BajookThug

Northern Kurdish

Hi. Thanks for working in Northern Kurdish. Can you check some of the entries in Category:Tbot entries (Northern Kurdish)? They were made by a robot over 11 years ago Wubble You (talk) 21:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Idk how to reply properly on this but sure thing, I'll work on itBigballlover69 (talk) 22:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Bigballlover69 To reply to a message, please start with : (a colon, which adds an indent) followed by {{ping|USERNAME}} followed by your message and then sign off with ~~~~, which will add your signature and ping the requested user. If you need any help, let me know :)
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 21:45, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 Alright I think I got it now, thanks! Bigballlover69 (talk) 23:11, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

@Bigballlover69 Over an out 😉. Also, I hope you got my other message about the Punjabi lemmas.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 23:21, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Punjabi lemmas

Hi @Bigballlover69! I hope you're well! I'm really happy to see another active Punjabi user!

I've seen that you've been contributing to a lot of Punjabi/Gurmukhi lemmas, and found repetitive mistakes that I wanted to point out:

1. Please ensure that if you are to add the IPA words of words, that they are correct. I've had to correct or remove a number of pronunciation headings because they contained errors. I am purposely not adding the IPA, as Punjabi pronunciation often contains the schwa and tonal sounds which can be tricky to correctly identify. I will, hopefully, soon create a Module:pa-IPA for this so we don't have to do the hard work :)

2. When creating new Shahmukhi pages, please ensure that diacritics are not included in the title page, as they are not normally written and it can be tricky for users to search such words. I know they can happen accidentally a lot of the times, and one might not notice, as it happened with سِر, which I will mark as requested for deletion.

3. Please include the nuqta in Gurmukhi lemmas which are derived from Perso-Arabic words. Words without the Nuqta, are nuqtaless forms of the word, and should be identified as such.

4. When transliterating ਣ into shahmukhi, please refrain from using ݨ, as it is not widely accepted, as normally ن would be used, and likewise ࣇ with for ਲ਼. This was a mistake on my part for spreading it as such.

I hope you won't mind me giving this feedback. I just like to ensure that the information is correct and accessible. Thanks!
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 21:36, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey @Taimoorahmed11 thanks for this info, especially the Shahmukhi part as I'm still learning it from my grandfather but got it to a good enough level so far, I'll keep this in mind for my next entries. Can't wait for that Module:pa-IPA, cuz it'll make adding entries so much easier! Do you have a guess for how long it will take until it's made? Cuz I'm really excited for it :)) Bigballlover69 (talk) 23:25, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

@Bigballlover69 I'm happy to hear that! I too also had to learn Gurmukhi as well as Devanagari, but I've got to grips with it now. We definitely need more users to contribute to Punjabi and other South Asian languages, so I was happy to see you.

Also I will start to make that module as soon as I'm done with module:pa-Arab-translit (for Shahmukhi transliteration, as it was messed up previously), but I'm not sure how long it will take.

It might take month or two, especially since I need to properly figure out the IPA for Punjabi lemmas, like I said including taking into consideration the tonal sounds and schwas, as well as the various Punjabi dialects and then figure out how to make it work with both Gurmukhi and Shahmukhi.

I might start with Gurmukhi only first and then gradually introduce Shahmukhi, as it's probably easier since there is more research on tonal sounds in the Gurmukhi script.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 23:52, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11 Sounds good can't wait for it to come out! I wish you luck on the pa-IPA module as I've heard coding can be a nightmare sometimes lol.

I agree about needing more users on Punjabi and other South Asian languages as more entries in those languages would make Wiktionary a good learning resource for those languages. Bigballlover69 (talk) 01:18, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Bigballlover69 Tell me about it! But thankfully, it's a bit easier on Wiktionary than traditional programming since the framework is already there, but it will be the variety of dialects and ways of pronunciation across Pakistan and India, that will probably be a bit of a headache, to display.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 03:18, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11: Regarding No. 2, if an entry needs to be speedily deleted as defined at

WT:Page_deletion_guidelines#What_to_delete_and_what_to_keep

without a discussion, please use {{d}} instead of {{rfd}}.

@Kutchkutch Thanks! I keep forgetting the template.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 02:53, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Regarding, No. 4, I wasn’t aware that the status of ݨ had changed until reading this. I had been spreading it in my edits until now. Kutchkutch (talk) 02:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch Yes, and this is solely my fault. When I first started editing on Wiktionary, I started using the letter, despite it not being used at all or very rarely - at least today (I believe there have been times where these letters have been used but not widely), and since there are hardly any Shahmukhi Punjabi editors, other users just agreed and followed me.

If a lemma contains this letter, it will be the alternative form of another lemma but not the widely used/proper way of writing it.

In Shahmukhi Punjabi textbooks (example), the alphabet used is the same as the Urdu alphabet, hence why I refrain from using the letter, as well ࣇ (which I'm surprised was approved by Unicode when in fact no Punjabi keyboard includes the character, as it won't be understood, or even used tbh. I only use it for transliterating Gurmukhi letters ਲ਼ and ਣ, or Devanagari ण and ळ.

That being said, even though spelling may be standardised, the Shahmukhi Alphabet isn't, so it's unclear what letters are part of the Shahmukhi Alphabet. There is only one Punjabi Shahmukhi dictionary that has been recently released and has been released in volumes, and available only in the form of physical books. Patiala University do include Shahmukhi terms, but I am pretty sure that the terms are influenced by Gurmukhi terms and the etymology of the words, and I confirmed it from them that they don't plan on using ݨ or ࣇ.
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 03:05, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Taimoorahmed11: Using {{l}}, {{m}}, etc with ݨ and ࣇ now automatically remove ARABIC SMALL HIGH TAH U ◌ؕ U+0615. So, redirects such as پاݨی and کھاݨا may not be needed. Perhaps ݨ and ࣇ can go in the |head= parameter as at کھانا (khānā) with head=کھاݨا. Kutchkutch (talk) 13:07, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kutchkutch: That's great, thanks! Yes that's what I had been doing. Add the rare letters in the headers rather than the page title!
-Taimoor Ahmed^{(گل بات؟)} 17:20, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

Heading levels when there are multiple etymologies

Hi, it seems you're unclear with this. When there are multiple etymologies, the entry is divided by etymologies and the part of speech, declension, etc. are subsections of it. Example:

==Punjabi==

===Pronunciation===
* {{IPA|pa|…}}

===Etymology 1===

====Noun====
{{pa-noun}}

#

=====Declension=====
{{pa-noun-m-c}}

===Etymology 2===

====Verb====
{{pa-verb}}

#

=====Conjugation=====
{{pa-conj}}

===Further reading===
* {{R:pa:Punjabi University}}

Usually, bots such as WingerBot (talk • contribs) fix such formatting errors. Hope that makes it clear! —Svārtava ^{[t•c•u•r]} 04:28, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah I didn't know that, my bad Bigballlover69 (talk) 12:14, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Unacceptable username

Hello. I don't want to have to block you over your username, but it does not meet our username policies. I see that you have already been blocked over at Wikipedia for the same reason. Please request a change of username to something less explicitly vulgar so that you can continue editing Wikimedia wikis. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:39, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Not cool bro, literally 1984 but whatever. I've requested a new username before and nothing happened but I'll do it again. :)))))) Bigballlover69 (talk) 01:01, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

IPA/translit

BajookThug, a few thoughts on the editing over the last day or so:

1. Punjabi does not have the Open back unrounded vowel /ɑː/, it is obviously too far back in the mouth. Someone inexperienced in IPA began this convention some years ago on Wikipedia and it's spread here. The open central unrounded vowel /äː/ is both closer to the Punjabi vowel ā, and balances Punjabi's symmetrical vowel system. /ɑː/ knocks it off balance because it's clearly not the correct vowel.
2. I was the one who created the convention for using the superscript schwa ( ᵊ ) as a placeholder when I rewrote the Gurmukhi page a few years ago. It has also spread here on Wiktionary. However, I think that /ə̆/ with the use of a breve (symbolizing shortening in the IPA) is a better representative of the unstressed schwa both between consonants and word-finally, upon further research and the suggestion of others. It is certainly more that a mid-central vowel release, particularly in careful speech. I would get @Taimoor Ahmed's opinion on this, but not sure what's up with his account rn.
   1. Punjabi does not drop schwas, except maybe in a few specific conditions word-medially. For example, your entry on the proper name ਬਸੰਤ now gives the impression that it is basant, though basanta is also a bit misleading, so basantă would be the best fit. I would argue that the ă becomes full-length a (not ā) when calling, singing or carefully saying the name ਬਸੰਤ, hence "basantaaaa!" and not "basaaaanta!" So it is a full but shortened vowel /ə̆/ under normal circumstances, and not a mere epenthetic release /ᵊ/.
3. ੌ is realized as a diphthong /əu/ alongside /ɔː/, and ੈ as /əi/ alongside /ɛː/, particularly in ṭheṭh/rural speech, and arguably more correct historically as well. You even monophthongized what is clearly a diphthong at ਘਟਾਉਣਾ, for example.
4. Punjabi geminates consonants following stressed vowels particularly in the penultimate syllable, hence ṭoppī instead of ṭopī, haukkā instead of haukā, etc. This is documented per Shackle 2007 and Masica 1993, among other sources. Though not typically indicated in Gurmukhi it is implicit, and should be accounted for in the IPA and transliterations.
5. Again, probably not a good idea to write such distasteful example sentences like you did on ਬਲਾਤਕਾਰ and ਨੀਗਰੋ, using one particular personal name, on what is an educational resource. Sapedder (talk) 13:30, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

@Sapedder Alright I guess I'm fine with all of those except for maybe number 3. We should use the sounds that are used more in the standard language. We can include those sounds but we should probably put it second next to the standard pronunciation. Or maybe we could use {{a|Standard Punabi, for the pronunciation used in standard speech. And for ਘਟਾਉਣਾ, ਾ + ਉ makes the sound ɔː. Also for 2.1 I have heard schwa's being dropped a lot in Punjabi speech, so I guess it's probably a dialectal thing. Btw on some of the IPA entries you redid you removed dots that showed hyphenation, for some reason, and also I'm pretty sure you can't put IPA in the "Alternative Forms" section, as I've seen you do this a couple of times. Another problem with your edits I've seen is that you seem to edit usage examples and remove words that don't seem like "pure" Punjabi to you. Like on ਖੇਡਣਾ you replaced ਦੋਸਤ with ਮਿੱਤਰ, which makes no sense to do. BajookThug (talk) 16:14, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Good to see we seem to agree on most of the points. I hope to see the usage of /äː/ over /ɑː/, /ə̆/ over /ᵊ/, ă in transliterations, and the toppī/haukkā thing normalized going forward.

• Regarding hyphenation dots, I don't have an opinion either way. I don't thing Punjabi has any formal conventions regarding hyphenation, or that figuring out where to hyphenate is especially tricky with Gurmukhi, but dot away I suppose.
• Regarding IPA in the Alternative Forms section, I have not seen any such rule, but noted.
• Regarding ੌ and ੈ, seeing as we disagree which is standard anyway, I don't think we need a separate template for /əu/ and /ɔː/ entries. It's unnecessary as it's more of a difference in sociolect than in dialect imo, as urban/NRI/middle class speech tends to have more clipped word endings, and more monophthongs. I say we stick to one template, ex. IPA|pa|/ɦɔː.mɛ̃ː/|/ɦəu.məĩː/. We can put the monophthongized entry first here if you like.

• But I would disagree on ਘਟਾਉਣਾ, and this I would be firm on. ਾ + ਉ clearly yields /aʊ/ and this is a grammatical issue here, not just a noun. Conflating both /əu/ and /aʊ/ with /ɔː/ would result in a complete lack of precision, and is a bridge too far for me. I'm okay with including both /ɔː/ (first) and /əu/ for the ੌ value, but not both /aʊ/ and /ɔː/ for ਾ + ਉ. Too much precision would be sacrificed, which should be a primary concern for a dictionary.

• I would admit to tending to prioritize Punjabi tadbhavas whenever possible. I think we are all here for the preservation of Punjabi vocabulary, so I don't think that's too outlandish. I don't think I am particularly strict about it though, as I could have replaced "ਕਿਤਾਬ" with "ਪੋਥੀ" in the "ਪੜ੍ਹਨਾ" page but didn't (as I think ਕਿਤਾਬ is more suitable), and I replaced one English word ("ਮੈਕਡੋਨਾਲਡਸ") with another ("ਸਕੂਲੇ") on the "ਕੰਮ" page. ਦੋਸਤ/ਮਿੱਤਰ is like the only instance of that, and the uniquely Punjabi ਮਿੱਤਰ is at least as common if not more so, alongside other words like ਮਿੱਤ, ਸੱਜਣ, etc., so in such a case I don't see why we have to settle for Perso-Arabic/Hindi/English/Sanskrit loanwords when perfectly suitable, natural, native words exist imo. This is mostly a cosmetic issue though. Sapedder (talk) 01:51, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

@Sapedder Alr cool, I don't really understand replacing ਮੈਕਡੋਨਾਲਡਸ with ਸਕੂਲੇ as they're both English words anyways but whatever it doesn't really matter, as for the part about using Perso-Arabic/Hindi/English/Sanskrit loanwords it really depends on which word is used more in "standard" speech, while I agree people should be using more pure Punjabi words, it'd kinda be like teaching English learners to say "rainshade" instead of "umbrella", while one is native English the latter is used more in speech. But it's up to you tbh, I am kinda curious to what the native Punjabi words are. In my future edits I'll use the IPA you recommend. BajookThug (talk) 03:44, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. As I said I'm not super strict when it comes to loanwords and don't mind their presence per se, but for most of them Punjabi has a native counterpart that has fallen by the wayside, often not too long ago. I think it would be good to get them back out there whenever possible, and this is a good platform for it. Sapedder (talk) 00:12, 7 March 2022 (UTC)