durch+Deutschland,+B%C3%B6hmen,+Ungarn,+die+Schweiz,+Italien+und+Lothringen/Erste+Abtheilung/51.+Schreiben?hl=ad+perpetuum cites a text with "ad perpetuum" in it. Maybe it is a British Medieval or New Latin form of "in perpetuum"? - 19:52, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

deinde scriptumEdit

RFV for this supposedly idiomatic Latin phrases defined as:

  • "in place of a signature", "the same" (referring to a signature written above on the page, typically following a P.S.)

I haven’t been able to find it in L&S, du Cange, Elementary Lewis, Niermeyer, or the OLD. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:29, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

It could be NL and not CL, so it would be missing in L&S and OLD. w:de:Liste lateinischer Abkürzungen, w:de:DS and w:de:Postskriptum mention it, but that's not a reliable source and could be a German abbreviation. Talk:deinde scriptum gives another etymology, but in English, German, Latin that would be unlikely. - 12:55, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


Sense 1: "False plane tree".
By the version history I get the impression that probably there is just the second sense and this first sense is a misplaced literal translation.
In Latin Acer pseudoplatanum and Acer Pseudoplatanum (the latter in Carolus Linnaeus') do exist, but that would have the 2nd sense in it.

  • If sense 1 doesn't exist, this likely better is a Translingual than a Latin entry.
  • In modern non-Latin taxonomics pseudoplatanus could be an adjective as there is Anomalocentra pseudoplatana (in a English taxonomic book from 2002). But well, ATM this might be the only source for the feminine and this taxonomic name.

- 12:55, 5 May 2017 (UTC)


Rfv-sense ばかFumikotalk 12:21, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

It seems to be included as such in CC-CEDICT (not that it means much for our purposes). Taiwan's Ministry of Education dictionary seems to describe something more specific. —suzukaze (tc) 22:31, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
(google:"青鮫的" has a really feeble amount of hits...) —suzukaze (tc) 22:37, 12 May 2017 (UTC)


For the doubtful feminine forms heptaphyllus, heptaphylli, heptaphyllo etc.
BTW 1: In Translingual taxonomics the feminine is the more logical "heptaphylla".
BTW 2: this is the only Latin adjective ending in -us and using "la-adecl-2nd" besides the doubtful chrysocarpus. - 12:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Design by contractEdit

For the spelling, the gender and the inflection.
"Design by Contract" with neuter gender and genitive "Design by Contract" are attestable, but that's not "Design by contract" with masculine gender and strange genitive "Design by contracts".
IMO it could simply be moved and changed... - 12:28, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

  • It's not a proper noun either. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:57, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
    • The source for "Design by contract" could be de:w:Design by contract, but German Wiki uses "Design by contract", "Design by Contract" and "Design By Contract". The masculine gender could come from the given German translation in "Design by contract (kurz DbC, englisch für Entwurf gemäß Vertrag)" as Entwurf is masculine. But Design is neuter. The strange genitive "Design by contracts" could come from en.Wikt's template.
      German Design by Contract n does now exist (which also means that Design by contract can't be moved anymore to the correct place...). - 11:14, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "a doctor's degree in optometry". Seems to me like it's probably just English, or possibly Translingual, but I suppose it could be New Latin. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 22:49, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

In Latin it could abbreviate a New Latin *"optometriae doctor". But for the full form, I only saw a few mentionings or non-Latin usages like English "[...] give the degree of O.D.--Optometriae Doctor, or Doctor of Optometry." The degree could be from the 20th century, hence it's more likely that it's not Latin but just English or at best Translingual. - 23:54, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
The RFV reasoning might also apply to the sense "oculus dexter, the right eye" (Eng OD, OS, OU do exists and were added in diff), and to the sense "the organ of sight; the eye"? For what should OD in that sense even stand? Added RFV-sense at least for "the organ of sight; the eye". - 22:00, 18 December 2018 (UTC)
RFV failed for the degree sense.__Gamren (talk) 23:29, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Note that an anon sense-RFV'd the "organ of sight" sense as well; that one remains to be solved before archiving. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 15:38, 8 February 2019 (UTC)


An initialism for a German noun that we haven't got. Nothing obvious on a quick Google search. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:48, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

There is a [wiki article] on that subject. 17:08, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
Rückscheinbrief does now exist. According to w:en:Rückscheinbrief it's an Austrian-German thing. wp's "RSa-Brief (Rückscheinbrief a [...])" and "RSb-Brief (Rückscheinbrief b)" imply that RSb does not stand for "Rückscheinbrief" but for "Rückscheinbrief b", or something similar as "RSb-Brief" ~ "Rückschreinbrief-b-Brief" would be stupid (though not impossible as "HIV virus" = "human immunodeficiency virus virus" shows). [2] has "RSa   Rückschein a    RSb   Rückschein b", similar [3]/[4]. "Rückschein-a-Brief" makes sense.

June 2017Edit


RFV Spanish etymology - bandol doesn't appear to be a Spanish word. -WF

This was in the time of Old Spanish (1500s), which I am not an expert in. I think bandol was an Old Catalan word (modern bàndol), which includes the Catalan diminutive suffix -ol (Modern Spanish -uelo). That in turn from Old Spanish bando. I would change the etymology to something like this:
From earlier form bandollier, from Middle French bandoulliere, from Old French bandouliere, from Old Spanish bandolera, bandolero "guerrilla", from Catalan bandolera (feminine derivative of bandoler, “member of a band of men”), from bàndol "faction, party" (diminutive suffix -ol), from Old Spanish bando (faction, party). —Stephen (Talk) 02:12, 15 June 2017 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: hoisin sauce. A quick Google search shows that it's absolutely not hoisin sauce. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

It seems to be some sort of seafood sauce used in Western cuisine. In this menu, it is translated as crustacean sauce (salsa di crostacei). I did find some uses meaning hoisin sauce, like this (English version) and this. I'm just unsure if these uses are influenced by Wiktionary and/or sites that use Wiktionary info. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:56, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
@Tooironic, Atitarev, Wyang, any input? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:04, 10 August 2017 (UTC)
I think it can refer to hoisin sauce or any sauce made from 海鮮, but it's a bit awkward (and pretentious)-sounding in Mandarin. I have never used or heard this term before. Wyang (talk) 07:36, 10 August 2017 (UTC)


AFAIK, we mostly use ดรัมเมเยอร์ for drum major. --Octahedron80 (talk) 04:52, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

"คทากร" is in wide use, as in "จุฬาฯ คทากร"; see further results from Google also. --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 05:28, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
@Octahedron80, do you agree with that assertion? @หมวดซาโต้, could you add citations to the page?__Gamren (talk) 23:38, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

July 2017Edit

The Slavic Latin contributions of

All of the contributions of this anon seem pretty shady to me, or at least under wrong title. @Metaknowledge, could you take a gander? —JohnC5

Also everything under Special:Contributions/ —JohnC5 04:57, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
These all seem to be medieval Latin renderings of Serbo-Croatian names, and particularly of medieval Croatian/Pannonian rulers. Many of them could definitely be attested (at least from quotes in secondary sources), but some are plainly erroneous (“Muucimir” is just a misreading of Muncimir). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 07:57, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
Affected Latin entries:
Additionally all these entries might miss a label like {{lb|la|Medieval Latin}}, {{lb|la|New Latin}} or {{lb|la|Medieval Latin|New Latin}}.
As headers and inflection do not fit:
  • The names ending in -o could be nominatives or be inflected forms, e.g. Budimero as nominative or as dative/ablative of Budimerus (gen. Budimeri) or maybe of Budimer (gen. Budimeri).
  • Names ending with mer or mir could have any of the following declensions: a) indeclinable, b) 3rd declension wih gen in -is, c) 2nd declension with gen. in -i and maybe with dropping of e in mer or i in mir similar to e.g. Maeander, gen. Maeandri.
As for vowel length as inflection templates add macra on the ending:
dunno. Maybe after comparing Slave names lengths can be assumed. But before comparison is done, it could be better to give everything without macra.
As for specific names:
  • Muntimerus (Muncimirus) does exist. Muncimir could barely exist (there appears to be a document from 892 (DCCCXCII) containing this name, and two other usages which might relate to that document). Muntimer might be wrong (correct inflection table, but entry and head missing -us). Muntimirus, Muncimerus could exist too, but that's another thing.
    By the way: Muntimerus was created by who added a few more Slave names in -us.
  • Budimerus does exist. Created entry Budimero probably just is the dative/ablative of it. Budimer in the inflection section might be wrong.
  • Terpimerus could barely exist (the gen. Terpimeri can be found). Tripimirus might be inexistent.
- 12:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): @Lambiam Could you help attest some of these? I looked for Domosol and its variant Domosolus and couldn't find any hits outside of Wiktionary. Benwing2 (talk) 19:02, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
I deleted Muucimir as a misspelling. Benwing2 (talk) 19:54, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
If it helps any, these look like the work of BrunoMed (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks), who was blocked several times for mass-adding entries via scripts from word lists that they obviously hadn't checked. Look for repetition of the same wording in multiple entries, even when it doesn't make sense. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:41, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz Thanks. I think that Domosol comes from this list: [5] The text is in Croatian so I'm not really sure what it says but it's pretty questionable as an attestation so I'm going to delete it. Benwing2 (talk) 18:12, 4 August 2019 (UTC)


Japanese given name. —suzukaze (tc) 01:57, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

google:"実見子さん" produces more hits than 実見子の. Not many, but a few more. FWIW. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:14, 14 September 2017 (UTC)


Dialect word, barely used nowadays. ганарэя is common. Comes from dictionaries from 1995 [6] and 2001 [7], but I think that it is not widespread. --Jarash (talk) 12:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be widespread, and it doesn't matter if it's dialect, but Belarusian is a WT:WDL, so it does need three uses (not dictionary mentions) from different authors over the space of more than a year. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:49, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
User:Per utramque cavernam in this edit stated that RfV can be removed and in the description to this edit he provides a link to search on with three hits. The first search hit is a dictionary from 1995 by editors С.Прыхожы, А.Стасевіч, А.Юркін, А.Сітнік, І.Каваленка (S. Prykhozhy, A. Stasevich, A. Yurkin, A. Sitnik and I. Kavalenka). The second and third search hits are Russian-to-Belarusian and Belarusian-to-Russian dictionaries from 2001 by the same editor Віктар Варанец (English: Victor Varanets). This makes the total count of independent sources only to 2. --Jarash (talk) 12:34, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
It was a mistake of me to say that. As Mahagaja said above, dictionary mentions aren't enough; we need three real cites. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 12:55, 14 April 2018 (UTC)


Spanish. Or Portuguese? -WF

Our translations-section under adjective says that "adjectivo" is used in Portugal and "adjetivo" in Brazil. Spanish section looks more dubious. I could not find evidence of "adjectivo" meaning "procedural" in Spanish. Instead, a search for "regulaciones adjetivas" gives more than 300 hits. However, we don't have this sense listed under the Spanish entry for "adjetivo". --Hekaheka (talk) 01:16, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
The Portuguese entry is perfectly clear; "adjetivo" is now the proper term, and the historical explanation is spot-on. --Luisftd (talk) 21:54, 30 August 2017 (UTC)
Delete Spanish legal sense. Ultimateria (talk) 20:01, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
@OP: It was an RFV for Spanish (NadandoBot moved the tag to a worse place...)
@Ultimateria: This is RFV, not RFD. The only reason why "delete" would be ok, is the age of this thread - properly, it would already be RFV failed...
@Thread: How about a Spanish grammatical term? Cf.: [8] ("nombres adjectivos"; from 1876, though original might be from 16-18th century), [9] ("adjectivo" - elsewhere also "adjetivo"; 1799), [10] ("nombre adjectivo" - elsewhere also "adjetivo"; 1789), [11] (elsewhere also adjetivo; 1862 - originally from 18th century?), [12] (also once "el Nombre adje- [linebreak] tivo"; 1818 - originally older?), [13] (1750). [14] (1747) has "nombre adiectio", which might have been more common. -14:56, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

August 2017Edit

French demonymsEdit

User @SemperBlotto has been mass-importing entries from French Wiktionary with, by his own admission, no checking of whether these words are actually verifiable. I decided to check a few of these, and (unsurprisingly) have been unable to verify the vast majority of them, particularly the demonyms for tiny communes, hence bringing them here. Note that these all have entries on fr.wikt, where the criteria for eligibility are far less stringent than ours. The (non-exhaustive) list is as follows; for brevity I have not written here the inflected (feminine/plural) forms, but I have also not been able to verify those so they are inlcuded too:

I've just started with the ones beginning with Y to see how this goes down. BigDom 06:51, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

  • The history of this miniproject is as follows:- I noticed that a new user (Shiro1998 (talkcontribs)) was systematically added the plural forms of French nouns that we did not have (he seemed to be harvesting them from French Wiktionary). I didn't think this was very useful so started to add the missing singulars. While doing this I noticed that our French friends had very many French nouns (and adjectives &c) that we did not have - so started adding them. These included the above demonyms. My thinking went along the lines that, for a language such as French or Italian, we don't have to check the existance of all the conjugated forms of a verb, adjective etc., so I applied the same logic to the regularly-formed demonyms of French placenames. Some of these places are very small and the chances of the demonym appearing in print are slim - maybe in a local newspaper or a parish magazine, though these are unlikely to be archived. I assume that you are not complaining that any of these are actually incorrect, just that we can't prove that they are correct. My gut feeling is to keep them, and add any more that appear on the French Wiktionary or Wikipedia. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:22, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
  • That's pretty much it. I'm not saying these don't exist, but that they aren't used (in durably archived media, at least), which does seem to preclude them from having entries as per our inclusion criteria. I personally think we would be better served tidying up and citing our existing entries than creating unverifiable new ones, but if there's a consensus that such entries are allowed to remain, I'm not going to kick up a fuss. BigDom 10:54, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
These should definitely not be kept if they are not attested sufficiently. You did the right thing.__Gamren (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Delete if not sufficiently attested. – Barytonesis

September 2017Edit


@Mulder1982 Where did you encounter this?__Gamren (talk) 12:26, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't remember where I got it from originally but to confirm I googled it and found that it is the word for one hundred. A website called LearnGreenlandic even has hundredi as a synonym. Mulder1982 (talk) 13:52, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Links please? I agree that hundredi exists ([15], [16]), but I cannot find untriti, in its bare form, in the Atuagagdliutit archives, nor in Katersat gives untritilik ([17]), but that, I can also not find. However, there are lots of words like untritilinni, untritilippassuarni, untritilikkaat, untritilinnik etc. in the archive, so it cannot be complete rubbish. When supplied with some of these words, the Oqaasileriffik word analyser suggests untriteq as root, but that word gives no useful results at all.__Gamren (talk) 18:11, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Here's one link: untriti I'm trying to find more but I'm having the same "issue" that you do: that seems to be mainly found in compounds. It makes me wonder if it's possibly an from an older batch of loanwords, but this is just me speculating. Mulder1982 (talk) 19:40, 6 September 2017 (UTC)


RFV of the reading of えうま. @Fumiko Takesuzukaze (tc) 02:16, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

Euma and enma are listed in Daijirin as independent entries.

え-うま ヱ― 【絵馬】


え-んま ヱ― 【絵馬】



→えま(絵馬) ばかFumikotalk 08:47, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

What version of Daijirin are you using? I don't see euma at [18] (Daijirin + others) nor [19] (Daijirin 3 + Digital Daijisen + others).
Also, I kind of want to see citations of euma in real life, as per WT:ATTEST. —suzukaze (tc) 08:56, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

October 2017Edit


Rfv-sense: DVD player
Rfv-sense: sieve, colander

Not found in a tiny sample of online Spanish-English dictionaries/translators. - Amgine/ t·e 04:45, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

  • Sieve, colander is found in loads of dictionaries, so I removed the RFV form that. The sense for DVD player is something I couldn't find, but I did find "Pasador De Vhs A Dvd" for a kind of VHS-DVD converter. And added some more meanings while I was at it. I didn't realise Blotto was doing Spanish now. I see no reason why he shouldn't, but there was some minor cleanup to do afterward. --P5Nd2 (talk) 09:54, 17 October 2017 (UTC)


Rfv for senses "(Cantonese) to get wet by rain" and "(Cantonese) to drip" and pronunciation dap6. Dokurrat (talk) 02:25, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

dap6 is used for both these senses. The problem might be whether 溚 is used for dap6. The Representation of Cantonese with Chinese Characters cites Parker Po-fei Huang's Cantonese Dictionary: Cantonese-English, English-Cantonese for this. I also found it in 陈慧英's 广州话的“噉”和“咁”. Also see this discussion. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:58, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

November 2017Edit


Rfv for Cantonese. Dokurrat (talk) 03:33, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: The definitions come from the Unihan Database, which got their definitions from "The Representation of Cantonese with Chinese Characters". Here are the sources cited in the article:
  • lan2 (variant of 𨶙): 洪興仔 #21 殺入筲箕灣
  • lang1 (used in 𠮩𠹌/溜𠹌): Hong Kong Judiciary unpublished glossary #4; 粵語書寫問題研究項目
  • lang3 (used in 半𠹌𠼰): Hong Kong Judiciary unpublished glossary #4 (I would pronounce this as lang1.)
  • nang3 (join, link, connect): A Study of Cantonese Words (Zeng Zifan), 粵語書寫問題研究項目
— justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:04, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: So, If my understanding is right, all pronunciations have passed rfv; sense "variant of 𨶙" has passed rfv. And sense "uncommon, rare" is not verified (yet). Dokurrat (talk) 05:30, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
RFV is generally not used for pronunciations. "Variant of 𨶙" doesn't pass RFV technically; see WT:ATTEST. "Uncommon, rare" is the definition for 𠮩𠹌/溜𠹌; it's not used by itself, so there should be a {{zh-only}}. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:34, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


I'm not sure what to do with this. It appears in Norwegian Wiktionary, yet it's not a recognised suffix in the Bokmålsordboka or Nynorskordboka [20]. DonnanZ (talk) 21:19, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think -verk can be considered a suffix in Norwegian; it rather appears to be the second component in a compound? The fact that "verk" exists as a simplex in the same meaning as the proposed suffix seems to make it a suffixoid at best. Interestingly though, Wiktionary does have an entry for English -work. Morgengave (talk) 21:57, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes -work is a recognised suffix, whereas -works isn't, which is why it's now an RFD. Norwegian Bokmål verk (and Norwegian Nynorsk verk) is a word with two meanings and two genders, and I prefer to list derived terms there. DonnanZ (talk) 09:46, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
The senses given at verk already exist at verk. However, perhaps -verk has one or both of the senses of Danish -værk that DDO gives?
Also, DWDS gives, for German -werk: bezeichnet mehrere zusammengehörende oder gleichartige Gegenstände "denotes several objects that are similar or that belong together", which it calls "not productive".__Gamren (talk) 19:19, 3 November 2017 (UTC)
I just looked up “-værk” in Den Danske Ordbog. That's interesting. I wonder is it's an error of omission by the Norwegian dictionaries, who knows? I quite often find words in the DDO which don't appear in the Norwegian ones, yet they are definitely used in Norwegian. DonnanZ (talk) 19:41, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


google books:"繃床" -"棕绷床" -"棕繃床" yields very few results. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:12, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

There are 84,000 hits on Baidu for simplified 绷床. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:44, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
I think we should mark it as a misspelling of 蹦床. The latter is found in the basic dictionaries, such as 《现代汉语规范词典》, 《汉语大词典》, 《汉语大辞典》, 《现代汉语词典》, etc., and agrees with the colloquial synonym 蹦蹦床 (bèngbèngchuáng), whereas I can't find this in any Chinese-Chinese or reliable Chinese-English dictionary. Wyang (talk) 08:00, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
@Tooironic: Have you checked the searching results of 绷床 in Baidu? It seems to me that many of them are not used in sense trampoline. Dokurrat (talk) 10:12, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes, some refer to trampoline, others seem to be referring to a type of bed. Not sure about this one. ---> Tooironic (talk) 07:10, 9 November 2017 (UTC)




Both created by the same user. Caucă is mentioned in DEX as a variant of cauc: 1) a type of headwear used mainly by monks (from Turkish kavuk); or, 2) (archaic and regional) a wooden cup (from Latin *cau < cavus). Nowhere is the sense of "skull" mentioned. Scaucă is found only once on a nationalistic site trying to link the word scoică (< Slavic), through a regional form scaucă, to Dacian. --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Somewhat delayed discovery, but scălan is also incorrectly defined. I'm starting to smell the nationalistic linguistics oozing from these entries. Am I wrong @Redboywild, @Word dewd544? --Robbie SWE (talk) 20:04, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

You're not wrong. I'm not even familiar with some of these to be honest. Word dewd544 (talk) 03:39, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
scaucă is definitely not citable. The other two get a few hits on Google Books, but I'm not sure if the definitions are correct. The etymologies are pretty fishy too, only mentioning PIE and Albanian. The words seem legitimate, but they're a bit too rare to be included by our standards. (To be fair, there are some other archaic/regional words on Wiktionary that don't seem citable, for example vierșun.) Redboywild (talk) 17:38, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
That's what I suspected. I'll take a look and see what I can do to correct the definitions that exist. I'm considering deleting scaucă, though. --Robbie SWE (talk) 19:26, 14 November 2017 (UTC)



-- Dokurrat (talk) 19:07, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

, , , , , , , , , , , Edit

Chinese section. -- Dokurrat (talk) 10:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

I am who added these symbols. Have you ever seen them in Chinese newspapers? I have. They also used in some publishings. --Octahedron80 (talk) 03:25, 6 December 2017 (UTC)
@Octahedron80: I'm not sure if the weekday meanings of these symbols are inherent or just a SoP of ring and character. If these meanings have survived Rfv, we may need to add weekday senses to un-ringed characters too, I think. Dokurrat (talk) 22:25, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Usage of characters in brackets are attested [21][22]--Zcreator (talk) 21:29, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

湯桶読み & 重箱読みEdit

湯桶読み lists three-kanji compounds, not just two like the definition claims. It's not an ideal source, so please provide with better ones. ばかFumikotalk 13:00, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Daijirin specifically defines these reading patterns as applying to two-character compounds (「漢字二字でできている熟語」 → "compounds formed of two characters"). C.f. Daijirin entry for 湯桶読み, Daijirin entry for 重箱読み. However, Shogakukan adds a note that these labels can be used more broadly for any single compound term (for 重箱読み: 「また、広く、一語の漢字熟語を音訓まぜて読むことにもいう。」 → "Also, broadly, used to describe readings of single-term kanji compounds read with a mixture of on-kun.").
Notably, the example terms with three kanji listed in the JA WP articles for ja:w:湯桶読み and ja:w:重箱読み all appear to be instances of an existing two-kanji compound read with on or kun and either prefixed or suffixed with another term with the opposite reading pattern. Some cases are what I would consider a multi-word term, like 等幅フォント (tōhaba fonto, fixed-width font) or 手榴弾 (te ryūdan, hand grenade), and as multi-word terms, these would not be either 湯桶読み (yutōyomi) or 重箱読み (jūbakoyomi).
(The 等幅 (tōhaba, fixed-width) portion of 等幅フォント (tōhaba fonto, fixed-width font) is itself read with the 重箱読み (jūbakoyomi) pattern, but the entire term 等幅フォント (tōhaba fonto, fixed-width font) cannot be considered as either 湯桶読み (yutōyomi) or 重箱読み (jūbakoyomi) -- especially so given the inclusion of borrowed katakana term フォント (fonto, font), which by very definition cannot be either on or kun).
However, some of the example terms include rendaku, indicating that these three-kanji compounds could be considered as integral words and not multi-word terms, such as 冬景色 (fuyu-geshiki, winter view, winter scene) or 雪化粧 (yuki-geshō, snow covering; to be covered in snow), and as such, the reading patterns for these could be considered as 湯桶読み (yutōyomi) or 重箱読み (jūbakoyomi).
I will rework the 湯桶読み and 重箱読み entries to clarify the definitions and to add usage notes. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:39, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
  • First, most sources you frequently cite also make faulty claims, such as a Portuguese term as *Olanda, so I would take them with a huge grain of salt, and if I spoke Japanese, I would seek something, well, more linguistic than some dictionaries that might favor prescriptiveness over descriptiveness, or be outdated and therefore not reflect the true current status of the language (which they do seem like they do and are). Second, the way you divide words into smaller parts seems arbitrary; I've read a romanization guideline that would do very differently based on kanji count, but then with various exceptions. It doesn't help that Japanese doesn't use spaces to separate words, so it's very tricky to determine whether a morpheme is free or bound, whether it should be separated from other parts with spaces or not. I've been following a way that more or less resembles that guideline I've read (based on kanji count), factoring word-medially only processes such as rendaku or renjo. ばかFumikotalk 19:23, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
You asked for better sources than Wikipedia. I provided several widely published monolingual Japanese dictionaries: Shogakukan's Kokugo Dai Jiten, Daijirin, Daijisen, and Shinmeikai.
As you note, these sources sometimes include mistakes. Importantly, mistakes such as the derivation of Japanese オランダ (Oranda, Holland) arise from misunderstandings of non-Japanese languages. These sources are quite solid when it comes to describing the Japanese language itself.
By your own self-description, you don't read Japanese. I'm not sure how you'd be qualified to judge the quality of monolingual Japanese resources.
Regarding romanization and word chunking, you're correct that rendaku and renjō are both important factors to consider. However, in the absence of these, I'm not sure how kanji count would factor into things, unless one is combining a simple count of kanji with an awareness of the underlying vocabulary. Probably most kanji-spelled integral terms are two characters in length. However, some are three characters long (天婦羅 (tenpura, tempura)), and some are only one character long ( (me, eye)). In 手榴弾 (te ryūdan, hand grenade), for instance, it helps to know that (te, hand) is an independent term, and 榴弾 (ryūdan, explosive round, explosive shell) is an independent term, but that *手榴 (*teryū, literally hand + pomegranate) is not a term. With this knowledge, we can tell that this is a compound of (te) and 榴弾 (ryūdan). This compound exhibits no sandhi (rendaku or renjō), the two portions have different reading types, the two portions are also used as independent terms, and the semantics are also clear as the two concepts put together as “hand” + “explosive shell / grenade”. Given all of these factors, it makes sense to render this in romaji with the space as two separate terms.
If you have a link to that romanization guideline, I'd be interested in reading it. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:35, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Eirikr (except for the romaji part, I think, but I'm not sure how romaji is relevant to this RFV discussion). —suzukaze (tc) 01:53, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

December 2017Edit


Rfv-sense "(literally) a black-feathered bird". —suzukaze (tc) 03:15, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

FWIW, C.f. Daijisen and Daijirin entries, stating 「羽毛の黒い鳥」/「羽の黒い鳥」. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 05:06, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Keep. Attested:
  • 烏のようなる黒鳥が — 日本伝承童謡集成, vol. 2, 1974
  • 雪が降る中ヒマラヤ杉に黒鳥が止まり — 横浜市立大学論叢: 人文科学系列, vol. 40, 1989
  • ちょうどそこへ雌の黒鳥が飛んで来た。 — ゲセル・ハーン物語: モンゴル英雄叙事詩, 1993
TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:11, 13 September 2018 (UTC)


adjective: akimbo —suzukaze (tc) 23:34, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

Seems unlikely. google:"腕がアキンボ" gets one hit. google:"アキンボで" gets 2,070 ostensible hits, collapsing to 97 when paging through. However, the usage seems weird, and the meaning doesn't seem to be what our entry says. For example, one post is talking about a video game glitch, stating 「アキンボで走るときに」 (akinbo de hashiru toki ni, “when running akimbo”). That sounds super weird to me, and makes me think that this アキンボ is not just a borrowing from English akimbo. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:34, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
This Yahoo answer pretty much explains it. It is apparently a borrowing from English akimbo, but its usage seems to be limited in the context of FPS games. Searching "アキンボ" on Japanese Wikipedia also confirms this. Nardog (talk) 11:28, 10 December 2017 (UTC)
Thank you, Nardog. The usage does appear to be more along the lines of "with pistols in both hands at the ready", similar to 二丁拳銃 (nichō kenjū, literally “two pistols”). For others here, the Yahoo link above describes how the term appears to be purely a gaming term, and pretty much exclusive to the Call of Duty first-person-shooter game. The poster there theorizes that the term came into vogue because of the game, and from a misunderstanding that "hands on one's hips" was more about gunslingers ready to draw their guns, and from there to having pistols in both hands.
It's clear the アキンボ (akinbo) entry needs reworking. I have other duties keeping me busy today, and possibly for the rest of the week, so I won't be tackling that soon. :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:37, 12 December 2017 (UTC)


It seems to be only used as a prefix derived from German schwieger-, see sviger- (Bokmål) and sviger- (Nynorsk). DonnanZ (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Sviger isn't listed as a separate word in the DDO either, but looking at “svigerbarn” in Den Danske Ordbog it can be seen that it is effectively a prefix in Danish too. DonnanZ (talk) 19:27, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm certainly not familiar with sviger being used as a stand-alone word in Danish. DDO not listing Danish sviger- is an error of omission; it's still being expanded, and as of the November 10 update they have less than 100 K lemmas (still way ahead of us, though).__Gamren (talk) 19:33, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
@Gamren: Would svigerfamilie be used instead for in-laws? DonnanZ (talk) 10:17, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
Yep. I don't know a word for a single relative by marriage, though, except maybe indgift.__Gamren (talk) 16:13, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
I thought so, svigerfamilie is exactly the same in Norwegian, which is no great surprise. As for indgift, it also seems to mean intermarried (within the same family); that's how I interpret the verb indgifte too. DonnanZ (talk) 19:10, 16 December 2017 (UTC)


"Cantonese: virtuous". —suzukaze (tc) 00:09, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

This character has previously drawn my interest. The definition suggests this character may be - if it fits the attestation criteria - a (very unorthodox) variant of 賢. But I has little resources. Hope someone can investigate into this and figure out what's the story. Dokurrat (talk) 00:48, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
The definition is based on 汉语方言大词典, which cites 木鱼书《蔡伯喈琵琶记》: “蔡公醒后长吁气,叫声~媳好伤心。” I wonder if there are any other 木鱼书 that has this character. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:32, 17 December 2017 (UTC)



"home page". —suzukaze (tc) 20:48, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

ホームページ often connotes something different than "home page" as it can mean "web page" or "website", but 主ページ is not such a word. SoP at best, delete both as far as Japanese is concerned. Nardog (talk) 14:21, 19 December 2017 (UTC)



Russian given names. Tagged but not listed. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:03, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Nominated by User:Recruos. Шахла́ (Šaxlá) spelling is citeable. It's just a transliteration of a name. I suggested the nominator to withdraw RFV. Ша́хля (Šáxlja) is a variant, harder to cite and, IMHO, the stress is wrong but with foreign names, the stress is not well-established. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC)


Not a French word; always found italicised in historical discourse, as far as I can tell. A few examples: [23], [24], [25], [26], [27]. I'm looking for non-italicised instances. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:38, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam Hmm, do we not count italicized instances? I'm inclined to say we should, for the simple reason that a user might come across the word in a French context and want to know what it means. Sometimes italicization is used like quotes (e.g. "An oriented curve is said to be simple if such and such"), but these authors seem to italicize compulsorily, but otherwise use the word normally (and mostly as part of fixed expressions like ager vectigalis and ager publicus, but that's a different story). Are you worried about extreme duplication?__Gamren (talk) 19:51, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
@Gamren: I don't know; I think italicisation should count for something, but it's not necessarily prohibitive either. User:Sgconlaw has summed up my position pretty well here.
In the present case however, I've no doubt the French section should be deleted; and if non-italicised instances do exist (which remains to be seen), I'm not sure I would even want to count them as valid. The reader is reading a book about ancient Rome; don't you think he'll naturally assume there's some Latin in there? Won't he spontaneously look in a Latin dictionary rather than a French one? Imo, thinking otherwise is treating people like idiots, and it ultimately makes us look like fools. Per utramque cavernam 20:39, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

January 2018Edit

cordon d'un nouvieau-néEdit

"umbilical cord" in Norman; literally "cord of a newborn", SOP. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:43, 24 December 2017 (UTC)

If it's correct I'd keep it, in the same way as umbilical cord. DonnanZ (talk) 13:30, 2 January 2018 (UTC)
Another thing: if French is anything to go by, this doesn't look/sound natural at all. It just looks like a clumsy neologism. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:26, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Moved from RFD. All I can find is a mention here. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:31, 12 January 2018 (UTC) ([28], [29]) has it. It's just a mentioning and not durably archived, but could be the source for the entry. More entries and listed terms might be based on similar sources. preunelle dé l'yi from ([30], [31]) too? Printed dictionaries from ([32], [33], [34]) might have the terms too and might be durably archived, but still would only be mentionings and no usages. - 13:37, 25 January 2018 (UTC)


Is this productive? The five examples provided are direct borrowings from Greek, not Latin coinages. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

German terms ending with -thek should be from Latin and Greek or be rather recent creations like Videothek and Spielothek. The entries in Category:French words suffixed with -thèque might be rather recent creations too (though zoothèque might be older). Similary, Latin terms in -theca might be borrowings or be very recent formations difficult to attest as contemporary Latin is a LDL. (Finish Nuntii Latini, not durably archived) doesn't have anything ending in -theca or -thēca. In scientific Latin zootheca ([35] - cp. [36], [37], [38], [39], [40], Oxford Dictionaries: zootheca) can be found. Would this single word be enough to attest a Latin suffix? - 23:42, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
BTW: -isma. - 13:52, 18 April 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "plagiarism". —suzukaze (tc) 00:13, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

It's quite common to see コピペ in reference to a plagiarism that is literally copied from a source, and not uncommon in reference related phenomena such as Rogeting. Example: [41]. Cnilep (talk) 08:07, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

あき as reading of 商Edit

I know that read as しょう can mean “a business, a seller of goods”, and that the verb 商う (あきなう) means “to deal in, to sell”. But is the character ever read as あき, and does it then mean “the trade of goods”? Cnilep (talk) 07:56, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

There are 商人 (あきんど, あきうど, あきゅうど, あきびと, しょうにん; "merchant") and 商物 (あきもの, "goods"), but that's probably it.[42] In both words the character indeed seems to denote business or trade. Nardog (talk) 08:18, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
@Cnilep -- In 商う (akinau, to do business), the character covers the akina- portion. However, etymologically, the root is aki plus suffix -nau, and the root appears to be what is reflected in these other terms. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:42, 29 January 2018 (UTC)


suzukaze (tc) 18:55, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

For context: this is in reference to the w:Grey Cup in Canadian football.
While rare (as Japanese folks tend not to talk much about Canadian football), it's probably citable. C.f. google:"グレーカップ" "フットポール". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:05, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

February 2018Edit


Seems to be the wrong traditional form of 複審. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:26, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

There're many hits in Google Books.--Zcreator (talk) 01:44, 4 February 2018 (UTC)
@Zcreator: True. Do you think there are any differences between 復審 and 複審 in terms of meaning? (In Cantonese, they would be pronounced differently.) — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:55, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
That is the correct form, and 複審 is a wrong form, which must be verified ([43], [44]). — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:03, 12 June 2018 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: (This is a really late response.) I'm not sure what you're basing your claim on. Guoyu Cidian only has 複審. It seems like both 復審 and 複審 are valid from the google hits, but there might be some differences in meaning. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:27, 7 April 2019 (UTC)


First etymology. I find nothing about this even in WNT. —Rua (mew) 19:38, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

@Morgengave Do you remember where you found this word? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:14, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
R. Reinsma, Namen op de kaart: oorsprong van geografische namen in Nederland... (2009) mentions it as a "medieval word" found in placenames: "In de naam van de rivier de Merwede zitten de woorden meer (hier in de betekenis 'moerassig water') en wede, een middeleeuws woord voor 'bos' (verwant met woud). De Merwede moet dus lang geleden een kruising van een moeras en een bos zijn geweest, met de nadruk op bos." ("In the name of the river Merwede the words are meer (here in the meaning 'swampy water') and wede, a medieval word for 'forest' (akin to woud). The Merwede must have been a crossing of a swamp and a forest long ago, with the emphasis on forest."
I have not yet found any examples in running text. - -sche (discuss) 17:17, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I think this can be deleted now. This is the most promising result I found:
  • 1903, Tijdschrift van het Koninklijk Nederlandsch Aardrijkskundig Genootschap, page 181.
    [] de zonnige Zuidhellingen komen hierbij dus niet ter sprake, daar deze gebruikt worden voor nederzettingen, kultuur, weden enz. en het woud op de schaduwzijde gemakkelijker zijne klimatologische grens bereikt.
    (please add an English translation of this quote)
But I'm quite sure that it is a misspelling of weiden. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:27, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
The RFV template was removed in diff and the sense was converted to 'in toponyms'. This is OK by me if it's OK with Rua; we do have at least a few other such entries. I'll move it below the still-current senses, though. - -sche (discuss) 23:22, 5 January 2019 (UTC)
@Rua Can you confirm whether this resolves the RFV for you?


@Carl Francis marked this for speedy deletion, claiming that it is not actually Tagalog and not the correct spelling. I see use of this as a Filipino surname, and I'm not sure why @TagaSanPedroAko would be wrong about their native language, so I've brought it here. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:29, 20 February 2018 (UTC)


a It's Lumocso, not Lomocso and it's Cebuano. b The guy is just making stuff up as he goes along (see: Licuanan). c The guy is practically claiming every Filipino surname as Tagalog just because it's in (see: Alterado, Magdayao and Bayot). He even made up an etymology for Alterado, claiming it's Spanish when his main reference,, doesn't even have stats on Alterado in Spain.

@Carl Francis I have been out of WT for weeks, since I left for Canada, but I am pulled in to this thread by the arguments you point. So, let me answer your arguments you are pointing on this issue, since you pinged me in while I am away from WT:
  1. There is really a surname Lomocso (as I see it on one name I found in the news) , and Lumocso would be the main form, not the only correct form. Just mark Lomocso as an alternative form, and nothing else, so we do not inflame this argument.
  2. What do you mean of me creating out stuff? Yes, Licuanan also occur on the Tagalog regions because of migration, and that is not a reason to make it up as it is Tagalog. It is of Chinese origin, not Cebuano, and I have the sources to find their etymology. Don't push the argument they are Cebuano because it is common on its speakers. It is just associated with it, but not always, because there would be many families with that surname outside the Cebuano/Visayan regions, and not all of them would have their ancestors traced back to those.
  3. Claiming every surnames to be Tagalog is because they can be encountered in the Tagalog regions, particularly Metro Manila, and not just for because they are found in the Forebears surname database. I used Forebears for the stats for the surname as an approach I started after I found many Filipino surnames being listed in English already, through admin TheDaveRoss, who added many surnames in English based on 2010 US Census stats for a million surnames collected in the US. But, I now reduced my activity in adding surnames, and concentrated on the Tagalog vocabulary. And you are even claiming several Cebuano surnames of Spanish-language origin taken from the 1849 Catálog alfabético de apellidos to be native Cebuano. Alterado would have derived from Spanish (from a word that is not typically taken as a surname, but become so under the 1849 colonial edict on surnames for Filipinos), but not from Spain. You are free to remove the Tagalog entry of it, until I can prove it also exists in Tagalog. Please drop the argument that I mark every Filipino surname as Tagalog, as I changed my approach there: add only a Tagalog entry of a surname from any Philippine language if I can only prove it has also existed in the Tagalog regions, through migration of people who carried them. "Bayot" and "Magdayao" are, yes, Cebuano in origin, but that is not a reason to have it also in Tagalog.
I know you are a prolific contributor on Cebuano vocabulary, but let this thread be solved properly, without having to give further arguments that may worsen this..-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 00:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)


Listed in WWWJDIC (c.f., but I cannot find any evidence of use in Japanese. The purported Google hits that I looked into at google:"硇は" all appeared to be scannos. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:46, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

I can't imagine that a query for "硇は" would bring up anything since it's not a stand-alone word... Daijisen includes 硇砂 (oddly, a search for "硇砂" doesn't bring it up). —suzukaze (tc) 04:07, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
This webpage appears to be a digitalization of an old book that mentions 硇砂. —suzukaze (tc) 04:10, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Thank you suzukaze. I should have searched for google:"硇" "は" instead.
It appears that this character only shows up in Japanese in the term 硇砂 (dōsha, sal ammoniac, ammonium chloride), which appears to be an obsolete synonym for modern 塩化アンモニウム (enka anmoniumu).
I haven't seen any evidence for the nyō reading listed in WWWJDIC and KANJIDIC (see also Can anyone tell, is this a dictionary-only reading? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:38, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

March 2018Edit


Only found on Wiktionary. I can confirm this is used, but I don't have reliable sources to prove it, due to its nature being a physically handwritten abbreviation. ばかFumikotalk 03:59, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

This is extremely common... especially in handwritten name lists and notes. I would have taken plenty of pictures to show this usage if I knew this was to be nominated for RFV, but... Wyang (talk) 06:57, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
If there are difficulties in typesetting "g̃", finding cites might be hard.
It's not the same form, but I think this book uses "Ng.": Tên tác giả: Ng. [...]suzukaze (tc) 00:39, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
[...] của NG. VĂN TRUNGsuzukaze (tc) 00:45, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

April 2018Edit


As disscussed in Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Non-English#គូត, this gonna be some kind of slang. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:58, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Both User:Stephen G. Brown and myself confirmed that this term is in Tuttle Practical Cambodian Dictionary (page 14) but verifying this term seems difficult. Note the dictionary itself is not digitised. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:45, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I wonder if there are other words meaning bottom or relations that we could compare. --Octahedron80 (talk) 05:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
ថ្ពាល់គូថ (thpŏəl kuut) (buttocks, backside), គូថ (kuut) (buttocks; excrement), គូធ (kuut) (buttocks; excrement), គូទ (kuut) (buttocks). Why do you ask about words that mean "relations"? There are various words that mean "relations", but nothing to do with "bottom". —Stephen (Talk) 06:26, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I said if there are other language relations. --Octahedron80 (talk) 06:28, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you mean. Besides the above, there are also ខ្ទត (khtɔɔt) (to move the buttocks), ខ្ទីត (khtiit) (to have the buttocks protruding while walking), ខ្ទុត (khtut) (to move the buttocks), ខ្ទែត (khtɛɛt) (to have prominent buttocks), គគូទ (kɔkuut) (buttocks), ចំតិត (cɑmtət) (to stick the buttocks out), ចំទយ (châmtôy) (to stick the buttocks out), គ្រហីត (krɔhəyt) (face down with the bottom sticking up). —Stephen (Talk) 06:40, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I've added the etymology and alternative forms. Perhaps only one or two can be verified. According to Sealang dictionary, គូត (kuut), គូទ (kuut), គូធ (kuut) are all variants. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
@Octahedron80, Stephen G. Brown: The term is derived from Pali gūtha or Sanskrit गूथ (gūtha, feces), which makes sense. គូទ (kuut) gives lots of "bum" related images, plain Google hits and three Google books hits. I think we can make គូទ (kuut) the main entry and mark the others as verified. @Stephen, apparently English is Octahedron80's second language but I understand what he means. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:01, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
@Octahedron80: You have created គូថ (kuut). It's yet another alternative form of the same word. We just need to decide, which one should be the main form and which ones are alternative spellings. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:39, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
គូថ is the most correct spelling compared to Pali/Sanskrit consonant group [ត ទ ធ ន] = [t th d dh n]. Thai also has คูถ in one form only. You know that Khmer words from Pali/Sanskrit almost keep original consonants. Or else, គូត & គូថ may not relate each other; I have new theory that គូត may be borrowed from Thai ตูด but they don't like to pronounce t-. --Octahedron80 (talk) 21:26, 3 April 2018 (UTC)


This would-be word is sometimes said to be the longest Czech word. However, I wonder whether it is attested in use rather than via mere mentions, as required by WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:39, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Searches: google books:nejneobhospodařovávatelnější, google books:nejneobhospodařovávatelnějšími. There, I only find mentions, e.g. 'delší slovo v češtině je pouze „nejneobhospodařovávatelnějšími")'. --Dan Polansky (talk) 05:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Have you tried searching for PDFs on Google web search? Most of the hits don't look like durable archived sources at all though. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:36, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
I checked that search, and I see mentions, not uses, like "nejneobhospodařovávatelnější za české slovo neuznají". --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:29, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Neobhospodařovávatelný has a little use; it occurs, for example, several times here in some official document. Isn’t nejneobhospodařovávatelnější its regular superlative? Should the attestation criteria be applied to such forms? Guldrelokk (talk) 03:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

That's a useful find. Nonetheless, my position is that comparatives and superlatives are subject to attestation. There certainly isn't anything in WT:CFI to say otherwise. My more stringent position that each inflected form has to be attested found considerable resistance, but there was support for attestation of segments of inflected forms, such as the segment of all plurals. Thus, we should not claim a noun is countable unless that is attested, and we should not claim an adjective is comparable (gradable) unless that is attested. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:13, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Nix OlympicaEdit

Entered by an anon. No sources given. DonnanZ (talk) 11:47, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Google has English results, e.g. New Scientist 24 Feb 1972. There should be enough results for an English entry. Planeten Monde Ringsysteme (1984) has it in German which could make it Translingual. As for gender, if it were Latin it would be feminine (nix), but in German it might be feminine (nix) or masculine (Schnee, Berg, Vulkan). In the provided source, gender isn't visible but hidden in "Riesenvulkan Nix Olympica", "von Nix Olympica". For Translingual terms with Mons (Category:mul:Geography), it would be easier. Though, considering other languages as well (English pretty much not having gender, French only having masculine and feminine, Danish only having common (masculine and feminine merged into one) and neutrum), it might make more sense to not have such terms as Translingual, or to have some note somewhere... - 16:06, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Five references can be found in the Wikipedia article on Olympus Mons, which may be enough to verify this. DonnanZ (talk) 19:30, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
You've got to be kidding. This is such a famous name and feature. If you don't recognize this name, I hazard to guess you don't recognize anything in astronomy.
-- 05:29, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Some of these sources might have mentionings (like "it was called X", "it was named X", "old name: X") and some might not be durably archived. Mentionings would be ok for Wikipedia and also for some Wiktionaries but not for the English one (WT:CFI). Nontheless it's attestable as Translingual, there are at least three English usages (google books, "Nix Olympica", "of Nix Olympica", ...) and three German usages (also see below).
[62]/[63], [64], [65], [66] have it as masculine; [67], [68] as feminine. google gives another masculine result for "der nix olympica" but I can't see it. This might lead to a gender problem, if it stays "Translingual"... - 00:28, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
It's been used for over 100 years, and was originally coined in Italian by an Italian astronomer. If you look at maps of Mars from the 19th and 20th century, you'll find it on them (along with canals) Anything published before 1980 is clearly not an electronic-only document (such as the scans of 1800s sources listed in multiple languages) thus was published on paper. As it became obsolete before 1980, it will not be an ephemeral electronic source term. -- 08:04, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
Entry has three usages since quite a long time, so it's attested, and this discussion can be closed already. --Pitza Guy (talk) 08:16, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

May 2018Edit


A hot word, tagged as being older than a year, with no definition. - -sche (discuss) 18:46, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

I remember seeing a report that it became popular to use the manji (卍) in Japan's youth recently. There's even a manji gesture which consists of crossing your arms in some manner. The included Wikipedia article says it's a symbol for hype and basically means 'awesome', but I can't read the details. First reference (Kotobank) on Wikipedia says it's a compound of 'まじ' (really) and '卍' (cool) and got some media attention. I think was used as an acceptable source for verification here before, but I don't know our policies. I added a definition at . Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 08:21, 12 May 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "a Pocket Monster". —Suzukaze-c 17:09, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand, what's in question, this is clearly in widespread use. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 11:45, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
@Korn If so, please add some cites so the RFV can be closed. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 15:31, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
It's literally the name of the franchise, it's on every single product. Again, I don't understand what exactly is in question about it that has to be verified by the cites. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 06:45, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
It's clearly in widespread use, but what about WT:CFI#Fictional universes/Wiktionary:CFI#Brand names? --Brown*Toad (talk) 08:58, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


RFV for reading utsuto. Included in ja.wiktionary. —Suzukaze-c 04:07, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

I sure can't find any support for this reading.
I find this spelling in both Weblio (in various sources) and [ Kotobank (also multiple sources), but other than the JA Wiktionary included in Weblio's hits, no one lists any reading except のし (noshi).
Weblio has nothing at all for うつと (utsuto), and only the unrelated adverb for うっと (utto). Likewise, Kotobank has nothing for うつと (utsuto) and only the adverb for うっと (utto).
The JA Wikipedia article only lists the のし (noshi) reading for Japanese, mentioning:


Note that this says 「熨斗」は, indicating that this is (the Japanese rendering of) the Chinese term. Compare modern Min Nan reading ut-táu. I suspect that the JA Wiktionary editor was confused by this, as also suggested by their apparent misspelling of the kana -- the JA WP says ウット (utto), whereas the JA WT says ウツト (utsuto), and the editor of our Japaneses entry must have followed suit.
If we can find any evidence for this term actually used in JA with the utto reading, we should clarify the sense, as this seems restricted to JA contexts talking about ZH culture and language, where this reading refers to the iron used to press clothing. Our senses for the noshi reading are lacking, both at the Japanese 熨斗 entry and at the linked English noshi entry. Modern JA noshi is either short for 火熨斗 (hinoshi, traditional clothing iron, literally fire + pressing, smoothing), or refers to a kind of origami, sometimes even just a printed picture or stamp of the origami pattern, or in extremely abbreviated instances even just the two hiragana spelling out のし (noshi), as explained in more detail at the JA WP article. The dried abalone is generally omitted in modern usage, which isn't clear from either our JA or EN entries. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:17, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

June 2018Edit



See Wiktionary:Tea room/2018/June#Abu_(ISO:ado)_lemmas: it seems that these are not in fact the words for "bird and "ear" in either of the two languages which are most commonly called Abu, and it's not clear what language, if any, they are words (for "bird" and "ear") in. - -sche (discuss) 03:55, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

I think it's almost right. The Abu language of Papua New Guinea (also called Adjora, Adjoria, Auwa, Azao, Sabu). See rosettaproject. I can't read most of the file types available, but I can read part of ado.txt:
bird: ungkara (uŋkara)
bone: gaar (gaːr)
breast: oncë (oncÉ™)
ear: kur
father: cas
he/she: më (mÉ™)
mouth: kamaŋka (kamangku)
thou: uɲi
tree: kɨ (kï) (kɨ = kɨ ?)
we: aɲi (a-nyi) (aɲi = aɲi ?)
you: u-nyi —Stephen (Talk) 06:31, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
As for the 'uglyness', setting the encoding to unicode might give the correct forms: uŋkara, gaːr, oncə, më & mə, kamaŋka, uɲi, kɨ & kï, aɲi. - 03:30, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, but this reference about the Abu of New Guinea has very different words. (And note that the "bird" word the Rosetta Project has is ungkara, not our ungaraka.) - -sche (discuss) 23:28, 5 January 2019 (UTC)

Vietnamese Edit

I find it odd that Vietnamese writers would make use of a specifically Japanese phonetic glyph with a value of nu as the typographic equivalent of the " ditto mark.

I suspect that the intended glyph is not the Japanese katakana character (nu, Unicode hex value 30CC), but rather the graphically similar Chinese (and thus Vietnamese chữ Nôm) character (again, as well, Unicode hex value 53C8). In fact, the Japanese phonetic katakana character originally derived from a shorthand version of (used phonetically to represent nu), which includes the glyph as its right-hand portion.

Our entry at cites a website that appears to be volunteer-based data of uncertain provenance. Meanwhile, the Vietnamese Nom Preservation Foundation's online lookup tool has no entry for ヌ (Ux30CC), but it does have an entry for 又 (Ux53C8). Could someone check other sources and confirm?

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:53, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

The website in question says has a pronunciation of lại, and you can find several instances of pronounced lại on the same site. It is very likely to be a confusion of the two by their shapes. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:18, 23 June 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the additional information. The website is the one cited at the ヌ#Vietnamese entry, and the data there is of unclear provenance. I cannot tell if this is a reliable and trustworthy source, or instead something that might be error-prone in a manner similar to (That might be what you were suggesting, that is error-prone?)
If, ultimately, the Ux30CC glyph is actually in use in electronic Vietnamese chữ Nôm texts, then we should probably have an entry. If instead electronic texts only use Ux53C8, ヌ#Vietnamese should probably go away.
Are there any other electronic Vietnamese sources, or even ideally published works, that use glyph (Ux30CC) interchangeably with (Ux53C8)? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:16, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
It is a reduced form of ("again"), used as an iteration mark in Vietnamese Chu Nom, e.g. 喑ヌ (ầm ầm), 猪ヌ (chưa chưa), 赤ヌ (xích xích), 紅ヌ (hồng hồng). Lại means “again”. Listing it on is probably using the wrong codepoint, but then I'm not sure where this should belong. Wyang (talk) 22:34, 27 June 2018 (UTC)
They seem to use U+30CC and U+31F4 interchangeably, which suggests there is no officially assigned code point. I prefer moving the information to with a soft redirect at , until the official code point is given in Unicode. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 02:27, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Even's main entry is the U+314F one (), while their U+30CC entry is pretty minimal.
In the absence of any Vietnamese editor input, I second Shinji's suggestion. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:42, 30 July 2018 (UTC)


Spanish for "model (person)", from English. Ultimateria (talk) 13:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

The query "es un model" yields a lot of Spanish Google Groups results, fwiw. Someone'd have to take a closer look to verify if it refers to the sense we have now or to something else. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 15:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(as opposed to complex kanji) simple". —Suzukaze-c 21:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I'm not aware of such a sense, nor are Obunsha, Kenkyusha, or Shogakukan dictionaries. Possibly a misunderstanding of (something like) this from 大辞泉: 「ひらがな(平仮名)。仮名の一。漢字の草体から作られた草仮名(そうがな)をさらに簡略化したもの。」 (Hiragana. A type of kana. Derived from sōgana cursive-style kanji and further simplified.) Cnilep (talk) 03:46, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
The strange thing is that it was added here by @Bendono, who seems to have made a lot of great edits. —Suzukaze-c 04:00, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I wrote that. No offense intended, but you need better dictionaries. Those single volume dictionaries are aimed at everyday life and leave out far more than they actually include. You can confirm this sense in 日本国語大辞典--which even includes citations--that I will quote:
*洒落本・金錦三調伝(1783)「いやならいやとひらかなで」 Bendono (talk) 05:28, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
Given the quotes and usage, I might suggest an edit to the gloss given of just “simple”: perhaps “simple terms” would better convey the sense? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:09, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr So does this pass RFV? I can't judge if the citations are valid; if they are, they should be at the entry. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 15:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
@Mnemosientje, I'll be honest and say I haven't done a thorough survey of historical works to double-check. However, cursorily, I'd judge that this passes RFV, albeit as a rare sense that may be archaic or obsolete in modern usage. The entry excerpted by Bendono above is partially viewable online here (I say "partially" as the second quote in the entry dated to 1783 isn't included in the Kotobank version, probably due to Bendono having a later edition of the dictionary). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:45, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

July 2018Edit


Rfv-sense "adverb: weekly" —Suzukaze-c 19:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm stuck on the opposite thought -- how is this a "noun"? Same for マンスリー (mansurī). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:15, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
As a noun, it often refers to a periodical published once a week: 朝日ウィークリー, 日経ウィークリー, 毎日ウィークリー (oxymoron notwithstanding) etc. I think it's also used as a truncated form of ウィークリー・マンション, a room rented by the week.
"Adverb" is such a heterodox category that I'm having trouble thinking of a clear test for Japanese adverb-ness. Some sources that use standard European labels (e.g. Breen) call ウィークリー an adverb, but I'm not sure if that's because it's borrowed from an English adverb, or based on some analysis of Japanese.
I did find this, which feels adverb-y:
ウィークリーにするという前提 (ぜんてい)でスタートせよと。
Wīkurī ni suru toiu zentei de sutāto seyo to.
We should start with the assumption that it is weekly.
I'm not 100% convinced it's an adverb, but neither am I convinced it is not. Cnilep (talk) 02:15, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Doesn't an adverb in Japanese mean that it's used independently without a particle, like 結局? Nardog (talk) 07:06, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Clearly it is only a noun in Japanese. You can say ウィークリー行う but never *ウィークリー行う. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 03:16, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I see some usage as a -na adjective. It looks like the grammar for this term may currently be in flux. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 23:43, 23 July 2018 (UTC)


Only 64 hits on Google, I never heard this word before. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 01:35, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

@Morgengave, who made the entry. I can find some use on one Belgian blog, but otherwise only scannos. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:21, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
While not common, there seems to be a slowly increasing use of the word:
  • (1998, NRC Handelsblad): Nu vier regels uit de Ballade van de dames uit vroeger tijd met de bekende slotregel, die trouwens bij Chaucer al te lezen viel over de sneeuwen van gisterjaar. [69]
  • (2015, Nieuwpoort Nieuws): Foto’s Van gisterjaar: Marktstraat in Nieuwpoort en het trieste waargebeurde verhaal van Peter ‘ Petje de Kortn’ Provoost. [70]
  • (2018, Autofans press release): Aan de éne kant heb je het Opel van gisterjaar met GM-invloeden, aan de andere kant het Opel van morgen onder Franse PSA-vleugels. [71] Morgengave (talk) 13:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)


It's in Katersat (which refers to Erik Fleischer and Ordbogeraq), and in this, but not in DAKA, and I can't find usages. However, DAKA has nassuk, which I can attest here (DAKA defines it as gevir, which means "pair of antlers" as well as tak, but the news article clearly uses it in the "single antler" sense). I have refrained from relying on the first two sources exclusively, because there seem to be many unattested words, like these words for different variants of red. I'm not confident they're reliable, even though they come from respectable sources.__Gamren (talk) 12:20, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and this probably doesn't matter, but this book talks of an Inupiaq word aaġiaq (valley, pass), and this book refers to someone named Aagiaq.__Gamren (talk) 12:25, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I believe mentions are enough to attest LDLs, no? — Mnemosientje (t · c) 14:44, 11 April 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "a just or proper reason".

Apparently this rfv tag was added by User:Poketalker in May 2018, but discussion was not started here. (Apologies if I missed the discussion or misread the history.) I'm not familiar with such a sense, and couldn't readily find it in a quick skim of my dictionary. Cnilep (talk) 01:58, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for putting this up; it's exclusive to Daijirin:
Roughly "the correct/right method or reason". Do you or anyone else have a better translation? ~ POKéTalker) 03:59, 20 July 2018 (UTC)
The KDJ has the following two senses under the kyō reading, from which I could see the development of the sense in Daijirin:

3 一般的に、教訓、教化など教えを記した書。また、単に書物。

Generally, a text describing a moral, enlightenment, or teaching. Or, any document.

4 (経文を読む意から)仏事を行なうこと。経供養をすること。

(From the sense of reading the sutras) Holding a Buddhist service. Performing Buddhist rites.

Under the kei reading then, the KDJ lists a very similar sense to the one in Daijirin:

1 正しいすじみち。正しい道理。のり。つね。

Correct logic. Correct reasoning. Rule. Custom.

Sense 4.1 at Chinese isn't too far off. And considering the underlying original sense of this character, warp threads, as in something that runs consistently and regularly through, the "correct reason" sense is not unreasonable (ha!). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:40, 20 July 2018 (UTC)

ᡩᠣᡵᡤᡳ ᠪᠠᡳᡨᠠ ᠪᡝ ᡠᡥᡝᡵᡳ ᡴᠠᡩᠠᠯᠠᡵᠠ ᠶᠠᠮᡠᠨEdit

I'm wondering about this word's existence. 2602:252:D2B:3AA0:C073:2829:9837:FE1B 20:22, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

See w:Imperial Household Department. Also 內務府. Google depends on OCS for Manchu script, so you'll probably have to search using the transliteration. You could probably find it in Paul Georg von Mollendorf's "Essay on Manchu Literature" in Journal of China Branch of R. A. S., Shanghai, vol. xxiv (1890), p. 1-45. —Stephen (Talk) 00:42, 24 July 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Short for 芝士蛋糕 (cheesecake). @Tooironic — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 08:25, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

I've seen it twice in menus for cafes in mainland China, but I don't have any citations for this usage. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:35, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
@Tooironic: Do you remember if they had some qualifier in front of it, and could you give an example of how it's used? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 16:29, 23 July 2018 (UTC)
I just remember them being listed as [某某]芝士 without the 蛋糕 after it. Sorry I don't have anything concrete. I won't object if it gets deleted. ---> Tooironic (talk) 16:34, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Currently, the first result for "芝士" in Google News is 颠覆北海道双层芝士的新晋网红 (for me at least). —Suzukaze-c 05:31, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

August 2018Edit


Only dictionary cites on Google Books. Ultimateria (talk) 02:05, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ultimateria These don't seem to exactly fit the current definition, but here:

  1. 1785, Gaspar de Molina y Saldívar, Reflexiones sobre la arquitectura, ornato y musica del templo, page 326:
    Llaman acastillar colocar la cañonería de modo, que los cañones mas largos ocupen el medio, y disminuyan hácia los extremos.
    (please add an English translation of this quote)
  2. 1839, Félix González de León, Noticia historica del origen de los nombres de las calles de esta M.N.M.L.Y.M.H. ciudad de Sevilla:
    En esta época cada familia se acastillaba en sus casas y aun en los templos (como ya he referido en otros lugares de esta obra) ó cuyo fin fabricaban estas torres, y las guarnecian de armas.
    (please add an English translation of this quote)
  3. 1942, Luis Enrique Azarola Gil, Apellidos de la patria vieja, page 176:
    Se acastilló en las virtudes y costumbres tradicionales, y fundó su hogar en unión de doña Pilar Carro, hija del capitán Juan Carro y de doña Rosa Costales, con descendencia: []
    (please add an English translation of this quote)

DTLHS (talk) 02:28, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I've added the cites under a new line with {{rfdef}} for now. Ultimateria (talk) 01:17, 9 August 2018 (UTC)


Not in the two online dictionaries; will see if any NDL books attest this. ~ POKéTalker) 01:11, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

It looks to me like SOP as (nan, what, combining form) + 曜日 (yōbi, day of the week).
I see from the entry history that Shinji created the entry. Shinji, can you make a case for this being a lexical term and not just a sum of its parts? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:07, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
So when does 何 take its combining form? 21:44, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Interrogative prefix  (なん) (nan-, what number) replaces only numerals. Compare 何人 (なんにん) (nannin, how many people) and 何人 (なにじん) (nanijin, what nationality), or 何色 (なんしょく) (nanshoku, how many colors) and 何色 (なにいろ) (naniiro, what color). 何曜日 (なんようび) (nan'yōbi, which day of week) is the only exception where the prefix doesn’t replace a numeral, probably created by analogy with 何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu, which month) and 何日 (なんにち) (nannichi, which day). The grammatically regular form would be なようび just like 何用 (なによう) (naniyō, for what purpose) and 何用品 (なにようひん) (naniyōhin, what product category). なようび is therefore a lexicalized term one has to memorize. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 22:46, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
Should that be RFD, rather than RFV? It's definitely citable.
Shinji, do 何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu, which month) and 何日 (なんにち) (nannichi, which day) merit an entry? Are the words?
FWIW, compare with the Chinese 星期幾星期几 (xīngqījǐ, “which day of the week (question)”), formed by 星期 (xīngqī, “week”) and (, “what, which (of number)”). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:01, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu, which month) and 何日 (なんにち) (nannichi, which day) are clearly words, but some might say they are sums of parts because they are regular. Note that their literal translations are “what number-th month” and “what number-th day” and you can use 何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu) only for modern months. Imagine these dialogs:
  •  (むかし)如月 (きさらぎ) (いま)何月 (なんがつ)?
    2月 (にがつ)だよ。
    Mukashi no kisaragi wa ima no nangatsu?
    Nigatsu da yo.
    Which (what number-th) month of today corresponds the ancient kisaragi?
    February (2nd month).
  •  (いま)2月 (にがつ) (むかし)何月 (なんがつ)?
     (むかし)数字 (すうじ)じゃないよ、名前 (なまえ)だよ。
    Ima no nigatsu wa mukashi no nangatsu?
    Mukashi wa sūji ja nai yo, namae da yo.
    Which (what number-th) ancient month corresponds today’s February (2nd month)?
    In ancient times they didn’t use numbers, they used names.
As for Chinese, 星期幾星期几 (xīngqījǐ) seems regular because they say 星期一 (xīngqīyī), 星期二 (xīngqī'èr), etc. but it merits an entry. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:30, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: Thanks. You may have noticed, I went ahead and created 何月 (なんがつ) (nangatsu) and 何日 (なんにち) (nannichi).
As for 星期幾星期几 (xīngqījǐ), it wasn't a question, I used it as an example. To me, this question word seems quite irregular. It's asking about days of the week, not week numbers, following the pattern for making 6 out of 7 days of the week. However, you can't form the same question words with 禮拜礼拜 (lǐbài) or (zhōu), which are used to make days of the week. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:25, 30 August 2018 (UTC)


Attempted removal of {{hot word}} without any citations, let alone spanning a year. DCDuring (talk) 18:00, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

  • This word was seen in the category Hot words older than a year, so I removed that template from the word's page, as it was written on the Category's page that this category should be empty.
    • Also, this word came into common usage when Indian PM announced demonetization of 500 & 1000 rupee currency notes, on 8th Nov 2016. So, yes, it has been over a year.
    • Nonetheless, the word was always in existence, as earlier too demonetization had taken place in 1970s.
    • Entire news is filled with this word. You just have to Google नोटबंदी, and you'll thousands and thousands of news articles on this word, both in domestic and international media. Most recent example I can quote now is this BBC Hindi report here dated 30th August 2018.
    • Also on there is Hindi Wikipedia [page] on that incident, in which this word comes frequently.

September 2018Edit


While Citations:Cimbrice & Talk:Cimbrice#meaning show that the term has a 2nd sense, I don't see any evidence that it refers to Cimbrians as modern German people.
On the contrary, I see reasons why it should be something else:

  • de:w:Zimbrisch#Dokumentation: "1602 [...] ältestes Buch in zimbrischer Sprache" & "machte der deutsche Kosmograph Anton Friedrich Büsching 1769 die Zimbern im deutschen Sprachraum bekannt" (Der Teutschen Sprach Ehren-Krantz from 1644 is older than the latter)
  • Abraham Peter Cronholm's Forn-nordiska minnen has: "Francico mich, mik, mih, vel Cimbrico mig [...] Cambrico þig, vel Franco-Theotisco thich, thigh, thih" & "sumus, estis, sunt, Cimbrice erum, erud, eru". "Francico mich, mik, mih" looks like it refers to German (OHG, OLG, maybe including OD) - and mig and þig as well es erum, erud, eru (also cp. eruð and vera) could refer to Icelandic or some other Norse German language.
    PS: Cronholm's is based on Georgius Hickesius' older work ([72]).
  • "Danis Cymbrisq; [Danis Cymbrisque] est Blydemanet [...]" and -maanet (from Der Teutschen Sprach Ehren-Krantz) could refer to some Norse German language (cp. måned: "From Old Danish .. ma(a)net ..."), LG (Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/mēnōþs#Descendants: "Middle Low German: mānet"), Low or South Low Franconian ("Middle Dutch: mānet, maent").

- 21:57, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Incidentally, as long as we're having an RFV, it'd be good/necessary to have some examples of the first sense (relating to the Cimbri) in use as opposed to mentions in dictionaries. - -sche (discuss) 00:31, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Aha, with the help of Antiquitatum Danicarum sermones XVL, which seems to use Cimbrica and Cimbria, etc, in senses that refers to the same group as the 1620, 1705 and other citations of Cimbrice, I may have worked it out: the book has sections on Cimbria & Scandinavia populosissime terra and other things and contains such lines as "Omnibus notissimum est totum Germanica faecundissimae tractum praecipue geminas illas aqvilonis, maximasq.; peninsulas, Cimbriam & Scandinaviam innumeris & fortissimis hominibus, omni exuberasse tempore." This suggests that it may be referring to the people who inhabit the Cimbric/Cimbrian Peninsula (Jutland), i.e. the Jutes or the Danes. (Although the Cimbri are said to be from Jutland, the 1620 and 1705 uses are providing clearly Germanic words not ascribable to the Cimbri.) - -sche (discuss) 00:48, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Incidentally, google books:"Cimbrians" "Jutland" and related searches suggest that Cimbrian may be citable with this sense in English. - -sche (discuss) 00:52, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
Georges: "Adv. Cimbricē, zimbrisch, loqui, Ps. Quint. decl. 3, 13."
L&S: "Adv.: Cimbrĭcē, in the manner of the Cimbrians: loqui, Quint. Decl. 3, 13."
Similar in many other dictionaries (e.g. Scheller-Lünemann-Georges, Dutch Georges-Schneither, Freund, Frenchy Freund, English Freund-Riddle, English Freund-Andrews, Leverett, White). For the source ([Pseudo-]Quintilianus, Declamationes) compare w:Declamation#History and w:Quintilian#Works.
In an older edition from 1549 and in an edition from 1905 (US): "... an Cimbrice loquendum sit."
Here it's quoted without caps.
Another usage with should refer to the ancient German people: [73].
BTW: Some other usages of Cimbrica, Cimbricae, Cimbrici (Cimbricus): by Paul Fleming - 08:23, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the original second sense, "in the manner or language of the Cimbrians, a Germanic people who inhabit northern Italy and speak a Bavarian language", and added a sense for the Cimbrian-Peninsula-related citations above. It's possible that if there aren't more citations, the senses should be merged, although if there were enough citations to keep them separate that would been useful. - -sche (discuss) 07:32, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Antique Latin sense is now properly cited: Citations:Cimbrice#pertaining to the Cimbri.
  • [74]: "JÓTSKR, adj., Cimbricus, Danicus (Jótar): jótskir menn Cimbri, Ý. 35. [cp. jyde and it's etymology]. The source also has "Cimbr. = Cimbrice." and uses it at least once (mis-OCR-ed as "Сітbr": [75]). It does at least hint that Cimbric- could refer the people of Jutland.
    That could also fit with the 1705 source (Hickesius). While gnog might be non-Norse-German in origin, it could be a borrowing from German (be it High or Low German), or alternatively Cimbric could be more northern Low German (as spoken in Northern Schleswig) or some unprecise umbrella-term. The 1620 source has Cimbric Tormaanet [= March], Faremaanet [= April], Schlachtemaanet [= November]. Other sources for the name for April: [76]: "alt Dänisch, Faremaanet", [77] "die Dänen Faremaanet", [78] which gives 2 sources for it, "Hadr. jurii nomenclator" and "Halthauss, in Cal." (Christianus Gottlob Haltausius, Calendarium medii aevi praecipue germanicum in quo [...], "Aprilis ... Cymbrice Faremaanet ... Dns Fabricius in Menolog. p. 144 ait: Faremanet ..." [79] ~> Jo. Albertus Fabricius, Menologium, sive Libellus de Mensibus, [...], "Danorum. ... 4. Aprilis Faremanet ..." [80]). So it could be from a language of the people of Jutland too.
  • Younger senses, if there are multiple senses (like maybe Jutlandish, Danish, Northern Low German), maybe should be merged, but it shouldn't be merged with the older sense.
- 20:54, 14 September 2018 (UTC)


Suzukaze-c 06:45, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Does this suffice? google books:"ウォールフラワー"
‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:56, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

dame d'attendreEdit

@Amgine Where did you find this? Sounds very wrong. Per utramque cavernam 09:51, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

As a French collocation it is ungrammatical. French terms for lady-in-waiting are dame (or demoiselle) de compagnie, or, historically, dame/demoiselle d’honneur.  --Lambiam 12:35, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
@Lambiam: Yes. I suspect it's used in English texts only (if it's used at all), as double entendre. Per utramque cavernam 12:36, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

実相 -- Jitsusō readingEdit

An anon has apparently been going through ENAMDICT and adding entries here. ENAMDICT is available via Jim Breen's WWWJDIC, which is a decent source, but I'm not sure of the data provenance.

Can anyone confirm that this reading Jitsusō actually exists in the wild? Outside of ENAMDICT and one other online JA-JA name dictionary, I can only find the expected Jissō. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:47, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Here are four online dictionaries giving the romanization Jitsusou (next to Jissou): [81], [82], [83], [84]. Not exactly in the wild, though.  --Lambiam 00:27, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the legwork. It looks like this might be a dictionary-only reading. Going through the links,
  1. is notable for its unreliability, and lists JMnedict among its sources, which I understand sources from ENAMDICT, the same as Breen's website.
  2. The entry at Weblio for the Jitsusō reading is also from JMnedict, which I understand sources from ENAMDICT, the same as Breen's website.
  3. Kanshūdō doesn't have any source information.
  4. Oriental Outpost sources from EDICT, whence also ENAMDICT.
Curious if anyone bumps into someone with this name. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:07, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
I get several Californian hits for different but apparently related people with the middle name “Jitsuso” combined with the surname “Yamada”.  --Lambiam 08:41, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
Thank you, that's useful suggestive evidence, but we're lacking any kanji in these cases, so it's hard to confirm if this reading matches this spelling. Unfortunately, expanding the search to include the kanji results in zero hits. :(
An interesting possibility is that this is an instance of "Ellis Island-ic", where a name has undergone transformation during the process of immigration to the US. In older kana orthographies, the small "tsu" character used to indicate geminate consonants (as in the expected kana spelling じっそう (jissō) for this kanji compound) was not always written smaller. I wonder if it was reinterpreted as regular (tsu) instead, but perhaps only outside of Japan? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:07, 12 September 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense of "a singer who sings in Esperanto but doesn't speak Esperanto". I have never heard this word used like this before. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 14:00, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

I decided to look in the page history and see who added this sense, and I was surprised to discover that it was me! I guess I must have had some reason to think it existed, but I have no memory of adding it or ever encountering this sense before. A few minutes of searching just now only turned up results about birds, but a more thorough search might be able to find something. —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:12, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
I found this Wikipedia article and it is also listed in a terminology of Bertilo. But is it really attested or is this an invention of Bertilo? Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 16:52, 23 September 2018 (UTC)


This "combining form" is only found in one word (xochihcualli), and it's not clear that it should be divided into xochih-cualli rather than xoch-ihcualli. --Lvovmauro (talk) 11:09, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

The mentioned entry at xochihcualli gives cualli as "something good" and offers tlacualli as a comparison. However, the latter entry's etymology, itself a bit of a mess, derives cualli as cua (to eat) + -lli (presumably a nominalizing suffix, though we have no entry for this). Meanwhile, the etym at derived term xochihcualcuahuitl (edible fruit tree) glosses xochihcualli as "edible fruit"", apparently corroborating the "eat" sense underlying cualli.
I know very little about Nahuatl, but simply applying logic to what we have with these entries suggests that what we have is a dog's breakfast in need of cleanup. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:00, 26 September 2018 (UTC)



Tagged with "Unsourced and possibly unattested material." but not listed. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:44, 28 September 2018 (UTC)

If the first name is Uzbek, it should be spelled Şahlo, as in the name of the Uzbeki singer Şahlo Salayeva.
Unlike in Yañalif, the proper Uzbek spelling is indeed “Shahlo”. Some examples: Shahlo Ahmedova, Shahlo Rustamova, Shahlo Turdikulova.  --Lambiam 19:38, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
The Azeri Wikpedia lists several women whose given name is Şəhla: Şəhla Əliqızı, Şəhla Bürcəliyeva, Şəhla Nəzərova, Şəhla Səmədova (professor).  --Lambiam 08:04, 8 October 2018 (UTC)


i kind of botchd it. reverted my own edits. Can someone fix the template. it's showing disiplinaha which is not a conjugation of Tagalog. 10:47, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are saying. disiplinaha is not marked as Tagalog, it is marked as Cebuano. What template are you referring to? —Stephen (Talk) 08:16, 30 September 2018 (UTC)
I think this about the conjugation of disiplinahin. The request is not really an rfv.  --Lambiam 03:12, 1 October 2018 (UTC)
I mean the inflection table on disiplinahin. 07:55, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Regarding the inflection table, the form ending with -a (or -ha) is a dialectal form (you should watch out for the notes about each inflection if you are working on Tagalog verbs). I am a native speaker of Tagalog, but I haven't heard of it. That inflection is of Tagalog dialects that preserved archaic forms, most notably the Marinduque dialect. And again, this is not clearly about the Tagalog, and it is not for verification. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 21:59, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

October 2018Edit


I don't know where the guy who defined the word got that definition. everyone in the philippines know that a dilawan is a supporter of the previous administration. must be misleading people. the creator must be ignorant or a dilawan himself. for etymology the word is from dilaw (yellow} the color of the previous administration's party.—This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

I'm not confident enough in Tagalog to fix that entry, but I added an English one. --Lvovmauro (talk) 09:42, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
Bad definition. Fixed. —Stephen (Talk) 02:25, 4 October 2018 (UTC)
I created the entry and I got the definition by analyzing its use in quotes from Google Books. But for the IP who placed the entry here, it is also bad to attack someone who created it personally. Calling me "ignorant" is considered a personal attack, but if you are correct that "dilawan" is a member of the opposition, I agree.--TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 20:27, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
Does it actually mean "anyone of the opposition"? Or do supporters of Duterte call their opponents "dilawan" because they're accusing them of being liberals/supporting Aquino/etc? Like, Muslims get accused of being terrorists a lot, that doesn't mean the word "terrorist" now has "Muslim" as a definition. --Lvovmauro (talk) 02:29, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

confirmed dilawan. did you see him change the definition. dilawans have reached wiktionary.—This unsigned comment was added by (talk).

@ Please stop that politically polarized statements. This is not a way to channel politicized statements, and remember to be civil (please read your talk page first). I changed it out of agreement with Lvovmauro. I just responded to that comment, and calling me "dilawan" is an outright personal attack. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 18:29, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Italian contributions by

I'm just going to put it out there – a large portion of these contributions and translations look like SoP to me and many don't even seem to be idiomatic. Can anyone chime in cause (talk) is currently flooding Wiktionary with new but sketchy entries. --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:26, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

It concerns an IP range, actually: Special:Contributions/ Many of the added entries surely seem SOP. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 20:03, 13 October 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "kanji: mango", and possibly related content under 檨#Readings. —Suzukaze-c 02:37, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

If I understand this blogger correctly, they think 檨仔 is specifically Taiwanese. And this news article on Taiwanese mangos also uses that character combination; the character is not used stand-alone. This lends support to the hypothesis that in Japanese this character does not have the sense “mango”.  --Lambiam 09:45, 19 October 2018 (UTC)


(Indonesian term) - The Indonesian Wikipedia link doesn't use the term. SemperBlotto (talk) 13:40, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

Some web pages in Malay using the term in their titles: [85], [86], [87]. I don’t know if these pages are specifically in Indonesian Malay.  --Lambiam 09:52, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Those first two links are written in Indonesian. The first link use Indonesian cyber guidance. The second link is a online mass media in Cirebon, Indonesia. --Xbypass (talk) 16:55, 22 October 2018 (UTC)
This article using the term is from CNN Indonesia. And this FAQ in Indonesian also mentions mecin / micin as alternative names for MSG.  --Lambiam 10:03, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
Those links are written in Indonesian. --Xbypass (talk) 16:55, 22 October 2018 (UTC)


I see this as a Spanish loan from orgullo, but I wonder if it exists in Tagalog. Some stubborn IP adding words from the Tagalog Pinoy Dictionary added this word without even thinking if it is used, such as in cites. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 14:22, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

I already found one cite of its usage in Tagalog, and it is a very obvious loanword from Spanish. --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 02:06, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


Need to verify all its senses. Some IP is trying to redefine this using the one in the Tagalog Pinoy Dictionary, where copying definitions from it constitutes a copyright violation. -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (Teochew) eyeball. Is this used outside of 目睭? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:01, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

RFV failed. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 21:51, 15 October 2019 (UTC)

jouer avec ses armesEdit

Not an idiom in French, as far as I know, so I'd like some proof that it's lexicalised. Uses like this are few and far between, and nothing else than literary fancies, imo. Per utramque cavernam 17:59, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

I see enough Google book hits plus many more Google news hits to sustain the idea that this is idiomatic. It would appear that the verb is extracted from an idiomatic phrase or saying chacun joue avec ses armes.  --Lambiam 08:24, 28 October 2018 (UTC)

I think it's clearly lexicalized. Lmaltier (talk) 21:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

November 2018Edit


Seems suspicious. (Entry's author's source was German Wiktionary which gave German Wikipedia as source which didn't give any source for this and as most prominent source gave the English .) -- 21:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

I linked it to OMG as the main article and added quotes there. --Lvovmauro (talk) 00:00, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
That are quotes for OMG, not for omg. -- 04:35, 7 November 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(~幕府) (historical) Tokugawa shogunate". Can 德川 really be used by itself in this way? —Suzukaze-c 21:44, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

Here's a quote where I suppose you could say 德川 is short for 德川幕府:
德川的和平盛世與儒學的興起,大大改變軍事思想及其運用。[88] In fact, that quote is from a book titled 易學對德川日本的影響, and you could argue that 德川 in the title is also short for "Tokugawa shogunate". It certainly doesn't refer to a Korean city or the generic surname Tokugawa. Richwarm88 (talk) 00:10, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
See [89] for more examples, like in the sentence 第一阶段是德川初期(1603—1691)。 The time period makes it clear that 德川 refers to the shogunate, not any specific person.  --Lambiam 13:45, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

mamni takáEdit

It wouldn't surprise me if this spelling was used at some point, but I can't find evidence of it. --Lvovmauro (talk) 07:32, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo, what was your source? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:23, 29 November 2018 (UTC)


(Italian compound form) Grammatically correct but I'm struggling to find any actual usage. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:41, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

The word siilo have the same use of the word mangialo and of the pages of conjugated forms of verbs and inflected/declinated forms of nouns and adjectives as completion of the related term pages. DelvecchioSimone12 5 96 (talk) 11:51, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
The terms siilo, mangialo, dillo, dimmelo, dammelo, dallo, fallo, fammelo and similar terms (both only when used with verbal meanings) in italian are formed using the same derivation rule. DelvecchioSimone12 5 96 (talk) 17:56, 24 November 2018 (UTC)


"Russian person" has to be capitalized. Non capitalized: type of bread (dialect from Podhale). Abraham (talk) 09:13, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

@Abraham: Perhaps slang and derogatory terms are not necessarily capitalised? In any case, you could use {{alternative case form of|pl|Moskal}}. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:23, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: No. I have verified it in several dictionaries. Moskal only capitalized if about the person. Greetings. Abraham (talk) 08:37, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
@Abraham: OK, thanks. I see that occasionally it's in lower case in Google books but that's uncommon. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:42, 30 November 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for the specific epithet. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:31, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Aspelta psitta is a rotifer, and Psittocythere psitta is a crayfish. Either is specifically not a parrot.  --Lambiam 15:20, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
I expect that there is some parrot-like feature of the organisms with that epithet. I can usually find images that support that kind of thing. DCDuring (talk) 02:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

konstrui kastelojn en aeroEdit

Esperanto. I can only find one attestation for this. In Zamenhof's Proverbaro, but seldom used. @Mx. Granger ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:57, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I can't find anything besides the Proverbaro and the citation in the entry. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
I found two examples with the definite article, but not sure if they count for the same entry. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 13:04, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
@פֿינצטערניש Opinions differ, but I prefer slightly inconsistent citations over no entry at all. So I'm inclined to say this passes, though perhaps the entry should be moved. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:10, 28 November 2018 (UTC)


Volapük for despotically. —Granger (talk · contribs) 04:08, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Nothing found on WS. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:15, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
It's simply the regular adverbial form of the adjective "däspotik", so nothing wrong with it. Nüm bal (talk) 20:08, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

December 2018Edit


Rfv-sense  (ジャン) (jan, mahjong). —Suzukaze-c 04:20, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

It is clear that 雀(ジャン) is used to derive terms related to mahjong, such as 雀荘 (ジャンそう) (jansō) and 雀卓 (ジャンたく) (jantaku) while 雀(ジャン) is not meaning mahjong. It is not a noun. --Naggy Nagumo (talk) 11:39, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (Cantonese) paternal aunt (father's elder sister). The spelling could also be 大姑姐. See the talk page for a discussion. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:54, 3 December 2018 (UTC)


It it a valid Acadian spelling? If not, it should be deleted, because it's an uncommon misspelling in standard French. Per utramque cavernam 19:02, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

It is listed at the French Wiktionnaire. There are many GBS hits, but the ones I checked were scannos or else more likely misspellings than honest attestations.  --Lambiam 21:37, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
As a Picard word, not a French word. Same: I've found some scannos, maybe a few misspellings, but no genuine attestations. Per utramque cavernam 21:47, 24 December 2018 (UTC)


Spanish, noun sense "townhouse". I see a small handful of cites that are true nouns, but none that really indicate what type of building it is. Ultimateria (talk) 04:05, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

The Diccionario de la lengua española, entry adosado, -da states specifically that the adjective is also used as a masculine noun, but is mum about feminine use. In any case, as an adjective, used in a combination like casa adosada, it refers to a row house, one of several identical houses attached to each other at the sides. Used as a noun, provided it refers to a building and not something entirely different, it can hardly mean something else, given how language works. The Diccionario also states that the adjective is especially applied to a chalé, but one (or at least I) wouldn’t consider a typical townhouse a cottage or chalet. An image search for chalé adosado shows plenty of rows of townhouses, though.  --Lambiam 10:41, 12 December 2018 (UTC)
From French adosser (dos): to back up against. —Stephen (Talk) 11:22, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

gefährlich wird es, wenn die Dummen fleißig werdenEdit

German. It seems to be more often mentioned than used. The non-literal definition is potentially too narrow. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:56, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

The “literal” translation is already not very literal. My attempt: “It gets dangerous when dumb people begin to work hard.” What a weird interpretation, though, not just narrow. I think the aphorism is actually meant to be taken rather literally. I see it often attributed to Erich Kästner, but never with a concrete source, so this may be another made-up attribution that is blindly copied. In any case, I don’t think we have even a single one of the over 200 aphorisms by GBS; why should we have this one?  --Lambiam 18:58, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
True, or "when the dumb become industrious". I agree about aphorisms; it can always be RFD'd if the RFV passes. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:31, 17 December 2018 (UTC)


Which of these Lezgi spellings are actually attested, and which are made up? @Vahagn Petrosyan, AtitarevΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:14, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge: I have moved it to тӏархьун (ṭarxun). Lezgi is poorly documented, so they shouldn't follow the same verification rules. The lower case palochka ӏ is rarely used in print. The form тIархьун (tIarxun) with the upper case Latin "I" instead of the palochka can be found in "Русско-лезгинский словарь" (Russian-Lezgi dictionary) here. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:04, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: I can attest the modern Cyrillic and the older Cyrillic spellings, but I do not have resources on the other periods of Lezgi. --Vahag (talk) 11:15, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
Thanks to both of you. Anatoli, I agree that we can use a different character for the palochka and still consider that attested, but I don't think we should keep an Arabic-script entry if it isn't in a dictionary somewhere or otherwise attested. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:12, 15 December 2018 (UTC)
I believe that тӏархьун (ṭarxun) is incorrect, and it should be moved back to тIархьун (tIarxun). The "lowercase palochka" was invented by Unicode, because they didn't like the idea of having an "uppercase" character with no corresponding lowercase. Really the "uppercase" palochka is caseless, and the "lowercase" is not actually used in the orthography of any language. --Lvovmauro (talk) 00:28, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
@Lvovmauro: So, you're suggesting moving back to тIархьун (tIarxun) with the Latin letter I ("i") because you don't like the use of the lower case palochka? It doesn't even transliterate correctly because it's the wrong alphabet. The upper case palochka is Ӏ. You must mean moving to тӀархьун (ṭarxun). --02:51, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
ϕ ... ɸ ... φ ... Φ ... ϕ ... ... ... ... ... ... ... oops! I mean fie on all these confusing Unicode variants! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:36, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
I thought I checked that, but yes, I meant тӀархьун (ṭarxun). --Lvovmauro (talk) 06:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
It has been generally agreed on, in my observation, to use the standard spellings - i.e. using lower and upper case palochkas based on capitalisation rules, even if that's not widely used and spellings can't be verified using these glyphs. E.g. if a Chechen sentence starts with ӏаса (ʿasa, stick) (lower case ӏ), then it should spell with a capital palochka: Ӏаса (ʿasa, stick) (upper case Ӏ). It applies not only to the lower case but to the upper case palochka (formerly generic and the only oen available). The problem with the languages using palochka is that it's hard to verify anything. They don't have very high level of digitisation and Internet penetration. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:35, 17 December 2018 (UTC)
Lezgi is not Chechen, so they may have different orthographic rules. Can a Lezgi word even start with Ӏ?  --Lambiam 09:49, 19 December 2018 (UTC)
@Lambiam: Sorry to take a long time to get back. The distinction between capital and lower case various uses. It doesn't matter if words don't start with some letters in some languages. E.g. Russian words never start with "Ь" or "Ъ" but these capital letters exist and have their usage. Try copying ӏаса (lower case palochka) and Ӏаса (upper case palochka) into a Word document, select a large font and select a serif font, e.g. Times New Roman, you will see that letters even look different. I insist we should normalise the spellings. Languages using palochka can now be seen mostly in wikiprojects, anyway, especially Wikipedia and we should show them the right way. We can have a vote on this. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:57, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
I do not believe we (the English Wiktionary) have a mission to show the Lezgin Wikipedia the right way. I do not think we are qualified to determine what is the right way for Lezgi.  --Lambiam 13:58, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
I may add that the Lezgi Gazet uses the word чӀал in their masthead, spelled with a long palochka. Apparently they haven’t seen the light either yet. I see a long road of missionary labour ahead for you!  --Lambiam 14:18, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Chuvash and Ossetian people substitute their Cyrillic letters with Roman lookalikes and North Caucasians use wrong palochkas or Roman letters. The entire Chuvash Wikipedia uses Roman "ă" and "ĕ" instead of their correct Cyrillic forms. There are many reasons for that (lack of proper computer support, lack of knowledge or education, habits, etc.). It's a common problem with some minority languages, even bigger than we have at hand but dictionaries shouldn't necessary use incorrect spellings. We can use redirects from other spellings to standard spellings. No need for your sarcasm, BTW. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:33, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
What source or authority says that using lower case palochka is part of the standard spelling? --Lvovmauro (talk) 07:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
The Unicode has created and it's used. I can see that lower case palochka is actually used кицӏ (kic̣, dog) has an article in Lezgi Wikipedia. There are many hits but not very consistent and Roman substitutes and upper case palochka still very common. We had numerous discussions on the topic and it's a general agreement with some weak opposition every now and again. One of the latest discussion with a some decisions made was Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2018/December#Any_use_for_a_"rare_character"_index?. Just search for "palochka" in the "Wiktionary" name space. Perhaps the glyph usage should be outside the RFV discussions. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:57, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


Old French. I don't have a physical dictionary with me here, but a quick search makes it seem that other spellings like mangeoire are attested, but this is not. The etymology at English manger will have to be amended if this fails. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:47, 18 December 2018 (UTC)


Esperanto for "werewolf", it seems like it is mostly used figuratively for certain players in the game Werewolves. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:32, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

I find a Usenet cite and a book cite. Hathitrust has a hit on page 173 of Esperanto. v.1. Nederlandse Esperantisten-Vereniging La Estonto Estas Nia, but doesn't show context.--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:29, 20 December 2018 (UTC)


Only 1 result at google books (which might be a mentioning), 1 in google groups (dialectal, for example with i = I, di = you (sg., obj.)). --Brown*Toad (talk) 11:39, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

Here is one in de.sci.philosophie. The same one? I don’t get the intention of the “dialectal” parenthesis.  --Lambiam 19:15, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
google groups gave me this by opa2013 from 05.12.13: "Schau Gscheidwaschl, a nett?s G?schenk hab i f?r di!" (maybe this link works...). My guess would be that it's supposed to be: "Schau Gscheidwaschl, a nett's G'schenk hab i für di!". Anyway, i (= ich, I) and di (= dich, you [singular, object]) show that it's not normal High German but dialectal (Bavarian?). The parenthesis after you specifiy which you it is. --Brown*Toad (talk) 19:36, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
It is the same message I saw. Nominative i and accusative di fit with Bavarian.  --Lambiam 23:35, 24 December 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be a problem with the encoding of that text: on my computer (Mac: both Firefox 64 and Safari 11.1.2), I'm seeing placeholders for umlauted vowels, apostrophes, and other "non-ASCII" characters. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:07, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
This is obviously a difference of interpretation as to what language this is- Wiktionary doesn't require languages to have an army and a navy...
Move to Bavarian and look for references that meet CFI for that Limited-documented language. Pinging @-sche as the one who understands best how Wiktionary treats "German dialects". Chuck Entz (talk) 17:54, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz (1): I've the same problem - it looks like an error on google's/usenet's part and not on our part.
@Chuck Entz (3): google groups or usenet is an accepted source as for wt's LDL requirements. Thus the single quote could be enough to attest a Bavarian term. However, the text encoding problem could be an attestation problem. Is malformatted text acceptable? Can someone restore the text (there's a suggestion above, can someone verify or correct it)? Can someone translate it (suggestion: "Look #, a nice present have I for you" or "Look #, I have a nice present for you")? -- 23:20, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
It may have been entered in German by someone who genuinely saw it in German — I can find non-durable websites where it occurs in German [de] text — but if that's the only citation, then it seems it only meets CFI as Bavarian (although deciding between Bavarian-regional de and bar from only a very short text can be, well, like trying to decide if a single sentence is Scottish English or Scots). Since the malformatting isn't in the specific word we're trying to attest, and doesn't render the citation ambiguous or unintelligible as to meaning or language, it's tolerable, though obviously suboptimal. I would quote it with the errors intact, but we could provide a 'normalization' afterwards in brackets or something. Providing a translation is fine. - -sche (discuss) 03:51, 26 December 2018 (UTC)
Of course it should be quoted with the errors, as only that would give a correct quote. Bavarian i, di, für, hab, á, schau, Gschenk can be attested by other sources. [90] & [91] are dialectal (Bavarian?) and have nett's. - 10:00, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

huile de reinsEdit

RFVing an old entry of mine. I don't think it's CFI-compliant. Per utramque cavernam 21:41, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

This web page gives a citation from an 1887 book. Other hits I saw were either mentions like in dictionaries, or uses in blogs.  --Lambiam 23:22, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

er ist was er isstEdit

GBS only gives me a few results with comma and ß: "Er ist, was er ißt." (twice), "... daß er ist, was er ißt, ...". -- 09:23, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

du bist was du isst in you are what you eatEdit

Standard form has comma as "du bist, was du ißt" or "Du bist, was Du ißt" ("du bist, was du isst" or "Du bist, was Du isst"). -- 09:35, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

This is originally an aphorism by Ludwig Feuerbach: “der Mensch ist, was er ißt.” I doubt that it has attained lexical status.
"man ist, was man ißt" ("man ist, was man isst") and "du/Du bist, was du/Du ißt" with comma should be common, and might count as proverbs which wt includes too. -- 22:53, 25 December 2018 (UTC)
"man ist, was man ißt/isst" is the more common form, easily attested in book and news sources. I think it also offers a better correspondence with English you are what you eat, in which the pronoun you is used in the impersonal sense of anyone.  --Lambiam 21:11, 26 December 2018 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Luojiang (a community in Luojiang, Quanzhou, Fujian, China). Is this referring to the town in Hui'an, Quanzhou? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I did some investigation on Google Maps. To answer your question, yes; what makes this slightly confusing, though, is that there are two distinct communities in Hui'an called "Luoyang". The first is probably what you're looking for; the second is spelled with different characters ( instead of ).
There does exist a place in Luojiang called "Luoyang", however. It's not a community like the entry claims, but a river. It uses the same characters as the first mentioned Hui'an community and the entry. You can decide what action to take about this on the entry, you're welcome. Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:27, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Pinging @LlywelynII who added this. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:24, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

selamün aleikümEdit

Marked for deletion with the comment "Not Turkish. No referances." — surjection?〉 10:38, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

The common Turkish version and spelling of this originally Islamic greeting, which however has largely lost its religious connotation, is selam aleykum, the standard response to which is ve aleykum selam. You also hear the variant aleyküm with a front vowel. When seriously meant to be Islamic, however, Turks will use something closer to the Arabic version, but adapted to Turkish phonology. This may be spelled in different ways, such as – I think most commonly – selamın aleyküm. The spelling “selâmün aleyküm” feels like a transliteration of Ottoman Turkish but can be attested; in fact, it is the spelling found at the Turkish Wikipedia. Turkish spelling is highly phonetic and a spelling with ei is definitely nonstandard; this would correspond to a two-syllable /e.i/ instead of the correct one-syllable /ej/.  --Lambiam 15:11, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

January 2019Edit


Can we verify the specific sense Antares? While Antares is a bright star (the literal meaning of 明星), I see no evidence this is used in Japanese to designate specifically that star.  --Lambiam 10:32, 5 January 2019 (UTC)




Rfv-sense "Southern Min" (etc.) —Suzukaze-c 02:24, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Duh. Those are obviously well-attested phrases; there are even whole Wikipedia articles about the regions! Johnny Shiz (talk) 22:53, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: This is rfv-sense for the senses referring to the topolects (varieties of Min Chinese), not for those referring to the regions (parts of Fujian), which are not rfv-ed. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:59, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: The topolect senses are well-attested. What else are they called? What are you talking about? Johnny Shiz (talk) 00:32, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: They're usually called 閩南話闽南话 (mǐnnánhuà), not just 閩南闽南 (mǐnnán). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:00, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: 閩南 is a very common abbreviation for 閩南話; even being used in Wiktionary, etc. Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:23, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: Saying that something is "very common" doesn't help. Use in Wiktionary is not a valid argument for common use. (I'm not even sure where it's used in Wiktionary as 閩南 instead of 閩南話 or 閩南語). We need actual evidence here at RFV. See WT:CFI. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 21:26, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
RFV failed, and unverified sources have been removed accordingly. I've seen "Minnan", etc. used as English names for the dialects, particularly on Wiktionary itself. But it's not in Chinese; in Chinese, languages are always followed by the character 話 or 語: for example, French is 法語. Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:34, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: I think this has been closed too hastily. (While it has been sitting here for a month, it seems like we generally let it sit a bit longer.) I have found some possible attestations:
@Justinrleung: The thing is, we don't just say 法 for 法語, etc. Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:58, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: There are exceptions to rules. Also 法 can be used to mean "French" in something like 英法辭典. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:00, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: Got it. About the original three phrases, found enough attestations yet? Johnny Shiz (talk) 22:02, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

zebro (Ido)Edit

Ido for "zebra". I could find only one durable cite so far (in Mondolinguo). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:45, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

It is cited in: L.H. Dyer: Ido-English Dictionary: Z, Marcel Pesch: Radikaro Idala, p. 296, Fernando Zangoni: Dizionario Italiano-Ido, "zebra", p. 286.--Edfyr (talk) 15:31, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Entries in dictionaries aren't usually acceptable as cites, unless they're using the word in a definition, not defining it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:40, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Hm, it seems that there is one such use in Pesch: "quago: (zool.) Speco di zebro, nun desaparinta de la terglobo, qua vivis en la sub-regioni di Afrika: [] ". [93] ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:31, 14 March 2019 (UTC)


Spanish, "hamiform, hooklike". Ultimateria (talk) 01:52, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

aganchado, aganchar are pretty rare in Spanish. I think enganchar, enganchado are synonyms. I think hooked is a good translation of aganchado, in addition to installed and, figuratively, "caused to be interested". I was not familiar with the English word hamiform and I could not find an example of aganchado online with that sense, but I think it makes sense. —Stephen (Talk) 00:15, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
This seems to get a fair amount of Google Books results. Should it be marked as "rare"? — Mnemosientje (t · c) 09:38, 21 March 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: foo dog. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:47, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yes, indeed. See "Common Knowledge of Chinese History, 2012". Johnny Shiz (talk) 22:55, 2 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: I don't think I can find that book. Remember verification at Wiktionary requires actual uses, so citing a book without a quotation would not help. See WT:CFI. Anyway, I found two quotations elsewhere, so we just need one more to have this sense verified. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:57, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
The foo dog is 獅子, so reversing the translation direction seems valid. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 20:51, 24 April 2019 (UTC)


Related rfv-sense. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:59, 21 January 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Which sense? Johnny Shiz (talk) 00:49, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: The same sense as above: foo dog. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:01, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Closed. Johnny Shiz (talk) 21:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Open???Suzukaze-c 21:54, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Category:Esperanto text messaging slangEdit

Proposed in 2009 on this blog. Everything in this category seems to me like uncitable, except for "sal", "bv", "dk", "kvf" and "mdr". I highly doubt that we can cite pa3no, 4talo, -J, -L, -N, -X, G-, K-, M-, X-, L, M, N, V, X and Ŝ. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 18:05, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything for "pa3no" and its inflected forms on Usenet or Google. That someone would use a letter like "Ŝ" in text messaging slang is also implausible. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:22, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

February 2019Edit


Rfv-sense for "smooth" definition -- it comes from the Unihan database but I'm not sure if it's applicable or not. Bumm13 (talk) 00:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

@Bumm13: The "smooth" sense isn't in Unihan (anymore). Johnny Shiz has deleted the sense in May. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:02, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Esperanto 'ali-' correlativesEdit

alial, aliam, aliel, alies, aliom, aliu

Aliu and alies can probably be cited; alies already seems to have two citations. The rest I'm not sure of. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 17:14, 9 February 2019 (UTC) wikified פֿינצטערניש (talk) 17:15, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Esperanto. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 17:11, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


I couldn't find the reading of (geum) on the dictionaries. Found two webcites mentioned,[94][95] it seems not to be a part of Modern Korean but Idu (吏讀) of the ancient times. I don't know how to describe this reading. --荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 01:26, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

@荒巻モロゾフ: There are many kind of theory, and it can largely divided into "금" (geum) and "곰" (gom) depending on reading ways of Idu. #1, #2 p.s. I don't suggest to see Namuwiki, because it is probably inaccurate. Thanks. --Garam (talk) 16:17, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (sometimes) the Sichuanese dialect of Standard (Mandarin) Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:22, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

(@DaviddwdSuzukaze-c 07:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC))


Any sources for this in Min Nan? @Yoxem — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 17:56, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

See: ("lô-tsip-tik [註:邏輯的]來分析,無 kâng 信仰之間對頭前 tsiah-ê 主題 ê 講法,當然是互相 tshiâng-póng,sûi 人有 sûi 人 ê 解說。"), and (……1 ê高醫師講kap另外1 ê會議chhiâng-póng bē-tàng來;……) @Justinrleung--Yoxem (talk) 18:06, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

@Yoxem: Thanks for these, but they only show that it should be "chhiâng-póng". Are there any sources that would suggest that it's read with a 35 tone for the first syllable? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 23:43, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
Please see the Hokkien noon news of Taiwan PTS: ([around 0'9"]: ..., iah m̄-koh sî-kan sī ū chhia̋ng-póng--tio̍h ...). Due to the lack of a mark for the 9th tone (high-rising tone) in traditional POJ, some writers uses the 5th tone mark as a alternative notation of the counterpart of 9th tone. @Justinrleung--Yoxem (talk) 10:04, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

als de paus een geus wordtEdit

Dutch, any hits found in books or news media are mentions. Nothing on Usenet. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:20, 18 February 2019 (UTC)


Dutch. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:53, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

A small contribution on this newspaper page (see the top right corner) suggests that this form existed in Middle Dutch.  --Lambiam 21:12, 18 February 2019 (UTC)
That text returns verbatim in the book van Aalmoes tot Zwijntjesjager by P[ieter] H[endrik] Schröder (Erven Thomas Rap, 1980) (on p. 31; see this pdf), a selection from his (anonymous) contributions on etymology to the Haarlems Dagblad, written while Schröder was secretary-general of the Maatschappij tot Nut van 't Algemeen.  --Lambiam 22:31, 19 February 2019 (UTC)


RFV of all the definitions under ロリ#Etymology 2. —Suzukaze-c 04:28, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

Sense "person with the Lolita complex" removed by User:UhhMaybe. —Suzukaze-c 02:26, 19 July 2019 (UTC)


Dutch initialism for "Algemeen Zuid-Nederlands". Most of the durable results are about a hospital instead. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:58, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

The Grote van Dale uses this as an abbreviation, and so do some publications of EVD. Does that count? (It is not in running text.) One indisputable cite is here. The initialism is also used in this PhD thesis, which I believe is durably archived. I also see it in an MA thesis from the University of Gothenburg (but written in Dutch!); this may also count as durable.  --Lambiam 23:05, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
Added some citations. -- Curious (talk) 13:05, 13 October 2019 (UTC)


Dutch, defined as "an ass-kisser; a suck-up". I think that a meaning "testicle licker" or "homosexual" might be citable, but this probably isn't. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:04, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

I think it is used in the contested sense in this article. In general, finding attestations in durably archived media is not easy for vulgar terms.  --Lambiam 22:58, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
I think that in this case it is an indication that the sense is simply uncommon. Dozens if not hundreds of Dutch vulgarities are very easy to cite in print media (google books:kankerhoer google books:paardenlul google books:kutjebef), though it is true some terms are avoided. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:44, 28 February 2019 (UTC)


Any evidence for this? @Mar vin kaiser — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:00, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Oh, I made that entry when 簡若 was the main entry, and not 敢若 for the entry 敢若是. Though technically, 簡若是 does appear in the example in p.384 of 闽南方言大词典 as "~是". You could delete it if you want, since the entry is now transferred. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 06:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
@Mar vin kaiser: Yeah, that's kind of tricky, but it's probably not good evidence for it anyway. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 06:10, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

March 2019Edit


Not as a noun in Lewis & Short or Gaffiot.  --Lambiam 14:43, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

.. or Georges. Which wouldn't be surprising if it's Middle or New Latin, related to calamar, Eng. calamari, Germ. Kalmar (Calmar, Kalamar). --Κλειδίον (talk) 16:21, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
I looked around, but only found species names (and not squid-related ones), the writing-reed-related sense (e.g. from The Register of John de Grandisson, Bishop of Exeter, (A. D. 1327-1369): " [] penne, calamarii, atque carte, [] ", or Q. Horatii Flacci Satyrae: [] cultelli & calamarii [] ), or Romanian. I also found a couple copies of a US museum work saying that this was also a noun meaning "pen bearer", but they seem to be misunderstanding or simply misrepresenting the adjective, because I couldn't find any uses of that noun, either. - -sche (discuss) 09:33, 14 March 2019 (UTC)



I think this entry is a mistake, as presented here.

Lepticed7 (talk) 12:12, 2 March 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "Hoklo (topolect)". —Suzukaze-c 03:06, 5 March 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: to cause to fall, bring to fall, drop -- 04:54, 6 March 2019 (UTC)


Is there any use outside of/unrelated to 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:34, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

The "臺灣教育部閩南語推薦用字 : Recommended Characters for the Hokkien Language" has the wording "異用字 Variant Forms" according to [96]. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:22, 14 March 2019 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: The choice of characters in 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 is based on 臺灣教育部閩南語推薦用字, so I'm not sure if they can be considered independent sources. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:42, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't know of any other place where this wording is used; it may be idiosyncratic. I assumed it was not because it was used in the context of a dictionary. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:45, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Another example in 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典: "蹛 ... 異用字 帶、滯" “Entry #12651”, in 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 [Dictionary of Frequently-Used Taiwan Minnan] (in Chinese and Min Nan), Ministry of Education, R.O.C., 2011.--Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:00, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: That doesn't help. We need three independent sources. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:50, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
  • RFV failed due to lack of sources independent of 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)


Esperanto. Nothing on Google Books, nothing in ReVo or PIV, nothing in the Tekstaro. פֿינצטערניש (talk) 15:39, 12 March 2019 (UTC)


Serbo-Croatian: I don't give a fuck --Pious Eterino (talk) 18:56, 12 March 2019 (UTC)


Afrikaans. Mentioned in dictionaries, but not actually used? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:57, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

I expected to see hits for beskermheiligefees, but that term has only one hit, not durably archived.  --Lambiam 13:24, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

𠁣 and 𠃛Edit

The definition: "(onomatopoeia) The sound of punching." Johnny Shiz (talk) 15:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Hanyu Da Zidian only provides one citation for both these characters from 封神演義. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:55, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
As you know too well, I'm not really the best at ancient Han characters. Just wanted to make sure everything was accurate, thanks. Johnny Shiz (talk) 12:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)


Sanskrit for Okinawa seems unlikely to be citable. @Kwékwlos created the entry. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:03, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Sooth African InglisEdit

Seemingly a Scots Wikipedian's invention. Equinox 10:01, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Maybe not entirely, it's hard to tell. Two of the components, sooth and Inglis, appear in the Concise Scots Dictionary I just bought, which is proving useful already. No entry for African however. Anyway, it's not a proper noun. DonnanZ (talk) 10:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)
Whether or not the individual words it's composed of are attested is pretty much beside the point though, as we're interested in this term as a whole. Which, from my quick search, definitely doesn't appear to be attested: no Google Books or Google Groups hits, and a regular Google query doesn't yield much either. Seems to be another Wikipedia neologism: wish people would stop importing those to Wiktionary without verifying attestation. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 11:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

lappen (Dutch)Edit

Rfv-sense "to enfold, to embrace". I have never heard of this one and it wasn't in the dictionaries I checked. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

A comment left on Talk:lappen shows that the editor who added this got confused in interpreting the old-fashioned past participle lapt of the English verb lap in the sense “to enfold; to hold as in one's lap” (descendant of the Middle English verb lappen), imagining it to be the past participle of a now non-existent English verb *lappen and then got the L2 wrong to boot. (The word “happen” in the section title is, apparently, a confusing typo for “lappen”. How hapless this all.)  --Lambiam 23:29, 18 March 2019 (UTC)


Uncited iĉisma form. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 08:31, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Cited. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 14:57, 27 May 2019 (UTC)


There's one citation from Egalecen, but unfortunately, I don't think that blog is durably archived (though some of its authors appear in durably archived works like Beletra Almanako). פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 08:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)


Only one citation, apparently from a Wikitrans article about a manga. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 08:38, 19 March 2019 (UTC)


Uncited. I'm only really familiar with virbovo. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 08:39, 19 March 2019 (UTC)


"only used in compounds" sounds like Bär = boar doesn't (and didn't) exist.
Note: boar and Eber have "obsolete dialectal German Bär (“boar”)" which would imply a word Bär = boar does exist,.. but with many German dialects being treated like languages at en.WT (e.g. Bavarian) it's not necessarily "German" in en.WT's strict sence... --Brown*Toad (talk) 01:52, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I suppose the formally correct thing to do is to replace the current non-gloss definition with {{only used in}} and link all the compounds that way. I've done that now. If others come to our attention and the list grows excessively long, we could consider going back to the old format and listing the compounds as derived terms. - -sche (discuss) 05:02, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Template:only used in is for whole words only occuring in phrases, e.g. Laufenden in auf dem Laufenden. --Brown*Toad (talk) 05:35, 30 March 2019 (UTC)
Chinese compound words use it, and I suspect also entries in spaced languages, though I'm not sure how to search for examples short of just paging through all the entries it's used on. - -sche (discuss) 05:30, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Cited as a standalone word. Most of the citations are of the "jib (a small sail forward of the mainsail)" type because it's otherwise difficult to find and be sure of instances where Bär means boar rather than bear, since they're homographic and used in the same contexts. I also found some books discussing inspections of pork which included inspections of various breeds, wild pigs, and Bären; even there, it could mean bear meat instead of wild boar meat, but given the other citations and the compound words, I think it's clear this sense existed. - -sche (discuss) 20:15, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

beeld (Scots)Edit

Meaning "image, picture", this is more often mentioned (with a different etymology) as the term for a temporary shelter. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:21, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

That definition can be found here [[97]] Leasnam (talk) 21:30, 3 April 2019 (UTC)


I created this Czech entry in the sense of buttocks with the use of PSJČ linked from the entry[98]. However, I was not careful enough to check there are actual uses to meet WT:ATTEST. And another source tells me that "Přesto však pozdější zpracovatelé slovníků vytvořili na základě tohoto jediného dokladu nový význam slova holičky", which suggests that PSJČ authors had only a single attesting quotation, one by J. Š. Baar. Unless we can find 3 independent uses, we have to remove this entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:20, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't see anything on Usenet, and among the magazines indexed by Issuu, it seems to exist only as (a form of) a capitalized name. - -sche (discuss) 04:58, 27 March 2019 (UTC)


I doubt that this word exists in Turkish. It would supposedly be a verbal noun of the verb *bağdarlamak, a denominal verb for the noun bağdar, which is the simple present of bağdamak (“to intertwine”) but can be used as a nominal participle, meaning “someone or something that habitually intertwines”. However, I do not think this can be attested in the given or any other sense in standard Turkish. It is not listed on the TDK website.  --Lambiam 18:52, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Well, there are citations at Citations:bağdarlama; is there anything wrong with them? (There could be: in the past citations offered up for this kind of word have been Azeri, barely comprehensible Turkish, not actually durably archived, etc. We really need more Turkish editors who aren't grinding axes in one direction or the other.) - -sche (discuss) 04:53, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I had overlooked these citations. There is a small group of people seeking to purge Turkish from not-true-Turkish words like televizyon, a word that stems from the foreign Greek language and thus should be abhorrent to true-blood Turks. They come up with weird loans from other Turkic languages like sınalgı from Kyrgyz сыналгы, which no Turk outside this group understands. So apparently bağdarlama (from regional Kazakh бағдарлама) is their chosen replacement for program. You can ask one hundred literate Turks for the meaning of bağdarlama, and almost certainly not a single one will have a clue.  --Lambiam 05:32, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
In case it is not clear, I am of the opinion that this is purist cruft that does not deserve inclusion.  --Lambiam 05:54, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam: LOL, another Turkish group seeks to make all Turkic languages to write in Roman letters. You can see that work on the Turkish, Kazakh and Wiktionary projects. All their Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Tatar and Uyghur terms are written in Latin, ignoring the standard and common spelling, well in advance of any future orthography reforms. They also chose the wrong lemma forms for Tatar verbs, which matches better the Turkish way. They have bulk-converted all Cyrillic-based Kazakh into Latin. Now we know that future standard Kazakh Latin spellings (romanisation) keep changing - bağdarlamabag'darlamabaǵdarlama. The agenda of this group is clear but it's a huge disservice to users who can't find the correct attested and widely used Kazakh words in the right spelling. The Kazakh romanisation bağdarlama of the current Kazakh word бағдарлама (bağdarlama) is also part of that effort. I have deleted bağdarlama#Kazakh recently. I had to clean many unattested Tatar words in the past through RFV. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:05, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Three of the citations are from printed publications and seem to be valid. -- 11:49, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Based on the above discussion I would suggest copying the label and usage note sınalgı uses, but it does seem to meet CFI. We do have rare neologisms in other languages, too, even English. - -sche (discuss) 19:00, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Of the citations given for sınalgı, only one-and-a-half support the sense “television”. The last one contains so many made-up words, not found in any dictionary, that it is not possible to make out what it is trying to say. It is as if the confluction of snopivity is flurbing our sensiness to the trather or beyond, if you get what I mean. The others do not make too much sense either. What is a television buffalo? (Not the domesticated water buffalo you also find in Turkey, but an Indian wild water buffalo.) It is interesting that this citation returns in the citations for bağdarlama, showing that this belongs to a walled garden.  --Lambiam 20:15, 28 March 2019 (UTC)
Based on your analysis, I think we can conclude that the citations are bad and the term (Turkish) should be deleted as not cited/verified. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:40, 28 March 2019 (UTC)


Suzukaze-c 04:58, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

バイQ is found on Google. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 11:10, 4 April 2019 (UTC)


Entry states a Translingual abbreviation for hajji. There's no Translingual entry for hajji, so perhaps this should be moved to English. How do you go about citing Translingual entries, anyway? --Pious Eterino (talk) 13:00, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

It is a Malay (including Bahasa Indonesia) abbreviation for Haji. It is definitely not translingual.  --Lambiam 17:01, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

chó sa-canEdit

RFV for Vietnamese. Unable to find any Vietnamese sources on the Internet, and I have never seen the term attested in Vietnamese books published in the 21st century. The term is currently labelled "obsolete" (I added the label). But was it ever in use in the first place? (The commonly accepted name for jackal in Vietnamese is chó rừng.) --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 08:43, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

@Fumiko Take Do you remember where you found this word? Asking for a response since none has been given in nearly six months. QQ gives nothing. --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 10:02, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense of "to jerk off, masturbate". Can this slang use be attested? I don't remember hearing this word before. Most of the results found in Testaro are about actual cows. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 10:33, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

It looks like it is very uncommon, but there are some results for it. [99] [100] ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:20, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

April 2019Edit


Old Saxon - a place (what place?) Any takers? SemperBlotto (talk) 08:31, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

The user who added this added many more unidentifiable Old Saxon toponyms, in the process consistently mangling the Christian name of the author of the source of these entries from Moritz to Mortiz.  --Lambiam 18:05, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
This is tricky. There may not be any modern place that this can be identified with, as places are not only founded over time but also sometimes abandoned or absorbed into others, or their names forgotten. From such old sources it's not always clear what the place name is referring to, let alone whether it matches a modern-day place. So then "a place" is really all we can do in terms of definition, perhaps specifying that it is thought to lie in some general area (northern Germany, given that it's Old Saxon).
Of course, if the name doesn't meet the attestation criteria then that's another matter altogether. However, I did point out that there is some ambiguity regarding the language of such place names (see discussion). They may appear in Latin texts rather than Old Saxon texts and are designated as Old Saxon because they are place names in Old Saxon-speaking areas and are clearly not Latin exonyms. —Rua (mew) 17:37, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
@Leornendeealdenglisc (Pinging user in question in case they wish to comment.) — Mnemosientje (t · c) 06:43, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
Cited (as Avon-huvil and not Avonhuvil, the creator of the entry missed the "-" which was also missing in Aldon-Hotnon and probably more entries). --Brown*Toad (talk) 13:21, 14 April 2019‎ (UTC)


As above. SemperBlotto (talk) 08:32, 3 April 2019 (UTC) (there are several others by the same editor)

Altniederdeutsche Eigennamen aus dem neunten bis elften Jahrhundert. Zusammengestellt von Dr. Mortiz Heyne. Als Gruss an die germanistische Section der 25. deutschen Philologen-Versammlung, Halle, 1867, p. 1: "Avukon-thorp n. loc.: dat. in Aucon-|thorpe Cr. 22" with "Cr. = Index bonorum et redituum monasteriorum Werdinensis et Helmonstadensis saeculo decimo vel undecimo conscriptus. Edidit Wilh. Crecelius, Dr. Elberfeldae 1864." → Collectae ad augendam nominum propriorum Saxonicorum et Frisiorum scientiam spectantes. Edidit Wilh. Crecelius, Dr. I. Index bonorum et redituum monasteriorum Werdinensis et Helmonstadensis saeculo decimo vel undecimo conscriptus. Edidit Wilh. Crecelius, Dr., Elberfelda, 1864, p. 22: "[...] In Frilingothorpe iij dimidia uirga. In Aucon thorpe xum uirge. In UUilinghem i uirga. In UUestar husun undecimus dimidius pes. In Aldonthorpe xxx. ui peđ. [...]"
  • It's "[in] Aucon thorpe", not "Avukonthorp".
  • It's Latin.
--Brown*Toad (talk) 08:58, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


Allegedly an interjection ‘expressing fear, caution or disapproval’. Guldrelokk (talk) 10:01, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Weird. The corresponding entry on the Russian Wiktionary suggests no such sense. It seems to me that the sense can simply be given as “OK”. By the way, in the senses listed for the English interjection OK, I miss the function of process control interruption in turn-taking, serving as a request to the speaker to grant the turn to the interrupter. I don’t know how to phrase this concisely yet comprehensibly.  --Lambiam 21:10, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
Used in turn-taking, serving as a request to the speaker to grant the turn to the interrupter? DCDuring (talk) 21:28, 3 April 2019 (UTC)
I hope that, in conjunction with the usex, that is sufficiently clear.  --Lambiam 14:23, 4 April 2019 (UTC)


Korean: Need to find usages, not mentions, some dictionaries bulk-insert all variant Chinese characters, mixing simplified (Chinese or Japanese), even if they are not used in those languages. @KevinUp: Sorry, I don't need to be mean, I just don't think it's right. A dictionary mention is not enough. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:25, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I found something on Google Books: [101] [102] [103] [104] [105] KevinUp (talk) 23:52, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
The two quotations are obviously mentions and the third is Chinese, no? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:01, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
I added the Korean entry based on the Table of Hanja for Personal Names (인명용한자표), which listed this glyph as a variant form of .
Yes, the first one is obviously a mention of the glyph as an alternative form of . The remaining citations indicate that this glyph may be used as a proper noun for various placenames. KevinUp (talk) 00:34, 5 April 2019 (UTC)


Chinese: as above (Korean). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:25, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

(1) Hanyu Da Zidian (2nd edition, page 2897) has the following citation:
[Classical Chinese, trad.]
[Classical Chinese, simp.]
From: 597 AD, 楊秀 美人董氏墓誌銘
Hán huá tù yàn, lóng zhāng fèng cǎi. [Pinyin]
(please add an English translation of this example)
(2) Kangxi dictionary has the following citation:
字彙雲南 [Classical Chinese, trad.]
字汇云南 [Classical Chinese, simp.]
From: 1666 AD, 吳任臣 字彙補
【 Zìhuì bǔ 】 Yúnnán yǒu èr gé lóng dì, yǒu jiǔ shān zuì xiǎn. [Pinyin]
Transcription of a placename in Yunnan.
(3) More search results at Wikisource Chinese: [106]

For Chinese characters, many tend to be archaic or obsolete and lack proper citations. Fortunately this character has some. KevinUp (talk) 23:52, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

I will check these, thanks --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:01, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
@KevinUp: IKR? Johnny Shiz (talk) 20:57, 22 April 2019 (UTC)


I believe that translation listed as Polish should be included as Old Polish.

I have been reading the dictionary by Derksen cited as a source. I am also a native speaker (and a linguist) and I noticed that that particular dictionary has not been proof checked by someone with better background in Polish. Thus, I checked both, that is a dictionary by Polish Academia of Science (our highest authority in ant type of science and humanities), and haven't found it. Then I went to sjp.pwn, which is the biggest commercial ditionary, and none information was there, in Doroszewski's dictionary neither (that is a standard for modern Polish before 1990). Google search linked me to Old Polish dictionary, where the word is still used.


It seems that this was added on the basis of some taxonomic names. But we don't consider taxonomic names to be Latin, do we? I'm not sure if this can be considered Latin either if that's the case. —Rua (mew) 17:31, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Then move it. All we lose is the declension tables. DCDuring (talk) 19:24, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
I'm not pretending to know all the relevant policies and practices. I'm asking for clarification, and for action to be taken depending on what is needed. —Rua (mew) 19:33, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
There's never been any consensus. I don't really care. DCDuring (talk) 19:47, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
The more common treatment seems to be to list such names as Latin, as seen for example for carolinensis. Like is done for that lemma, I think names for which the use is confined to taxonomy should be labelled “(botany, zoology, New Latin)” (with appropriate adjustments to the list of branches of biology – for evergladensis including mycology). Personally, I feel that including a declension table is over the top, though.  --Lambiam 21:10, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
My own thoughts is that they should be listed as Latin (without macrons &c), labelled as "New Latin", and that declension tables should be include only if any of the feminine and/or neuter, plural &c forms are also used (they're not in this case). SemperBlotto (talk) 05:55, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
Talk:iroquoianus, Talk:albifrons + WT:CFI are quite clear: The term has to be attested in Latin to be Latin.
@Lambiam: 1. carolinensis or Carolinensis can be found and possibly attested in Latin ([107], [108], [109]), though its sense might be different (compare karolinisch, carolinisch, Karl, Carl, and also see [110]: "acus Carolinensis, Karlsbader Insektennadel"). 2. People ignoring WT:CFI and (other) vandals don't change the rules because they ignore them.
--Brown*Toad (talk) 07:18, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
I do not immediately see which clause from CFI applies here, but I have no problem with the L2 being changed to “Translingual”. I just reported on what appeared to be a commonly taken approach, based on inspecting a small sample of the most common epithets. If Carolinensis can be attested in Latin, it probably has a different etymology, being from Carolus without a detour through the Carolinas.  --Lambiam 17:27, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
The most plausible ways to get Latin attestation for specific epithets like this are through Catholic Church Latin (many placename adjectives) or from scientific Latin taxonomic descriptions (mostly 19th century and earlier). This term, unlike caroliniensis or carolinianus, is not likely to be found in such sources. DCDuring (talk) 19:08, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam: "including a term if it is attested" and "use in permanently recorded media, conveying meaning" - of course a Latin term has to be attested in Latin, with a use in a Latin media.
Trying to attest Latin with random non-Latin usages is the same as trying to attest English *handy (mobile phone) with usages of Handy or *footing (jogging) with footing.
And that doesn't work out.
@DCDuring: Church Latin doesn't attest taxonomic terms regarding labels and biological stuff like "Discovered in or native to [region]" as in magellanicus,
and Church Latin more often capitalises adjectives while in non-Latin biological texts it's more often uncapitalised.
--Brown*Toad (talk) 08:58, 14 April 2019 (UTC)


Never heard of it and I also can't seem to find it in dictionaries or on Google. @Word dewd544, does it ring a bell? --Robbie SWE (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Personally I've never heard the word. But it could be some kind of rare slang used among certain people, or either a newer or conversely a more dated word? For some reason it doesn't seem certain to me that it's outright made up by someone though, given the phonetics and proposed etymology; they'd have to be decently well-versed. Who knows. Word dewd544 (talk) 14:25, 1 June 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: Sentence-final particle softening the request. @Geographyinitiative — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:04, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I am sure have seen it discussed in fluff news articles this way, used in WeChat this way many times, and was also taught that it was used this way at least twice in Wuhan. Not as a real laugh, but kind of like a "ha" qingsheng at the end. Signals a flavor of authoritativeness. But this usage is apparently unknown in Taiwan. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:15, 11 April 2019 (UTC)语气词 单音节吧、罢、呗、啵、的、价、家、啦、来、唻、了、嘞、哩、咧、咯、啰、喽、吗、嘛、嚜、么(麽)、哪、呢、呐、否、呵、哈、不、兮、般、则、连、罗、给、噻、哉、呸、 <--- --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:23, 11 April 2019 (UTC)


I can't find this in any of my West Frisian dictionaries and word lists, so if this exists it's probably obsolete or exceedingly rare. —Rua (mew) 20:57, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

I do see where the entry may have come from, though. It is a rarer alternative form of goate, which has a totally different meaning. However, the Dutch word scheut can translate to both "plant shoot" and "splash of liquid". So maybe someone found the Dutch translation and mistranslated it into English. —Rua (mew) 21:08, 9 April 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "little girl" — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:18, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Wouldn’t “little woman/girl” be a literal sense (and thus SOP)?  --Lambiam 06:53, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
Possibly. If it is a verifiable sense, I'd say we should still keep it since 女 is kind of a bound morpheme in Mandarin. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 14:14, 10 April 2019 (UTC)


Rfv for Chinese. @Tooironic. Dokurrat (talk) 11:42, 11 April 2019 (UTC) Rfv-sense for Chinese: "cup noodles". Dokurrat (talk) 02:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

@Dokurrat There's a whole Chinese Wikipedia article about it! Johnny Shiz (talk) 15:53, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
@Johnny Shiz: And it is not about cup noodles in general. Dokurrat (talk) 02:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
And many hits on Baidu. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:47, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
@Tooironic: And they are not about cup noodles in general. Dokurrat (talk) 02:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
@Dokurrat: Please put more info for why you're RFVing. I'm guessing it's because 合味道 is a particular brand and you want to have verification that it is used to mean "cup noodles" generically. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:28, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: I changed this request from RFV to RFV-sense. Dokurrat (talk) 02:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
The results of Google image search strongly suggest the trademark has not become genericized.  --Lambiam 00:10, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam: @Dokurrat: We have an entry for Adidas. We have an entry for Coca-Cola. We have an entry for McDonald's. What's preventing 合味道 from having an entry for the "cup noodles" sense? Come to think of it, what exactly is Wiktionary's policy on brand names? Johnny Shiz (talk) 20:56, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
Our policy on brand names is given at WT:BRAND. Adidas and Coca Cola are presented as proper nouns, while 合味道 is presented as just a noun, like 炒飯 or 春捲. And 杯麵, which is not a brand name, is given as synonym. (Also the Chinese name of the robot Baymax from Big Hero – for a generic name, 杯麪 may be better.) Anyways, Dokurrat never really clarified the basis of their request, but apparently the sense is not the generic one of 杯麵/杯麪, so the given sense is not proper.  --Lambiam 22:13, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
I think it is attestable the same way 可口可樂 is, as a brand name – the Chinese equivalent of Cup Noodles. Examples: 就如同合味道的杯面,不仅价格实惠,配料也很实在,能让你在深夜找到简单的快乐。, 平时只能吃出前一丁,或者合味道海鲜面、康师傅排骨面。, 手下隨手在垃圾筒撿了一個合味道空杯放在地上。. (I hope I got these right and they refer specifically to this product; the combination of characters is also frequently used in its literal sense, something like “tasty dish”.)  --Lambiam 18:10, 27 April 2019 (UTC)
  • Rfv-sense failed. Dokurrat (talk) 09:14, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
    @Dokurrat: You shouldn't have just removed the sense and made the entry useless like that. Should we add a proper noun sense? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 18:20, 21 June 2019 (UTC)
  • RFV-sense failed for the generic sense "cup noodles". Proper noun sense added. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:48, 21 October 2019 (UTC)


This "root" has no e in it, which makes it suspicious. IEW is 60 years old and thus not adequate as a source, and the Wiktionary page name doesn't match the form given in IEW anyway. —Rua (mew) 15:43, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

@Rua, this should just be deleted. --{{victar|talk}} 13:52, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
@Victar I added De Vaan as a more trustworthy source, but it's still somewhat dubious that there are no full grades anywhere. —Rua (mew) 13:57, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
@Rua: I deleted the PII forms because those were all impossible. Now we're just left with the Latin and a couple dubious extra-Latin forms. --{{victar|talk}} 14:08, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
@Rua, Victar: I don't know about this particular root, but *bʰuh₂- is one root that doesn't seem to have had a full grade, so it wouldn't be without precedent. —Mahāgaja · talk 05:40, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: Like I said, I'm more concerned with the lack of indubious cognates outside of Latin, which is grounds enough for deletion. --{{victar|talk}} 23:44, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
What are the IE cognates of Skt. √śad ("fall, fall out, fall off; collapse; decay, wither, perish")? Hölderlin2019 (talk) 01:15, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Victar: Hölderlin2019 raises a good point. It's clear that Proto-Iranian *kat- can't be connected and should be deleted, but why is Sanskrit शशद (śaśada) = Latin cecidī impossible? It could even be evidence for a full grade *ḱh₂ed- (since zero grade *ḱh₂d- would have given לid- rather than śad-). —Mahāgaja · talk 08:56, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Well for one, ×शशद (לaśada) does not exist -- it's actually शशाद (śaśāda), and that word reflects PIE *ḱe-ḱód-e, which itself points to a *ḱed- root. Secondly, I've only seen that word in the context of listing cognates for the Latin -- it's not in any of my Sanskrit dictionaries -- so it's very poorly attested which makes me question its meaning entirely and think that it's just a bunch of semantic massaging by Latinists. Not all Indo-European words need cognates, nor are all words actually from PIE. --{{victar|talk}} 13:09, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
It's listed in both Whitney and MW? Hölderlin2019 (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
I think you meant to write, "is it", and no, in Sanskrit the word शशाद (śaśāda) actually means "eating rabbits", as seen in Monier-Williams. --{{victar|talk}} 15:01, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
No, I meant that it's listed in both Whitney and MW. Hölderlin2019 (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Ah, accidental question mark than. That's the danger of using older sources; often inflection tables are assumed and not based on actual sources. The only form that is found in Sanskrit, and again, very poorly attested, is (only found once in AV) शत्स्यति (śatsyati) and everything else is fabricated. So again, ×शशद (לaśada) did not exist. --{{victar|talk}} 15:20, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
It was a quizzical question mark. I don't know why you think the inflections are fabricated (by whom? Whitney/MW? the Indian grammarians?); both Whitney and MW assert that this particular one is attested in the Brahmanas. Hölderlin2019 (talk) 15:33, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
Inflection tables are made up all the time. We do so even on en.Wikt. Modern sources ({{R:ine:LIV}}) cite the word as शशाद (śaśāda) and not ×शशद (לaśada) as seen in MW. Also, MW mistakenly associates this word with the unrelated शीयते (śīyate, to fall down), which is from *ḱey-. --{{victar|talk}} 15:40, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Victar: But शशाद (śaśāda) does exist? If so, it can come from *ḱe-ḱod-e as you say, but surely it can also come from *ḱe-ḱh₂od-e, from a root *ḱh₂ed-, of which both the zero grade and the full grade could give Latin cadō. —Mahāgaja · talk 18:39, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: Is *ḰHeT- even a valid root in PIE? In PII, you might also expect the laygyeal to have some sort of aspirating power. --{{victar|talk}} 19:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Victar: We have entries for *kh₂em-, *kh₂eyd-, and *sh₂ey-, so the root shape seems to be rare but not impossible. As for aspiration, you'd expect it after a stop, but probably not after ś. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:17, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: I was asking *ḰHeT- (=*KʲHeT-), not *KHeT-. I don't think it is. Aspiration would have been pre-PII. --{{victar|talk}} 19:31, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Victar: In both cases I suspect there aren't enough examples to allow us to generalize. CHEC is a rather rare root shape to begin with, so the apparent lack of ḰHeC- could be coincidental. And even if *-ḱH- became *-śʰ- in PII, are there enough examples of PII *-śʰ- to be sure that it didn't simply become ś in Sanskrit? —Mahāgaja · talk 19:37, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: I found an example with *sḱeh₂i- ~ *(s)ḱh₂ey- ~ *(s)ḱeyh₂- (cut open, sting) which allegedly yielded σχάω (skháō) and ἔσχασα (éskhasa). Theoretically, I would think PIE *ḱe-ḱh₂ód-e would have yielded > śeśʰh₂óde > PII *ćaćʰHáda (=/tśatśʰHáda/) > PIA *śaśʰHáda > शहद (śaháda). Problem is, we lack clear examples of *ḱh₂. --{{victar|talk}} 20:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
My point exactly. We know that *źʰ became h in Sanskrit, but that doesn't mean *śʰ did. It may have become simply ś. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:40, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Victar: This discussion is surreal. Whitney does not "make up" inflection tables; Whitney does not deal in inflection tables, except in his introductory grammars. What he does do is catalogue attested Vedic + Skt. forms and assign them to roots. MW is not in error; he's simply following the synchronic analysis of the ancient grammarians, whose fiat assignment in this particular case Whitney explicitly discusses. The reduplicated perfect in question is multiply attested in the Brahmanas. I'm frankly astounded by how tenuous your grasp of how to understand the Sanskrit is, never mind the Sanskrit itself Hölderlin2019 (talk) 20:16, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
But Whitney doesn't list *शशद (śaśada); he lists शशाद (śaśāda), whose existence Victar isn't denying. —This unsigned comment was added by Mahagaja (talkcontribs) at 16:40, 24 June 2019.
For one, I've only been referring to MW, not Whitney. Secondly, I'm not infallible and if I misread some source, I'm happy for someone to point it out, but personally attacking me is unnecessary. And lastly, any author is also fallible, especially in older works when our understanding of PIE and Sanskrit was not as developed and defined as it is today. I'm not sure which part you are claiming MW isn't in error of, but Rix agrees that MW mistakenly lumped शीयते (śīyate, to fall down) into this root, which probably had bearing on the definition he gave for it and calls into question the semantic connection to the Latin. --{{victar|talk}} 20:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, {{R:ine:LIV}} reconstructs the root as *ḱad- (*ḱád-e-ti > cadō) and {{R:ine:LIPP}} as *ḱed- (*ḱd-é-ti > *ḱₔd-é-ti > cadō). --{{victar|talk}} 19:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
That could work too for those of us who believe that PIE primary a was merely rare but not nonexistent. —Mahāgaja · talk 19:17, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: Yeah, I'm not a fan of PIE a entries either. I think, however, there is some argument to be made that it existed natively in onomatopoeic roots. My preference would be for *ḱed- though. --{{victar|talk}} 21:01, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Old Norse emi ? (1st person sg. copula)Edit

this wiki page as well as online etymology dictionary mention emi as an alternative form of em, preserving the final -i of PIE verb endings. Can we get an academic source for this?

RubixLang (talk) 16:41, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

caelus as Vulgar Latin form in caelumEdit

I'm challenging the Vulgar Latin form as [111] sounds like the added form should be Vulgar Latin *caelus. --Waikaistai (talk) 04:10, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

It looks to me like this is just an alternative form of caelum, not an entirely separate word. —Rua (mew) 16:24, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I really can't tell what's being challenged here. The entry is referenced, with several cites listed in Gaffiot. As the anon notes, this being the colloquial term explains the Old French well. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:03, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
I guess that the question is, is there evidence that Latin caelus survived into the period of Vulgar Latin? If not, and this is a reconstruction, it should be marked as such. I don’t understand the argument, though, why this is supposed to be Vulgar Latin in the first place. Old French ciel is thought to come from Latin caelum. What is with this Old French ciels? Is that another word than the plural of ciel? The authors cited in Gaffiot are all strictly classical – the latest is Servius, who wrote in Classical Latin – so I don’t understand why this {{alter}} of caelum is labelled old either.  --Lambiam 19:27, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam Old French still had two cases, but lost the neuter gender already. The nominative singular form ciels is a direct reflection of caelus. —Rua (mew) 20:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
OK, thanks. So does this mean that in the section Etymology of Old French ciel From {{inh|fro|la|caelum}} should be changed to From {{inh|fro|la|caelus}}?  --Lambiam 21:13, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
Metaknowledge: Does Gaffiot give cites for a Vulgar Latin term? Enn[ius] is Old Latin and Lucr[etius], Vitr[uvius] and Cic[ero] aren't Vulgar Latin either.
Quoting Lambian: "the question is, is there evidence that Latin caelus survived into the period of Vulgar Latin? If not, and this is a reconstruction, it should be marked as such." Indeed. And even if it survived into Vulgar Latin times: Is it attested as Vulgar Latin, or only as Late Latin in which case the Vulgar Latin would still be a reconstruction or a mislabelling of Late Latin? --Waikaistai (talk) 21:49, 16 April 2019 (UTC)
I thought that Vulgar Latin was an umbrella term for Latin spoken by ordinary folk wherever Roman influence was strong and was contemporaneous with both Classical Latin and Late Latin, and may be considered to have lasted beyond, even to the end of the first millennium. DCDuring (talk) 02:22, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
So Vulgar Latin survived Classical Latin and even Late Latin. But I still see no reasonable argument for labelling the alternative form caelus as specifically Vulgar Latin (or old, or anything).  --Lambiam 09:28, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
I don't think it's so easy to make a distinction, as they were just two different registers of the same language. Elements of vulgar Latin occasionally crept into written Latin from time to time, but I don't think there is a point in distinguishing VL as an entirely separate dialect or even language. It was just the informal-everyday spoken form of Latin, whereas the written standard was more formal and archaic. What can be said about caelus, if it is indeed attested, is that it fits the general trend in most of the Romance languages of eliminating the neuter gender in favour of the masculine. But that alone does not make caelus vulgar, necessarily, just that it has one particular trait associated with vulgar Latin. —Rua (mew) 16:26, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
It seems as if it could treated here as something like a reconstructed language, based on occasional intrusions into written Latins and backward inference from Christian Latin, Late Latin, and early forms of Romance languages. Some older sources support it. It's hard for me to see why we should extirpate it from Wiktionary. DCDuring (talk) 22:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)
Absurd challenge. Added quotes from the early Empire. Fay Freak (talk) 21:04, 22 April 2019 (UTC)
@Fay Freak – The way I interpret the request does not involve the lemma caelus, but only the section Alternative forms of etymology 1 for caelum, and specifically the dialect indicated there in the line “ caelus (old, Vulgar Latin)”.
Indeed, caelus itself wasn't challenged. caelus (Vulgar Latin) is and there still aren't any Vulgar Latin quotes, like old graffiti, or mentionings, as in the Appendix Probi. --Waikaistai (talk) 16:41, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


Kroonen does not have this verb. It only has one descendant, which does not match the reconstructed form. The noun *buþlą/*bōþlą, which the verb supposedly derives from, is not found in Kroonen's dictionary either. All this together suggests that this is a rather ad-hoc reconstruction and not supported well enough to have an entry. —Rua (mew) 16:12, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


Not found in Kroonen's dictionary either, and few of the attested descendants match the reconstruction. Old English preserves -þl-, as shown in the descendants of other Proto-Germanic terms with this cluster, which rules out bold and botl. Moreover, these descendants have a short o. Old Saxon shows Proto-Germanic d, rather than þ (compare *nēþlō, where þ is preserved). Middle Dutch merges þ and d, so there is no evidence there either way. Old Norse indeed has a regular change þl > l, as is visible from the descendants of the other pages. All in all, I don't think there's enough evidence to clearly reconstruct this. —Rua (mew) 16:22, 15 April 2019 (UTC)


Any use in running Latin text? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:59, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

I saw 0 Latin results searching at google books for "cephalopham", "cephalopho", "cephalophae", "cephalophus haec", "cephalophum haec", "cephalophus sunt", "cephalophum sunt", and by time it would be RFV failed already. (There's cephalophora/Cephalophora.) --Marontyan (talk) 18:04, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

Gender-neutral usage of male Esperanto words Edit

The following words are male in traditional Esperanto according to PMEG: avo, edzo, fianĉo, filo, frato, kuzo, nepo, nevo, onklo, patro, princo, reĝo, vidvo. In Wiktionary they have a second sense, a gender-neutral sense. I don't think this can be properly cited. Some people use words like patriĉo and edziĉo, which are cited, but those people never really use the base words gender-neutrally, but use words like gepatro and geedzo instead. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 18:52, 20 April 2019 (UTC)


Looks spurious, also as Maria Besse, Britter Wörterbuch. Moselfränkischer Dialekt am "Tor zum Hochwald" has "Fuppes m. .. dummes Zeug, Unsinn ..". Super Teddy 3 (talk) 19:58, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

I don’t think it is spurious. See the following article on the website of Welt (not Die Welt): “Über Fuppes, beömmeln und den Muckefuck”. The tentative etymologies given in the article have nothing in common with the one in our entry, but the sense and regional identification agree.  --Lambiam 12:04, 21 April 2019 (UTC)


Non-existent. The correct (new) Mongolian spelling is кинотеатр (kinoteatr) borrowed from Russian. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:38, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

@Hippietrail, Crom dabaΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:05, 29 April 2019 (UTC)
Non-existent. Crom daba (talk) 11:08, 29 April 2019 (UTC)


Old Saxon hwīnan. I'm unable to find any reference supporting it. Leasnam (talk) 04:31, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Possibly the author confused Anglo-Saxon (Angelsächsisch) and Old-Saxon (Altsächsisch). --Mukazdo (talk) 15:51, 28 April 2019 (UTC)
@Stardsen, you created this entry seven years ago. Do you remember what source you used? Are you confident it's Old Saxon and not Old English? —Mahāgaja · talk 20:44, 24 June 2019 (UTC)


"Putler", as in a derogatory term for Vladimir Putin. Is this really a topic in Inner Mongolia where the Mongolian script is still used? — surjection?〉 10:34, 23 April 2019 (UTC)


The word Palestinujo is formed wrong. The root "Palestin-" indicates a country, so adding -ujo to it is wrong. When I search this term online, I mostly find it in grammar discussions about country names. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 12:25, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

This might be citable, a quick search already yielded two attestations: [112] [113] ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:36, 23 April 2019 (UTC)


No descendants. —Rua (mew) 16:59, 23 April 2019 (UTC)


No descendants. —Rua (mew) 17:00, 23 April 2019 (UTC)


No descendants. —Rua (mew) 17:07, 23 April 2019 (UTC)


No descendants. —Rua (mew) 17:08, 23 April 2019 (UTC)


Currently the article states that the meaning is "dwarf". That is not correct. The meaning is: "submissive, docile, obedient", "bowing; bent over" or “distant” and or was used as the early name of Japanese (Yamato?). This needs to be corrected. I wanted to correct that, but was reverted and it was explained that I have to do a request for verification first. The "dwarf" or "short" meaning is this: —This unsigned comment was added by AsadalEditor (talkcontribs).

@AsadalEditor: FWIW, The MDBG entry gives a meaning of dwarf for . Meanwhile, the MDBG entry for 矮 gives a meaning of short, but not dwarf. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:57, 8 May 2019 (UTC)


duine a bhfuil dhá spioradEdit

duine a bhfuil dhá spiorad annEdit

duine a bhfuil dhá spiorad iontuEdit

These are listed as Irish translations of two-spirit, having been added by an IP some time ago, but pursuant to discussion on the talk page it seems they are probably not attested; if so, they should be removed. - -sche (discuss) 06:42, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

@-sche They are all gone now. Strangely, I don't see anything in the deletion log. How come? Johnny Shiz (talk) 16:47, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
They're translations in the translation table at two-spirit, not actual entries. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:53, 11 May 2019 (UTC)


"Seoul". —Suzukaze-c 19:26, 28 April 2019 (UTC)


I find nothing on Google Groups nor Google Books. Plain Google gives only a handful, all of which seem to be word lists of IT jargon giving West Frisian terms for equivalent English terms. —Rua (mew) 19:16, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Additionally, if the term is used at all (I doubt West Frisian electronic engineers substitute West Frisian neologisms for technical terms in their communications), the definition is way too specific; clearly the meaning would be (any) “circuit switch”, not specifically the type of miniature switch mounted on a circuit board for customization purposes.  --Lambiam 07:49, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

May 2019Edit


I don't think this is a standard spelling. The same goes for 'warhi. --Lvovmauro (talk) 04:18, 5 May 2019 (UTC)


@Justinrleung sent this to RFD, where multiple editors encouraged putting it in RFV instead. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:14, 6 May 2019 (UTC)


tagged but not listed with the following note: "This page lists *frijō as an antonym while that page list frijô as an antonynm, but they both have the same meaning. Given the other words formed from this root: frijōndz ("friend") vs fijands ("foe"), it appears this was a typo and the antonym should have been something like "fijô" and one of these pages may be wrong"

I believe the antonym is due to the gender of the words (one being male, the other female) in the same way that man is the antonym of woman Leasnam (talk) 04:35, 6 May 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: “to be sent, to be dispatched” --2001:16A2:52E3:9200:71E4:2F1C:5EAF:A08C 11:16, 6 May 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for "fumigate" and "bleach with burning sulfur" definitions. Sourced from the Unihan database. Bumm13 (talk) 04:44, 7 May 2019 (UTC)


Not an independent noun, but an etymological element in the names of certain obsolete taxa. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:36, 7 May 2019 (UTC)


Suzukaze-c 08:17, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

Kangxi Dictionary defines it as: "火行也". I don't know a lot of Classical Chinese, but I believe this means "path of fire" or something like that; please correct me if I'm wrong. Johnny Shiz (talk) 16:45, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
All the dictionaries basically have "火行" as the definition. 字彙 says "火行貌", which would imply that it's likely an adjective. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:30, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

pousser la fonteEdit

Is it durably archived? Nothing on GB. Canonicalization (talk) 10:46, 12 May 2019 (UTC)


The word appears to be logical, but I cannot find any use of any kind. Lmaltier (talk) 20:27, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

I find a few uses of the verb ensavaner from which the putative noun is derived (e.g. here), but no ensavanement (and also no ensavanage, which could have been another plausible derivation). The page was created as the single edit of an editor, which is mildly suspicious. That editor also has two curious edits on the French Wikipedia, creating redirects Mozombique → Mozambique and Tonzonie → Tanzanie (and no further edits across all Wikimedia projects).  --Lambiam 21:49, 14 May 2019 (UTC)
There is a well attested word, "savanisation", used with the same sense. CLXXX (talk) 11:30, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


Quanzhou accent is not usually used to write POJ. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:59, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

RFV failed. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:18, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


Ido for "snipe". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 07:27, 14 May 2019 (UTC)


Tagged by 2600:1000:b12f:3f61:9844:d387:80fd:cbda but not listed. — surjection?〉 18:22, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


Spanish, Dominican slang. Ultimateria (talk) 18:27, 15 May 2019 (UTC)


Spanish, eye dialect spelling of España. Ehpaña is much more citeable. Ultimateria (talk) 18:32, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

@Ultimateria: There's a lot of hits on Google Groups; are these just typos? Julia 08:29, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
@Julia: It can be hard to tell which ones are typos, but it looks like the majority to me. One is "epaña eh diferente" which uses another eye dialect spelling ("eh" for "es"). That and "pero que eto eh epaña" make only two that are definitively intentional. Ultimateria (talk) 22:18, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
  • A query.
English spelling is extremely squishy. We've got oddball things like knight and night both pronounced like nite. Words like are could be realized as /aː/ or /ɑɹ/ or /aʊə/ etc. An argument could be made that English spelling is approaching logographic in its divergence from strict phonetics. Spelling night as nite is clearly just a visual divergence: both are pronounced the same.
However, various other languages are less loosey-goosey with their orthography. Words are pronounced as they're spelled. Thus, España and Epaña are not just visual differences -- the different spellings represent different phonetic realizations.
At what point does this spelling-difference phenomenon shift from "eye dialect" to just "dialect"? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:50, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Once again, Wiktionarians are misusing the term eye dialect, which refers to a nonstandard spelling reflecting a standard pronunciation (e.g. English sez for says, whose standard pronunciation is /sɛz/). Unless /eˈpaɲa/ and /ehˈpaɲa/ are standard pronunciations in Spanish, these aren't eye dialect. They're nonstandard spellings, i.e. spellings reflecting nonstandard pronunciations. —This unsigned comment was added by Mahagaja (talkcontribs) at 17:43, 15 June 2019 (UTC).

appel du videEdit

"Urge pertaining to self-destructive behaviour": I'm not able to find actual French usage of the term, nor the origin of the phrase. Wiktionnaire doesn't have it, French Wikipedia cites an English book as source. Google Books doesn't return anything related to the claimed definition (in French, at least). – Jberkel 22:10, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

The relevant passage in the book given as source is:
“The French have a name for this unnerving impulse: l’appel du vide; ‘the call of the void’.”
This does not count as a use. Two sentences later Sartre is referenced in a way that suggests (but does not outright imply) that he actually used this specific term. The end notes direct us to an English translation by Hazel Barnes, Being and Nothingness (Washington Square Press, 1966), p. 345. I have a hard copy of L'être et le néant, but am not going to scan it for this phrase. There is a later edition of the translation by Barnes ([114]) that can be previewed; I did not find the phrase there, and also not its English translation.  --Lambiam 23:39, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

drone (Dutch)Edit

Rfv-sense of "male bee or wasp". The Middle Dutch is in the MNW (lemma: dorne), but no luck with the modern Dutch term. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:09, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

According to the Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands Dutch dar comes from Middle Dutch drone by an interesting development: drone → (by metathesis) dorne, darn(e), whose s-plural darns was displace by the en-plural darnen, and then → (by assimilation) darren, reanalyzed as the plural of dar. Parallel survival of Middle Dutch drone into present-day Dutch appears extremely implausible to me.  --Lambiam 18:59, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
In several Limburgish dialects, it is droon/drone: [115], [116]. It's a bit tricky to find non-dictionary references seen the scarcity of dialectal usage online and seen the now-prevalent use of drone in the machine sense. Morgengave (talk) 10:43, 2 June 2019 (UTC)


Rfv sense: "dhole". --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 20:04, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

@Corsicanwarrah: Is there any particular reason for your request? This sense is based on the definition "豺" in 闽南方言大词典, which is a comprehensive dictionary for Xiamen, Quanzhou and Zhangzhou Min Nan (Hokkien). The same definition is also given in 闽南话漳腔辞典. Also, next time, please remember to tag the entry/sense before bringing the request here. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 22:15, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
@Corsicanwarrah: Also seen in 晋江市方言志 in 福建县市方言志12种. Is this resolved? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:20, 16 October 2019 (UTC)
@justinrleung: Yes. I was a bit rushed back then. --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 10:00, 17 October 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: dhole. @Atitarev added it per Contemporary Chinese Dictionary (2002), but a newer (the newest?) version of the Contemporary Chinese Dictionary (Chinese edition) does not have such a sense. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 00:13, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung I won't cry if the sense is removed, it's from the old dictionary. BTW, I have pinged you on 猱犬 (náoquǎn, “dhole”), which I found in Pleco but you may have missed. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:35, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: In the Dungan-Russian dictionary there is an entry for цэлон (celon) (tones III-I) with a translation шака́л (šakál, jackal) (for the lack of the more correct word for "dhole"). I'm pretty sure it's the equivalent of Mandarin 豺狼 (cháiláng). Dungan цэгу (cegu) = 豺狗 (cháigǒu) and цэгузы (ceguzɨ) are listed as synonyms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:49, 16 June 2019 (UTC)


Indonesian, "plural of SMP" "junior high school level of the Indonesian education system". —Suzukaze-c 01:04, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

[117], [118], [119].  --Lambiam 20:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "cruel; wicked; mean" (from Unicode). Is this sense used outside of terms like 豺狼? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:21, 20 May 2019 (UTC)


  1. the animal
  2. the brand (WT:BRAND)

Suzukaze-c 01:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

It refers only to the brand Puma. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 06:18, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


RFV of the noun sense “begging, mendicancy”. I believe the noun has a very different sense in Dutch: a charm (small trinket or pendant on a bracelet), most commonly used in the diminutive form bedeltje.  --Lambiam 13:50, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

The WNT has two cites: [120]. Should at least be obsolete (outside "aan de bedel" which might well be used in spoken language but which I haven't seen in print). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:22, 27 May 2019 (UTC)
@LBD – I don’t understand “in het Mnl. niet aangewezen”. Aangewezen = aangetroffen? Is “al den bedel” in the quote not a variant (perhaps a clerical error) for “al den boedel”?  --Lambiam 18:44, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it is an archaic sense of aanwijzen (to demonstrate, to attest). And it is a variant for boedel in that section, but that isn't a quotation for the relevant definition (you should press on the arrow before the definition line to view those). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 06:53, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Added some citations. -- Curious (talk) 18:35, 17 September 2019 (UTC)


This word has only Google hits for sites that copied from Wiktionary. It is also misformed, "eks" means "former", not "outside". Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 23:11, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


When I search this word online, I see a lot of people talking about it, but I hardly see any real usage. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 23:13, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (neologism, nonstandard) they (singular); s/he. A proposed gender-neutral singular third-person personal pronoun

The quote provided is only theoretic and I don't think it's used. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:45, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Die GrünenEdit

The first sense. This doesn't count:

  • "Bündnis 90/Die Grünen"
  • "Grüne", "die Grünen" etc.
  • "Die Grünen" at the beginning of a sentence

For the second sense, one can find enough examples searching for "Partei Die Grünen". Daloda (talk) 18:58, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

Do I understand correctly that your issue is that sense 1 is actually the sum of the definite article die and the plural form of the noun Grüne(r)? If so, I think you are right. But the sense ”(in plural, collectively) the German green party, 'Bündnis 90/Die Grünen'“, currently found at Grüner, may be more in place at Grünen. (Does it make sense that this noun has separate masculine and feminine entries? Can’t we combine them?)  --Lambiam 05:19, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
No, my point is: Does "Die Grünen" meaning "Bündnis 90/Die Grünen" exists, is it attestable, are there pars-pro-toto uses? "Die Grünen" refering to an older party exists. And because of the capital D it's not just "die" + "Grüner".
(Grüner/Grüne and Grüne are different words with different gender and inflection.) Daloda (talk) 10:28, 30 May 2019 (UTC)


The word exists, but the characters seem questionable. I can only find this orthography in a wikibook (b:zh:福州語/數字). — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:56, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

福州方言研究 writes the monosyllabic form (recorded in 福州方言詞典 1998 as ) as . — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:08, 28 May 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: جَرَم (jaram):

  1. crime, sin, wrongdoing
  2. a thing that incites anger, aggravates, or instigates ill-will

--2001:16A2:5310:FE00:F845:F876:E4B8:8216 08:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

You can’t rfv a vocalization. Any text with it will be written the same as جُرْم(jurm) with the same meaning. Fay Freak (talk) 08:30, 28 May 2019 (UTC)


Spanish, "to tame". Ultimateria (talk) 16:48, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

It's in this dictionary (not sure what "sl" means). DTLHS (talk) 16:51, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
Apparently it means "slang". ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:34, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
It was WF who made the page, which is a bad sign. That guy sucks. Anyway, it seems to mean, unsurprisingly, to school or educate. Rare as hell, though. --I learned some phrases (talk) 20:23, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

chopine américaine sècheEdit

No uses found in a general Web search. Equinox 18:59, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


The English word failed verification; we should check if the French word passes. — SGconlaw (talk) 14:28, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

June 2019Edit


See talk. —Suzukaze-c 01:04, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

There are some hits on Google, but it's probably not verifiable in durable sources. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 20:22, 16 October 2019 (UTC)


I only see mentions, not uses. Canonicalization (talk) 12:33, 3 June 2019 (UTC)


Esperanto. Nothing on the Tekstaro; highly suspect as anything other than an idealized bonalingva form. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 06:24, 5 June 2019 (UTC)


This word does seem to exist, but I think it refers to a kind of meat. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 12:12, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I've added the meat sense, but haven't been able to find cites for the slang senses. infopédia lists "nipple" (not "boob"), and "breastmilk". – Jberkel 13:53, 5 June 2019 (UTC)


No results on Google Books. 18:53, 6 June 2019 (UTC)


Said to mean "mouth". I've only heard of this as a brand. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:00, 7 June 2019 (UTC)


An IP editor insists on removing it as "unattestable". — surjection?〉 13:32, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

According to L&S the nominative singular is unattested. It's not in my Later Latin (to AD600) glossary either. DCDuring (talk) 14:51, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
The IP may know Latin (just FYI the IP address belongs is a US school district), but they don't know how Wiktionary Latin entries are organized: the lemma is supposed to be at the nominative singular, and the other forms are soft redirects to the lemma. If we delete the lemma, the definitions, etymology and inflection tables go with it, just leaving redlinks to a non-existent lemma in the form-of entries. IIRC, we deal with this by saying somewhere in the lemma entry that the nominative singular itself isn't attested. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:48, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
Curiously enough, the term is also the name of the earth goddess Ops, and also when used as her name it is unattested in the nominative or vocative; even where you would expect this according to the standard grammatical rules, the oblique case “Opis” is substituted. This is rather peculiar. Was there a tabu on the term “ops”? And how can we be sure that the nominative is not actually “opis” (cf. “apis” – “apis” – “apī” – ...)?  --Lambiam 20:16, 10 June 2019 (UTC)
There's inops, possibly virops, Ops (besides Opis). But correctly it would still be *ops or opis (genitive, nominative not attested) with a "--" for the nominative in the inflection table. --Pitza Guy (talk) 16:17, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Should terms like these be moved to the Reconstruction namespace? That way we could keep the information, and still link to it from other entries, but we avoid potential errors of speculation about lemmata. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 15:10, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Is the entire term unattested, or just the nominative singular? What form(s) are attested? —Mahāgaja · talk 16:44, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
From what I gathered, some non-lemma forms are attested. I meant that the lemma should be moved to a Reconstruction namespace, not the attested forms. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 22:06, 16 September 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: understatement.

I do not know this use of the Czech word zmírnění, but I may be wrong. google books:zmírnění. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:22, 7 June 2019 (UTC)


Doesn't Gaulish normally preserve endings, like in *matis? —Rua (mew) 12:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

It's conceivable this was found in an inscription where the ending is missing (e.g. the stone is broken), which a scholarly edition would probably render as mat[is]. I never know what we should do with cases like that, or with scribal errors in manuscripts. —Mahāgaja · talk 17:33, 15 June 2019 (UTC)


--2001:16A2:51CD:8C00:3:9D23:D901:45A3 19:50, 13 June 2019 (UTC)


kinda obscure French internet slang. --I learned some phrases (talk) 10:47, 14 June 2019 (UTC)


Swedish. Along with kd, seems to be uppercase. --I learned some phrases (talk) 10:54, 14 June 2019 (UTC)


This etymology is complete nonsense and should be deleted. It also makes me wonder how many {{R:lv:LEV}} sourced etymologies should be deleted as well. --{{victar|talk}} 20:06, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

@Victar You meant to use {{rfv-etymology}} and post this under WT:ES. This template and this page are for doubts about the existence of the term itself.
Can you elaborate how the etymology is nonsense? It makes sense to me, although the likelihood is diminished by the claim of a byform for the term for a goat – it doesn’t go against something we know but rather too much into things we don’t know? And the part about “In Latvian, the term expanded” is irrelevant since meaning shifts from leather and animal hide and human hide are not surprising, so I would delete it anyway. Fay Freak (talk) 00:22, 16 June 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "Qoo." WT:BRAND? —Suzukaze-c 22:02, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Cited. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:27, 21 October 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense for the sense "terrific" (very good). Pablussky (talk) 17:15, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

sugo (Italian)Edit

Rfv-sense of "gravy", previously deleted out of process by an IP. Treccani has this sense. [121] ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 07:35, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

English-style gravy is virtually unknown in Italian cuisine. The concept that perhaps comes closest is sugo d’arrosto. When used without further qualifications for a sauce, every Italian will assume sugo is short for sugo di pomodoro, which refers to a tomato-based sauce. You can also use sugo di carne to mean a meat-based sauce, as seen in this old cookbook. I think, though, that one would not call such a sauce “gravy”, but rather a “meat sauce”.  --Lambiam 21:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "(normally considered offensive, often considered vulgar, ethnic slur) A dark-skinned person, especially a person of, or primarily of, black African descent", removed by an IP as "I am italian and I have never once heard the word "tizzone" used in that way. There's no trace of it anywhere on the internet that I could find of, and the italian page doesn't mention it either". — surjection?〉 10:18, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

  • Not in my paper dictionaries. Delete SemperBlotto (talk) 09:04, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
    That's not how this works. Have you even considered that maybe your paper dictionaries don't cover racist slurs? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:57, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
    Yeah. The arguments become stranger and stranger. It’s one of the most valuable parts of Wiktionary that we have words that fall under the radar, that aren’t covered and aren’t known by those people who else curate dictionaries. If you haven’t heard certain words, it also comes from a state of privilege. “I am Italian”, “I am German” ends up to be like “I have been brought up in the polite society”.
    That being said, if one listens to Italian rap music oftener one will probably stumble upon this word, as Metaknowledge’s quote has shown. Fay Freak (talk) 16:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
    Indeed, this is RFV driven by WT:ATTEST, and for Italian, paper dictionaries do not even count toward attestation. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:17, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
    @Fay Freak: I know this is real, at least in Sicilian (as used in the US), but I don't know how to search rap lyrics or sift through all the uses of the literal meaning, so I think it's up to you to save this one. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:16, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
    @Metaknowledge Yeah but I have never learned Italian, let alone listened to raps in it, i.e. I am no active user of it yet, so I don’t know to search certain words or constructions to find certain things. (You might also create a Sicilian entry with a quote which will have a similar value.) Where are the Italians anyhow? None on Wiktionary apparently? (Oh, the last one was Angelucci, you know what happened. No Italians in the recent changes to Italian lemmas.) Fay Freak (talk) 11:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)


Only Google results are for nature parks (?) and a claim about the epithet on the French Wikipedia... sourced to a dead link on the website of the National Park Service, which makes the claim in passing. — surjection?〉 15:16, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

  • The derivation listed seems to make sense (ka (the) + wahine (woman) + ʻai (to eat) + honua (earth)), but that seems very unlikely to be used as a given name... ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 15:41, 19 June 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense Used in various Brazilian funk song, such as, and


Rfv-sense: "raccoon dog" and "civet cat". — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense (Arabic): “to research; to explore, to search; to know well, to know by experience“-- 14:18, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Feel free to reorganize the senses to describe what you think the word means. The concepts (which are also scrammed together from Hans Wehr and co.) are very close together and in many contexts replaceable. If one has tried and experienced one also knows by experience etc., and knows well if one has done it enough. Fay Freak (talk) 22:29, 28 June 2019 (UTC)


Uncited form. I doubt this can be properly cited as an independent word. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 01:32, 26 June 2019 (UTC)


Malagasy. Not found in kôiôty in Malagasy dictionaries at and even google:kôiôty finds almost nothing. Pinging Corsicanwarrah to help us find citations or sources to support WT:ATTEST. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:08, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

@Dan Polansky I just came across it on the Malagasy Wiktionary entry for 郊狼. Here. It's also on the other Malagasy Wiktionary entries for other foreign words for 'coyote' (but the word kôiôty itself is not an entry on the Malagasy Wiktionary.) Back then I wasn't aware of the CFI rules. --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 18:34, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I find on the History page of the MG WT kôiôty entry that there have only been three edits, all apparently by bot user Bot-Jagwar. So I'm not sure anything there should be taken without a grain of salt, as it were. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 15:59, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
@Corsicanwarrah: Thank you. Other Wiktionaries are not reliable sources for the purpose of the English Wiktionary. Terms only found in other Wiktionaries are liable to be deleted. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:42, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
I have also fallen foul of this, seen below on this list. However, the only link on Google for kôiôty that doesn’t relate to Wiktionary is Mitarika ireo fanahy, which uses the word once. After using Google Translate, the section where it is used seems to talk about how sheep are 'killed by wild animals such as lions or coyotes'. Obviously, this is not a reputable source or translation, but it does show an example of its use. -- DPUH (talk) 21:09, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

July 2019Edit

gen pl vicumEdit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): Does not appear to exist. This is a defective noun with only certain cases attested. As those attestations are very frequent, I would expect the missing forms to be truly missing, not simply unattested. Benwing2 (talk) 01:32, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Same goes for dative singular vicī and maybe vocative plural vicēs. Benwing2 (talk) 01:36, 1 July 2019 (UTC)


Esperanto for quern. See also the discussion at Talk:manmuelejo. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:11, 1 July 2019 (UTC)


A great word if it can be cited from durably archived sources, but I'm having trouble finding any; it appears to be largely theoretical. There's a mention on soc.culture.esperanto, but that's all. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 15:16, 4 July 2019 (UTC)


Malagasy. Not in epistemolojia in Malagasy dictionaries at Does DPUH know how to verify the entry to meet WT:ATTEST, e.g. by providing quotations of use? --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:10, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

kuono, agvaraoEdit

Esperanto. Testaro gives nothing. Can only find on Wikipedia and a dictionary that was published last year. --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 14:26, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


See edit history comments, was requested for speedy deletion. @Lbdñk as deletion requester. - TheDaveRoss 12:39, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

k, m, qEdit

Should be K., M., Q. (cp. Category:Latin praenominal abbreviations). --Brown*Toad (talk) 09:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)


Because of the missing dot it looks English and not Latin. --Brown*Toad (talk) 09:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)


Possibly should be mag̃ro, cp. [122], [123], [124]. BTW: Similary ptate (properly ptãte as in [125], [126]?), hmoi might be wrong... --Brown*Toad (talk) 09:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

As to the latter, I see ħmoi, ħmõi and hm̃oi, but also (because of limited typographical capabilities?) vanilla hmoi.  --Lambiam 07:58, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

not.-Tir., n.-Tir.Edit

"-" makes no sense (in Latin). --Brown*Toad (talk) 09:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

True, but the same can be said for a full stop to denote an abbreviation; yet, the latter is conventionally applied all over the place. Note that we also have n.-Tir. I believe the corresponding versions without hyphens (not. Tir., n. Tir.) are in use but unoccupied here, and so it appears safe to move them to that spelling.  --Lambiam 10:09, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
German and Latin not. Tir., Not. Tir., not. Tiron., Not. Tiron. (also with capital in Latin) can easily be found (Latin: [127], [128], [129], [130], [131], [132], [133], [134]).
[135], [136] have not. tiron..
I had no luck finding n./N. tiron./Tiron., n./N. tir./Tir. (in any combination regarding capitalisation) or any hyphenated form.
not. Tiron. had, for whatever reason, "|head=not.-Tīrōn." with hyphen. Based on that, I too would assume that "-" was incorrectly added (in a hypercorrectly Frenchy way?). --Brown*Toad (talk) 21:03, 12 July 2019 (UTC)
I guess I was fooled by occurrences of n. Tir. as seen here, but examination reveals that the juxtaposition of n. and Tir. is incidental and that Tir. stands for Tirocinium.  --Lambiam 07:47, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin albicillaEdit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): I strongly suspect this is an erroneous adjective created by someone who didn't know Latin genders very well rather than a noun. In particular, it is used in Haliaeetus albicilla, which was originally named Falco albicilla. I suspect the person who chose the name Falco albicilla thought that falcō was feminine rather than masculine (an easy mistake to make), and accordingly used the feminine of albicillus (white-tailed). This error was then propagated when the genus was renamed. Benwing2 (talk) 05:35, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

A taxonomist would say that the species was moved to a new genus, not that the genus was renamed (Falco is still the correct genus for most falcons). The specific epithet is supposed to agree with the generic name when it's an adjective, but in this case it may be a noun "in apposition" as the International Code of Zoological Nomenclature puts it. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:28, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
Here] is the original publication. If Linnaeus had thought that Falco was feminine, you would think that some of the other specific epithets would be feminine, but none of them seem to be. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:13, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz Thanks, that's very helpful. Benwing2 (talk) 11:27, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin manuculus: Attested or not?Edit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): Latin manuculus is marked as "Vulgar Latin", and many sources put a star by it indicating it's reconstructed. Can we attest it? Benwing2 (talk) 06:18, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Often stars are put wrongly or after obsolete or uninformed sources. With references and several variants and even several derivatives mentioned by Wilhelm Heraeus Die Sprache des Petronius und die Glossen p. 45 bottom. I note and link here the earlier form maniculus in Apuleius book 9. The Thesaurus linguae latinae has manuculus too. Fay Freak (talk) 11:37, 13 July 2019 (UTC)


Chinese. Has the term been used outside the Nanfang Caomu Zhuang and sources which quote it? I requested its creation but back then I was a bit shaky on the CFI rules. --Corsicanwarrah (talk) 04:07, 15 July 2019 (UTC)


Spanish, "internet: to kick". I see mentions but only one or two uses on Google Books. Ultimateria (talk) 23:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)


Spanish. Tagged but not listed. Ultimateria (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I expect this can be attested in the spelling Buffyverso: [137], [138], [139], [140]. While this does not count for attestation purposes, I note that there is an article Buffyverso on the Spanish Wikipedia.  --Lambiam 08:28, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam: It appears you have provided only two durably archived sources. Am I correct in this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:01, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
Not being Hispanophone, I find it difficult to assess the durability of these sources, which is why I did not claim attestability but hedged the statement with the help of “expect”. But I also did not search particularly hard, so I still expect a diligent search will turn up a sufficient number of usable attestations, like perhaps in Google groups, or on RTVE, or in the Spanish edition of the NYT. This page of the Spanish-language book De la estaca al martillo shows the word “Buffyverso” high up; the book apparently even contains a contribution entitled “Angel. La expansión del Buffyverso: El vampiro a la sombra de la Cazadora.”  --Lambiam 04:27, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Latin extrēusEdit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): Claimed to be a variant of exter. I think it's maybe a typo for extrēmus. Added by @DCDuring. Benwing2 (talk) 04:17, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Note that there is an entry extreus in Charles du Fresne du Cange’s Glossarium Mediæ et Infimæ Latinitatis (augmented edition, 1883–1887) with a rather different meaning.  --Lambiam 06:24, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Even for Medieval Latin this seems morphologically implausible. Fay Freak (talk) 11:27, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
Entered from a "Wanted page" that was about to be deleted. DCDuring (talk) 12:16, 20 July 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam I'd like to fix this entry. Per Du Cange, is this a noun? What does "Abortivus, qui de exercitio ejicitur extra" mean exactly? It looks something like "Premature birth, which is pushed out due to exertion". Is that right? Benwing2 (talk) 00:38, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
If I interpret du Cange’s entry correctly, he is copying this from the dictionary by Papias. Since abortivus is an adjective, I guess the entry implies that extreus is also one. I’d translate the defn. as “Delivered prematurely, that which is cast outside by exercise”. Note that du Cange thinks this line is corrupt, as he adds that excercitio is “strongly to be read” as exsicio or excicio – which I in turn suppose is to be read as excisio (“excision”). The reference to the entry encimum suggests murder rather than C section. Disclaimer: My proficiency in Latin has not progressed beyond what I learned 60 years ago in Latin school.  --Lambiam 07:10, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
In a list of remarks from 1870 by one Anton Miller on a glossary contained in the Codex latinus 6210 (Bavarian State Library) we find the form Extrea (presumably occurring in the glossary), with a reference to Papias. This strengthens the supposition that we are dealing with an adjective.  --Lambiam 13:47, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam Thanks; I've tried to fix the entry. Benwing2 (talk) 04:46, 25 July 2019 (UTC)


This looks suspiciously like an attempt by banned user UtherPendrogn to reconstruct the original source of the name "Rowena" based on the original etymology in that entry. The only occurrences in Google seem to trace back to us, but the Old English letters þ/ð and ƿ complicate things. The lack of coverage of names in reference works doesn't help. There's a couple of non-durable hits for "Hroðwyn", one of which cites "E.G. Withycombe, The Oxford Dictionary of English Christian Names, pg 259", but I can't view that work to see if it refers to an actual Old English name or a hypothetical one. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:24, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin annulātus meaning "one-year-old"Edit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): L+S and Gaffiot only mention a meaning "ringed" (variant of ānulātus). Benwing2 (talk) 21:15, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

I haven't been able to find this meaning anywhere, but it's certainly conceivable since -ātus is a productive suffix forming descriptive adjectives from nouns. The actual word that means this is anniculus. Brutal Russian (talk) 18:29, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin vetātus "forbidden"Edit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): Classical participle is vetitus. The progression to vetātus would be logical but Du Cange only lists a different meaning "striped, made of twigs". Did this ever mean "forbidden" and if so, when? Benwing2 (talk) 05:16, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

”Transeuntes autem Phrygiam et Galatiae regionem, vetati sunt a Spiritu Sancto loqui verbum Dei in Asia.“ (Actus Apostolorum 16:6, Biblia Sacra Vulgata). This seems to be the only locus.  --Lambiam 08:01, 21 July 2019 (UTC)
Quote from An Introduction to Vulgar Latin: “The ending -ĭtus, in the first conjugation, generally fell into disuse: [...] vetitus > vetatus”.  --Lambiam 13:58, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
Georges: "Vulg. Perf. vetavit, Pers. 5, 90. Serv. Verg. Aen. 2, 201. Past. Herm. 3, 9, 6 Pal., vetastis, Itala Luc. 11, 52 Cant., vetassent, Epit. Iliad. 250, vetatus est, Itala act. apost. 17, 15, vetati sunt, Vulg. act. apost. 16, 6: vetati sulci, Chalcid. Tim. 153." 3 places for vetatus/vetati. --Trangomaron (talk) 09:36, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin persecātus "dissected"Edit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): Similar to above. The proper past passive participle is persectus. Does persecātus exist and if so when did it come into existence? Benwing2 (talk) 05:19, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Quote from An Introduction to Vulgar Latin: “In the first conjugation -ātus was preserved and was extended to all verbs: [...] sectus > secatus”.  --Lambiam 14:04, 24 July 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam Sure; you can see this in the Romance languages. But this doesn't mean that such words are necessarily attested in *Latin* texts, and even if they are, I'd like to indicate what era to make clear this isn't Classical. Benwing2 (talk) 04:41, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
The fact that the quoted source puts asterisks in front of some forms, but not secatus, strongly suggests that the latter is attested in Vulgar Latin. This does not imply that this extends to persecātus, of course. All we know is that any attestations are unlikely to be Classical Latin.  --Lambiam 08:42, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
Georges: "Perf. im Vulgärlat. auch secavi, wov. secarunt, Corp. inscr. Lat. 6, 30112: secarit, Serv. Verg. Aen. 5, 2: Partiz. Fut. Akt. secaturus, Colum. 5, 9, 2.: Partiz. Perf. Pass. secatus, Corp. inscr. Lat. 5, 5049, 12. de Rosci inscr. Christ. Vol. I. p. 265. Vulg. 4. Esdr. 4, 32. Commodian. apol. 514 (510)." But that's secare and secatus, not persecatus.

Latin sepeleōEdit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): Given as an alternative form of sepeliō. No Google Books hits at all for the past participle sepeletus, and no non-bogus ones that i can see for the lemma sepeleo. Benwing2 (talk) 19:54, 21 July 2019 (UTC)


Suzukaze-c 06:28, 23 July 2019 (UTC)


Catalan for Esperantologist. Ultimateria (talk) 18:42, 23 July 2019 (UTC)


(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): This is defined as "Vulgar Latin form of auctorō". The comment says "attested by Brodsky in Spanish Vocabulary: An Etymological Approach" but I can't find any attestations in Google Books. Benwing2 (talk) 04:39, 25 July 2019 (UTC)

[141]. I would not describe this as “attested by”. The following two sources state that French octroi comes from auctoricare, auctorare: [142], [143]; the latter calls this Late Latin. (Our entry derives octroi from Late Latin auctorizare.)  --Lambiam 17:11, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam Thanks. I think the derivation from auctorizare is more likely via *auctoridiare > *aut(o)reiar > *otroier. The form auctoricare is undoubtedly at the origin of Spanish otorgar but might well have produced OF *otorgier instead (compare carricare > chargier). Benwing2 (talk) 14:17, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
BTW I don't consider the fact that the above source says "Late Latin auctoricare, auctorare" as an attestation. Benwing2 (talk) 14:19, 26 July 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense "omelet". I have never heard of this and didn't find it in general dictionaries, but perhaps this usage is Belgian (the entry originally only had a Southern diminutive). ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:27, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

It depends on your definition of omelet. If you add a small amount of flour and milk, it will still be an omelet. If you add a lot, the result will be a cake. Where does it stop being an omelet? This eierkoek recipe calls it “neither an omelet nor a pannenkoek, but something in between”. This set of recipes for an omelet first uses the term eierkoek for an omelet in statu frigendi, and then proclaims a few lines later that an eierkoek is in a sense also an omelet except thicker. And here a Colombian omelet is said to be a kind of Spanish tortilla, which is called an eierkoek. Such pan-baked eierkoek is andere koek than the commercial pre-packaged eierkoek available in Dutch supermarkets. Perhaps a definition such as “omelet-like pancake“ can be used.  --Lambiam 11:21, 26 July 2019 (UTC)
The cake sense has already been added, but feel free to modify it as you see fit. The definition of this sense simply read "omelet", which is a highly deficient definition if the cake was meant regardless of the semantics of "omelet". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:49, 29 July 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: (noun) stupid person; fool; idiot. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:54, 27 July 2019 (UTC)


Verifying entry {{zh-see|媽媽|ss}}: the second-round simplified form of 媽媽妈妈 (māma). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:27, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin balnea singularEdit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): @Lambiam We have an entry for balnea singular genitive balneae that says it's an uncommon synonym of balneum, and the page on balneum likewise says balnea (singular) is an occasional variant. Is this true? It's not mentioned in LS or Gaffiot. Benwing2 (talk) 12:57, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

It is used in the singular in a letter by Marcus Aurelius quoted here. The Medieval Latin term balneum Mariae (bain-marie) occurs as balnea Mariae e.g. here.  --Lambiam 13:20, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Ugh, Latin boson, neuter or not?Edit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): I don't even know if this is a real New Latin word or not, and the headword and conjugation disagree on whether it's neuter. I searched for occurrences of "bosonem" but this isn't helpful because there appears to be a name whose accusative is "Bosonem", used in a religious context. Benwing2 (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

@Lambiam Benwing2 (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
Also prōton, neutron. The Latin Wikipedia says prōton is masculine. Who knows if these terms are actually attested, though. Benwing2 (talk) 19:28, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
Boson is also seen to be masculine in the Latin Wikipedia, in the article Gluon (“boson qui vim fortem mediatur”). Obviously, all these particles have the same -on ending and should have the same gender and declension (which is the third declension on the Latin Wikipedia). Based on their etymologies, it would be reasonable to expect the neuter gender for the first ons to be named, electron (from ἤλεκτρ(ον) +‎ (ἰ)όν) and proton (from πρῶτον) (and indeed they are neuter in modern Greek, but with the ending -όνιο). But Norstedts svensk-latinska ordbok lists these words as masculine (again according to the Latin Wikipedia).  --Lambiam 19:58, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
@Lambiam@Benwing2@Fay Freak Is there actually such a declension pattern as NOM.SG. short -on/oblique -ōn? I'm aware of the opposite, esp. in Medieval Latin, but a short -on to me absolutely presupposes the o-stem declension. Brutal Russian (talk) 20:49, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
If only Lucretius had written about the topic; then we could tell from the metre. I don’t know if we should expect any of the old rules concerning vowel length to apply to Subatomic Latin.  --Lambiam 22:04, 18 August 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: "(informal, offensive) An incredibly stupid person." - anyone who knows? --Robbie SWE (talk) 19:08, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Latin Serantis (place name)Edit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): @Lambiam Name of a castle in Galicia. Evidently attested in a single inscription in the ablative as Serante. No gender. Unknown nom sg. One of the cited sources actually lists it as Serantum. What do we do in a case like this? Benwing2 (talk) 20:01, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

The name is probably the Latinization of a Celtic proper noun, and different people may have Latinized it differently – but if the sole attestation is that inscription, then Serantum must be in error. I do not know what we do in such cases in general, but I think we should say that for lack of attestations the gender and declension (including the nominative) are uncertain. (For all we know the nom. could be Serans – see this snippet.)  --Lambiam 20:24, 27 July 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-senses in Spanish section: abbreviations for Saarland (they don't speak Spanish there) and South Sumatra (not Spanish-speaking there's not even a bleedin' L in the word!). I'm assuming a n00b screwed up. --Gibraltar Rocks (talk) 11:41, 28 July 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense in Esperanto. This should be fun to search for... a texting abbreviation of mi (me, I). --Gibraltar Rocks (talk) 17:04, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

also, V should mean vi (you). I hope we can find a cute text message saying "I love you" in Esperanto. --Gibraltar Rocks (talk) 17:09, 28 July 2019 (UTC)
I have already added all those abbreviations to RFV before, here they are. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 17:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


Very unusual form for Dutch, I have only found an attestion here. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:38, 29 July 2019 (UTC)


I believe this is unattested and should be moved to a reconstruction. Leasnam (talk) 01:53, 30 July 2019 (UTC)


This looks like a misspelling of rikani. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 03:00, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

August 2019Edit

Latin Aunes = AuniosEdit

(Notifying Metaknowledge, Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): Aunes is claimed to be the Medieval Latin equivalent of Aunios, found in Pliny. The listed declension makes no sense (genitive Auniī) and I can't find any attestations. I'm inclined to just delete it straight away as nonsense but would like to see if anyone can attest it. Benwing2 (talk) 05:28, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

@Lambiam Benwing2 (talk) 05:34, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
The heck, @Froaringus probably mistyped or something like that. First created as Aunis, then moved to Aunes, then the content to Aunios but not bringing it over to put a {{delete}} to Aunes. It’s a thing made up in his mind, sure. Fay Freak (talk) 12:05, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Sorry with Aunis, it was a mistype and I later forgot about it. The correct form, present in local Medieval Latin charters (CODOLGA) is Aunes.--Froaringus (talk) 12:16, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Latin farsEdit

(Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): @Lambiam I don't think this is a word. It was added Feb 2019 and isn't found in L+S or Gaffiot. Benwing2 (talk) 02:41, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

It's in the Oxford Latin Dictionary, but in parentheses because the nominative is not attested. It lists the following attestations:
<com>esa farte -- Plautus, fragmenta incerta 143;
(facetiously) non uestem amatores amant mulieri', sed uestis fartim -- Mostellaria 169
(figuratively) fartem (conjecture) facere ex hostibus -- Miles Gloriosus 8
Since these are all from Plautus, it should be categorized as Old Latin. --Lvovmauro (talk) 03:14, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
@Lvovmauro Plautus isn't exactly considered Old Latin normally, but these attestations seem questionable, given their labeling as "conjecture" and "fragmenta incerta". fartim is a potentially separate adverb. Benwing2 (talk) 03:46, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Plautus is Old Latin. [144] by the way mentions distinctions and different senses of "Old Latin". --Pitza Guy (talk) 08:12, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Stop this. As I have mentioned for example on Wiktionary:Tea room/2019/July § Vocative of nouns in -ēius and -ius Plautus is Old Latin in some sense, but what that “Old Latin” on Wiktionary is referring to is Latin even older than that. “Inscriptional Latin” that is old enough that you cannot easily understand it. Fay Freak (talk) 13:10, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
No. Plautus is Old Latin. That Wiktionary might misuse the term "Old Latin" in an arbitrary and self-defined way to mean something else doesn't change this fact. --Pitza Guy (talk) 20:23, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Latin oogenesisEdit

(Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): @Lambiam This is undoubtedly a word in English and various other modern languages, but I see no evidence that this is a Latin word. Benwing2 (talk) 03:48, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

weirdwife (Scots)Edit

I can only attest this on Google Books as an English word. The plural seems wrong as well, I can only find results for "weirdwives". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:08, 5 August 2019 (UTC)


Given name. — surjection?〉 20:35, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Latin escaioEdit

(Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): @Lambiam Yes, Niermeyer lists escaire as a byform of excadere (along with escadere, eschadere, excidere). But do we really want to include every random misspelling by a semi-illiterate Medieval writer in Wiktionary? Can it even pass CFI? I would rather remove this and if we want to include it at all, just list it as an alternative form of excadō. Benwing2 (talk) 05:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Can pass WT:CFI, if there's a durably archived usage. Or why shouldn't it? --Trangomaron (talk) 21:29, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


Esperanto for "meteorite". There seems to be one result on Google Books, though I can't see the preview. Most websites seems to have mentions. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:49, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


Esperanto, it seems that this occurs just once in a translation of Baron Munchausen. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:12, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: A nickname for Kim Jong-un. 鑫胖 is used, but is used by itself to refer to Kim Jong-un? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 15:05, 8 August 2019 (UTC)


Adverbs derived from second-class adjectives normally end in -iter (as in serviliter), not . Canonicalization (talk) 16:00, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

L&S: "Hence, adv., like a slave, slavishly, servilely. a servile: gemens, Claud. B. Gild. 364.", Georges: "Acc. neutr. poet. st. des Adv., servile gemens, Claud. b. Gild. 364." --Trangomaron (talk) 21:19, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
"Acc. neutr. poet.": so that would be servīlĕ with a short , not with the adverbial suffix . Also, L&S states that "Comp. and sup. of the adj. and adv. do not occur", yet Latisc added them. Canonicalization (talk) 21:42, 8 August 2019 (UTC)
Here is the one adverbial use by Claudian, in De Bello Gildonico: servile gemens. The pitiful moans come from a captured lion, called a monstrum by the Emperor’s father-in-law relating a prophetic dream. Might it be that the neuter form servile is in agreement with the neuter noun monstrum?  --Lambiam 09:34, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
Not answering your question, but having scanned the dactylic hexameter, I can confirm it's a short . Canonicalization (talk) 14:12, 10 August 2019 (UTC)


No hits in Tekstaro. I have never seen this word before. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contribs) 21:41, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


Spanish. I see tons of products with this word in the name but no usable cites. Ultimateria (talk) 01:42, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

[145], [146], [147], [148], [149].  --Lambiam 10:58, 12 August 2019 (UTC)


This was listed in a translation table for "malevolent," but I can only find a single instance of its use in literature, with nothing on soc.culture.esperanto either. So I've created both the entry and the RFV... פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 13:32, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Additionally I think if this can be verified, it'd make a good foreign word of the day, assuming it analyzes as mal/bon/avid/a, which I'm not even sure of. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 13:34, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
One would expect an adjective bonavida of which this is the negation, like malbonintenca is the negation of bonintenca.  --Lambiam 17:22, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Not necessarily; I think it better analyzes as "avida de malbono". I suppose you could also speak of a person as "avida de bono", but it doesn't seem to have the same evocative effect. פֿינצטערניש (Fintsternish), she/her (talk) 19:10, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Southwestern Tai/khaauEdit

Request added by @Octahedron80. Pinging @Alifshinobi (the creator of the entry) as well. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 18:40, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

This should be *qawᶜ (comparing to PT *C̬.qawᶜ) according to Pittayaporn's revised system (this word is not mentioned in the document however.) By the way, "kh" can be interpreted as *kʰ-, *x-, *q-, or *χ-. Thai ข้าว is only one that prolongs vowel.--Octahedron80 (talk) 03:17, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
If you want to see the document, I have it here: [150] --Octahedron80 (talk) 03:43, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


Esperanto for "prostitute". One durable cite in Beletra Almanako, but are there any others? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:43, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

I haven't seen it used in other works, and my googles aren't turning up any. It was probably a nonce euphemism. Feel free to delete it. ~ Röbin Liönheart (talk) 13:56, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


"breakwater", Ido. Doesn't seem citable. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:53, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


Ido for a certain pygmy owl. A pretty calque from German, but it looks like a dictionary-only word. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:56, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


Volapük for "librarian". Bukem and bukemöp are citable, but this seemingly isn't. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:26, 15 August 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense quăter , adv. num. quattuor, I.four times: “quater in anno pariunt,” Varr. R. R. 3, 10; Verg. A. 2, 242; Hor. S. 2, 3, 1.—With other numerals: “quater quinis minis,” Plaut. Ps. 1, 3, 111: “quater deni,” forty, Ov. M. 7, 293: “quater decies,” fourteen times, Cic. Verr. 2, 1, 39, § 100: “quater centies,” Vitr. 10, 14. —Freq. in phrase: ter et quater, ter aut quater, or terque quaterque, three and (or) four times, i. e. over and over again, often, extremely: “ter et quater Anno revisens aequor,” Hor. C. 1, 31, 13: “corvi presso ter gutture voces Aut quater ingeminant,” Verg. G. 1, 410: “terque quaterque solum scindendum,” id. ib. 2, 399: “terque quaterque beati,” id. A. 1, 94: “o mihi felicem terque quaterque diem,” Tib. 3, 3, 26. —This unsigned comment was added by (talk) at 10:14, 17 August 2019 (UTC).

The gloss “often” seems to derive from idioms like the phrases you have mentioned. It can be used liberally in poetry as numbers often, and while it can be appropriate to translate such things with “dreimal und öfter” and the like, it is not appropriate to gloss it like that. quater means “four times” and not “many times”, period. “Four” does not mean “often”, nothing to argue here, I will delete that gloss it right away, well following it having RFV-sense tag since 1 June 2019‎, anyway. If somebody goes over to adding senses “many” to English numbers like “twenty” or “several” to “six” based on poetical expressions or contexts where the exact value is not relevant we would declare him insane. Fay Freak (talk) 23:31, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
We had an entry 77 times defined as “An unlimited number”, but the entry has been deleted, together with the history record revealing its insane creator.  --Lambiam 12:07, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Actually, it was an IP from Quincy College.  --Lambiam 12:10, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Latin odeō, odīre; podeōEdit

(Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): @Lambiam Claimed to be an alternative form of odiō; conjugated like . Is it real? Benwing2 (talk) 16:56, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Also podeō. Benwing2 (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
@Benwing2 I don't remember seeing anything like that the last time I researched the various forms of the former verb, or ever. The closest thing to other one seems to be this medieval macaronic form (also see podibat in the end of the article). Brutal Russian (talk) 12:21, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@Brutal Russian Thanks. I will delete odeō. As for podeō, this is supposed to be a variant of pudeō rather than possum. BTW when you say "medieval macaronic form" are you referring to spellings like "aucturetate" (like in the podibat article you cited) for "auctoritate"? What happens if someone wants to add a spelling like this to Wiktionary? My instinct is not to include them, otherwise the categories could be overwhelmed with such variant spellings. I asked the same question earlier with regards to escaiō, a macaronic spelling of excido. For that entry, someone actually created a full paradigm escaiō, escaīre with a Classical pronunciation, which seems very bogus. Benwing2 (talk) 15:23, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@Benwing2 Yeah, it is indeed a different verb. Aucturetate is an actual Late Latin/Medieval spelling, this type of vowel confusion is absolutely ubiquotous in Gallia after the 4th century (basically random chance error rate) as well as elsewhere a bit later. Podibat on the other hand is precisely the same macaronic type as odiātus and escaio, a Romance form minimally adapted to Latin morphology. I did see your question, and it's more or less the same one I had asked in the above-mentioned discussion - it seems like people generally feel the same way, but can't quite decide to do something about it. In my opinion before we decide what to do with these forms, we should sort out what are actual (ante-/post-)Classical alternative forms that currently reside under Category:Latin_misspellings, as well as the one macaronic form there, and then also sort out the whole Vulgar Latin thing, which for the time being I'm not sure what it's supposed to represent exactly - seems like a general dump for anything non-standard regardless of period, style and attestation. Where would be the best place to ask what's the working definition of Vulgar Latin on this website, and why this notoriously undefinable and largely rejected term has been chosen? Brutal Russian (talk) 16:25, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@Brutal Russian I think the best place to ask about Vulgar Latin would be the beer parlor. Benwing2 (talk) 16:42, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
@Brutal Russian For me “Vulgar Latin” is about style, register. It is also the same question whether a term is literary Arabic or dialectal. I as others have also spoken of “Vulgar Turkish” in reference to the diglossia of the Ottoman Empire. Many terms for one idea. This works everywhere where one writes significantly differently from how one speaks on the basis of a Dachsprache tradition.
Another question is why we have duplicates like “Vulgar Latin” Reconstruction:Latin/werra together with Medieval Latin werra. That’s a bloody joke, it’s the same word, I opt for deleting it. It’s not even that the Latin is reborrowed from Romance in this case, but even in such a case I tend to believe that the duplication should be refused. Fay Freak (talk) 16:46, 18 August 2019 (UTC)
Well, see, your attempt to define it already highlights the problem to me, seeing as it combines references to style and register - aspects of one language -, as well as to diglossia - which is quite the opposite! Moreover, modern scholarship expressly rejects the notion of Latin diglossia, while a separate phonology and dedicated inflection templates for a certain style or register of the same language is something I've yet to see a precedent for, anywhere! To quote one of the best books to read on the topic, Social Variation and the Latin Language by J. N. Adams:
"Many have tried to give Vulgar Latin a precise meaning {...}, but it has continued to generate confusion. Lloyd (1979) identified thirteen meanings that have been assigned to the term (no doubt many others could be found: see Poccetti, Poli and Santini 2005: 25) {...} In recent decades the inadequacy of ‘Vulgar Latin’ has been increasingly felt with the advance of sociolinguistics as a discipline. Analyses of social variations across well-defined social or occupational groups in modern speech communities are bound to show up traditional concepts of Vulgar Latin, however the phrase might be defined, as hopelessly vague."
The word you're referring to seems to show that two different people had two different ideas about what constitutes Vulgar Latin, both of them probably likewise "hopelessly vague" :) Brutal Russian (talk) 17:35, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Latin ratihabeōEdit

(Notifying Fay Freak, Brutal Russian, JohnC5): @Lambiam Appears to exist only as a noun ratihabitiō. Benwing2 (talk) 17:32, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

@Benwing2 Again you forget that Latin was used after antiquity. In this case it exists in legal writing of the Modern Age. Fay Freak (talk) 22:47, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Medieval, many instances in googelbooks. Brutal Russian (talk) 12:23, 18 August 2019 (UTC)


Ido, "abomasum". Nothing on Google Books. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 08:59, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


Ido for "whirlwind". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:03, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


Ido, "watermelon". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:13, 20 August 2019 (UTC)



Ido for "cork oak". ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 09:17, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


Rfv-sense: to warn. -- 14:46, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

RFV-failed. The sense was copied from Steingass, who himself created it probably on the basis of the irregular verbal noun of the IV stem نُذُر(nuḏur); on the same place the similar Wahrmund just has a “see IV”, while the Arabic originals and thus Freytag, Kazimirski, Lane etc. lack the sense. Don’t know why Ahrens glosses it so in his treatise, he probably was confused or careless in reconstructing senses; Jeffery just refers to him without comment. Fay Freak (talk) 11:39, 17 September 2019 (UTC)


Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 07:37, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


Supposedly a Bavarian noun - but not defined as one. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:17, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Part of speech was incorrect, but entry is properly attest. Bavarian is a WT:LDL and hence a single quote is enough to attest it and there is a quote. --Apauge (talk) 11:13, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
The article Boarische Schreibweis (Bavarian Orthography) on the Bavarian Wikipedia does not show any uses of the symbol “ɑ”. It does state that there is no standard orthography and that in literary use no special symbols are used, but that “ɑ̃” is us