Noktonissian

Northern Thai cognate of เกิด

You added the Northern Thai cognate of เกิด (gə̀ət) as ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ, which I think is a merely a mistake for ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨯ, which I have substituted for it. Do you, however, contend that ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ occurs in that sense? --RichardW57 (talk) 17:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

It's not a mistake. ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ is an alternative spelling of the word, more accepted traditionally. This spelling is not recorded in MFL?? (I don't have a copy of MFL). By the way, it appears in the thesis of Prof. Naiyana Prongthura (here, on page 223) as well as the publications by The Wang Sing Kham Press, such as English Laos Dictionary - Collins DG (1906), on page, 21 it's written "Born v. ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ​ ᨷᩢ᩠ᨦᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ​ ᨷᩕᩈᩪᨲ". And from my experiences of reading old manuscripts, I choose ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ over ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨯ because ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ appears more often in old manuscripts, implying it's more accepted traditionally. Noktonissian (talk) 17:59, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

By the way, ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨯ and ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ are both correct. They are just the alternatives of each other. If you don't mind, you can add ᨠᩮᩥ᩠ᨭ as the alternative spelling. Noktonissian (talk) 18:06, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

MFL is a great book, but it sometimes disregards many traditional or alternative spellings and favors the refined or the reformed one (one aim of MFL is to standardize the spelling). For the reference of the traditional spelling often missing form MFL, I would recommend:

• English Laos Dictionary by Collins DG published in 1906 (when the script was still widely written by people). I own a pdf file of this book. It was digitized and released by Chiang Mai University years ago.
• The thesis of Prof. Naiyana Prongthura, there is a full list of the lexicons taken from the inscription stones dated from the 13th to the 19th century.
• The dictionary of northern Thai words appearing in palm-leaf manuscripts, which also record a traditional spelling. Here.
• A newly published book "อักขรวิธีพิเศษ ในเอกสารโบราณของไท" by Prof. Renu Wichasilp. It contains all the "special" spellings in Tai Tham Lanna, Fakkham, Tai Tham Kheun, Lue, and also Shan.

Noktonissian (talk) 18:55, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad I asked!

No, it's in neither the MFL nor the NTDPLM - at least:

1. Not where one would expect it given their semi-alphabetical orderings; nor
2. in the list of words I manually transcribed.

I have Revision 1 of the MFL, not be confused with the first issue. (Peter Constable and I had some confused conversations because of that!) I have noticed that the MFL has poor coverage of contractions, and its ordering is bad enough that several words appear in two places several pages apart. It's one dictionary for which I'm glad to have made an index of words! It's also missing Pali loans where the final -a has been shed. At least I have all its pages - there are several pages in the NTDPLM of which I have 0 or 2 copies, but I didn't unseal my copy until I got back to England.

Thanks for the links.

I'll add the spelling you added as a red link, and look to add it from your sources later.

Would you be interested in adding your self to the Wiktionary Northern Thai working group for {{wgping}} at Module:workgroup_ping/data? RichardW57 (talk) 23:17, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Oh, thank you very much. Yes sure, I'll add my name to the list. Noktonissian (talk) 14:32, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Do you know of any easy way I can get hold of Collins' dictionary? There may be some in copyright matter that's keeping the reprints off the Internet. --RichardW57m (talk) 15:28, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

The 1906 version is already in the public domain in Thailand but the digitized version, if I'm not wrong, can be obtained from the Chiang Mai University's library and not available on the Internet (but it can be shared freely). I got the file from my friend along with other old publications from the Wang Sing Kham Press (mostly from late 1890s to early 1900s). I can give you a downloadable link from my private Dropbox (via the Email this user function) for you to download the digitized files. Noktonissian (talk) 16:41, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation of ᩉᩮ᩠ᨲᩩ

How sure are you of the pronunciation of Northern Thai ᩉᩮ᩠ᨲᩩ? I think it's spelling implies a single syllable, but I haven't found a book telling me so, and it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that it's just saving space. I have a similar question for the ending -ᩣ᩠ᨲᩥ - I think the final vowel is (or was) silent. As it is, I've been greeted with disbelief when I point out that such spellings even exist. What of ᨵᩤ᩠ᨲᩩ? That word makes it into the MFL as a simplex. --RichardW57m (talk) 15:26, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

As a native speaker, I can confirm that ᩉᩮ᩠ᨲᩩ can only be pronounced as /he:t/ (like​ ᩉᩮ᩠ᨲ)​. The final vowel sign is silent for the word like this. In fact, the Sara UU sign as the third stack can be omitted but the preferred form is the one with the vowel. It's the same for -ᩣ᩠ᨲᩥ that the Sara I sign above can be omitted. But for the case of -ᩣ᩠ᨲᩥ , the preferred form is the one without Sara I sign like ᨩᩣ᩠ᨲ​​ rather than ᨩᩣ᩠ᨲᩥ. Some people might even think ᨩᩣ᩠ᨲᩥ is a misspelling because some school of thought suggests that it's the rule to omit the Sara I for the word like this. Besides, for the word like ᨻ᩠ᨿᩣ᩠ᨵᩥ​, dictionaries may suggest that it's pronounced /pia.thi/, but in the spoken language of today, the word is always pronounced /pha.jat/ more like ᨹᨿᩣ᩠ᨯ or ᨹ᩠ᨿᩣ᩠ᨯ. I've never heard anyone in my life pronounce it as /pia.thi/. I think in MFL and Rajabhat's dictionry may say that it's pronounced /pia.thi/. But a quick search in NTDPLM tells me that the book suggest ᨻ᩠ᨿᩣ᩠ᨵᩥ​ is pronounced /pha.jat/ (page 316). In some reference, like the Lanna Disease Dictionary says that ᨻ᩠ᨿᩣᨵᩥ​ is pronounced /pia.thi/ while ᨻ᩠ᨿᩣ᩠ᨵ​ is pronounced /pha.jat/ (page 78). Lastly, for ᨵᩤ᩠ᨲᩩ , it's always pronounced like ᨵᩣ᩠ᨲ​. Noktonissian (talk) 17:39, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. --RichardW57 (talk) 07:11, 21 July 2023 (UTC)