User talk:Benwing2/uk-nouns-m

@Atitarev This is my page so far of notes on Ukrainian nouns. I'd appreciate any help you can give, e.g. to answer the questions on the page and add more nouns of different accent patterns. Benwing2 (talk) 05:51, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I have tried to answer some questions. I have been adding new noun entries with inflections, native Slavic words have more variety in patterns. Here's another little grammar resource in Ukrainian: http://www.pravopys.net/ (not easy to use, the back button doesn't work). It describes the four declension types under "Іменник" (noun). Also in Ukrainian_grammar#Nouns. Very little on stress patterns, unfortunately. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 10:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev I am closer to understanding how nouns work. Thank you for sending me the file with accent patterns for Ukrainian; it's amazing how complex the nouns are. Note, you can find words categorized according to the system described in that file here: http://www.mova.info/grmasl.aspx. Unfortunately the noun declensions listed here often disagree with the declensions in Slovozmina; I've decided for now to stick with Slovozmina when there is a disagreement. Benwing2 (talk) 22:53, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: You're welcome, thank YOU for the efforts. You've already completed and enhanced a few most complex inflections, like Russian and Arabic. I'm sure you can cope with Ukrainian, if you don't lose your motivation over time. I will be glad to help you where I can. Belarusian inflections are a little simpler than Ukrainian but more complex than Russian but less grammatical material available. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:18, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev (e/c) Another complexity for nouns is the count forms used with два, три, чоти́ри and оби́два. These are listed specially in mova.info, but not in Slovozmina. The way it's described in the Routledge grammar p. 207 is that you combine the stress of the genitive singular with the ending of the nominative plural. Hence for брат, gen sg. бра́та, nom pl. брати́, you merge the latter two to get два бра́ти "two brothers". Nouns in -анин, -янин and -ин are exceptions in that they just use the genitive singular. There may be other exceptions but unfortunately the page describing them is missing in the copy of the grammar that I have. Benwing2 (talk) 23:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

First automatic declension version up

@Atitarev I have the first version of my automatic noun declension module up. It still has a lot of problems, e.g. so far it only supports hard masculine nouns, and not yet nouns ending in a velar (к, г, х). But within this restriction it supports a lot of variants, including reducible nouns, nouns with alternations between і and о/е, all accent patterns, overrides of individual forms (e.g. the common '-у' ending for genitives) including unusual stress patterns, nouns in -ин that disappears in the plural, special stems, alternative stress patterns, etc. You can see some of the syntax for specifying these things on this page. If it's confusing let me know and I'll explain. It will all be documented soon enough. The hard part of all of this is not so much writing the module as figuring out all the different patterns and in particular which endings are normal in which circumstances. Ukrainian can have different endings, esp. in the locative and vocative singular, depending on all sorts of weird circumstances: whether the stem ends in a velar, whether the noun is reducible, whether the noun is singular-only, etc. Benwing2 (talk) 06:32, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thank you. I saw your work. It's great, especially considering how complex and unpredictable the noun inflection is. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:45, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev I now have hard and soft masculine nouns supported as well as footnotes (similar to the way they're done in Bulgarian noun declensions; you can see examples in User:Benwing2/uk-nouns in вік and пе́рстень) and title-bar annotations similar to Russian noun declensions. When I finish the remaining masculine types (semisoft and й) I will probably "release" this version. My eventual intent is to create a script to automatically convert most manual Ukrainian noun declensions into automated ones; or rather, I already have a script to do this for Russian, and I'll adapt it for Ukrainian. Basically, it figures out the likely declension params and then compares the forms that would be generated to the actual ones to make sure they're the same. Benwing2 (talk) 03:22, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev At this point I have support for all masculines, feminines and neuters except the following:

1. Third-declension feminines (ending in -ь or a consonant).
2. Fourth-declension neuters (ending in -я).
3. Adjectival nouns.
4. Plurale tantum nouns.

I will probably push this module live tomorrow, as soon as I finish writing up documentation on how it works. Benwing2 (talk) 04:54, 10 June 2020 (UTC)