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Geographyinitiative

Joined 19 October 2009

學習学习 (xuéxí)

This user is currently working on

  • learning Chinese
  • improving coverage of Chinese minor geography
  • adding second round simplified characters (二𫈉字) to Chinese entries
  • adding toneless final syllable variants (重·次輕詞語) to Chinese entries
  • creating and editing Chinese entries
  • adding and fixing Chinese pronunciations
  • adding and fixing glyph origin sections
Babel user information
en-N This user has a native understanding of English.
zh-3 这位用户的中文达到高级水平

Bopo-3
This user has an advanced understanding of Zhuyin.
cmn-3 This user has advanced knowledge of Mandarin Chinese.
zh-Hant-3 這位使用者會進階水準的 繁體中文
zh-Hans-3 这位用户的简体中文达到高级水平。
{{t}}-0 This user knows little about wiki templates and just mimics existing usage.
Users by language

Contents

QuotesEdit

"The term "ideographic" has been used not only by those who espouse its basic meaning but also by others who do not necessarily accept the concept but use the term out of mere force of habit as an established popular designation for Chinese characters. I find, to my chagrin, that in my previous publications I have been guilty of precisely this concession to popular usage without being aware of the damage it can cause. As a repentant sinner I pledge to swear off this hallucinogen. I hope others will join in consigning the term to the Museum of Mythological Memorabilia along with unicorn horns and phoenix feathers." (John DeFrancis, The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy, page 148.

  1. [Classical Chinese, trad.]
    [Classical Chinese, simp.]
    From: Tao Te Ching, 4th century BCE
    huò xī fú zhī suǒ yǐ, fú xī huò zhī suǒ fú [Pinyin]
    Misery! - happiness is to be found by its side! Happiness! - misery lurks beneath it!

Haichou/Hai3-chou1Edit

Is there any way that we can automatically generate the Wade Giles for two syllable concepts like 海州 or 爱心? I saw ‘aishin’ in an English language book. ∼∼∼∼ Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:56, 12 August 2018 (UTC) Geographyinitiative 5,600 EDITS

Component and stroke namesEdit

夂⻊扌

Unfinished Second Round Simplified Characters (二𫈉字) pagesEdit

The digital form of many second round simplified forms already exists. But in the case of some characters, no digital form of the second round simplified form has been created. There are plans to create digital forms for the second round simplified character forms of the following characters. [1] For the moment, I have added some basic information about the components of the second round simplified form of the following characters based on 第二次汉字简化方案(草案)1977年5月. At some point, the digital form of the following characters' second round simplified form should replace the component information I have provided.

耀曚曨朦朧矇矓

- looks identical to bopomofo symbol

- complex description ⿱⿱十⿵ㄇ丄双 used to represent the character

- extremely complex description ⿱⿻丅⿱冖⿰丶丶双 used to represent the character

Could only be solved with usage notes:

- second round simplification is also the current simplification; added usage notes

- second round simplification is also the commonly-used form; added usage notes

- variant and 2nd round simp.

- ancient and 2nd round simp.

蝌蚪 霹靂?

To be revisitedEdit

黃堡

Picture of 𣏥

Wiki statisticsEdit

Number of pages 6,429,873
Number of articles 5,811,155
Number of uploaded files 29
Number of registered users 3,475,341
Number of active users 1,564
Number of admins 99
Number of total edits 50,492,260

Wiktionary ToolsEdit

WT:LAYOUT

Template:zh-x#Tricks

. space between pinyin syllables

^ capitalize the first letter of a pinyin syllable

得-過{guo} no space in the pinyin but Chinese words separated 汉语拼音正词法基本规则6.1.2.1 "动词与后面的动态助词“着”、“了”、“过”,连写。例如:{...}jìnxíngguo (进行过)"

|ts=trad Traditional and Simplified the same

Module:zh/data/wordlist/1, from 教育部重編國語辭典修訂本

Template:zh-new

Template:Han char

Appendix:Unicode/Ideographic Description Characters

Ideas for Wiktionary 1Pleco-Wiktionary 2 Automatically add words to Compounds sectionEdit

1 I asked Mike Love about adding Wiktionary into Pleco somehow, but he didn't respond to that part of my email. If Wiktionary could be added into Pleco somehow, this part of Wiktionary would probably grow it's reader and editor base significantly. It would be a big thing for Chinese language studiers if every person learning or studying Chinese could contribute to Wiktionary via Pleco.

2 Apparently, the "Compounds" box on every character's page requires you to manually add every compound to the list of compounds. (Like this:)

Example:

Compounds

Isn't there a better way to add compounds to the Compounds boxes than to make some user manually add compounds to the relevant character pages? Can't it be set up so that any new word added to Wiktionary that contains a given Chinese character is automatically added to the relevant compound box ?

I hope to become a long-term contributor to Wiktionary. If I have to add every new geographical proper noun to the corresponding component characters' compounds boxes, I'm fine with that. But if it could be done automatically, then why not?

@Geographyinitiative: If the word is in Guoyu Cidian or Hanyu Da Cidian, then they can be added automatically using {{subst:zh-new/der}} (with |big=1 if it's in Hanyu Da Cidian). I'm not aware of any other way of automatically adding to the compounds/derived terms list. Maybe we can have a bot that does this, @Wyang, Suzukaze-c? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:25, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: BTW, you can bring this to WT:Beer parlour, which is for discussing issues that matter across entries. WT:Tea room is for individual words. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:26, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: About Pleco, I'm not so sure about that. Wiktionary is constantly updating, so unless Pleco keeps updating with weekly dumps or something, it's gonna be outdated very quickly. Also, editors probably won't be able to edit content on Pleco, which doesn't have that kind of functionality yet AFAIK. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
This is partially (multisyllables) tracked here: Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:tracking/zh-forms/compounds not mentioned in derived terms on the component pages. I haven't done content parsing with the bot using Pywikipedia before, so I'm not quite sure; a less intelligent method is to extract all the compound and derived info and analyse from those data pages. Another way is a js-based gadget that detects and automatically adds (upon click) the 詞 to its component page(s). Wyang (talk) 02:52, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative:: Hi. It would be great if Pleco included other Chinese lects as well. It only features Mandarin and Cantonese at the moment. Some topolects have a pretty good coverage at Wiktionary now. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Chinese: Alternate Characters (异体字) Edit

Two weeks ago, I added an alternate character to a character's page (), no problem. (see [2]). The result was perfect (looks like this: alt. forms ). Right.

Today I added an alternate character to another page () by the exact same method as above (see [3]). But for some reason, the alternate character appears on the page next to the character itself (looks like this: alt. forms ). Wrong.

请问, how can I get the /旗 out of the alternate character box on the 旗 page???

Thanks for any help! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:27, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

The issue has been resolved by User:Dokurrat (see [4]). The answer was to put an asterisk in front of the the alternate Chinese character form (yitizi). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:28, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

StuffEdit

They say you haven't learned something until you can explain it to someone else. All the edits I make are about helping me learn more about Chinese and other topics. I have no credentials to write an encyclopedia or a dictionary, but I am having a lot of fun.

Category:Han phono-semantic compounds

Criteria for inclusion Place names: The following place names should be included as long as they are attested: ... The names of primary administrative divisions (states, provinces, counties, etc). The names of conurbations, cities, towns, villages and hamlets. ...

Ideographic Description Characters-- My opinion: bad naming for a great concept

Do you know any other Category:Triplicated Chinese characters? We have about 80 so far-- also there's (I see it as a triplication) and one with three horses in a row that I can't type in a non-PUA character. Category:Quadruplicated Chinese characters Category:Duplicated Chinese characters

For more info about what I'm doing on Wiktionary and other wikis, please see my user page on Wikipedia.

沒有法子~muhyufatze


瓯海Edit

Hello again! The page for the simplified version of Ouhai currently looks like this:

For pronunciation and definitions of 瓯海 – see 甌海 (“[[w:Ouhai District”).

This is wrong: it should look like this:

For pronunciation and definitions of 瓯海 – see 甌海 (“Ouhai”).

How can I achieve this result? I don't know where to look or who to ask, and last time I asked at the tea room, it was you who responded anyway. I can't imagine what the code to achieve the correct result would be. Thanks for any help! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:06, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Technically you can ask at WT:Grease pit, but @Wyang or @Zcreator alt may be able to help. It has to do with this ([^\n}|]+) capture pattern not allowing |, but I don't know a good way to fix it. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 14:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
What about having the replace_gloss function only replace template names like {{place|zh to {{extract-t and creating the helper templates like {{extract-t}} to extract the appropriate parameters? (Hadn't tried this before, though.) --Dine2016 (talk) 15:51, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

Great Category! also...Edit

I love the category you made called Category:Triplicated Chinese characters. I added a bunch this morning. Also- I spoke with Chuck Entze about making a Category:zh:Communities for the 社区 of mainland China. I already made the page, but it doesn't automatically collect the new villages I add like Category:zh:Villages does. How can I make it go? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:59, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. There are also Duplicated and Quadruplicated character categories, if you are interested. With communities, I believe you also have to add it to Module:place/data. Wyang (talk) 04:21, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
I will check out the other categories. I save this information and figure this out later. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:59, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Fixed it. (Templates cannot be invoked in modules either, if their parameters are unknown, AFAIK.) Wyang (talk) 00:39, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Okay. I will remember that you have to write it like |t=Ouhai --Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:09, 28 April 2018 (UTC)


NotesEdit

沒有; etcEdit

Hello again: I recently added the tl=y to one of the pronunciations of 沒有, meaning that on page 866 of Xiandai Hanyu Cidian Ed 7 (and shiyongben, 5, & 6), 没有 is given the pronunciation méi•yǒu. At the same time, the on the 國語辭典 page, 沒有 is given the pronunciation ㄇㄟˊ ㄧㄡˇ (http://dict.revised.moe.edu.tw/cgi-bin/cbdic/gsweb.cgi?ccd=Wr6yV4&o=e0&sec=sec1&op=v&view=0-1). Therefore, I split the pronunciations into two- méiyǒu,tl=y 1nb=standard in Mainland and méiyǒu for 2nb=standard in Taiwan. My fear is, this edit looks goofy and very likely will be edited away at some point by someone who sees no difference between méi•yǒu and ㄇㄟˊ ㄧㄡˇ and that other editors (possibly including yourself) will support the change because at first glance, the Pronunciation box on the 沒有 page looks so awkward:

Mandarin

(Pinyin): méiyǒu, méiyǒu

(Zhuyin): ㄇㄟˊ ㄧㄡˇ, ㄇㄟˊ ㄧㄡˇ

Is there anyway to hint to readers that the first méiyǒu may be a little different from the second méiyǒu? What do you think of the whole tl=y situation overall? Also, are there any other specific things that I have done that you are still somewhat dissatisfied with? Thanks. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:11, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: I don't think it's necessary to split it like that. The tl=y is there because it's an optional toneless variant. In the Taiwanese standard, there is no 重次輕 type of thing, and in real life, the Taiwanese rarely use the toneless variant. We can just have |m=méiyǒu,tl=y and that should be fine. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:17, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Okay, makes sense, I will try to do other similar 重次輕 words I encounter in this way too. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:47, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

How to do the triplicatesEdit

@Geographyinitiative please use {{zh-ref|Triplicated}} so that it can be combined with other Chinese categories and properly sorted. Wyang (talk) 01:55, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Thoughts about the ShenyinbiaoEdit

I have added some interesting information for readers, including a reference, about the change in the pronunciation of . If this is good formatting, I will work on doing all the characters in all the 审音表 lists in this manner over the course of the coming months. (Also, I implemented the change you thougt best to the 没有 page. I'm not 100% happy with it, but it's okay by me.) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:25, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

It looks good at , but what do you mean by "all the characters in all the 审音表 lists"? I don't think all the characters need this information. Can you give me some examples of the characters that would be treated similarly? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Here's an example of one that I just did: . --There were three lists: one in 1957, one in 1959 and one in 1962. In 1985, the three lists were unified and changed slightly. In 2016, a new list based on the 1985 list came out with small changes. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:26, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
What was the pronunciation before liǎn? Was it liàn? — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 01:23, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
I can't be certain whether it had a different pronunciation before that list- it's slightly beyond the realm of things I know how to check at this point. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
If we don't know what the pronunciation was, how can we say it "changed"? That's why I was worried about putting this kind of information for every character in all the 审音表 lists. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:25, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
I thought that since Taiwan has lian4 as the reading, it might be interesting to understand some of the underpinnings of the lian3 pronunciation. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:28, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Well, both readings are not unexpected given the two pronunciations given in Guangyun. Taiwan's pronunciation isn't necessarily the "original" reading, so I don't really know why you bring up the Taiwanese reading. Taiwan has its own pronunciation standardization (國語一字多音審訂表), too. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 02:36, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Never heard of it! I wish that there were a dictionary that would tell you where the 國語一字多音審訂表 AND the mainland shenyinbiaos carried out shenyin. That's kind of what I'm getting at here. But I understand that adding this info may be seen as clutter or too tangential. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:41, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
There's 中華語文大辭典 (aka 兩岸詞典), but sometimes it gets the pronunciations wrong, especially for words with qingsheng. It's nevertheless still useful as a reference. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:47, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
I found that list you mentioned. Very cool. Yeah- I use the 兩岸詞典 dictionary in Pleco. My idea is: let the readers of this dictionary know more about the specifics of the shenyin that has been carried out: let them know about the different shenyin that have been carried out. That would make this dictionary even better than the 兩岸詞典, which just tells you the opinion they have about the difference between the two standards rather than telling you about the shenyin lists. Let readers know about the instances of the shenyin. Could be cool. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:59, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
I've removed the entire etymology section at for now. Firstly, it's not really an etymology but a bit of the history of the character's standard pronunciation. However, since these standards are not everything - these pronunciations must have existed before these standards came out. From what I can see, this character's history isn't really all that interesting; it's just that the two ministries of education chose different pronunciations. IMO, I think we probably just need to set up an about page for Mandarin that would list the standards we are basing our labels on. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:11, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
Also, 國語一字多音審訂表(初稿) is not yet official. The current standard is still 國語一字多音審訂表 from ROC 88 (1999). That's why what you wrote was highly misleading. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
I totally understand your concerns and revert. I apologize about the misleading edits to 敛- at present, I don't understand the subject well enough to make contributions in that area. "IMO, I think we probably just need to set up an about page for Mandarin"--- that would be interesting to me. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:22, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for adding the derived charactersEdit

The derived characters added to the translingual section may also include characters that were invented outside of China, such as Korean made Hanja 한국제 한자 (han-gukje hanja) 韓國國字, Japanese kokuji 日本國字 and also Vietnamese Nom characters. KevinUp (talk) 09:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Minor GeographyEdit

"Populated, legally recognized places are typically presumed to be notable, even if their population is very low." (WP:GEOLAND) You want me to create entries based on usefulness, but I am creating entries based on notability. If this doesn't satisfy wiktionary's policies of criteria for inclusion, then I will quit making these articles. In my ideal, all the village-level divisions, including 社区, would appear on wikipedia, wiktionary etc. The name of 中南财经政法大学南湖社区 doesn't look as pretty as the two-character names of many other 社区, but I found it in two sources, and it seems reasonable enough. No question that it administers thousands of people. To avoid including 中南财经政法大学南湖社区 is to say that Loving, where there are less than 100 people, is more important than this 社区, where there are thousands of people. The way I see it, all minor geography is minor and could be considered less useful than other work. But in fact, I'm setting down a foundation for a wiki world in which Chinese minor geography is more 完善. I have added some cities too. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:13, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

AjaxEdit.js questionEdit

Hello~~ I just saw your edit here: [6]. May I ask, does this mean there's a way to automatically add derived terms and compounds??? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 01:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: Sorry, it's not an automatic way to add derived terms, but a quicker way to edit right on the page without going to the edit page. You can try it out by adding importScript('User:Dixtosa/AjaxEdit.js'); to User:Geographyinitiative/common.js. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 11:55, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Suppressing Automatic Simplified Character in Variant Forms boxEdit

Problems with the alt. forms box of and Hello- sorry to bother you, but on the 堤 page, right now we see "alt. forms 隄/堤". 堤 obviously shouldn't be in the alt. forms box of 堤. Same with the 绱 in the alt. forms box on the 緔 page. I imagine there is some way to suppress the superfluous 堤 and 绱, but I can't imagine how to do it and I can't think of an analogous page which might give me the information would need to fix the problem. Can you give me any suggestions??? --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative Yes, please see my edits there. Wyang (talk) 12:39, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

How can 九 be on the xiàng page?Edit

How can 九 be on the xiàng page? The process by which the lists of characters on the pinyin pages which list all the characters with a particular one-syllable pinyin pronunciation were compiled needs to be reviewed. As you have probably noticed, I already have corrected some of these pages. Unfortunately, I haven't detected the pattern behind these errors yet- seems random. It seems like an ugly blemish on Wiktionary. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:27, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

I see. Thanks --Geographyinitiative (talk) 12:45, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Translations of chinese word componentsEdit

Do you know how the translations of the subwords in the chinese zh-forms boxes were generated? Is there code for a bot that I could look at? —This unsigned comment was added by User135711 (talkcontribs).

@‎User135711: According to Template:zh-forms: for single characters, the translations are from Module:zh/data/glosses; for multisyllabic words, the translations are from the entries in the mainspace. --Dine2016 (talk) 02:27, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article on:Edit

For and a hundred other articles, I added the template zh-wp which links to Chinese wikipedia. Although the content of the 不 zh.wiki article was not really related to the senses of 不 discussed on wiktionary, I thought that 1、不 is inherently related to 不 no matter the content in the articles and 2、"Wikipedia has an article on: 不" was a factual statement. I agree with your reservations and was hesitant to add the link, but for the two reasons stated above, I added it anyway. I'm not really too concerned either way; if you don't like some of the other zh-wp's I added, let me know. I will try to follow whatever established pattern or policy on relevance that we have. Also, let me know what you think of the pics I added. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:12, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

It's not related to any of the senses on the page though... If I see a link on Wiktionary saying "Chinese Wikipedia: 不", I might expect something on negative particles, not a South African song. IMO, it looks silly. —Suzukaze-c 00:18, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
The point of the Wikipedia links is to provide a source for encyclopedic information that doesn't belong in a dictionary. If the Wikipedia article doesn't elaborate on what the definitions refer to, it shouldn't be linked to from the entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:54, 2 September 2018 (UTC)
I understand your points completely. I agree the link looked silly. I see now that a link to a wikipedia article is only appropriate if the wikipedia article being linked 'elaborates on what the wiktionary definitions refer to'. I will only add these links if there is a connection between the wiktionary definitions and the content of the wikipedia article. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:17, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

What was simplified? : 濫|f=臣|t=〢 versus 濫|f=監|t=监Edit

Concerning [7], I believe that only the part(s) which were simplified should be included in the 'f=|t=' part of '{{Han simp|'. The actual simplification that took place in is exactly identical to the simplification that took place in . 监 is currently written as : 'Han simp|監|f=臣|t=〢' Therefore, I believe 滥 should also be written as '濫|f=臣|t=〢' --Geographyinitiative (talk) 02:13, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: I think that'd be a surface analysis of the simplification. I don't think 臣 → 〢 happened independently in both characters, but it first was simplified in 監 and was later applied to other characters. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:30, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung: I agree- it is a surface analysis. But that's what I'm trying to do: I want to tell you exactly what was simplified in this character. I think that if you want to try to inform readers about the patterns behind the 類推 simplification that were involved in making of , it should be written as 濫|f=臣|t=〢, see 监 or 濫|f=臣|t=〢, see 览 or maybe 濫|f=臣|t=〢 see 〢 (if there were an explanation of the 臣-〢 類推 on that page). --Geographyinitiative (talk) 03:42, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: Surface analyses would not be the "glyph origin" then... it's just pointing out the differences, which the reader can probably do themselves. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:50, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
@Geographyinitiative: Okay, I understand your point here. I looked at a copy of the 1964 简化总表 and 滥 appears under 监 in the 应用第二表所列简化字和简化偏旁得出来的简化字. In the future, when I do simplified forms, I will use this as my guide to tell what was simplified to what. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 04:36, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

扒頭Edit

I have often encountered the sentiment that 'place names are never in qingsheng', but I just don't know if it's true. No need to change 扒頭 one way or the other; I just don't believe that 'place names are never in qingsheng' is a proven fact of Mandarin. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:16, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Searching for a character by the character's componentsEdit

check the setion "consists of" in this link. --Backinstadiums (talk) 20:55, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

A bit crude, but you can try:

Wyang (talk) 21:18, 16 October 2018 (UTC)